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Discussion in 'Interfaith Dialogues' started by Vikram singh, Aug 7, 2010.
Hah Hah ..I think that's the most damning summary I have ever come across!
A real pity as the Bible is full of genuine wisdom and valuable teachings if you can get beyond the surface. And in some respects, there are a lot of similarities to Eastern philosophies
For example, "As ye sow so shall ye reap" is as good an explanation of Karma as you will get in any eastern philosophy
Unfortunately, there is so much cultural rubbish on the surface, the real wisdom is often obscured. The Quran is the same in this respect with dodgy passages relating to martyrs and virgins etc.
Problems occur when followers take everything literally...and there are so many other examples in addition to the ones you have highlighted above
I respect the Bible but will never accept it as the literal Word of God for this reason
Thanks for the post Vikram Singh you put alot of my thoughts there,the close mindedness of Christians believing "Jesus is the only way" in my opinion is counting for most of the hate against religions in the world,where as Sikhi completely respects all religions. That is why I Thank Satguru ji that I have been born in such a great Religion.
Here are a few:
Just random killing
Exodus 35:2 ? "2 For six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day shall be your holy day, a Sabbath of rest to the LORD. Whoever does any work on it must be put to death."
Psalms 137:8-9 - 8 O Daughter of Babylon, doomed to destruction, happy is he who repays you for what you have done to us 9 he who seizes your infants and dashes them against the rocks.
Gay man killing
Leviticus 20:13 ? "If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads."
Little kid killing
Hosea 13:16 - "16 The people of Samaria must bear their guilt, because they have rebelled against their God. They will fall by the sword; their little ones will be dashed to the ground, their pregnant women ripped open."
Clearly this God must be imaginary. No "perfect" and "good" God would be such a homicidal maniac.
Bible was written after Jesus
but DHAN SHRI GURU GRANTH SAHIB prepaired by Guru's
What the bible tells us can be interpreted in many ways. Let's look at MATTHEW 6: 22-23
The light of the body is the eye; if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light. But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness
It is obvious, "the eye" refers to the tisra til and the words "if thine eye be single," mean concentrated awareness within at the center between and at the back of the eyes. The words "if thine eye be evil" refer to a state of mental dispersion without and the result will certainly be darkness born of ignorance about the true and real values of life.
Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them that despitefully use you, and persecute you. MATTHEW 5:44
Please explain what is meant by this passage.animatedkhanda
ਨਿੰਦਉ ਨਿੰਦਉ ਮੋ ਕਉ ਲੋਗੁ ਨਿੰਦਉ ॥
nindho nindho mo ko log nindho ||
Slander me, slander me - go ahead, people, and slander me
ਨਿੰਦਾ ਜਨ ਕਉ ਖਰੀ ਪਿਆਰੀ ॥
nindhaa jan ko kharee piaaree ||
Slander is pleasing to the Lord's humble servant.
ਨਿੰਦਾ ਬਾਪੁ ਨਿੰਦਾ ਮਹਤਾਰੀ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
nindhaa baap nindhaa mehathaaree ||1|| rehaao ||
Slander is my father, slander is my mother. ||1||Pause||
ਨਿੰਦਾ ਹੋਇ ਤ ਬੈਕੁੰਠਿ ਜਾਈਐ ॥
nindhaa hoe th baikunth jaaeeai ||
If I am slandered, I go to heaven;
ਨਾਮੁ ਪਦਾਰਥੁ ਮਨਹਿ ਬਸਾਈਐ ॥
naam padhaarathh manehi basaaeeai ||
the wealth of the Naam, the Name of the Lord, abides within my mind.
ਰਿਦੈ ਸੁਧ ਜਉ ਨਿੰਦਾ ਹੋਇ ॥
ridhai sudhh jo nindhaa hoe ||
If my heart is pure, and I am slandered,
ਹਮਰੇ ਕਪਰੇ ਨਿੰਦਕੁ ਧੋਇ ॥੧॥
hamarae kaparae nindhak dhhoe ||1||
then the slanderer washes my clothes. ||1||
ਨਿੰਦਾ ਕਰੈ ਸੁ ਹਮਰਾ ਮੀਤੁ ॥
nindhaa karai s hamaraa meeth ||
One who slanders me is my friend;
ਨਿੰਦਕ ਮਾਹਿ ਹਮਾਰਾ ਚੀਤੁ ॥
nindhak maahi hamaaraa cheeth ||
the slanderer is in my thoughts.
ਨਿੰਦਕੁ ਸੋ ਜੋ ਨਿੰਦਾ ਹੋਰੈ ॥
nindhak so jo nindhaa horai ||
The slanderer is the one who prevents me from being slandered.
ਹਮਰਾ ਜੀਵਨੁ ਨਿੰਦਕੁ ਲੋਰੈ ॥੨॥
hamaraa jeevan nindhak lorai ||2||
The slanderer wishes me long life. ||2||
ਨਿੰਦਾ ਹਮਰੀ ਪ੍ਰੇਮ ਪਿਆਰੁ ॥
nindhaa hamaree praem piaar ||
I have love and affection for the slanderer.
ਨਿੰਦਾ ਹਮਰਾ ਕਰੈ ਉਧਾਰੁ ॥
nindhaa hamaraa karai oudhhaar ||
Slander is my salvation.
ਜਨ ਕਬੀਰ ਕਉ ਨਿੰਦਾ ਸਾਰੁ ॥
jan kabeer ko nindhaa saar ||
Slander is the best thing for servant Kabeer.
Some shared thoughts. Unique delivery.
If I trash someone, the rationale is obvious: In comparison I should appear better.
The metaphor ends here, but it goes without saying that I also trash someone out of a sense of insecurity of who or what I am. As a Guru-da-Sikh, with the priceless legacy of my Gurus, do I have any reason to feel insecure? I should say NOT.
Love has no enemies. How can Love have enemies?
Nirbhau, Nirvair- Sans fear, Sans enmity Ik Ong Kaar has no animosity against anyone.
A Sikh- a seeker, a learner can only seek and learn through the lenses of love.
So, as a Sikh I reject what Matthew wrote many many years after the crucifixion of Jesus in the above verse because Guru Nanak taught me through Mool Manter that the only way towards Sat- Truth is by having no fear, no rancor which in result breeds friends, not enemies.
This is a actual whole book in the bible its called "Job":
It is the story of Job when God and Satan were hanging out as if buddies when Satan decides that he could get Job to denounce God (with God's permission of course). So God and Satan both kill Job's whole family and ruin his whole life and cover him with painful boils, but Job still refuses to denounce God. So Satan finally gives up and they go back as buddies wherever. Job makes out good in the end but I am sure he would like to have his family back instead of losing them to some sick game between 2 entities that obviously have too much time on their hands with nothing to do. Anyone that wants to go to heaven to be with this God is delusional. You better watch out, he might rip your arms and legs off to see if you will swear when you are in pain.
Christians will argue that these quotes come from the Old Testament and that Jesus came to change all this with a New Testament of love and peace. Now the problem remains why then does Christianity attrack so many sado-maso perverts among the clergy.
Polpol Ji i agree with you the Christians will say those quotes are from the Old Testament and jesus came to get rid of all that old stuff in the New testament, but they seem to never agree those quotes are vile to say the least.From battering and killing babies in the OT to saying the kingdom is theirs reffering to children in the NT it seems the Angry Old Crazy God has cooled down dramaticaly lol. The the NT holds no validity without the OT.
I have read the bible a few times and it just does not add up for me. Having said that the only book i enjoyed reading from the OT was the book of "Proverbs".
The holy spirit thing i just do not buy into but everyone for themselves. Even after the death of jesus his own disciples started to get irratated waiting for his return, when there was no return things were said and written as they went along. That is the way i look at it but everyone has there own way of thinking.
Sorry i put it in a confusing way, Jesus died came back to life, ascended to heaven and his disciples were waiting for his return.
Ugsbay ji, I wanted to send you a thank you note but it dissapeared. You put it quite clearly. Now St. John really messed things up. Poor him, he was the youngest of the apostles and all the others died when he became old and very lonely seeing how things turned out. It must have been because of too much stress all along but he came up with a vision whereby Jesus had a big fight with Satan and threw him down on earth where he would reign for some time before the Apocalypse. So Jesus comes to save us and what does he do? He sends us Satan! Isn't that something.
What I like in the Bible is the parabols. The Apostles were simple people so Jesus would often use stories to get his message across but many times the apostles still could not understand and he would have to explain all over and that made him very impatient...I find that so funny.
Enter ye in at the strait gate . . . Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
There is a very similar verse of Kabir Sahib in SGGS Page 509
<table cellspacing="5" height="681" width="516"><tbody><tr><td>सलोकु ॥
</td></tr> <tr><td>ਕਬੀਰ ਮੁਕਤਿ ਦੁਆਰਾ ਸੰਕੁੜਾ ਰਾਈ ਦਸਵੈ ਭਾਇ ॥
कबीर मुकति दुआरा संकुड़ा राई दसवै भाइ ॥
Kabīr mukaṯ ḏu▫ārā sankuṛā rā▫ī ḏasvai bẖā▫e.
O Kabeer, the gate of liberation is narrow, less than one-tenth of a mustard seed.
</td></tr> <tr><td>ਮਨੁ ਤਉ ਮੈਗਲੁ ਹੋਇ ਰਹਾ ਨਿਕਸਿਆ ਕਿਉ ਕਰਿ ਜਾਇ ॥
मनु तउ मैगलु होइ रहा निकसिआ किउ करि जाइ ॥
Man ṯa▫o maigal ho▫e rahā niksi▫ā ki▫o kar jā▫e.
The mind has become as big as an elephant; how can it pass through this gate?</td></tr><tr><td>ਐਸਾ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਜੇ ਮਿਲੈ ਤੁਠਾ ਕਰੇ ਪਸਾਉ ॥
ऐसा सतिगुरु जे मिलै तुठा करे पसाउ ॥
Aisā saṯgur je milai ṯuṯẖā kare pasā▫o.
If one meets such a True Guru, by His Pleasure, He shows His Mercy.
</td></tr> <tr><td>ਮੁਕਤਿ ਦੁਆਰਾ ਮੋਕਲਾ ਸਹਜੇ ਆਵਉ ਜਾਉ ॥੧॥
मुकति दुआरा मोकला सहजे आवउ जाउ ॥१॥
Mukaṯ ḏu▫ārā moklā sėhje āva▫o jā▫o. ||1||
Then, the gate of liberation becomes wide open, and the soul easily passes through. ||1|| </td></tr></tbody></table>
:happykaur:Namjap ji, Thanks. That's true interelegeous spirit.
When my daughter was young, we played a game with her father. I would chose a passage from the Bible, the Quran and the Bhagavad Gita (I didn't know about Sikhism at that time), and they had to guess from which book it came. I chose passages without any hints, without specific names. It was so surprising to see how one passage from one book resembled something from another. Thanks for your post. That's what we need: to focus on similarities rather than differences since there is one God and one humanity. Thanks again, that is most refreshing. I think I will start a thread about this.
Bible bashing is easy. I could sit here all day and do it with great glee.
However, I wonder if it is useful? I am taught, as a Sikh, to respect all other religions. The Bible also has some beautiful uplifting passages, especially in the Psalms.
Those of you who know me might be surprised at my saying these things. I have a sort of ongoing battle with my medical caregiver, Irene, who is a Bible-thumping, spirit-filled, born-again evangelising Christian and I have shared some of her (to me) idiotic notions with my friends here at SPN.
I have refrained from answering her question as to why I do not accept her Bible and her religion because to do so, I would have to say things she would find highly offensive, even blasphemous. My religion teaches me I must show respect to other religions (even if I don't feel it).
Sorry if I sound sanctimonious; I just think we need a little balance here.
Yes, there are lots of similarities in most of the religions because goodness is innate in all humanity.
However, there is a caveat. Matthew is meant for only those who accept Jesus as their saviour, not for the non-believers who are bound for the cauldron of Hell. whereas Kabir's salok is for all seekers who want to breed goodness within. The similarities stop here and the differences start taking shapes designed on purpose by the dogmas dictated y each religion.
Guru Amardas says the same thing in anand Sahib that we read everyday during our nitnem-daily prayers.
Khaneio tikhi, valo niki, etei marg javnah.
For a Sikh, the high wire is not just a mere event in the circus but a way of life. Sikhi has been going through trying times ever since the visionary Guru Nanak founded it.
Although similar things are written in many scriptures but if they all claim to be the only way then the same similarities become differences and the gorges become deeper and wider than the Grand Canyon.
The similarities of people from different walks of life, of different faiths and religions became tangible,practical and real when Guru Ram Das started constructing Darbar Sahib with 4 doors welcoming all from all directions and paths and then his son Guru Arjan Dev installed the Adi Granth which has the true gumbo of similarities from many peoples from many backgrounds.
Pol Pol ji,
I admire the way you chose similarities and taught them to your children. This is the practice of a true seeker and I thank you for sharing that.