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Sukhmani Sahib Astpadi 4 Sabad 1 / ਸੁਖਮਨੀ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਅਸਟਪਦੀ ੪ ਸਬਦ ੧

Discussion in 'Sukhmani Sahib' started by Ambarsaria, Jan 3, 2012.

  1. Ambarsaria

    Ambarsaria Canada
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    ਸਲੋਕੁ
    Salok.

    Salok



    ਨਿਰਗੁਨੀਆਰ ਇਆਨਿਆ ਸੋ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਸਦਾ ਸਮਾਲਿ ਜਿਨਿ ਕੀਆ ਤਿਸੁ ਚੀਤਿ ਰਖੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਨਿਬਹੀ ਨਾਲਿ ੧॥
    Nirgunī▫ār i▫āni▫ā so parabẖ saḏā samāl. Jin kī▫ā ṯis cẖīṯ rakẖ Nānak nibhī nāl. ||1||

    The virtue-less and not knowing one, remember the creator always. Remember the one who created, Guru Nanak, as such will sustain throughout.



    ਅਸਟਪਦੀ
    Asatpaḏī.

    Eight stanzas hymn

    ਰਮਈਆ ਕੇ ਗੁਨ ਚੇਤਿ ਪਰਾਨੀ ਕਵਨ ਮੂਲ ਤੇ ਕਵਨ ਦ੍ਰਿਸਟਾਨੀ
    Rama▫ī▫ā ke gun cẖeṯ parānī. Kavan mūl ṯe kavan ḏaristānī.

    People, remember the virtues of the creator. What is the origin and what is the persona.

    ਜਿਨਿ ਤੂੰ ਸਾਜਿ ਸਵਾਰਿ ਸੀਗਾਰਿਆ ਗਰਭ ਅਗਨਿ ਮਹਿ ਜਿਨਹਿ ਉਬਾਰਿਆ
    Jin ṯūʼn sāj savār sīgāri▫ā. Garabẖ agan mėh jinėh ubāri▫ā.

    One who created, enhanced and personified you. In the warmth of the womb such protected you.

    ਬਾਰ ਬਿਵਸਥਾ ਤੁਝਹਿ ਪਿਆਰੈ ਦੂਧ ਭਰਿ ਜੋਬਨ ਭੋਜਨ ਸੁਖ ਸੂਧ
    Bār bivasthā ṯujẖėh pi▫ārai ḏūḏẖ. Bẖar joban bẖojan sukẖ sūḏẖ.

    In childhood you were provided milk to nurse on. In high youthful times food, comforts and knowledge came.

    ਬਿਰਧਿ ਭਇਆ ਊਪਰਿ ਸਾਕ ਸੈਨ ਮੁਖਿ ਅਪਿਆਉ ਬੈਠ ਕਉ ਦੈਨ
    Biraḏẖ bẖa▫i▫ā ūpar sāk sain. Mukẖ api▫ā▫o baiṯẖ ka▫o ḏain.

    As you grow old, friends and family come about to serve. You are fed as you sit and relax.

    ਇਹੁ ਨਿਰਗੁਨੁ ਗੁਨੁ ਕਛੂ ਬੂਝੈ ਬਖਸਿ ਲੇਹੁ ਤਉ ਨਾਨਕ ਸੀਝੈ ੧॥
    Ih nirgun gun kacẖẖū na būjẖai. Bakẖas leho ṯa▫o Nānak sījẖai. ||1||

    Such virtue less though understands no virtues. Guru Nanak, such only gets salvation through mercy.

    Please note all errors are mine and I stand corrected.

    Sat Sri Akal.
     
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  3. ravneet_sb

    ravneet_sb India
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  4. Ambarsaria

    Ambarsaria Canada
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    ravneet_sb ji thanks for your comment.

    There are two expressions,


    1. ਨਿਰਗੁਨੀਆਰ/ Nirgunī▫ār

    Essence: The word is used in reference. Guru ji always compare the infinite virtues of the creator with mortals. Everything has virtues. But in terms of comparative statement against a creator, we are more or less zero with much to recognize. Hence the translation as



    2. ਇਆਨਿਆ/i▫āni▫ā
    Essence: The word is used in reference. Guru ji always state how much as a matter of fact infinite there is to know, and we will never know all. So in a sense with how much to know we are just like children, innocent not knowing. A common sentence comes to mind which I heard used for children when they don't appreciate or make a mistake,

    ਇਹ ਨਿਆਨਾ/ਨਿਆਨੀ ਇਹਨੂੰ ਕੀ ਸਮਝ / Is a child what could he/she understand
    ਇਹ ਨਿਆਨਾ/ਨਿਆਨੀ ਇਹਨੂੰ ਕੀ ਪਤਾ / Is a child what could he/she know
    I am open to suggestion if a better wording is more appropriate.

    Sat Sri Akal.
     
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  5. ravneet_sb

    ravneet_sb India
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    Sat Sri Akaal,

    "Niana" "Iaana" "Siana" though word represents three mind stages

    Physical stages of development are
    "Childhood" "Adolescence" and "Old" age,
    but beside the physical progression of life,

    and mind stages are
    "Niaana" "Iaana" "Siaana"

    "GURU's BANI"
    "Niaana" can be controlled

    At second stage life forces empower human mind
    There are biochemical changes, caused by nature.
    Having emotional imbalance.

    This stage prolongs one may appear "Siana" as old age has taken over
    But if one has not attained "Wisdom"
    One is still treated as "Iaana"

    "Adolescence" prolongs in human mind.

    But the mind states are irrespective of physical states.

    "GURU's BANI" has referred to "Iaana" state,
    where maximum of emotional imbalance happens in one's life
    without learning of "GURU's BANI"


    It's written the way it comes.

    Thought can be interacted/commented/rejected or accepted ,

    as interpretations are not as read or as listened from outside,
    and are from the inner listening.


    came as realization as reflections from "GURU's BANI".


    Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa
    Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh
     
    #4 ravneet_sb, Jan 4, 2012
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2012
  6. Ambarsaria

    Ambarsaria Canada
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    ravneet_sb ji thanks for your comment.

    Sometimes it is good to answer to help people. I was looking for a specific answer/response to the following,

    You don't have to, but sometimes it helps. mundahug

    Sat Sri Akal.
     
    #5 Ambarsaria, Jan 4, 2012
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2012
  7. Taranjeet singh

    Taranjeet singh India
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    Dear Ambarsaria Ji,
    Ravneet ji would provide his feed back. I do have small suggestion to make. We have access to translations on internet. Your work would be very useful for me if one full sentence is written against the line that is being interpreted else it is left open for me to add something to that you have stated.
    Bani is already in metaphors and your interpretation further adds to the ornamental value and that is really nice and is appreciated. Your posts would become very useful for me if you could write in full sentences so that the scope of presumption/interjection is reduced.
    It is only a suggestion to make it interactive.

    Hope you will forgive me if I have transgressed the permitted terrain.

    Regards!
     
  8. Ambarsaria

    Ambarsaria Canada
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    Veer Taranjeet Singh ji thanks for your comments.
    Your suggestion(s) are always welcome.

    To fully understand I would appreciate if you can do the following into what you are suggesting. Specifically from a style perspective.



    Veer SGGS is forever a gift of our Guru ji's and others given for free. No one has exclusivity or control of the terrain and least me.

    The key purpose of posting pauri/sabad structure was to allow for interaction as larger pieces there is a tendency to just read and not comment. It has worked for 3 or 4 sabdas but people are too scared to say or comment in case they say something wrong. I have never met a student that does not make a mistake and I am student like all others. So please make comments or critique as nothing is mine in terms of SGGS or anything else.

    Sat Sri Akal.
     
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  9. Taranjeet singh

    Taranjeet singh India
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    Dear Sir,
    I would have always worked backwards i.e to interpret the Pads of Astpadi first and then work backward to assimilate the Slok so that it fits in with most of the the Pads if not with all . Yes, I would have written more than what is being written.
    Hope you appreciate this.

    Given below are few possible interpretations of the slok of Astpadi-4. One can think of some other possible alternatives. Also kindly remember line by line translation is, sometimes, not possible. However, if you intend to maintain this format you may have to write more that that you usually do.

    Slok
    Nirgunee-aar i-aani-aa so prabh sada samaal.
    Jin kee-aa tis cheet rakh Guru Nanak nibhee naal. 1.



    I would have selected anyone of the following interpretation to see that works well with most of Pads of this astpadi.

    1. Guru Sahib admonishes that our worldly wisdom shall not be of avail for seeking salvation. The one who has created us has created for a limited objective i.e. to attain salvation in this precious life that has been gifted and Oh! my foolish mind, always keep Him in mind and remember Him to attain the objective.

    2. Oh my foolish and restless mind! why have you forgotten the one who has blessed you with all that you need? Remember Him always and be at peace and attain that you have come here for.

    3. Oh my dear foolish friend! Remember Him always who has molded you and blessed you with all that thee need and this way you will swim across peacefully.
    The line that you have asked for

    Ih nirgun gun kachhū na būjhai. Baksas leho ao Nānak sījhai.

    1. Thus stubborn mind is obstinate and virtue less And Oh my beloved Satguru! forgive me and bless me that I can understand a bit

    2. Help me out as I am virtue less and do not know myself that is good for me .

    Here again one may have to see what the preceding and succeeding lines state
    Hope I could convey something. Ignore this if it is useless.

    Regards
     
  10. ravneet_sb

    ravneet_sb India
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    Sat Sri Akaal,

    Virtues or Karam,

    Let bring our mind focus on what virtues "GURU's BANI" says

    "Virtue's" or "Karam"

    What "Virute's" or "Karam" means

    One perform "Karam" at three levels

    Astral Level "Thought" as "Karam"
    Subtle Level "Speech" as "Karam"
    Physical Level "Action" as "Karam"

    "GURU's BANI" guides us to be intutively wise.

    Further "Thought" Karam has

    "Concious" thought as "Karam" or "Active Mind Virtues"
    "Subconcious" thought as "Karam"
    "Unconcious" thought as "Karam" or "Previous Karam" or "Poorab Karam" or "Vitues by Passive Mind"

    Our Passive or "Unconcious Mind" belongs to "Animal Kingdom" or "Hind Brain" it contains
    (SEX, FOOD, INSECURITY) and SUBCONCIOUS MIND (RELATION/EGO)

    Making your learning (GURU's BANI) penetrate to "Hind Brain" which contains animal instincts is not easy
    for "Human Mind"

    It is difficult to understand function of "Hind Brain" and erase "Purab Karam"

    Understand and self tame animal inside

    and

    Make "GURU's BANI" imbibe in that plane of Mind.

    Understand

    Rest Virtue (Speech and Physical) is all automated, not in one's control

    Physical body is slave of "MIND"

    Mind is (Concious Subconcious Unconcious) (Active Brain Mamallian Brain and Hind Brain)

    Puran Karam or
    All "vitues" are controlled by "Mind"

    Without this awareness one perform's virtues

    Wahe Guru Ji Ka Khalsa
    Wahe Guru Ji Ki Fateh
     
  11. Ambarsaria

    Ambarsaria Canada
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    Taranjeet Singh ji, I will not make sloaks fit “pads”. They guide as they do and already fit with the pads. I would not be surprised if Guru ji would have done that construct from “pads” to “sloak” by self. For me all makes sense and stands on its own, each and every word as linked.

    Just to let you know the process I go through as it is iterative. I do translations by reviewing Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji directly, Bhai Manmohan Singh ji’s work and Prof. Sahib Singh ji’s work. Most of the time I almost look for word match without flowery expansions which I could do for a specific style (say Parcharik or teacher approach). I have taken the student approach.

    I go back and forth between various stanzas, the thrust of the “pads” and then the linking of all this with the sloak. I am not sure if it is coming through that way but that is how iteratively I am going through.


    Veer ji it is always possible. The issue is that it may leave people who read only a line to mis-read or incorrectly understand the core concepts.

    I do believe I have explained above that in order to create less jumble I am using minimum words.

    Taranjeet Singh ji this is a very humble translation but introduces concepts of your choosing as per the underlined part.

    Veer ji specific comments and appreciate if you can explain how have you introduced the extra concepts as underlined. There is no doubt that some will match and perhaps some may not in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji with what you say.

    The danger in this approach is you are taking liberties with the reader. Without specific references from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji to be given against each concept introduced, we end up at the twisted, great sounding and at times convincing but false language. Not every one has sincerity that you do so we need to keep a regimen of reasonable rigor with perhaps greater effort demand on the readers.

    I thank you but I wish pick up a nugget to introduce as that is also what I look for, I will continue to look for such in all posts.

    Sat Sri Akal.
     
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