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So We Sikhs Want a Homeland?

Discussion in 'Hard Talk' started by badshah, Nov 12, 2010.

  1. badshah

    badshah
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    Lets looks at history...... we actually had a home land, during the Sikh Empire, we then had our first Anglo Sikh war and then followed by our second Sikh War when Maharaja Ranjit Singh died leaving the Empire in a power struggle.

    Now lets rewind again a bit earlier, the Hindu's were being converted byu the Moghuls until Sikhism started becoming a martial religion

    Now lets forward again back to the second Anglo SIkh war, so then these same Hindus that were butchered by the Moghuls revolted against the SIkhs especially the Dogras, also the Muslims and the British

    We then lost our homeland and still being a martial religion we were put into use in WW1 and WW2

    Now comming to 2010, we are no longer are a martial religion even though we speak like we still are. We are not tauaght to fight, and all the 5K have now just been turned into symbols.

    How do you feel about wearing symbols? They were never supposed to be symbols they were suppose to be real tools!

    Since now we only wear symbols this weakens what SIkhism really stand for and now we get to a stage of non-martial Sikhism which means for most of us we just do paat!

    So it looks like we had our Sikh homeland but it was unfortunately dissolved although we still have our roots in Punjab today and that is a good enough homeland without it being an offical Sikh state

    Now to the points of getting our homeland back..... we are no longer a martial force and many of us have integrated into society, getting educated, families etc etc and in my point of view it would take the entire Sikh population to take up arms but we are no longer martial so its not possible.

    Infact we have a PM that is Sikh but yet he cannot just hand the SIkhs our own state.

    So to conclude, how can we expect a homeland if we are no longer those kind of Sikhs that were last seen in the Sikh Empire, sure we may be good at praying but now the second arm of Sikhism (martial) is just symbolic?

    84 showed us what would happen if we try and fight in modern times because as I said we are no longer one (caste prevailes), we are out numbered by the Indian army and any other attempt from us would go along the lines of terrorism.

    So to me it looks like, we should just do our best in our own capacity to achieve good jobs and get on with life. What do you think?
     
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  3. Seeker9

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    Re: So we want a homeland?

    Dear Badshah ji

    Just curious...

    So what would you say is more important in Sikhism and to you?
    Spiritual progress or military progress?
     
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  4. badshah

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    Re: So we want a homeland?

    You dont see the point..... up-to the end of the Sikh Empire being a baptized Sikh meant something and everything made sense.

    Now in 2010, if you have everthing symbolic then naturally people will question, oh so what the point of this or that because now these things make no sense.

    Let me give you an example...... Sikh Empire sikh gets baptized and trained to use 5Ks and be spiritual so that means you are Saint Soldier

    Today, what is the meaning of taking Amrit if the K's are only symbolic, who wants to be a sybolic SIkh? So thats why sybols gets challenged by todays Sikhs as they cannot understand them. You cannot use stories from almost 100 years ago of brave warrior sikhs to convince someone to wear "symbols" in 2010
     
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  5. Seeker9

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    Re: So we want a homeland?


    Dear Badshah Ji

    You are correct...I don't see the point
     
  6. badshah

    badshah
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    Re: So we want a homeland?

    Sikh Empire Sikh = Saint Soldier

    2010 Sikh = 50% Saint, 50% Symbolic (unless you join the army and they let you wear 5K's)
     
  7. Seeker9

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    Re: So we want a homeland?

    Dear Badshah Ji

    I'm a bit of a pragmatist at times and would humbly suggest that if the Gurus said something is important then it is important and that is the only reason, in Sikhism, that it should be important

    Historical profile, whilst interesting, should not be as important

    Good point re role models and I think they are role models today, especially in the Military forces in USA for example, where you have the "full 5K Sikh" in active duty
     
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  8. badshah

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    Re: So we want a homeland?

    I agree with you but look, you put missles on a F15 fighter plane so that it can use them

    So now if we put a kirpan on a sikh its simply symbolic, does that mean its of no use?
     
  9. Seeker9

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    Re: So we want a homeland?

    Dear Badshah Ji

    There is undoubtedly a proud military heritage that should continue to be remembered with pride

    The Kirpan is a more subtle, skilful and elegant weapon from a different time ...whereas today we have missiles and guns.....we also have laws in most countries around carrying such things on our person...

    I have some sympathy with what you are saying....but we are where we are...
     
  10. badshah

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    Re: So we want a homeland?

    I think there should be two tiers of Sikhs in this day and age

    1. Spirtual sikhs (do naam jap all day and seva to community)
    2. Saint soldiers (pray but enrol into the army)

    Now that makes sense to me..... with the kirpan replaced with a gun in point 2, obviously kachera modified for all weather conditions and movement
     
  11. hparmar

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    Re: So We, Sikhs Want a Homeland?

    Dear badshah ji and all,

    I understand what you are saying but I feel that you need to separate religion from religious culture. Religious culture changes with time but the fundamental thought or idea of a religion does not or should not change with time if it is the undeniable truth. The example of this is the teachings in the guru granth saib.
    100 years from now Sikhs might or might not have turbans but people seeking a way to enlightenment will still read the holy scriptures to better them selves.
    I feel that all religions have a bit of militant religious culture in them. This is fit for the times in which a the practice a persons religion is oppressed but i would argue that it can be easily be manipulated to harm others in the name of god. examples of this can be found in any history book.
    I don't think people should forget there roots but they should also have a clear understanding of the reality they live in.
    A sikh homeland would be a great feeling but at what cost? What is the benefit of having a home land besides for a warm feeling? I ask this question not to **** people off but to genuinely find out the advantages as i do not understand and would like to learn.
    btw these are just my views if they offended anyone i apologize but please do respond.
     
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  12. spnadmin

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    Re: So We, Sikhs Want a Homeland?

    My comments are intended only for reflection. And I am not certain that I am understanding everyone's replies to this thread as I should.

    But consider the case of Israel (minus the ongoing conflicts with Palestinians for the moment). Let's just consider the internal religious conflicts that occur there.

    Israel is considered a democracy. It was devised as a homeland for ALL Jews. The definition of who is a Jew is typically taken to be anyone whose mother was Jewish.

    However there are some issues.

    Orthodox Jews command heavy influence in the day to day workings of the country. For example, if an archeological site is dug, and the country is filled with still hidden and ancient settlements, orthodox Jews must be appeased whenever they feel that a religious tenet has or will be violated by further excavation. Another example, a convert to Judaism is not considered a Jew in Israel unless converted by an orthodox rabbi, and has papers to prove it. These are only 2 examples of how in spite of being a country for all Jews, orthodox communities can put glue in the engine.

    So many will say there will be no problems because there is only "one Sikhee." Nobel words that have yet to take form.

    For a Sikh homeland, often the argument is given that it would be worked out by the UN and governed democratically. But by whom? and how? and would this happen without armed internal conflict to see who would rise to the top as the dominant political influences - without respect for sectarian adherence?

    Today UK Akaali Kirtan Jatha and Damdami Takt continue a bitter battle over a number of issues which began as arguments over rehat and scriptural questions regarding DG and also Raagmala. Numerous splinter groups in India claim they are rightfully the caretakers of the legacy of Jarnail Singh Bhindranwale and resort to civil disobedience and even at times thuggery to make a point. In Canada, and now in the US, there are bitter gurdwara battles over Dasam Granth. There are many rehats that sub-groups of Sikhs adhere to while at the same time others consider the Sikh Rehat Maryada either outdated or not the true rehat (again for uncounted reasons). Various organized members of the diaspora call for violence against SinghSabha institutions and media. There are "beadbi watches" to monitor and organize against members of Sikh groups (e.g., Ramgarhia gurdwaras are under beadbi watch) because they do not walk the chalk line as their critics would like. Slkh media is often used to promote the idea that this or that group is anti-panthic using stories that are pure concoctions. The Sikh Rehat Maryada could be a blueprint for how to resolve such religious matters without resorting to armed conflict. That has not happened. Or conflicts could be resolved without looking for court intervention and political resolutions. Yet ultimately politics seems never to be kept out of religious disputes.

    For the moment assume that a Sikh homeland takes the path of Israel. Would "orthodox Sikhs" have great influence?" What is an orthodox Sikh? The answer might be the amritdhari are orthodox Sikhs. But we all know that, for some, any one particular amritdhari is not armitdahri enough. And for others, some amritdharis are too amritdhari for one's taste. SRM, AKJ rehat and Damdami takht rehat are not the same reaht.


    How then does the panth keep religion out of political disputes when a proposed homeland is defined by a religion? That is not an easy question to answer imho. Even if a homeland were carved out under the best possible political conditions, will these internal conflicts be imported to this new place. And how will they be sorted out?
     
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  13. findingmyway

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    Re: So We, Sikhs Want a Homeland?

    Someone recently said when politics is governed by religion it works really well and you get miri-piri. When religion is governed by politics, problems arise. For the last 100 years + the latter situation reigns supreme :seriouskudi:
     
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  14. hparmar

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    Re: So We, Sikhs Want a Homeland?

    I couldn't agree with everything you said more. If you take isreal as an example and put aside that the majaority of the jews living there are coverts from Russia. Which is not there ancestors homeland. Just think of the 100s of years of disputes and how many lives lost over what? the right to call a piece of land yours?
    is that higher then the price of life of a fellow human? our religion was made to abolish ideas such as caste and other inequalities but We Sikhs as a community have not followed that principle cause if we did i feel that we wouldn't have a need to separate ourselves and would see all humans as Sikhs.
    We cant even get along in the current state all we need is a homeland so we can have a ever lasting civil war. So we can kill each other even faster.
     
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  15. kds1980

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    Re: So We, Sikhs Want a Homeland?

    Some sikhs want homeland for very simple reason and that is there is hardly any place on Earth to whom sikhs can call it their own.Even in Punjab Sikhs are losing numbers and with that there political strength is also declining.If Sikhs were in trouble anywhere Like we have seen Pakistan then which country is going to help them? Sikhs can become victim any type of ethnic voilence anywhere in world and in that case Sikhs are at total mercy of
    UN or some other country
     
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  16. spnadmin

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    Re: So We, Sikhs Want a Homeland?

    findinmyway ji

    I would like to agree with you, but I cannot. Religion needs to stay out of politics when its members do not understand the difference between "rule" and "governance." The situation in Israel is that religion will not stay out of politics. That is one of the reasons why the Israeli-Palestinian conflict cannot be easily solved. Orthodox Jews routinely put hard-liners into office. The country is defined by religious adherence, even though birth, and thus genes define ethnic identity as a Jew.

    Certainly politics should stay out of religion. Religion ideally should bring great truths and values to the practice of politics. When in history has that ever happened?

    Sikhism has not seen that. Ranjit Singh managed a system of religious harmony in Punjab, but to do it he crafted a form of governance that blended religions. He himself is criticized however in some quarters for creating an atmosphere that tainted Sikhism with Hindu beliefs and practices. Our Gurus managed to blend miri and piri, however, this model amounts to theocracy. A Sikh homeland could be de facto a theocracy. If we go to the argument that Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is now the Guru and can temper politics with its wisdom, then we are faced with another problem. The problem of those who would give parkash to other scriptures. Now I am back to where I began. How does one govern an country under the flag of "one Sikhee" or "miri piri" when the facts on the ground tell a different story.
     
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  17. hparmar

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    Re: So We, Sikhs Want a Homeland?

    that is understandable. I live in the US growing up in ny with a turban was also tough not to compare with the hardships people have faced in counties like packistan. I dont know if having a homeland would help me or any other sikh more then unifying as a communtiy to change the environment where you live. The Jews didn't get a homeland out of good faith they got a home land because they were a united community that knows how to use the existing political system to there advantage. So maybe We should focus more on unity where ever we live so that Sikhs never see issues that you speak off.
     
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  18. spnadmin

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    Re: So We, Sikhs Want a Homeland?

    YES This is a bitter and tragic truth. How many times can one say that? Not often enough. Say it 1000 times. I agree so much with you.

    And that is also why the inability to find a way to stand above these panthic divisions make the lack of a homeland an even greater tragedy and even more painful.
     
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  19. kds1980

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    Re: So We, Sikhs Want a Homeland?

    Jews mainly got their homeland because after second world war there was mass world wide sympathy with them.They were community that lost 3/4 th of its european population and 1/4 th overall population in second world war
    Sikhs on the other hand never had any sympathy factor
     
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  20. kds1980

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    Re: So We, Sikhs Want a Homeland?

    Divisions are almost in very Religion ,even much greater than Sikhism,The only problem is that almost every sikh have started believing that his/her version is genuine while the other's one is false and in that He/she start bad mouthing attacking his own co religionist .
     
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  21. Seeker9

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    Re: So We, Sikhs Want a Homeland?

    Just curious...

    Countries like China and Thailand have high Buddhist populations, but neither could be called a Buddhist homeland. Tibet perhaps???


    Just wondering what a Buddhist would consider to be their homeland???

    And whether Buddhists lament the lack of a clear place to call their own?

    Or maybe they think there are more important things in their lives??

    Don't know the answers......
     
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