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Sikhs and Janay-oo

Discussion in 'Sikh Sikhi Sikhism' started by Archived_member2, Mar 15, 2006.

  1. Archived_member2

    Archived_member2
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    Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakal!
    Dear all!

    What have a Sikh and Sikhi to do with Janay-oo?


    Balbir Singh
     
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  3. rosethorne

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    Sat Sri Akal Balbir Singhji, In my view janey-oo is worn by the Brahmins only.
    All the wealth in the world belongs to Brahmin. As Brahmin is born from the mouth of Brahma, he is worthy to receive everything. if a Brahmin eats somebody else’s food, wears clothes of others and gives one’s possession to another it does not mean that Brahmin is using somebody else’s possession. In fact, whatever there is in the world, it belongs to the Brahmin. (Manu Simariti Chap. 1, S: 100-101)
    This script shows what Brahmin is.
    And Sikhi believes in equality, humanity, justice, and above all forgiveness.
    Without the Janey-oo, no one can become genuine Brahmin. Janey-oo is a passport to make sins without any regret, Because you are free from that.
    I don't think any of the Sikh wanted to wear Janey-oo.
    Guru has given us too many beliefs to believe, so no question of thinking any thing about Janey-oo. It is a waste thing for Gursikhs.
    Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa, Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh.
     
  4. hps62

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    Dear brother

    Sikhs have nothing for or against Janay-oo.

    It was used by our gurus against Symbolism which had engulfed indian nation.

    Instead of fighting the mughals we were more into these cermonies of priestdom.

    The same symbolism is again raising its head in under a new guise in Sikhism which is for every one to see.

    We must fight and resist symbolism in what ever form and where ever it exists amongst us . Janay-oo was an old example there are many new ones .

    Can you name some ??


    luv

    hps62
     
  5. rosethorne

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    Dear Hps62ji, There is no question to offend anyone but knowing of the scriptures make you mature. Janey-oo is not only the symbol. And in fact so many Gursikhs believe in it as symbol only. If it was only a symbol then there might be no need to reject it. You know all the symbols are of Sikh's are also just not a symbol only. But they really justify anything about to question on them. Janey-oo is definately was a passport for genuine miscreants. There is no class of humans designated by the GOD himself, Like these Brahmins, thereselves made themselves by wearing that Janey-oo. If there was at that time, not to waste the time to resist against Moghuls, Then what is the reason we can't see the real thing about Janey-oo? Janey-oo is a Dangerous Belief of Hindus, which allows some people to do whatever they want. It is happening today also. Base of the Janey-oo is wrong.
    Gursikhs are very kind at there heart, They can't do anything wrong to anybody like the Janey-oo owner Brahmins.
    Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa, Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh.
     
  6. Archived_member2

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    Satsriakal to all and Rosethorne Ji!

    You wrote "In my view janey-oo is worn by the Brahmins only."

    Janay-oo is made of thread. Should a Sikh discard only Janay-oo or everything made of thread?

    The translation of the shloka from Manusmriti may not be correctly interpreted.

    Let us remain with the topic.

    You confirmed Sikh views in these words "And Sikhi believes in equality, humanity, justice, and above all forgiveness."

    Are Janay-oo and Brahmins out of this equality, humanity, justice, and above all forgiveness?

    You wrote "Without the Janey-oo, no one can become genuine Brahmin. Janey-oo is a passport to make sins without any regret, Because you are free from that."

    I do not know which court has given this example verdict.

    You contemplated "I don't think any of the Sikh wanted to wear Janey-oo."

    Please explain why?

    You seem to be convinced when you write "Guru has given us too many beliefs to believe, so no question of thinking any thing about Janey-oo. It is a waste thing for Gursikhs."

    I thought the Gurus wanted us to come out of all beliefs and realize the Truth.

    **************

    hps62 Ji!

    You wrote about Janay-oo "It was used by our gurus against Symbolism which had engulfed indian nation."

    In Which symbols our Gurus wanted us to engulf then?

    You say 'not any.'

    What is the purpose to name and think of those?

    What about Sikhs who are totally engulfed with symbols they do not wear?


    Balbir Singh
     
  7. rosethorne

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    Dear Balbir Singhji, Great Gursikh you are unquestionably. But I'm not great at all. I believe in My Guru And all in him only. When I reffered to manusamriti then please go to further details by reading manusamriti and find what is written in there and what the exact meaning is inside. And when It comes to a question About Kirpan then automatical;y a Gursikh involves into that and when the question of Janey-oo comes then automatically Brahmin comes out of it, It is very logical. And you are so great and leaving this fact behind, Strange really. And when I said Too many beliefs Guru Sahib has given to Gursikhs then you should see the facts in there. Is there any belief of KhandaPahul other than Sikhi? Is ther Any belief of GuruKaLangar means SangatSewa otherthan Sikhi? Is there anyother belief of Gurbani Path daily to simar IKNAAM, otherthan Sikhi? It is also abelief to have IKNAAM,Don't you realize it as a Belief? When You said Let us remain in the topic then can you answer me that what the Janey-oo's meaning without Brahmin? Can you give any point on it.
     
  8. Archived_member2

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    Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakal!

    Dear Rosethorne Ji!

    I am nothing. Please let it remain.

    I don't believe in my Guru since I have come to know HIm.

    Manusmriti is not understood by many Hindus as Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji by many Sikhs, in my view.

    Scriptures are not to interpret and understand. Scriptures are the results after experiencing Truth. There is no way to understand those before experiencing Truth.

    Studying scriptures is a worldly engagement.

    You wrote "And when It comes to a question About Kirpan then automatical;y a Gursikh involves into that and when the question of Janey-oo comes then automatically Brahmin comes out of it."

    Surely it is when we consider the outlook of both.

    Strange is how Janay-oo made of thread dwelled in the mind of many Sikhs.

    The Gurus want our mind to be dwelling with Naam.

    You wrote further "And when I said Too many beliefs Guru Sahib has given to Gursikhs then you should see the facts in there. Is there any belief of KhandaPahul other than Sikhi?"

    Please provide a reference from the Gurus. I will be thankful.

    Quote <<<Is ther Any belief of GuruKaLangar means SangatSewa otherthan Sikhi? >>>

    Langar and Sangat Sewa are the social aspects of human beings. These are known to them since Jeevs know hunger.

    We should be not live in illusion that other than God is doing this Sewa.

    Quote <<<Is there anyother belief of Gurbani Path daily to simar IKNAAM, otherthan Sikhi? It is also abelief to have IKNAAM,Don't you realize it as a Belief? >>>

    Gurbani Paath is not Simran. The horizon of Sikhi is beyond Gurbani Paath.

    Yes! Iknaam is a belief till one has come to know this Truth.

    You asked "When You said Let us remain in the topic then can you answer me that what the Janey-oo's meaning without Brahmin? Can you give any point on it."

    'Ja' means Janam (Birth).

    'Na' means no or not.

    'Ay' means this.

    'OO' means above.

    The state of no Janam is above this.

    A true Brahman is one who has come to know this state.

    A lost Brahmin is one who wears the Janay-oo made of thread to display his conscious level.

    Please do not get surprised. I also heard this explanation for the first time.


    Balbir Singh
     
  9. vijaydeep Singh

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    Gurfateh

    Janeu is not wron by Brahmins only.

    All Dvjanam people ie Brahmins,Kshtriyas and Vaishyas are made to wear it in a ceromany similar to say sunnat in Islam or say Baptism in us or Chrsitian as on this day person is told to be bron in faith and education of faith is started and one who does not undergoes that is Sudra(lower).


    Later on it became birth base.So Guru Maharaj's family was not Brhimn but Kharti when Janeu was supposed to worn by him which he refused.

    anyway most Hindus do not wear this at present.

    But when in past hindu was to be converted into Sikhs Guru did made them to remove thier Janeus and Brhimns did complaned that Guru is removing Janues and putting them on trees of all the Hindus becoming Amritdhari Sikh.


    Guru said that these trees will became humans in next birth.
    (Sau Sakhi Mangal Prakash)
    It was recoreded but not one understood actualy deeper meaning.

    Das just wants to draw inference from it and can be misatken that Guru made fun of Janueu wearers as they were like vegitables,who were been exploited by moghuls.

    And they were vegitablles in last birth or they are like Tree or just easy to cut in this birth also and if Janue is to be kept then you will remani like tree only.
     
  10. Archived_member2

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    Satsriakal to all and Vijaydeep Singh Ji!

    There is a difference. Gurus sing songs of the Truth experienced. The story tellers write what the Gurus meant and how the outer world looked around them.

    The true Guru leaves no doubt.

    The story tellers raise many questions.

    Should we refer to the Guru's Baanee when we want to know something from them or should we read stories about them?

    **************

    Guru Nanak Ji asked to wear the true Janay-oo.

    "da-i-aa kapaah santokh soot jat gandhee sat vat."
    "ayhu janay-oo jee-a kaa ha-ee ta paaday ghat." SGGS Ang 471-2

    Gurdev called Janay-oo 'Gyan' (wisdom).

    "gi-aan janay-oo Dhi-aan kuspaatee." SGGS Ang 355-2

    **************

    Who has injected hate in Sikhs against Janay-oo?

    What will happen with those who live hating the Janay-oo made of thread but searching the true Janay-oo, the Gyan that is above death (Mukti)?


    Balbir Singh
     
  11. rosethorne

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    Dear Gursikhs, I just want to say a thing That Sikhi is very Logical undoubtably. Whenever anybody want to find anything about to a thing then it is very logical that you or me shouldn't find its truth if not finding a second thing by naturaly. Like when we want to have NAAM then We Have to have more SIMRAN. When we want to be Baptised by GURUS then we need to have PAHUL. Whatever the Janey-oo is I may not able to find the Truth about it, But in My view it is not a way to go to AKAL at all. In Sikhi there are too many ways to reach AKAL,thats a question of transmigration into AKALPURAKH. It is not as easy at all to wear Any kind of Janey-oo it may be. It is not easy at all.
    I'm sorry to everybody if any of my word hurts anybody.
     
  12. Archived_member2

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    Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakal!

    Dear Rosethorne Ji!

    You wrote "That Sikhi is very Logical undoubtably."
    Logic is under the domain of mind. I have heard God is beyond logic.

    You also wrote "Like when we want to have NAAM then We Have to have more SIMRAN."
    Please elaborate it. Is NAAM received after having more Simran? I feel first NAAM is received and Simran begins.

    You mentioned some hundred-year-old tradition "When we want to be Baptised by GURUS then we need to have PAHUL."
    These days, PAHUL is received from five persons in a particular ceremony wearing a special dress imagining the presence of the Guru.

    Are you sure when you write "Whatever the Janey-oo is I may not able to find the Truth about it, But in My view it is not a way to go to AKAL at all."

    I am convinced why Guru Nanak Ji praised the true Janay-oo.

    He even sang to wear it till the Jot (Soul) is in the body, along with NAAM.

    Gurdev is singing.

    bwhir jnyaU ijcru joiq hY nwil ]
    "baahar janay-oo jichar jot hai naal."
    Outside Janay-oo till Jot keeps company.

    DoqI itkw nwmu smwil ]
    "Dhotee tikaa naam samaal."
    Dhotee, Tikka and Naam, be aware of.

    AYQY EQY inbhI nwil ]
    "aithai othai nibhee naal."
    Here, there keep along.

    ivxu nwvY hoir krm n Bwil ]2]
    "vin naavai hor karam na bhaal." ||2|| SGGS Ang 355-5
    Without NAAM, do not manage other activities.

    I wish all true Sikhs the wisdom and state above birth and death on earth.

    I pray you receive true Simran and transcend the worldly cotton Janay-oo and other symbols.

    Love.


    Balbir Singh
     
  13. vijaydeep Singh

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    Gurfateh

    Respected Singh Sahib Balbeer Singh Ji,

    Das is sooory if something wrong was writtan.

    Das only draw inferance that as Yagyopaveeet in past was symbol of education(with Sanatan Scriptures).

    We have our Five Ks as symbol of spritual upliftment.So removal of Yagyopveet and going in for Amrit Sanaskar for us might have meant from mental upliftment to spritual one and former can die like veigtable but latter is eternal.

    So Bani could be our Janeu as well as our Sunnat(Circumsnenseion) and same is our Amrit.

    Forgive noivce like das for anything wrong.But Akal did give new defiantion of Janeu as Truth via our Masters.
     
  14. rosethorne

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    Dear Balbir Singhji, One thing I have to say that all of us are humans and when you are asking about What to do with Janey-oo for the sikhs. Ok, You made this question of the topic, And I'm sorry about to say that you are asking about the logic behind any gursikh can say about this, This was your main objective. And when you are saying that GOD is beyond logics then also I'm sorry to say that it is universal fact, You are not the only knowing of it. Every human brain is depending on logics. Janey-oo is on logics and GOD is not. They don't have any similarity at all. You youself have given the wrong direction to your post topic. True Janey-oo is again a question of spirituality and you have not Given any light on this in your topic. And when light is not at ur Soul and Heart then What is True Janey-oo and what is Amrit. This question has no significance. And one thing have to say That As a true Gursikh you have written in you post that "You mentioned some hundred-year-old tradition "When we want to be Baptised by GURUS then we need to have PAHUL."
    "These days, PAHUL is received from five persons in a particular ceremony wearing a special dress imagining the presence of the Guru".

    My question is that after the Guru Gadhi given to Sri Guru Granth Sahib there were all the Amrit ceremonies were like you said, Then what is new and significant in your finding? What you want, do you want to have amrit in the presence of DehGuru?
     
  15. Archived_member2

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    Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakal!

    Dear Rosethorne Ji!

    One wears symbols not only on the body. Symbols engage the mind also emotionally.

    Mind may be entangled rejecting or accepting a symbol. Every time mind is busy with duality.

    A person frustrated by wearing symbols often starts hating symbols worn by others.

    I asked this question when I found some people possessing symbols. At the same time they were obsessed with hating symbols worn by others.

    In my experience, this is also not the way to achieve Truth.

    Truth is realized by true NAAM Simran.

    **************

    You wrote "Every human brain is depending on logics."
    In view of science, as much it is developed, only a part of half brain is depending on logic. Rest is irrational.

    You also wrote "And when you are saying that GOD is beyond logics then also I'm sorry to say that it is universal fact, You are not the only knowing of it."
    I do not know how the universe came to know this fact.

    You continued "Janey-oo is on logics and GOD is not. They don't have any similarity at all."
    Perhaps the number five and God have similarity.

    Quote <<<True Janey-oo is again a question of spirituality and you have not Given any light on this in your topic. >>>
    I am not the giver of any light. God may please open our eyes. No one is actually in darkness.

    Quote <<<And when light is not at ur Soul and Heart then What is True Janey-oo and what is Amrit. This question has no significance. >>>
    Thanks for enlightening me.

    --------------

    Dear Vijaydeep Singh Ji!

    God acts through all.

    You should not feel sooory. God is never wrong.

    Quote <<<Yagyopaveeet in past was symbol of education. >>>

    All symbols and education are worldly. I never saw God receiving an educated person wearing symbols.

    Living like a Sikh on earth wearing symbols is a different experience than meeting God as Sikh.

    Quote <<<So Bani could be our Janeu as well as our Sunnat(Circumsnenseion) and same is our Amrit. >>>

    Worldly Janay-oo, Sunnat and Amrit are signals. Those are not the milestones to reach the aim of human lives.

    Janay-oo itself says. Go beyond it.

    Sunnat (circumcision) itself says. Transcend sensual organs.

    Amrit itself says. Never die again.

    Quote <<<Forgive noivce like das for anything wrong.But Akal did give new defiantion of Janeu as Truth via our Masters. >>>

    The Guru tells Truth.

    Truth is as new as the present.

    Truth is as old as the past.

    Truth will be as true as the Future.

    Love.


    Balbir Singh
     
  16. rosethorne

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    Dear balbir Singhji, There is no point as you said that "Perhaps the number five and God have similarity". This also is behind on any logic of yourself or any other intellectual. But all humans are not intellectual. But the thing is that you quoted in your posts that God is not under any logic, But you are producing only logics and rejecting other's logics. 1St thing you have said in your post that In your view Naam Is first to take and after the Simran comes into life. As per Gursikhs know about Simran and Naam is that when it comes as GuruKirpa Then Simran comes in our life and when Guru wanted after give the Naam to a Gursikh. But how you said that Naam is first to recieve then I should say that you are a Sant Or Baba's Sikh. And by my experience it is True I know. You said that symbols are worn by body and the Mind then I have to say that all truth is behind the Soul which is nearer to God Not the body or the Mind. And one thing I have to say that What symbols were in the fight against Moghuls by Shahid Baba Deep SinghJi was able to perform such a marvellous scene in the front of world symbolism that This is the SoulPower of a Human. Khanda-Pahul is not a symbol at all, It is a cleaning agent to the Soul. After taking the Pahul From Five Pyares, one becomes magnifiscent not by body not by mind but Truly By Soul. One fact is there that our body or our mind remains unconsious any time but after taking Khanda-Pahul they don't need any symbols only to reach AKALPURAKH, there Soul is purified after that. Nobody should dare to say Khanda-Pahul as symbol.
     
  17. Archived_member2

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    Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakal!
    Dear Rosethorne Ji!

    God creates all. He feels happy watching all His activities through them.

    It is the same with people whom HE gives Khanda-Pahul.

    You argued "But the thing is that you quoted in your posts that God is not under any logic, But you are producing only logics and rejecting other's logics."

    God is beyond mind and its logic. The Gurus said it too. Then why did they sing so much about Him? I wish you find answers.

    You expressed your exclusive experiences "As per Gursikhs know about Simran and Naam is that when it comes as GuruKirpa Then Simran comes in our life and when Guru wanted after give the Naam to a Gursikh. But how you said that Naam is first to recieve then I should say that you are a Sant Or Baba's Sikh."

    I feel your Baba and my great grand Baba are the same. Through GurKirpa Simran came first in your life and when Guru wants Naam will come afterwards too.
    Baba Ji has given me Naam first with GurKirpa. Earlier I was repeating something else.

    You wrote "One fact is there that our body or our mind remains unconsious any time but after taking Khanda-Pahul they don't need any symbols only to reach AKALPURAKH, there Soul is purified after that."

    Have I understood you correctly? After Khanda-Pahul, one does not need any symbols.

    You added further "there Soul is purified after that."

    I congratulate you for your experiences.

    You wrote in the end "Nobody should dare to say Khanda-Pahul as symbol."

    I don't think Sikhs want others to taste Khanda-Pahul by scaring them.

    I know other examples of Gursikhs who have taken Khanda-Pahul.

    Please do not create imaginary enemies. Nobody other than God is truly interested in watching, what you are doing.

    **************

    Dear Rosethrone Ji!

    Guru Nanak Ji asked for the true Janay-oo.
    He asked for it when He was supposed to wear Janay-oo made of thread in a ceremony.

    How many Sikhs have asked for the true Kakaars when they are supposed to wear those in a ceremony? What are the true values of Kakaars? Perhaps our Babas at home can enlighten us.

    **************

    The great riddle of life is to find out, who is smarter than ego.


    Balbir Singh
     
  18. rosethorne

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    Dear balbir Singhji, Can I say with your permission that my expirience is as much as true that you got angry with the question of Sant or babas. If you are talking of ego then me say that you own anger in yourself so how could any Baba can be able to give you Naam First. And please Tell how much years before That Baba ji has given you the Naam, And then after we can find that how much a person can waste Such a Gurkirpa. And the question of Khanda-Pahul is in my last post and you said that 'I don't think Sikhs want others to taste Khanda-Pahul by scaring them'. If you find that I'm scaring others then also I have to say that You really wasted your expirience and your life. Because you are not able to see Love for the Khanda-Pahul In my post, I should say that Every thing is having two aspects and a person is not able to see both the aspects of a thing then how willbe that Babaji, Who has given Naam to them.
    And if you say that I'm scaring others then please analyze of your words, 'Please do not create imaginary enemies. Nobody other than God is truly interested in watching, what you are doing'. You are Angry Sir, You are angry. So that is the point of a wasted life, just want to spray the words and not even persuing the real things. May God help You further.
     
  19. Archived_member2

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    Satsriakal to all and Rosethrone Ji!

    You want to convince others that you are a farsighted person. Can you also see true Janay-oo?

    The topic here is true Janay-oo which Guru Nanak Ji asked 'Paaday' to give if he has one.

    Have you any experience of the true Janay-oo?

    You put stress on your love toward Khanda-Pahul. Please refer the Guru's Name and Vaak who instructed you for Khanda_Pahul. All will be thankful.


    Balbir Singh
     
  20. rosethorne

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    Dear Balbir Singhji, You have said that Guru Nanakji asked Paandey to give if he has one. I'm agree with this. But if you have tasted the real Amrit Khanda-Pahul then you willbe able to find true Janey-oo. I'm no one as to see true Janey-oo but when Mere Pita Dhan Dhan Sri Kalgiyaan Wale Maharaj, grant me the permission then I'll see it and may not be able to show you but when I will have it then I'll not shouting at all like you are shouting about true Janey-oo. No body on earth can see or find true Janey-oo if he is finding any differences between Guru Nanak DevJi and Sri Guru Gobind SinghJi. If you or me or anybody wanted to see and find true Janey-oo, then the only path, which is concluded by 10 GURU JYOT, Khanda-Pahul. Just go to Chak Amrit of Khanda-Pahul and find yourself standing tall above all with true Janey-oo. Nobody can see true Janey-oo when he as you just interested to see the Guru's Name and vaak who instucted me or anybody for Khanda-Pahul. What you willbe thankfull,i'll be more thankfull to you if you find love for Khanda-Pahul in yourself. As the intellectual you are, If you Chak Amrit of Khanda-Pahul then you willbe first than anybody to see true Janey-oo. Find truth in yourself only. And anybody anybody can shout about the true Janey-oo, that may he have seen it but I Can challenge it by the grace of My Guru Dhan Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj, that will go as just shouting only, no one is to bother it for. May God enlight you, not any Babas, Otherwise you may waste rest of your life also as earlier you wasted. Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa, Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh.
     
  21. Archived_member2

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    Satsriakal to all and Rosethorne Ji!

    You wrote "Dear Balbir Singhji, You have said that Guru Nanakji asked Paandey to give if he has one. I'm agree with this. But if you have tasted the real Amrit Khanda-Pahul then you willbe able to find true Janey-oo."

    Did Guru Nanak Ji also taste the real Amrit Khanda-Pahul first? Is Khanda-Pahul an ability to find true Janay-oo?

    You seem to have tasted Khanda-Pahul. Why do you write then "I'm no one as to see true Janey-oo but?"

    Thanks for your good wishes "May God enlight you, not any Babas."

    Please do not put God in difficulty. God told me once. HE is everybody's Baba.

    Love.


    Balbir Singh
     

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