Sikhism Is Not The Same As Hinduism, Islam Or Christianity Etc

[Harjas Kaur Khalsa]

I already wrote that as per amarkosh, it is used in prefix item, its not new, the idea Dr Sahib singh ji gives is used with a line from Upnishda. He doesn’t take that meaning because for him being a Sanskrit scholar, it is a way of showing respect not exactly ParBraham. He picks the third meaning which is actually “ BrahaM’ but not Trimurthy.

Yes, in the Vedas Om is defined as Parabrahm. In the Vaishnava Puranas it is defined as Trimurthi, as was explained in previous post.

As you have read a lot about these things, kindly quote from Atharva Vedas, Shiv puran, Grur Puran, Aatam Puran, manu simiriti part 3rd slok 13, part 5 slok 155, see how they tell disgusting tales
Why pick and choose policy to drag Sikhism to old mist? Do we have those kinds of disgusting stories in Guru Granth Sahib ji then why even it is being compared with those Bhain ji?. In fact what you are doing is that simple, you are comparing a pure gold with contaminated one.

Why do the forum moderators conceive "disrespect for Sikhism" by deviating from the Singh Sabha reform interpretation and debating a sanatan interpretation, which has historical documentation to substantiate, along with different Panths within the Sikh tradition, Udasis, Naamdharis, Nirmalas, and Nihangs, as well as Sant sampradhyas which also hold these interpretations? In other words, it's not even a new concept, let alone a "disrespectful" opinion. It only illustrates the profound intolerance of the mainstream Singh Sabha views to any other interpretive viewpoint. Of course the fact that several arrests have been made in India recently which implicate Sikh militants as attempting to assassinate various dera heads who are influential in Punjab and hold sanatan views underscores Sikh fanaticism and intolerance. It isn't disrespect of the Singh Sabha separatist views to argue for the sanatan opinion. But as clearly seen on this post, it is intolerance, disrespect and distortion of sanatan views which needs to be protected. I have had very thoughtful posts deleted and threads closed because they "offended the sentiments" of people who couldn't tolerate the sanatan view, couldn't tolerate that people might be persuaded there is validity to the sanatan view. Yet, look how the sanatan view is abused right before your eyes, and moderators talk about "fairness."

The assumption is that sanatan views are false without question, without deserving fair and impartial investigation, knee-jerk reactivity in imputing anti-Sikhism from the Sanatan interpretation. And by such actions as public disclaimers, deletions without notice and imputation of "disrespect" for the presumed "authentic" Sikh interpretation, the moderators have already labeled the sanatan viewpoint false, and simpy by existing, "disrespectful" to the presumed "true Sikhism." The stated assumption is that Sikh sangat and youth must be protected from exposure to sanatan interpretations and have "sentiments of aggressively intolerant mainstream Sikhs" defended. But I will show you how the sanatan opinion, most notably from Nirmala Panth, which teaches from the Gurbani that study and knowledge of the Vedas, Smritis and Puranas are a part of the heritage of Gurmat Gursikhi. Not only is there a historical heritage of it, but it comes direct from Gurbani. So "who" is being disrespectful of Gurbani? Ask yourselves the question. "Who" is offending legitimate Sikh sentiments to contradict Guru's bani with so low a criticism of Vedas, Smritis and Puranas?

What I have is "Disgusting." "Contaminated." You have the "Gold." Amazing prejudice. Amazing distortion of the truth. And all in the name of a fair and respectful spiritual discussion. FYI, it's not a "pick and choose" policy which takes one to Vedas, Upanishads and Puranas for clarity of definition. But the fact that clarity of understanding is sought for the terms and concepts which are in Gurbani. It is the study of Gurbani which leads to study of the other scriptures. Gurbani does not say the Vedas, Simritis, and Puranas are disgusting and corrupt. How dare Sikhs do so! (Gurbani quotes will prove this.)

ਬੇਦ ਪੁਰਾਨ ਪੜੇ ਕੋ ਇਹ ਗੁਨ ਸਿਮਰੇ ਹਰਿ ਕੋ ਨਾਮਾ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
baedh puraan parrae ko eih gun simarae har ko naamaa ||1|| rehaao ||
This is the blessing of studying the Vedas and the Puraanas, that you may meditate on the Name of the Lord. ||1||Pause||
~SGGS Ji p. 220​

ਬੇਦ ਪੁਰਾਨ ਸਿੰਮ੍ਰਿਤਿ ਸੁਧਾਖ੍ਯ੍ਯਰ ॥
baedh puraan sinmrith sudhhaakhyar ||
The Vedas, the Puraanas and the Simritees, the purest of utterances,

ਕੀਨੇ ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮ ਇਕ ਆਖ੍ਯ੍ਯਰ ॥
keenae raam naam eik aakhyar ||
were created from the One Word of the Name of the Lord.

ਕਿਨਕਾ ਏਕ ਜਿਸੁ ਜੀਅ ਬਸਾਵੈ ॥
kinakaa eaek jis jeea basaavai ||
That one, in whose soul the One Lord dwells

ਤਾ ਕੀ ਮਹਿਮਾ ਗਨੀ ਨ ਆਵੈ ॥
thaa kee mehimaa ganee n aavai ||
the praises of his glory cannot be recounted.
~SGGS Ji p. 262​

ਬੇਦ ਪੁਰਾਨ ਜਾਸ ਗੁਨ ਗਾਵਤ ਤਾ ਕੋ ਨਾਮੁ ਹੀਐ ਮੋ ਧਰੁ ਰੇ ॥
baedh puraan jaas gun gaavath thaa ko naam heeai mo dhhar rae ||
The Vedas and the Puraanas sing His Praises; enshrine His Name within your heart.
~SGGS Ji p. 220​

ਘੋਖੇ ਸਾਸਤ੍ਰ ਬੇਦ ਸਭ ਆਨ ਨ ਕਥਤਉ ਕੋਇ ॥
ghokhae saasathr baedh sabh aan n kathhatho koe ||
I have searched all the Shaastras and the Vedas, and they say nothing except this:

ਆਦਿ ਜੁਗਾਦੀ ਹੁਣਿ ਹੋਵਤ ਨਾਨਕ ਏਕੈ ਸੋਇ ॥੧॥
aadh jugaadhee hun hovath naanak eaekai soe ||1||
"In the beginning, throughout the ages, now and forevermore, O Nanak, the One Lord alone exists."||1||
~SGGS Ji p. 256​

ਅਖਰ ਮਹਿ ਤ੍ਰਿਭਵਨ ਪ੍ਰਭਿ ਧਾਰੇ ॥
akhar mehi thribhavan prabh dhhaarae ||
In the Word, God established the three worlds.

ਅਖਰ ਕਰਿ ਕਰਿ ਬੇਦ ਬੀਚਾਰੇ ॥
akhar kar kar baedh beechaarae ||
Created from the Word, the Vedas are contemplated.

ਅਖਰ ਸਾਸਤ੍ਰ ਸਿੰਮ੍ਰਿਤਿ ਪੁਰਾਨਾ ॥
akhar saasathr sinmrith puraanaa ||
From the Word, came the Shaastras, Simritees and Puraanas.

ਅਖਰ ਨਾਦ ਕਥਨ ਵਖ੍ਯ੍ਯਾਨਾ ॥
akhar naadh kathhan vakhyaanaa ||
From the Word, came the sound current of the Naad, speeches and explanations.

ਅਖਰ ਮੁਕਤਿ ਜੁਗਤਿ ਭੈ ਭਰਮਾ ॥
akhar mukath jugath bhai bharamaa ||
From the Word, comes the way of liberation from fear and doubt.

ਅਖਰ ਕਰਮ ਕਿਰਤਿ ਸੁਚ ਧਰਮਾ ॥
akhar karam kirath such dhharamaa ||
From the Word, come religious rituals, karma, sacredness and Dharma.
~SGGS Ji p. 261​

ਹਰਿ ਸਿਮਰਨਿ ਲਗਿ ਬੇਦ ਉਪਾਏ ॥
har simaran lag baedh oupaaeae ||
Remembering the Lord, the Vedas were composed.
~SGGS Ji p. 263​

ਬੇਦ ਪੁਰਾਨ ਸਿਮ੍ਰਿਤਿ ਬੂਝੈ ਮੂਲ ॥
baedh puraan simrith boojhai mool ||
He understands the fundamental essence of the Vedas, the Puraanas and the Simritees.

ਸੂਖਮ ਮਹਿ ਜਾਨੈ ਅਸਥੂਲੁ ॥
sookham mehi jaanai asathhool ||
In the unmanifest, he sees the manifest world to exist.

ਚਹੁ ਵਰਨਾ ਕਉ ਦੇ ਉਪਦੇਸੁ ॥
chahu varanaa ko dhae oupadhaes ||
He gives instruction to people of all castes and social classes.

ਨਾਨਕ ਉਸੁ ਪੰਡਿਤ ਕਉ ਸਦਾ ਅਦੇਸੁ ॥੪॥
naanak ous panddith ko sadhaa adhaes ||4||
O Nanak, to such a Pandit, I bow in salutation forever. ||4||
~SGGS Ji p. 274​

ਨਾਮ ਕੇ ਧਾਰੇ ਖੰਡ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੰਡ ॥
naam kae dhhaarae khandd brehamandd ||
The Naam is the Support of the earth and solar systems.

ਨਾਮ ਕੇ ਧਾਰੇ ਸਿਮ੍ਰਿਤਿ ਬੇਦ ਪੁਰਾਨ ॥
naam kae dhhaarae simrith baedh puraan ||
The Naam is the Support of the Simritees, the Vedas and the Puraanas.

ਨਾਮ ਕੇ ਧਾਰੇ ਸੁਨਨ ਗਿਆਨ ਧਿਆਨ ॥
naam kae dhhaarae sunan giaan dhhiaan ||
The Naam is the Support by which we hear of spiritual wisdom and meditation.
~SGGS Ji p. 284​

ਬੇਦ ਪੁਰਾਨ ਸਿੰਮ੍ਰਿਤਿ ਮਹਿ ਦੇਖੁ ॥
baedh puraan sinmrith mehi dhaekh ||
See Him in the Vedas, the Puraanas and the Simritees.

ਸਸੀਅਰ ਸੂਰ ਨਖ੍ਯ੍ਯਤ੍ਰ ਮਹਿ ਏਕੁ ॥
saseear soor nakhyathr mehi eaek ||
In the moon, the sun and the stars, He is the One.

ਬਾਣੀ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਕੀ ਸਭੁ ਕੋ ਬੋਲੈ ॥
baanee prabh kee sabh ko bolai ||
The Bani of God's Word is spoken by everyone.
~SGGS Ji p. 294​

ਤਾ ਕੀ ਆਸ ਕਲਿਆਣ ਸੁਖ ਜਾ ਤੇ ਸਭੁ ਕਛੁ ਹੋਇ ॥
thaa kee aas kaliaan sukh jaa thae sabh kashh hoe ||
Place your hopes in Him, for salvation and peace; all things come from Him.

ਚਾਰਿ ਕੁੰਟ ਦਹ ਦਿਸਿ ਭ੍ਰਮਿਓ ਤਿਸੁ ਬਿਨੁ ਅਵਰੁ ਨ ਕੋਇ ॥
chaar kuntt dheh dhis bhramiou this bin avar n koe ||
I wandered around the four corners of the world and in the ten directions, but I saw nothing except Him.

ਬੇਦ ਪੁਰਾਨ ਸਿਮ੍ਰਿਤਿ ਸੁਨੇ ਬਹੁ ਬਿਧਿ ਕਰਉ ਬੀਚਾਰੁ ॥
baedh puraan simrith sunae bahu bidhh karo beechaar ||
I listened to the Vedas, the Puraanas and the Simritees, and I pondered over them in so many ways.

ਪਤਿਤ ਉਧਾਰਨ ਭੈ ਹਰਨ ਸੁਖ ਸਾਗਰ ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰ ॥
pathith oudhhaaran bhai haran sukh saagar nirankaar ||
The Saving Grace of sinners, the Destroyer of fear, the Ocean of peace, the Formless Lord.

ਦਾਤਾ ਭੁਗਤਾ ਦੇਨਹਾਰੁ ਤਿਸੁ ਬਿਨੁ ਅਵਰੁ ਨ ਜਾਇ ॥
dhaathaa bhugathaa dhaenehaar this bin avar n jaae ||
The Great Giver, the Enjoyer, the Bestower - there is no place at all without Him.

ਜੋ ਚਾਹਹਿ ਸੋਈ ਮਿਲੈ ਨਾਨਕ ਹਰਿ ਗੁਨ ਗਾਇ ॥੧॥
jo chaahehi soee milai naanak har gun gaae ||1||
You shall obtain all that you desire, O Nanak, singing the Glorious Praises of the Lord. ||1||
~SGGS Ji p. 296​

ਨਿੰਦਕ ਕੀ ਗਤਿ ਕਤਹੂੰ ਨਾਹੀ ਖਸਮੈ ਏਵੈ ਭਾਣਾ ॥
nindhak kee gath kathehoon naahee khasamai eaevai bhaanaa ||
The slanderer shall never attain emancipation; this is the Will of the Lord and Master.

ਜੋ ਜੋ ਨਿੰਦ ਕਰੇ ਸੰਤਨ ਕੀ ਤਿਉ ਸੰਤਨ ਸੁਖੁ ਮਾਨਾ ॥੩॥
jo jo nindh karae santhan kee thio santhan sukh maanaa ||3||
The more the Saints are slandered, the more they dwell in peace. ||3||

ਸੰਤਾ ਟੇਕ ਤੁਮਾਰੀ ਸੁਆਮੀ ਤੂੰ ਸੰਤਨ ਕਾ ਸਹਾਈ ॥
santhaa ttaek thumaaree suaamee thoon santhan kaa sehaaee ||
The Saints have Your Support, O Lord and Master; You are the Saints' Help and Support.

ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਸੰਤ ਹਰਿ ਰਾਖੇ ਨਿੰਦਕ ਦੀਏ ਰੁੜਾਈ ॥੪॥੨॥੪੧॥
kahu naanak santh har raakhae nindhak dheeeae rurraaee ||4||2||41||
Says Nanak, the Saints are saved by the Lord; the slanderers are drowned in the deep. ||4||2||41||

ਆਸਾ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ॥
aasaa mehalaa 5 ||
Aasaa, Fifth Mehl:

ਬਾਹਰੁ ਧੋਇ ਅੰਤਰੁ ਮਨੁ ਮੈਲਾ ਦੁਇ ਠਉਰ ਅਪੁਨੇ ਖੋਏ ॥
baahar dhhoe anthar man mailaa dhue thour apunae khoeae ||
He washes outwardly, but within, his mind is filthy; thus he loses his place in both worlds.

ਈਹਾ ਕਾਮਿ ਕ੍ਰੋਧਿ ਮੋਹਿ ਵਿਆਪਿਆ ਆਗੈ ਮੁਸਿ ਮੁਸਿ ਰੋਏ ॥੧॥
eehaa kaam krodhh mohi viaapiaa aagai mus mus roeae ||1||
Here, he is engrossed in sexual desire, anger and emotional attachment; hereafter, he shall sigh and weep. ||1||

ਗੋਵਿੰਦ ਭਜਨ ਕੀ ਮਤਿ ਹੈ ਹੋਰਾ ॥
govindh bhajan kee math hai horaa ||
The way to vibrate and meditate on the Lord of the Universe is different.

ਵਰਮੀ ਮਾਰੀ ਸਾਪੁ ਨ ਮਰਈ ਨਾਮੁ ਨ ਸੁਨਈ ਡੋਰਾ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
varamee maaree saap n maree naam n sunee ddoraa ||1|| rehaao ||
Destroying the snake-hole, the snake is not killed; the deaf person does not hear the Lord's Name. ||1||Pause||

ਮਾਇਆ ਕੀ ਕਿਰਤਿ ਛੋਡਿ ਗਵਾਈ ਭਗਤੀ ਸਾਰ ਨ ਜਾਨੈ ॥
maaeiaa kee kirath shhodd gavaaee bhagathee saar n jaanai ||
He renounces the affairs of Maya, but he does not appreciate the value of devotional worship.

ਬੇਦ ਸਾਸਤ੍ਰ ਕਉ ਤਰਕਨਿ ਲਾਗਾ ਤਤੁ ਜੋਗੁ ਨ ਪਛਾਨੈ ॥੨॥
baedh saasathr ko tharakan laagaa thath jog n pashhaanai ||2||
He finds fault with the Vedas and the Shaastras, and does not know the essence of Yoga. ||2||

ਉਘਰਿ ਗਇਆ ਜੈਸਾ ਖੋਟਾ ਢਬੂਆ ਨਦਰਿ ਸਰਾਫਾ ਆਇਆ ॥
oughar gaeiaa jaisaa khottaa dtabooaa nadhar saraafaa aaeiaa ||
He stands exposed, like a counterfeit coin, when inspected by the Lord, the Assayer.
~SGGS Ji p. 381​

 

[Harjas Kaur Khalsa]

Gurbani does not say the Vedas, Simritis, and Puranas are disgusting and corrupt. How dare Sikhs do so. (More Gurbani quotes continued.)

ਬੇਦ ਸਾਸਤ੍ਰ ਜਨ ਪੁਕਾਰਹਿ ਸੁਨੈ ਨਾਹੀ ਡੋਰਾ ॥
baedh saasathr jan pukaarehi sunai naahee ddoraa ||
The Vedas, the Shaastras and the holy men proclaim it, but the deaf do not hear it.

ਨਿਪਟਿ ਬਾਜੀ ਹਾਰਿ ਮੂਕਾ ਪਛੁਤਾਇਓ ਮਨਿ ਭੋਰਾ ॥੨॥
nipatt baajee haar mookaa pashhuthaaeiou man bhoraa ||2||
When the game of life is over, and he has lost, and he breathes his last, then the fool regrets and repents in his mind. ||2||
~SGGS Ji p. 408​

ਸਾਸਤੁ ਬੇਦੁ ਸਿੰਮ੍ਰਿਤਿ ਸਰੁ ਤੇਰਾ ਸੁਰਸਰੀ ਚਰਣ ਸਮਾਣੀ ॥
saasath baedh sinmrith sar thaeraa surasaree charan samaanee ||
The Shaastras, the Vedas and the Simritees are contained in the ocean of Your Name; the River Ganges is held in Your Feet.

ਸਾਖਾ ਤੀਨਿ ਮੂਲੁ ਮਤਿ ਰਾਵੈ ਤੂੰ ਤਾਂ ਸਰਬ ਵਿਡਾਣੀ ॥੧॥
saakhaa theen mool math raavai thoon thaan sarab viddaanee ||1||
The intellect can understand the world of the three modes, but You, O Primal Lord, are totally astounding. ||1||

ਤਾ ਕੇ ਚਰਣ ਜਪੈ ਜਨੁ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਬੋਲੇ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਬਾਣੀ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
thaa kae charan japai jan naanak bolae anmrith baanee ||1|| rehaao ||
Servant Nanak meditates on His Feet, and chants the Ambrosial Word of His Bani. ||1||Pause||

ਤੇਤੀਸ ਕਰੋੜੀ ਦਾਸ ਤੁਮ੍ਹ੍ਹਾਰੇ ਰਿਧਿ ਸਿਧਿ ਪ੍ਰਾਣ ਅਧਾਰੀ ॥
thaethees karorree dhaas thumhaarae ridhh sidhh praan adhhaaree ||
Three hundred thirty million gods are Your servants. You bestow wealth, and the supernatural powers of the Siddhas; You are the Support of the breath of life.
~SGGS Ji p. 422​

ਵਿਸਮਾਦੁ ਨਾਦ ਵਿਸਮਾਦੁ ਵੇਦ ॥
visamaadh naadh visamaadh vaedh ||
Wonderful is the sound current of the Naad, wonderful is the knowledge of the Vedas.
~SGGS Ji p. 463​

ਕੁਦਰਤਿ ਵੇਦ ਪੁਰਾਣ ਕਤੇਬਾ ਕੁਦਰਤਿ ਸਰਬ ਵੀਚਾਰੁ ॥
kudharath vaedh puraan kathaebaa kudharath sarab veechaar ||
By His Power the Vedas and the Puraanas exist, and the Holy Scriptures of the Jewish, Christian and Islamic religions. By His Power all deliberations exist.
~SGGS Ji p. 464​

ਉਰਧ ਮੂਲ ਜਿਸੁ ਸਾਖ ਤਲਾਹਾ ਚਾਰਿ ਬੇਦ ਜਿਤੁ ਲਾਗੇ ॥
ouradhh mool jis saakh thalaahaa chaar baedh jith laagae ||
Its roots extend upwards, and its branches reach down; the four Vedas are attached to it.

ਸਹਜ ਭਾਇ ਜਾਇ ਤੇ ਨਾਨਕ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਲਿਵ ਜਾਗੇ ॥੨॥
sehaj bhaae jaae thae naanak paarabreham liv jaagae ||2||
He alone reaches this tree with ease, O Nanak, who remains wakeful in the Love of the Supreme Lord God. ||2||
~SGGS Ji p. 503​

ਆਪੇ ਵੇਦ ਪੁਰਾਣ ਸਭਿ ਸਾਸਤ ਆਪਿ ਕਥੈ ਆਪਿ ਭੀਜੈ ॥
aapae vaedh puraan sabh saasath aap kathhai aap bheejai ||
He Himself is the Vedas, the Puraanas and all the Shaastras; He Himself chants them, and He Himself is pleased.

ਆਪੇ ਹੀ ਬਹਿ ਪੂਜੇ ਕਰਤਾ ਆਪਿ ਪਰਪੰਚੁ ਕਰੀਜੈ ॥
aapae hee behi poojae karathaa aap parapanch kareejai ||
He Himself sits down to worship, and He Himself creates the world.

ਆਪਿ ਪਰਵਿਰਤਿ ਆਪਿ ਨਿਰਵਿਰਤੀ ਆਪੇ ਅਕਥੁ ਕਥੀਜੈ ॥
aap paravirath aap niravirathee aapae akathh kathheejai ||
He Himself is a householder, and He Himself is a renunciate; He Himself utters the Unutterable.

ਆਪੇ ਪੁੰਨੁ ਸਭੁ ਆਪਿ ਕਰਾਏ ਆਪਿ ਅਲਿਪਤੁ ਵਰਤੀਜੈ ॥
aapae punn sabh aap karaaeae aap alipath varatheejai ||
He Himself is all goodness, and He Himself causes us to act; He Himself remains detached.
~SGGS Ji p. 551​

ਮਾਈ ਮਨੁ ਮੇਰੋ ਬਸਿ ਨਾਹਿ ॥
maaee man maero bas naahi ||
O mother, my mind is out of control.

ਨਿਸ ਬਾਸੁਰ ਬਿਖਿਅਨ ਕਉ ਧਾਵਤ ਕਿਹਿ ਬਿਧਿ ਰੋਕਉ ਤਾਹਿ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
nis baasur bikhian ko dhhaavath kihi bidhh roko thaahi ||1|| rehaao ||
Night and day, it runs after sin and corruption. How can I restrain it? ||1||Pause||

ਬੇਦ ਪੁਰਾਨ ਸਿਮ੍ਰਿਤਿ ਕੇ ਮਤ ਸੁਨਿ ਨਿਮਖ ਨ ਹੀਏ ਬਸਾਵੈ ॥
baedh puraan simrith kae math sun nimakh n heeeae basaavai ||
He listens to the teachings of the Vedas, the Puraanas and the Simritees, but he does not enshrine them in his heart, even for an instant.
~SGGS Ji p. 632​

ਬੇਦ ਸਿੰਮ੍ਰਿਤਿ ਕਥੈ ਸਾਸਤ ਭਗਤ ਕਰਹਿ ਬੀਚਾਰੁ ॥
baedh sinmrith kathhai saasath bhagath karehi beechaar ||
The Vedas, the Simritees, the Shaastras and the Lord's devotees contemplate Him;

ਮੁਕਤਿ ਪਾਈਐ ਸਾਧਸੰਗਤਿ ਬਿਨਸਿ ਜਾਇ ਅੰਧਾਰੁ ॥੩॥
mukath paaeeai saadhhasangath binas jaae andhhaar ||3||
liberation is attained in the Saadh Sangat, the Company of the Holy, and the darkness of ignorance is dispelled. ||3||
~SGGS Ji p. 675​

ਘੋਖੇ ਮੁਨਿ ਜਨ ਸਿੰਮ੍ਰਿਤਿ ਪੁਰਾਨਾਂ ਬੇਦ ਪੁਕਾਰਹਿ ਘੋਖ ॥
ghokhae mun jan sinmrith puraanaan baedh pukaarehi ghokh ||
I have studied with the silent sages, and carefully read the Simritees, the Puraanas and the Vedas; they all proclaim that,

ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾ ਸਿੰਧੁ ਸੇਵਿ ਸਚੁ ਪਾਈਐ ਦੋਵੈ ਸੁਹੇਲੇ ਲੋਕ ॥੧॥
kirapaa sindhh saev sach paaeeai dhovai suhaelae lok ||1||
by serving the Lord, the ocean of mercy, Truth is obtained, and both this world and the next are embellished. ||1||
~SGGS Ji p. 682​

ਪੂਰਨ ਪੁਰਖ ਅਚੁਤ ਅਬਿਨਾਸੀ ਜਸੁ ਵੇਦ ਪੁਰਾਣੀ ਗਾਇਆ ॥
pooran purakh achuth abinaasee jas vaedh puraanee gaaeiaa ||
The Vedas and the Puraanas sing the Praises of the Perfect, Unchanging, Imperishable Primal Lord.
~SGGS Ji p. 783​

ਧਰਮ ਅਰਥ ਕਾਮ ਸਭਿ ਪੂਰਨ ਮਨਿ ਚਿੰਦੀ ਇਛ ਪੁਜਾਏ ॥
dhharam arathh kaam sabh pooran man chindhee eishh pujaaeae ||
He is overflowing with Dharmic faith, wealth and success; He fulfills the desires of the mind.

ਸ੍ਰੁਤਿ ਸਿਮ੍ਰਿਤਿ ਗੁਨ ਗਾਵਹਿ ਕਰਤੇ ਸਿਧ ਸਾਧਿਕ ਮੁਨਿ ਜਨ ਧਿਆਇਆ ॥
sraath simrith gun gaavehi karathae sidhh saadhhik mun jan dhhiaaeiaa ||
The Vedas and the Simritees sing the Praises of the Creator, while the Siddhas, seekers and silent sages meditate on Him.
~SGGS Ji p. 785​

 

[Harjas Kaur Khalsa]

Gurbani does not say the Vedas, Simritis, and Puranas are disgusting and corrupt. How dare Sikhs do so. (More Gurbani quotes continued prt 3.)

ਦੀਵਾ ਬਲੈ ਅੰਧੇਰਾ ਜਾਇ ॥
dheevaa balai andhhaeraa jaae ||
When the lamp is lit, the darkness is dispelled;

ਬੇਦ ਪਾਠ ਮਤਿ ਪਾਪਾ ਖਾਇ ॥
baedh paath math paapaa khaae ||
reading the Vedas, sinful intellect is destroyed.

ਉਗਵੈ ਸੂਰੁ ਨ ਜਾਪੈ ਚੰਦੁ ॥
ougavai soor n jaapai chandh ||
When the sun rises, the moon is not visible.

ਜਹ ਗਿਆਨ ਪ੍ਰਗਾਸੁ ਅਗਿਆਨੁ ਮਿਟੰਤੁ ॥
jeh giaan pragaas agiaan mittanth ||
Wherever spiritual wisdom appears, ignorance is dispelled.
~SGGS Ji p. 791​

ਜਤੁ ਸੰਜਮ ਤੀਰਥ ਓਨਾ ਜੁਗਾ ਕਾ ਧਰਮੁ ਹੈ ਕਲਿ ਮਹਿ ਕੀਰਤਿ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮਾ ॥੨॥
jath sanjam theerathh ounaa jugaa kaa dhharam hai kal mehi keerath har naamaa ||2||
Celibacy, self-discipline and pilgrimages were the essence of Dharma in those past ages; but in this Dark Age of Kali Yuga, the Praise of the Lord's Name is the essence of Dharma. ||2

ਜੁਗਿ ਜੁਗਿ ਆਪੋ ਆਪਣਾ ਧਰਮੁ ਹੈ ਸੋਧਿ ਦੇਖਹੁ ਬੇਦ ਪੁਰਾਨਾ ॥
jug jug aapo aapanaa dhharam hai sodhh dhaekhahu baedh puraanaa ||
Each and every age has its own essence of Dharma; study the Vedas and the Puraanas, and see this as true.
~SGGS Ji p. 797​

ਭਗਤਿ ਵਛਲ ਭੈ ਕਾਟਨਹਾਰੇ ॥
bhagath vashhal bhai kaattanehaarae ||
He is the Lover and Protector of His devotees, the Destroyer of fear.

ਸੰਸਾਰ ਸਾਗਰ ਅਬ ਉਤਰੇ ਪਾਰੇ ॥੨॥
sansaar saagar ab outharae paarae ||2||
Now, I have been carried across the world-ocean. ||2||

ਪਤਿਤ ਪਾਵਨ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਬਿਰਦੁ ਬੇਦਿ ਲੇਖਿਆ ॥
pathith paavan prabh biradh baedh laekhiaa ||
It is God's Way to purify sinners, say the Vedas.

ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਸੋ ਨੈਨਹੁ ਪੇਖਿਆ ॥੩॥
paarabreham so nainahu paekhiaa ||3||
I have seen the Supreme Lord with my eyes. ||3||
~SGGS Ji p. 805​

ਸਿਮ੍ਰਿਤਿ ਸਾਸਤ੍ਰ ਬੇਦ ਪੁਰਾਣ ॥
simrith saasathr baedh puraan ||
The Simritees, Shaastras, Vedas and Puraanas

ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਕਾ ਕਰਹਿ ਵਖਿਆਣ ॥
paarabreham kaa karehi vakhiaan ||
expound upon the Supreme Lord God.
~SGGS Ji p. 867​

ਸਭਿ ਨਾਦ ਬੇਦ ਗੁਰਬਾਣੀ ॥
sabh naadh baedh gurabaanee ||
Gurbani is the sound current of the Naad, the Vedas, everything.

ਮਨੁ ਰਾਤਾ ਸਾਰਿਗਪਾਣੀ ॥
man raathaa saarigapaanee ||
My mind is attuned to the Lord of the Universe.
~SGGS Ji p. 879​

ਚਤੁਰ ਬੇਦ ਪੂਰਨ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਇ ॥
chathur baedh pooran har naae ||
The four Vedas are completely contained within the Lord's Name.

ਨਾਨਕ ਤਿਸ ਕੀ ਸਰਣੀ ਪਾਇ ॥੪॥੬॥੧੭॥
naanak this kee saranee paae ||4||6||17||
Nanak seeks His Sanctuary. ||4||6||17||
~SGGS Ji p. 888​

ਵਾਚੈ ਵਾਦੁ ਨ ਬੇਦੁ ਬੀਚਾਰੈ ॥
vaachai vaadh n baedh beechaarai ||
You study the arguments, but do not contemplate the Vedas.

ਆਪਿ ਡੁਬੈ ਕਿਉ ਪਿਤਰਾ ਤਾਰੈ ॥
aap ddubai kio pitharaa thaarai ||
You drown yourself - how will you save your ancestors?

ਘਟਿ ਘਟਿ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਚੀਨੈ ਜਨੁ ਕੋਇ ॥
ghatt ghatt breham cheenai jan koe ||
How rare is that person who realizes that God is in each and every heart.
~SGGS Ji p. 904​

ਵੇਦਾ ਮਹਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਉਤਮੁ ਸੋ ਸੁਣਹਿ ਨਾਹੀ ਫਿਰਹਿ ਜਿਉ ਬੇਤਾਲਿਆ ॥
vaedhaa mehi naam outham so sunehi naahee firehi jio baethaaliaa ||
In the Vedas, the ultimate objective is the Naam, the Name of the Lord; but they do not hear this, and they wander around like demons.

ਕਹੈ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਜਿਨ ਸਚੁ ਤਜਿਆ ਕੂੜੇ ਲਾਗੇ ਤਿਨੀ ਜਨਮੁ ਜੂਐ ਹਾਰਿਆ ॥੧੯॥
kehai naanak jin sach thajiaa koorrae laagae thinee janam jooai haariaa ||19||
Says Nanak, those who forsake Truth and cling to falsehood, lose their lives in the gamble. ||19||
~SGGS Ji p. 919​

ਓਅੰਕਾਰਿ ਬੇਦ ਨਿਰਮਏ ॥
ouankaar baedh nirameae ||
Ongkaar created the Vedas.
~SGGS Ji p. 929​

ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਸਾਸਤ੍ਰ ਸਿਮ੍ਰਿਤਿ ਬੇਦ ॥
guramukh saasathr simrith baedh ||
The Gurmukh understands the Simritees, the Shaastras and the Vedas.
~SGGS Ji p. 942​

ਸਾਸਤੁ ਬੇਦੁ ਨ ਮਾਨੈ ਕੋਇ ॥
saasath baedh n maanai koe ||
No one obeys the Shaastras or the Vedas.

ਆਪੋ ਆਪੈ ਪੂਜਾ ਹੋਇ ॥
aapo aapai poojaa hoe ||
Everyone worships himself.
~SGGS Ji p. 951​

ਜਿਹ ਮੁਖ ਬੇਦੁ ਗਾਇਤ੍ਰੀ ਨਿਕਸੈ ਸੋ ਕਿਉ ਬ੍ਰਹਮਨੁ ਬਿਸਰੁ ਕਰੈ ॥
jih mukh baedh gaaeithree nikasai so kio brehaman bisar karai ||
O Brahmin, how can you forget the One, from whose mouth the Vedas and the Gayitri prayer issured forth?

ਜਾ ਕੈ ਪਾਇ ਜਗਤੁ ਸਭੁ ਲਾਗੈ ਸੋ ਕਿਉ ਪੰਡਿਤੁ ਹਰਿ ਨ ਕਹੈ ॥੧॥
jaa kai paae jagath sabh laagai so kio panddith har n kehai ||1||
The whole world falls at His feet; why don't you chant the Name of that Lord, O Pandit? ||1||
~SGGS Ji p. 970​

ਕੋਟਿ ਕੋਟਿ ਤੇਤੀਸ ਧਿਆਇਓ ਹਰਿ ਜਪਤਿਆ ਅੰਤੁ ਨ ਪਾਇਆ ॥
kott kott thaethees dhhiaaeiou har japathiaa anth n paaeiaa ||
Millions and millions, three hundred thirty million gods meditate on Him; there is no end to those who meditate on the Lord.

ਬੇਦ ਪੁਰਾਣ ਸਿਮ੍ਰਿਤਿ ਹਰਿ ਜਪਿਆ ਮੁਖਿ ਪੰਡਿਤ ਹਰਿ ਗਾਇਆ ॥
baedh puraan simrith har japiaa mukh panddith har gaaeiaa ||
The Vedas, the Puraanas and the Simritees meditate on the Lord; the Pandits, the religious scholars, sing the Lord's Praises as well.

ਨਾਮੁ ਰਸਾਲੁ ਜਿਨਾ ਮਨਿ ਵਸਿਆ ਤੇ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਪਾਰਿ ਪਇਆ ॥੩॥
naam rasaal jinaa man vasiaa thae guramukh paar paeiaa ||3||
Those whose minds are filled with the Naam, the source of nectar - as Gurmukh, they cross over. ||3||
~SGGS Ji p. 995​

ਅਗਮ ਨਿਗਮੁ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਦਿਖਾਇਆ ॥
agam nigam sathiguroo dhikhaaeiaa ||
The True Guru has revealed the essence of the Shaastras and the Vedas.

ਕਰਿ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਅਪਨੈ ਘਰਿ ਆਇਆ ॥
kar kirapaa apanai ghar aaeiaa ||
In His Mercy, He has come into the home of my self.
~SGGS Ji p. 1016​

 

[Harjas Kaur Khalsa]

Gurbani does not say the Vedas, Simritis, and Puranas are disgusting and corrupt. How dare Sikhs do so. (More Gurbani quotes continued prt 4.)

ਹਰਿ ਆਗਿਆ ਹੋਏ ਬੇਦ ਪਾਪੁ ਪੁੰਨੁ ਵੀਚਾਰਿਆ ॥
har aagiaa hoeae baedh paap punn veechaariaa ||
By the Will of the Lord, the Vedas came into being; they discriminate between sin and virtue.

ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਬਿਸਨੁ ਮਹੇਸੁ ਤ੍ਰੈ ਗੁਣ ਬਿਸਥਾਰਿਆ ॥
brehamaa bisan mehaes thrai gun bisathhaariaa ||
You created Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva, and the expanse of the three qualities.
~SGGS Ji p. 1094​

ਜੋਗ ਭੇਖ ਸੰਨਿਆਸੈ ਪੇਖਿਓ ਜਤਿ ਜੰਗਮ ਕਾਪੜਾਏ ॥
jog bhaekh sanniaasai paekhiou jath jangam kaaparraaeae ||
I have seen Him among the Yogis, the Sannyaasees, the celibates, the wandering hermits and the wearers of patched coats.

ਤਪੀ ਤਪੀਸੁਰ ਮੁਨਿ ਮਹਿ ਪੇਖਿਓ ਨਟ ਨਾਟਿਕ ਨਿਰਤਾਏ ॥੨॥
thapee thapeesur mun mehi paekhiou natt naattik nirathaaeae ||2||
I have seen Him among the men of severe self-discipline, the silent sages, the actors, dramas and dances. ||2||

ਚਹੁ ਮਹਿ ਪੇਖਿਓ ਖਟ ਮਹਿ ਪੇਖਿਓ ਦਸ ਅਸਟੀ ਸਿੰਮ੍ਰਿਤਾਏ ॥
chahu mehi paekhiou khatt mehi paekhiou dhas asattee sinmrithaaeae ||
I have seen Him in the four Vedas, I have seen Him in the six Shaastras, in the eighteen Puraanas and the Simritees as well.

ਸਭ ਮਿਲਿ ਏਕੋ ਏਕੁ ਵਖਾਨਹਿ ਤਉ ਕਿਸ ਤੇ ਕਹਉ ਦੁਰਾਏ ॥੩॥
sabh mil eaeko eaek vakhaanehi tho kis thae keho dhuraaeae ||3||
All together, they declare that there is only the One Lord. So tell me, from whom is He hidden? ||3||
~SGGS Ji p. 1139​

ਨਾਨਕ ਸੋਧੇ ਸਿੰਮ੍ਰਿਤਿ ਬੇਦ ॥
naanak sodhhae sinmrith baedh ||
Nanak has studied the Simritees and the Vedas.

ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਗੁਰ ਨਾਹੀ ਭੇਦ ॥੪॥੧੧॥੨੪॥
paarabreham gur naahee bhaedh ||4||11||24||
There is no difference between the Supreme Lord God and the Guru. ||4||11||24||
~SGGS Ji p. 1142​

ਆਪੇ ਸਾਸਤੁ ਆਪੇ ਬੇਦੁ ॥
aapae saasath aapae baedh ||
He Himself is the Shaastras, and He Himself is the Vedas.

ਆਪੇ ਘਟਿ ਘਟਿ ਜਾਣੈ ਭੇਦੁ ॥
aapae ghatt ghatt jaanai bhaedh ||
He knows the secrets of each and every heart.

ਜੋਤਿ ਸਰੂਪ ਜਾ ਕੀ ਸਭ ਵਥੁ ॥
joth saroop jaa kee sabh vathh ||
He is the Embodiment of Light; all beings belong to Him.
~SGGS Ji p. 1150​

ਹਰਿ ਕੇ ਨਾਮ ਕੀ ਗਤਿ ਠਾਂਢੀ ॥
har kae naam kee gath thaandtee ||
The Name of the Lord is cooling and soothing.

ਬੇਦ ਪੁਰਾਨ ਸਿਮ੍ਰਿਤਿ ਸਾਧੂ ਜਨ ਖੋਜਤ ਖੋਜਤ ਕਾਢੀ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
baedh puraan simrith saadhhoo jan khojath khojath kaadtee ||1|| rehaao ||
Searching, searching the Vedas, the Puraanas and the Simritees, the Holy Saints have realized this. ||1||Pause||
~SGGS Ji p. 1219​

ਚਰਨ ਕਮਲ ਪ੍ਰੀਤਿ ਮਨੁ ਬੇਧਿਆ ਕਰਿ ਸਰਬਸੁ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਰਾਖੀ ॥੧॥
charan kamal preeth man baedhhiaa kar sarabas anthar raakhee ||1||
My mind is pierced through by the Love of Your Lotus Feet; this is everything to me - I enshrine it deep within my being. ||1||

ਬੇਦ ਪੁਰਾਨ ਸਿਮ੍ਰਿਤਿ ਸਾਧੂ ਜਨ ਇਹ ਬਾਣੀ ਰਸਨਾ ਭਾਖੀ ॥
baedh puraan simrith saadhhoo jan eih baanee rasanaa bhaakhee ||
In the Vedas, the Puraanas and the Simritees, the humble and the Holy chant this Bani with their tongues.
~SGGS Ji p. 1227​

ਸੋਭਾ ਤਾ ਕੀ ਅਪਰ ਅਪਾਰ ॥
sobhaa thaa kee apar apaar ||
His Glory is Infinite and Endless.

ਅਨਿਕ ਰੰਗ ਜਾ ਕੇ ਗਨੇ ਨ ਜਾਹਿ ॥
anik rang jaa kae ganae n jaahi ||
His many plays cannot be counted.

ਸੋਗ ਹਰਖ ਦੁਹਹੂ ਮਹਿ ਨਾਹਿ ॥੨॥
sog harakh dhuhehoo mehi naahi ||2||
He is not subject to pleasure or pain. ||2||

ਅਨਿਕ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੇ ਜਾ ਕੇ ਬੇਦ ਧੁਨਿ ਕਰਹਿ ॥
anik brehamae jaa kae baedh dhhun karehi ||
Many Brahmas vibrate Him in the Vedas.
~SGGS Ji p. 1235​

ਜੂਠਿ ਨ ਰਾਗਂ​*ੀ ਜੂਠਿ ਨ ਵੇਦਂ​*ੀ ॥
jooth n raaganaee jooth n vaedhanaee ||
Impurity does not come from music; impurity does not come from the Vedas.
~SGGS Ji p. 1240​

ਕਥਾ ਕਹਾਣੀ ਬੇਦਂ​*ੀ ਆਣੀ ਪਾਪੁ ਪੁੰਨੁ ਬੀਚਾਰੁ ॥
kathhaa kehaanee baedhanaee aanee paap punn beechaar ||
The Vedas bring forth stories and legends, and thoughts of vice and virtue.
~SGGS Ji p. 1243​

ਬੇਦੁ ਪੁਕਾਰੇ ਪੁੰਨੁ ਪਾਪੁ ਸੁਰਗ ਨਰਕ ਕਾ ਬੀਉ ॥
baedh pukaarae punn paap surag narak kaa beeo ||
The Vedas proclaim that vice and virtue are the seeds of heaven and hell.

ਜੋ ਬੀਜੈ ਸੋ ਉਗਵੈ ਖਾਂਦਾ ਜਾਣੈ ਜੀਉ ॥
jo beejai so ougavai khaandhaa jaanai jeeo ||
Whatever is planted, shall grow. The soul eats the fruits of its actions, and understands.

ਗਿਆਨੁ ਸਲਾਹੇ ਵਡਾ ਕਰਿ ਸਚੋ ਸਚਾ ਨਾਉ ॥
giaan salaahae vaddaa kar sacho sachaa naao ||
Whoever praises spiritual wisdom as great, becomes truthful in the True Name.
~SGGS Ji p. 1243​

ਇਕਿ ਕਹਿ ਜਾਣਹਿ ਕਹਿਆ ਬੁਝਹਿ ਤੇ ਨਰ ਸੁਘੜ ਸਰੂਪ ॥
eik kehi jaanehi kehiaa bujhehi thae nar sugharr saroop ||
Some know how to speak, and understand what they are told. They are wise and beautiful.

ਇਕਨਾ ਨਾਦ ਨ ਬੇਦ ਨ ਗੀਅ ਰਸੁ ਰਸ ਕਸ ਨ ਜਾਣੰਤਿ ॥
eikanaa naadh n baedh n geea ras ras kas n jaananth ||
Some do not understand about the Sound-current of the Naad or the Vedas, music, virtue or vice.

ਇਕਨਾ ਸੁਧਿ ਨ ਬੁਧਿ ਨ ਅਕਲਿ ਸਰ ਅਖਰ ਕਾ ਭੇਉ ਨ ਲਹੰਤਿ ॥
eikanaa sudhh n budhh n akal sar akhar kaa bhaeo n lehanth ||
Some are not blessed with understanding, intelligence, or sublime intellect; they do not grasp the mystery of God's Word.

ਨਾਨਕ ਸੇ ਨਰ ਅਸਲਿ ਖਰ ਜਿ ਬਿਨੁ ਗੁਣ ਗਰਬੁ ਕਰੰਤਿ ॥੨॥
naanak sae nar asal khar j bin gun garab karanth ||2||
O Nanak, they are donkeys; they are very proud of themselves, but they have no virtues at all. ||2||
~SGGS Ji p. 1246​

ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਤ੍ਰੈ ਗੁਣੀਆਂ ਬਿਸਥਾਰੁ ॥
guramukh thrai guneeaaan bisathhaar ||
The Gurmukh knows that the universe is the extension of the three gunas, the three dispositions.

ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਨਾਦ ਬੇਦ ਬੀਚਾਰੁ ॥
guramukh naadh baedh beechaar ||
The Gurmukh reflects on the Sound-current of the Naad, and the wisdom of the Vedas.
~SGGS Ji p. 1270​

ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਨਾਦੁ ਬੇਦੁ ਹੈ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਗੁਰ ਪਰਚੈ ਨਾਮੁ ਧਿਆਵੈਗੋ ॥
guramukh naadh baedh hai guramukh gur parachai naam dhhiaavaigo ||
The Guru's Word is the Sound-current of the Naad, The Guru's Word is the wisdom of the Vedas; coming in contact with the Guru, meditate on the Naam.
~SGGS Ji p. 1311​

ਗੁਨ ਨਾਦ ਧੁਨਿ ਅਨੰਦ ਬੇਦ ॥
gun naadh dhhun anandh baedh ||
The Glory of God is the Sound-current of the Naad, the Celestial Music of Bliss, and the Wisdom of the Vedas.

ਕਥਤ ਸੁਨਤ ਮੁਨਿ ਜਨਾ ਮਿਲਿ ਸੰਤ ਮੰਡਲੀ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
kathhath sunath mun janaa mil santh manddalee ||1|| rehaao ||
Speaking and listening, the silent sages and humble beings join together, in the Realm of the Saints. ||1||Pause||
~SGGS Ji p. 1322​

ਬੇਦ ਕਤੇਬ ਕਹਹੁ ਮਤ ਝੂਠੇ ਝੂਠਾ ਜੋ ਨ ਬਿਚਾਰੈ ॥
baedh kathaeb kehahu math jhoothae jhoothaa jo n bichaarai ||
Do not say that the Vedas, the Bible and the Koran are false. Those who do not contemplate them are false.
~SGGS Ji p. 1350​

ਧਰਨਿ ਗਗਨ ਨਵ ਖੰਡ ਮਹਿ ਜੋਤਿ ਸ੍ਵਰੂਪੀ ਰਹਿਓ ਭਰਿ ॥
dhharan gagan nav khandd mehi joth svaroopee rehiou bhar ||
He is totally pervading the earth, the sky and the nine regions of the planet. He is the Embodiment of the Light of God.

ਭਨਿ ਮਥੁਰਾ ਕਛੁ ਭੇਦੁ ਨਹੀ ਗੁਰੁ ਅਰਜੁਨੁ ਪਰਤਖ੍ਯ੍ਯ ਹਰਿ ॥੭॥੧੯॥
bhan mathhuraa kashh bhaedh nehee gur arajun parathakhy har ||7||19||
So speaks Mat'huraa: there is no difference between God and Guru; Guru Arjun is the Personification of the Lord Himself. ||7||19||

ਅਜੈ ਗੰਗ ਜਲੁ ਅਟਲੁ ਸਿਖ ਸੰਗਤਿ ਸਭ ਨਾਵੈ ॥
ajai gang jal attal sikh sangath sabh naavai ||
The stream of the Lord's Name flows like the Ganges, invincible and unstoppable. The Sikhs of the Sangat all bathe in it.

ਨਿਤ ਪੁਰਾਣ ਬਾਚੀਅਹਿ ਬੇਦ ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਮੁਖਿ ਗਾਵੈ ॥
nith puraan baacheeahi baedh brehamaa mukh gaavai ||
It appears as if the holy texts like the Puraanaas are being recited there and Brahma himself sings the Vedas.

ਅਜੈ ਚਵਰੁ ਸਿਰਿ ਢੁਲੈ ਨਾਮੁ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤੁ ਮੁਖਿ ਲੀਅਉ ॥
ajai chavar sir dtulai naam anmrith mukh leeao ||
The invincible chauri, the fly-brush, waves over His head; with His mouth, He drinks in the Ambrosial Nectar of the Naam.
~SGGS Ji p. 1409​

 

[pk70]

Yes, in the Vedas Om is defined as Parabrahm. In the Vaishnava Puranas it is defined as Trimurthi, as was explained in previous post.

Well by your own words, in Veda it is OM only, that Om was used to do the trade later on and a lot of stuff was added in to Vedas to run their business in religions. If Gurbani praises Vedas only that part where His simran was advocated not all other stuff, it was also said it( Veda) would not help you as they teach trade and, it is still going in Hindism,” do this thing and get that” as per Mehla-1, Mehla 2( quoted numerous times who cares). Then in Purana that OM is defined trimurthy, Vashnava or who ever, they stuck there and try to find that desperately in Guru Nanak’s definition about HIM. Forcing literally trimurthy on Him without any evidence, that shows what intentions they have.
look how the sanatan view is abused right before your eyes, and moderators talk about "fairness."
Well Bhain ji, I am not supporter of any group, what so ever, I find Gurbani being abused by you, you don’t feel about that, only that worries you is Sanatna or Hindus; you don’t even like to blame fanatic Hindus who play same dirty game as Fanatic Sikhs do. I blame both and you just pass by it because that is not your concern only. You questions MOD’s fairness, why don’t you see what you are doing? Using Bhai Gurdas at your convenient but when he promotes truth about Castes as per Guru ji, you still prefer to stick to one word” Sodhi” You should also read that part of History where Guru ji received anger from Hindu kings just because he was promoting low class equally. Digging out none sense that Gurus were married in high class but ignoring all that goes against Caste in Gurbani and in Bhai Gurdas ji’s writings. Is it fairness, if we are not fair what right we have to ask for fairness? You called Guru Nanak Vashnava, I shall prove even Kabir ji didn’t follow that Vashnava as per his writings, history is totally vague about him but some just trying to label him with and that even by ignoring his writings( as you did showing no respect what Guru Nanak says about his own enlightenment). Please wait I shall show you how he looks at all those avataras you advocate for Sikhs to follow.

 

[pk70]

As you have read a lot about these things, kindly quote from Atharva Vedas, Shiv puran, Grur Puran, Aatam Puran, manu simiriti part 3rd slok 13, part 5 slok 155, see how they tell disgusting tales
Why pick and choose policy to drag Sikhism to old mist? Do we have those kinds of disgusting stories in Guru Granth Sahib ji then why even it is being compared with those Bhain ji?. In fact what you are doing is that simple, you are comparing a pure gold with contaminated one.
What I have is "Disgusting." "Contaminated." You have the "Gold." Amazing prejudice. Amazing distortion of the truth. And all in the name of a fair and respectful spiritual discussion. FYI, it's not a "pick and choose" policy which takes one to Vedas, Upanishads and Puranas for clarity of definition. But the fact that clarity of understanding is sought for the terms and concepts which are in Gurbani. It is the study of Gurbani which leads to study of the other scriptures. Gurbani does not say the Vedas, Simritis, and Puranas are disgusting and corrupt. How dare Sikhs do so! (Gurbani quotes will prove this.)

Not really, Gurbani also warns about that those scriptures saying they would not help, Vedas taught trade (quotes were given numerous times, you ignore as usual),
Let’s define disgusting and contaminated aspect of those scriptures and I used word Gold for Guru Granth Sahib, you also have that, haven’t you? Or you just cannot accept that praise of Guru Granth Sahib? If not prove me if any obscenity, human sacrifice and porno level stories recorded in SGGS Ji, if you don’t find, it is pure Gold without contamination. Vedas were not written by any one or two persons. Good stuff found in Vedas was corrupted time to time. Even Bhagwat Geeta speaks against them because of that part.. That is the reason I used“contaminated” word. When purity is mixed with some thing, we call it contaminated. You are taking it as personal; I wonder why you do that. When Sikh80 wrote” Gurbani doesn’t make any sense” Bhain ji, you didn’t say a word; now you have taken the right word as a curse. I can wonder only!!!!!!
Why I am saying pick and chose policy? Bhain ji, You are quoting all that stuff just to support that you are right in advocacy of Vedas, Sanatana and Vashnava.; being a fair reader, in stead of getting too highly sympathizer with those only, you should also quote those dirty stories filled with obscenity and human sacrifices. I mentioned their names like Shiv Puran etc, you can find and bring it here, then we will see how pure or worth they are to guide others to spirituality.
The Gurbani quotes you filled your post with are one liner, read them in context of whole Shabadas, message is different, understand one thing, when Mehla 1 and Mehla 2 say” Vedas teach trade, only Guru talks about Knowledge about Him” that makes it clear that even if there were something good about the Creator in there, it was molded by Brahmans to run their religious business, that thing was also said by writer of Bhagwat Geeta. So don’t abuse Gurbani for that cause which was made clear by Guru himself please.

Please wait for those Shabadas which do not support you at all.

 

[spnadmin]

An interesting perspective by Nihang Sukha Singh Akaali

(with the audio and katha available at this site http://hukam.sikhnet.com/2007/10/25/hukamnama-translation-october-25-2007)

jYqsrI bwxI Bgqw kI (710-14)
jaitsaree banee bhagtaa kee (710-14)
Jaitsree, The Word Of The devotees: (710-14)


<> siqgur pRswid ]
ik-oNkaar satgur parsaad.
One Continuous God, Eternal, True, Divine Enlightener, Merciful, Guru’s Grace.


nwQ kCUA n jwnau ]
naath kachhoo-a na jaan-o.
O my Lord and Master, I know nothing.


mnu mwieAw kY hwiQ ibkwnau ]1] rhwau ]
man maa-i-aa kai haath bikaana-o. ||1|| rahaa-o.
My mind has sold out, and is in Maya’s hands. ||1||Pause||

qum khIAq hO jgq gur suAwmI ]
tum kahee-at hou jagat gur su-aamee.
You are called the Lord and Master, the Guru of the World.


hm khIAq kiljug ky kwmI ]1]
ham kahee-at kalijug kay kaamee. ||1||
I am called a lustful being of the Dark Age of Kali Yuga. ||1||

ien pMcn myro mnu ju ibgwirE ]
in panchan mayro man jo bigaari-o.
The five vices have corrupted my mind.


plu plu hir jI qy AMqru pwirE ]2]
pal pal har jee tay antar paari-o. ||2||
Moment by moment, they lead me further away from the Lord. ||2||

jq dyKau qq duK kI rwsI ]
jat daykh-a-u tat dukh kee raasee.
Wherever I look, I see loads of pain and suffering.


AjON n piqAwie ingm Bey swKI ]3]
ajouN na pat-yaa-ay nigam bha-ay saakhee. ||3||
I do not have faith, even though the Vedas bear witness to the Lord. ||3||

goqm nwir aumwpiq suAwmI ] sIsu Drin shs Bg gWmI ]4]
gotam naar umaapat savaamee. sees Dharan sahas bhag gaaNmee. ||4||
Shiva cut off Brahma’s head, and Gautam’s wife and the Lord Indra mated; Brahma’s head got stuck to Shiva’s hand, and Indra came to bear the marks of a thousand female organs. ||4||

ien dUqn Klu bDu kir mwirE ]
in dootan khal baDh kar maari-o.
These demons have fooled, bound and destroyed me.


bfo inlwju AjhU nhI hwirE ]5]
bado nilaaj ajhoo nahee haari-o. ||5||
I am very shameless - even now, I am not tired of them. ||5||

kih rivdws khw kYsy kIjY ]
kahi ravidaas kahaa kaisay keejai.
Says Ravi Daas, what am I to do now?


ibnu rGunwQ srin kw kI lIjY ]6]1]
bin raghunaath saran kaa kee leejai. ||6||1||
Without the Sanctuary of the Lord’s Protection, who else’s should I seek? ||6||1||

Text of katha by Sukha Singh ji follows:

"Bhagat Ravidasji talks to us today in the Jaitsree Raag. A raag in which there is intense longing to be one with the All Mighty, to be one with the great Waheguru. The longing is so great that is burns. In this raag Bhagat Ravidasji says, “Ik-oNkaar”, there is one universal, creative, nourishing and destructive being. The ik-oNkaar is found through satgur parsaad; through the true Guru’s, satgur’s, grace, parsaad.



'After this mangla charan, this beginning Bhagat Ravidasji says, “Naath kachhoo-a na jaan-o.” Naath, Oh my Lord, Oh my husband, Oh my master, kachhoo means anything, na means to not, jaan-o means to know. I do not know anything, I know nothing. Bhagat Ravdasji is crying out saying, “Oh my lord I don’t know anything, I know nothing.” “Man maa-i-aa kai haath bikaana-o. rahaa-o.” Man; my mind, maa-i-aa kai haath means the hands of the illusion of this world, bikaana-o means to be sold. My mind has been sold out, to what? To this illusion and now my mind is under the control of this illusion, is in the hands of this illusion around me. Rahaa-o. Bhagatji says “Pause and think about this.”



' “Tum kahee-at hou jagat gur su-aamee.” Oh Waheguru, tum kahee-at hou; you are called, jagat gur means the Guru of the world, the teacher of the world, the su-aamee, the lord and master. But then Bhagatji says, “Ham kahee-at kalijug kay kaamee.” Ham kahee-at means I am called, kaamee means lustful, desirefilled. But I am merely a lustfilled, desirefilled being in this kalijug; in this dark jug, in this age of darkness.



' “In panchan mayro man jo bigaari-o.” In means these, panchan means five, mayro means mine, man means mind, bigaari-o means to be corrupted. These five vices, which five? Kaam; lust, Krodh; anger, Lobh; greed, Moh; attachment and Ahnkaar; ego. These five vices have bigaari-o, have corrupted my mind, polluted my mind. “Pal pal har jee tay antar paari-o.” Pal-pal, moment by moment, instant by instant, har jee tay; from Waheguruji, from my Hari, antar means my inside, paari-o means to tear away, to rip away. Moment by moment, instant by instant, these five vices are leading my away from Waheguruji, they are tearing me apart from Waheguruji.



' Then Bhagatji says, “Jat daykh-a-u tat dukh kee raasee.” Jat means wherever, daykh-a-u means to look, wherever I look tat; in that place dukh kee raasee, I see raasee which means a treasure. There is so much treasure. But what is this a treasure of though? Bhagatji says, “Dukh kee; of pain.” Bhagatji says, “Wherever I look I see so much pain, I see so much suffering but what does my mind do? AjouN na pat-yaa-ay nigam bha-ay saakhee.” AjouN means even then, na pat-yaa-ay means to not believe, to not understand. Even then my mind doesn’t understand, doesn’t wake up from this illusion. “Nigam bha-ay saakhee.” Even though the Nigams, the Vedas and all of the scriptures through out the ages tell me not to fall into these five vices but my mind still doesn’t listen.



' “Gotam naar umaapat savaamee. sees Dharan sahas bhag gaaNmee.” Then Bhagatji gives some examples from Indian methology about being fallen from grace. Bhagatji says, “Gotam naar.” There was a saint called Gautam and his wife’s name was Ahalia, naar means the wife of. The wife of Gautam, Ahalia, had fallen prey to desire with the king of the God’s, of the Devtay Indar’s in Indian methology. What Bhagatji is saying is, “Gotam naar; the wife of such a saint was prey to Kaam, to lust, umaapat savaamee.” Umaa is talking about Parvati, who was the wife of Shiva, pat means husband, savaame means Lord. Even Shiva was enticed away from his meditation through lust. According to Indian mythology when the world was churned up all the universes were churned up there was an incarnation of Vishnu called Mohni who was so beautiful that she enticed Shivaji away from his meditation. “Sees Dharan sahas bhag gaaNmee.” Brahma who is known as the creative being in the Indian methology, also fell prey to lust over his own daughter, according to the mythology. Sees Dharan means he created five heads for himself out of that lust to look at his daughter, according to the methology. “Sahas bhag gaaNmee.” Bhag is the female genital organ. What is said is that when the king of the Gods, Indra, had sexual relationships with the wife of Gautam he was cursed by Gautam to have all his body covered in the female organs. Now what Bhagatji is saying in all of this by giving these examples is that, “All these beings have fallen prey to these desires. Look how they have fallen down.” Bhagatji is saying. This is not a worship of those beings. Do not get confused. Bhagatji is showing their weaknesses and saying, “These weaknesses are in us as well.” That’s why Bhagatji has mentioned this. "



Then Bhagatji says, “In dootan khal baDh kar maari-o.” In dootan; these demons, Bhagatji calls the five vices “these demons”, khal baDh means to tie me up, kar maari-o which means to break down, to beat. These vices, they have bound me down, they have beaten me. “Bado nilaaj ajhoo nahee haari-o.” Bhagatji says, “What are we like? We are Bado nilaaj; we are shameless.” Nilaaj means to have no shame, ajhoo; even now, nahee; we do not, haari-o; get tired. We don’t get tired of falling into desire, anger, attachment, greed and ego.



In the last line Bhagatji says, “Kahi ravidaas kahaa kaisay keejai.” kahi ravidaas means Ravidas says, kahaa kaisay keejai means what can I do now, what shall I do now? What is there left to do? Bhagatji answers all of the questions with one line, “Bin raghunaath saran kaa kee leejai.” Bin; Without raghunaath; without Waheguruji’s saran; Waheguru’s sanctuary, Waheguru’s protection kaa kee leejai; whose else’s protection should I seek? Bhagatji says, “I fall at your feet, Oh Waheguru, I know I know nothing and I know I am full of sins but I have no where else to go. You are the redeemer, you are my beloved and I ask you to destroy all these sins from within me and bless me with your grace.”

 

[Harjas Kaur Khalsa]

Well by your own words, in Veda it is OM only, that Om was used to do the trade later on and a lot of stuff was added in to Vedas to run their business in religions. If Gurbani praises Vedas only that part where His simran was advocated not all other stuff, it was also said it( Veda) would not help you as they teach trade and, it is still going in Hindism,” do this thing and get that” as per Mehla-1, Mehla 2( quoted numerous times who cares). Then in Purana that OM is defined trimurthy, Vashnava or who ever, they stuck there and try to find that desperately in Guru Nanak’s definition about HIM. Forcing literally trimurthy on Him without any evidence, that shows what intentions they have.

First, about the issue of "trade" in Gurbani. By your phrase: "If Gurbani praises Vedas only that part where His simran was advocated not all other stuff, it was also said it( Veda) would not help you as they teach trade and, it is still going in Hindism.” Are you unable to see the prejudice in this viewpoint? Are you really unable to see that the entire issue has been one of addressing the incredible and unsupportable hostility Sikhs have for Hinduism based on radical misinterpretations of Gurbani like these?

As has been pointed out, there is nothing so corrupted or hypocritical within the Hindu religion that hasn't also found it's way in the Sikh religion. So please, for the 99th time, PLEASE stop trying to judge the demerits of Hinduism as if this were it's only definition.


Does it occur to you that Gurbani doesn't speak in a derogatory way about "trade" in the way you infer? For example, lets look at the Gurbani:

ਹਰਿ ਭਗਤਾ ਹਰਿ ਧਨੁ ਰਾਸਿ ਹੈ ਗੁਰ ਪੂਛਿ ਕਰਹਿ ਵਾਪਾਰੁ ॥
har bhagathaa har dhhan raas hai gur pooshh karehi vaapaar ||
The devotees of the Lord have the Wealth and Capital of the Lord; with Guru's Advice, they carry on their trade.

ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਸਲਾਹਨਿ ਸਦਾ ਸਦਾ ਵਖਰੁ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਅਧਾਰੁ ॥
har naam salaahan sadhaa sadhaa vakhar har naam adhhaar ||
They praise the Name of the Lord forever and ever. The Name of the Lord is their Merchandise and Support.

ਗੁਰਿ ਪੂਰੈ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਦ੍ਰਿੜਾਇਆ ਹਰਿ ਭਗਤਾ ਅਤੁਟੁ ਭੰਡਾਰੁ ॥੧॥
gur poorai har naam dhrirraaeiaa har bhagathaa athutt bhanddaar ||1||
The Perfect Guru has implanted the Name of the Lord into the Lord's devotees; it is an Inexhaustible Treasure. ||1||
~SGGS Ji p. 28​

Is "trade" in the above context negative? No! In fact, it is used to illustrate something positive, like spiritual investment.

ਵਸਤੁ ਲਹੈ ਘਰਿ ਆਪਣੈ ਚਲੈ ਕਾਰਜੁ ਸਾਰਿ ॥
vasath lehai ghar aapanai chalai kaaraj saar ||
He finds the merchandise within his own home, and departs after arranging his affairs.

ਵਣਜਾਰਿਆ ਸਿਉ ਵਣਜੁ ਕਰਿ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਬੀਚਾਰਿ ॥੩॥
vanajaariaa sio vanaj kar guramukh breham beechaar ||3||
So trade with the true traders, and as Gurmukh, contemplate God. ||3||
~SGGS Ji p. 56​

Don't you see how endlessly ridiculous it is for you to ignore dozens and dozens of positive tuuks in Gurbani with speak positively of Vedas, Smritis and Puranas and warn NOT to speak bad of them, yet you continue to accuse Vedas themselves, as written documents, "of trade." Can't you even see logically, that "trade" in this context is something the human beings are doing and not the scriptures themselves?

ਧਰਮ ਸੇਤੀ ਵਾਪਾਰੁ ਨ ਕੀਤੋ ਕਰਮੁ ਨ ਕੀਤੋ ਮਿਤੁ ॥
dhharam saethee vaapaar n keetho karam n keetho mith ||
You have not traded in righteousness and Dharma; you have not made good deeds your friends.
~SGGS Ji p. 75​

So we can even find tuuks in Gurbani which are telling us to trade... but in the right spiritual context. Therefore it must be determined, that "trade" is something altogether neutral, and depends on the "intention" of the person. And if we judge in this context, the negativity you impugn against ALL Hindus and against ALL Hindu scriptures, must be carefully weighed by every individual, including Sikhs who may be guilty of the same insincerity. So we cannot judge as wholly negative, Hinduism and Hindu scriptures and Hindu people, without first examining the intentions of OUR own hearts.

ਧਨੁ ਧਨੁ ਵਣਜੁ ਵਾਪਾਰੀਆ ਜਿਨ ਵਖਰੁ ਲਦਿਅੜਾ ਹਰਿ ਰਾਸਿ ॥
dhhan dhhan vanaj vaapaareeaa jin vakhar ladhiarraa har raas ||
Blessed, blessed is the trade of those traders who have loaded the merchandise of the Wealth of the Lord.
~SGGS Ji p. 82​

ਸਚਾ ਸਾਹੁ ਸਚੇ ਵਣਜਾਰੇ ॥
sachaa saahu sachae vanajaarae ||
True is the Banker, and true are His traders.

ਸਚੁ ਵਣੰਜਹਿ ਗੁਰ ਹੇਤਿ ਅਪਾਰੇ ॥
sach vananjehi gur haeth apaarae ||
They purchase Truth, with infinite love for the Guru.

ਸਚੁ ਵਿਹਾਝਹਿ ਸਚੁ ਕਮਾਵਹਿ ਸਚੋ ਸਚੁ ਕਮਾਵਣਿਆ ॥੪॥
sach vihaajhehi sach kamaavehi sacho sach kamaavaniaa ||4||
They deal in Truth, and they practice Truth. They earn Truth, and only Truth. ||4||
~SGGS Ji p. 117​

ਇਕਿ ਰਤਨ ਪਦਾਰਥ ਵਣਜਦੇ ਇਕਿ ਕਚੈ ਦੇ ਵਾਪਾਰਾ ॥
eik rathan padhaarathh vanajadhae eik kachai dhae vaapaaraa ||
Some trade in priceless jewels, while others deal in mere glass.
~SGGS Ji p. 141​

ਹੋਰੁ ਵਣਜੁ ਕਰਹਿ ਵਾਪਾਰੀਏ ਅਨੰਤ ਤਰੰਗੀ ਦੁਖੁ ਮਾਇਆ ॥
hor vanaj karehi vaapaareeeae ananth tharangee dhukh maaeiaa ||
Those traders who trade in other merchandise, are caught up in the endless waves of the pain of Maya.
~SGGS Ji p. 165​

ਮਾਣਸ ਖਾਣੇ ਕਰਹਿ ਨਿਵਾਜ ॥
maanas khaanae karehi nivaaj ||
The man-eaters say their prayers.

ਛੁਰੀ ਵਗਾਇਨਿ ਤਿਨ ਗਲਿ ਤਾਗ ॥
shhuree vagaaein thin gal thaag ||
Those who wield the knife wear the sacred thread around their necks.

ਤਿਨ ਘਰਿ ਬ੍ਰਹਮਣ ਪੂਰਹਿ ਨਾਦ ॥
thin ghar brehaman poorehi naadh ||
In their homes, the Brahmins sound the conch.

ਉਨ੍ਹ੍ਹਾ ਭਿ ਆਵਹਿ ਓਈ ਸਾਦ ॥
ounhaa bh aavehi ouee saadh ||
They too have the same taste.

ਕੂੜੀ ਰਾਸਿ ਕੂੜਾ ਵਾਪਾਰੁ ॥
koorree raas koorraa vaapaar ||
False is their capital, and false is their trade.

ਕੂੜੁ ਬੋਲਿ ਕਰਹਿ ਆਹਾਰੁ ॥
koorr bol karehi aahaar ||
Speaking falsehood, they take their food.

ਸਰਮ ਧਰਮ ਕਾ ਡੇਰਾ ਦੂਰਿ ॥
saram dhharam kaa ddaeraa dhoor ||
The home of modesty and Dharma is far from them.

ਨਾਨਕ ਕੂੜੁ ਰਹਿਆ ਭਰਪੂਰਿ ॥
naanak koorr rehiaa bharapoor ||
O Nanak, they are totally permeated with falsehood.

ਮਥੈ ਟਿਕਾ ਤੇੜਿ ਧੋਤੀ ਕਖਾਈ ॥
mathhai ttikaa thaerr dhhothee kakhaaee ||
The sacred marks are on their foreheads, and the saffron loin-cloths are around their waists;

ਹਥਿ ਛੁਰੀ ਜਗਤ ਕਾਸਾਈ ॥
hathh shhuree jagath kaasaaee ||
in their hands they hold the knives - they are the butchers of the world!
~SGGS Ji p. 471​

As Gurbani shows, the insincere person of evil intent, even if he has the appearance of holiness and pretends to be a brahmin, while acting against justice, while acting against righteous dharma, to oppress others, this kind of person has the false trade, and not the spiritual trade. Are we to blindly imply that this refers to every brahmin? Is every brahmin being described by this description?

ਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਬਿੰਦੇ ਸੋ ਬ੍ਰਾਹਮਣੁ ਕਹੀਐ ਜਿ ਅਨਦਿਨੁ ਹਰਿ ਲਿਵ ਲਾਏ ॥
breham bindhae so braahaman keheeai j anadhin har liv laaeae ||
One who understands God, who lovingly centers his mind on the Lord night and day, is called a Brahmin.

ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਪੁਛੈ ਸਚੁ ਸੰਜਮੁ ਕਮਾਵੈ ਹਉਮੈ ਰੋਗੁ ਤਿਸੁ ਜਾਏ ॥
sathigur pushhai sach sanjam kamaavai houmai rog this jaaeae ||
Consulting the True Guru, he practices Truth and self-restraint, and he is rid of the disease of ego.

ਹਰਿ ਗੁਣ ਗਾਵੈ ਗੁਣ ਸੰਗ੍ਰਹੈ ਜੋਤੀ ਜੋਤਿ ਮਿਲਾਏ ॥
har gun gaavai gun sangrehai jothee joth milaaeae ||
He sings the Glorious Praises of the Lord, and gathers in His Praises; his light is blended with the Light.

ਇਸੁ ਜੁਗ ਮਹਿ ਕੋ ਵਿਰਲਾ ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਗਿਆਨੀ ਜਿ ਹਉਮੈ ਮੇਟਿ ਸਮਾਏ ॥
eis jug mehi ko viralaa breham giaanee j houmai maett samaaeae ||
In this world, one who knows God is very rare; eradicating ego, he is absorbed in God.
~SGGS Ji p. 512
​

So we can see from Gurbani there are 2 kinds of brahmins. A righteous brahmin, and an unrighteous brahmin. The righteous brahmin is devoted to God and is not even limited to a caste designation, and the evil brahmin is hereditary only, has no devotion to God, and uses his political advantage to do unrighteous and unjust deeds to oppress others.

So it is by the intention of the heart, and by the actions we are judged for who we really are. No religious pretense of holiness will fool Guru, and this message is as relevant for Sikhs as it is for Hindu caste of brahmins. Realistically, just to be a brahmin doesn't mean you aren't poor or economically disadvantaged. Just to be a brahmin doesn't mean you are fake and insincere. Guruji's message was addressing corruptions of insight, to teach authentic spirituality. And we go away from authentic spirituality when we judge falsely and make unjust accusations against an entire religion, or entire teachings of a religion, or hostile devaluation, and denigration of scriptures of Hinduism, contrary to meaning of Gurbani.

ਕੋਟਿ ਮਧੇ ਕੋ ਵਿਰਲਾ ਸੇਵਕੁ ਹੋਰਿ ਸਗਲੇ ਬਿਉਹਾਰੀ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
kott madhhae ko viralaa saevak hor sagalae biouhaaree ||1|| rehaao ||
Out of millions, hardly anyone is a servant of the Lord. All the others are mere traders. ||1||Pause||

ਸਾਸਤ ਬੇਦ ਸਿਮ੍ਰਿਤਿ ਸਭਿ ਸੋਧੇ ਸਭ ਏਕਾ ਬਾਤ ਪੁਕਾਰੀ ॥
saasath baedh simrith sabh sodhhae sabh eaekaa baath pukaaree ||
I have searched all the Shaastras, the Vedas and the Simritees, and they all affirm one thing:

ਬਿਨੁ ਗੁਰ ਮੁਕਤਿ ਨ ਕੋਊ ਪਾਵੈ ਮਨਿ ਵੇਖਹੁ ਕਰਿ ਬੀਚਾਰੀ ॥੨॥
bin gur mukath n kooo paavai man vaekhahu kar beechaaree ||2||
without the Guru, no one obtains liberation; see, and reflect upon this in your mind. ||2||
~SGGS Ji p. 495
​

Hardly anyone... is a true servant... a true disciple... these are the fake traders. And it isn't something Hindu's alone have a problem with, (for some reason Sikhs keep condemning Hindu religion as fake), but it is a problem of the whole world. Everyone, including Sikhs has to confront the ways in which our own spirituality is compromised. We can't keep "blaming brahmins," or "blaming Hindus," or "blaming Vedas." It's an issue of authentic spirituality versus inauthentic. It is NOT "us" against "them."

ਸਭਿ ਨਾਦ ਬੇਦ ਗੁਰਬਾਣੀ ॥
sabh naadh baedh gurabaanee ||
Gurbani is the sound current of the Naad, the Vedas, everything.

ਮਨੁ ਰਾਤਾ ਸਾਰਿਗਪਾਣੀ ॥
man raathaa saarigapaanee ||
My mind is attuned to the Lord of the Universe.
~SGGS Ji p. 879​

Gurbani itself affirms the role of Vedas. They do not lead to liberation. They TELL of how to obtain liberation. So worldly-minded scholars who think only the study will save them are self-deceived. Hypocritical and evil-minded religious pretenders are also self-deceived. But Guruji says in many places good things also about Vedas. Gurbani even says Gurbani contains the sound current of the Naad, Primal Shabad, and the Vedas. So how can we continue with the deception that Vedas are something evil?

ਵੇਦਾ ਮਹਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਉਤਮੁ ਸੋ ਸੁਣਹਿ ਨਾਹੀ ਫਿਰਹਿ ਜਿਉ ਬੇਤਾਲਿਆ ॥
vaedhaa mehi naam outham so sunehi naahee firehi jio baethaaliaa ||
In the Vedas, the ultimate objective is the Naam, the Name of the Lord; but they do not hear this, and they wander around like demons.
~SGGS Ji p. 919​

All Gurbani is saying, repeatedly in many places, is don't be deceived by the form of religion and missing the power and reality of it.

Well Bhain ji, I am not supporter of any group, what so ever, I find Gurbani being abused by you, you don’t feel about that, only that worries you is Sanatna or Hindus; you don’t even like to blame fanatic Hindus who play same dirty game as Fanatic Sikhs do. I blame both and you just pass by it because that is not your concern only. You questions MOD’s fairness, why don’t you see what you are doing? Using Bhai Gurdas at your convenient but when he promotes truth about Castes as per Guru ji, you still prefer to stick to one word” Sodhi” You should also read that part of History where Guru ji received anger from Hindu kings just because he was promoting low class equally. Digging out none sense that Gurus were married in high class but ignoring all that goes against Caste in Gurbani and in Bhai Gurdas ji’s writings. Is it fairness, if we are not fair what right we have to ask for fairness?

How am I not fair veer ji? In all these threads people are making derogatory comments about sanatana Dharma as being ONLY defined by corruption, obscenity, indecency, deliberate distortion and denial of the actual teachings, accusing me of having idiotic opinions and "abusing Gurbani" merely to cite it, etc. I do not disrespect the opposing viewpoint this way. So why am I unfair simply not to agree with your interpretation? Because I don't agree with your viewpoint it's justifiable to abuse and discriminate against mine? I think you need to re-evaluate your moral stance, if this is what you're saying. Because any position which justifies unfairness and discrimination against a particular viewpoint is propagandistic and unspiritual. I point out the flaws and extremism within Sikhism precisely because these attitudes of negativity and hostility are threatening to destroy what is actually beautiful about Sikhi, the religion of tolerance and brotherhood. It's like a mirror, take a good look, because Sikh communities aren't exempt from the same corruptions and indecencies they accuse as being the very definition of Hindu religion. Sikhs need to be honest and fair about Hindu religion, and about the Vedantic relationship to teachings found in Gurbani. There is NO EXCUSE for Sikhs to have such a juvenile attitude of hostility and abusiveness to Hinduism. It's unjust, and it's untrue. Be a spiritual person and look at the good things instead of complaining so much about ONLY the bad. If the rest of the world community ONLY see's the Sikhs as the BAD things, you get upset, and feel offended. This is the mirror. STOP PAINTING HINDU DHARAM AS ONLY THE WORST AND MOST EXAGGERATED EVILS! I ask you in the name of justice. Evaluate the religion by the teachings themselves, not by the foolish people who become corrupted. This is no way to have a discussion by attacking only the worst qualities in Hindus. You don't defend Sikhi this way, you destroy it.

Is this unfair? You don't think this is fair? There has been nothing on this forum but unmitigated propaganda against Hindu religion, even to exaggerated and deliberate distortions of it's teachings in order to promote a negative attitude toward it. SO why, if I'm trying to break through barriers of hostility and rejection to even fair analysis of Vedantic thought in Gurbani, and how historically it has been alienated from Sikhism would it prove anything to keep bashing Hinduism? The balance and fairness should be, can we see the Hindus and Sikhs as EQUALS? Can we see that Sikhs have bad and Hindus have good? That's the balance, because the unrelenting picture on the forum at this time is unqualified EVIL of Hindu religion, and unquestioned assumption of RIGHTEOUSNESS in Sikhism.

So let's be honest with the truth. Hindu religion is no more corrupted and evil than Sikh Gurdwaras who rob money from the sangat. If we're going to judge on the basis of "DISGUSTING CORRUPTIONS, INDECENCY, OBSCENITY" It's a door that swings BOTH WAYS. Discriminate against me if you wish. But at least be honest about the fact that censoring my opinions is discrimination.

You called Guru Nanak Vashnava, I shall prove even Kabir ji didn’t follow that Vashnava as per his writings, history is totally vague about him but some just trying to label him with and that even by ignoring his writings( as you did showing no respect what Guru Nanak says about his own enlightenment).

Does it occur to you that Guru Nanak Dev Ji was born in a Hindu family? Does it occur to you that North India at time of Guru Nanak was undergoing a huge Vaishnava reform movement? Does it occur to you that mere mention of Das Avataaras is Vaishnavism? Because Vaishnavism is the only Hindu school that teaches God is One Supreme and manifested in Das Avataaras. It's not a disrespect to point out the obvious.

Was Guruji enlightened? Without doubt. But simply to be enlightened doesn't mean every teaching was His own and not rooted in ancient truths. It doesn't speak against His enlightenment to accept His own acknowledgment that Guru is the wisdom of the Vedas.

Kabir japped Raam, Raam. It is the Vaishnava school which japs Raam, Raam. His teacher was Ramanand, who was also a Vaishnava. The Kabir Panthis of today consider Kabir a Vaishnava. So what is the point veer ji?

Here is a link where scholars call Ramanandis the largest and most important Vaishnav monastic Order in North India.
Reinventing Ramanand: Caste and History in Gangetic India

Ramanandis

The followers of Ramananda are the Ramanandis. They are well-known in upper Hindusthan. They are a branch of the Ramanuja sect. They offer their worship to Lord Rama, Sita, Lakshmana and Hanuman. Ramananda was a disciple of Ramanuja. He flourished at Varanasi about the beginning of the fourteenth century. His followers are numerous in the Ganga valley of India. Their favourite work is the ‘Bhakti-Mala’. Their sectarian marks are like those of the Ramanujas. The Vairagis are the ascetics among the Ramanandis. Vaishnavism: Devotion to Vishnu - ReligionFacts

This Vaishnava denomination has played an important role in shaping the social and spiritual climate of the populous Ganges valley. The Ramanandi movement owes its origin to the saint Ramananda, who lived in Varanasi in the 14th century, and influenced such popular Indian saints like Tulsidas and Kabir among others. 1It is one of the largest and most egalitarian Hindu sects around the Gangetic plains, and its ascetic wing constitutes the largest Vaishnava monastic order and may possibly be the largest monastic order in all of India. [2] Ramanandi sect - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Please wait I shall show you how he looks at all those avataras you advocate for Sikhs to follow.

First, I don't advocate for Sikhs to follow anybody. Don't propagandistically put words in my mouth and accuse me of something like this. I am analyzing the Gurbani and analyzing the history, and I find it fascinating that there exists this whole other hidden history within Sikhism which is suppressed by the mainstream Sikh institutions. If we are Sikhs of Guru, then Gurmat is whatever Guru's words are. So how by looking at Guru's words, does this make me an advocate for Sikhs to follow something else? Explain this entire pauri praising the Das Avataaras as Supreme Lord, and calling the God Jagganath Gopal, and Parabrahm, while saying God has 4 arms, carries conch, chakr, mace, which is obvious description of Vishnu. Worship of Vishnu and Vishnu avataars as sargun saroop of the Supreme One All-pervading God = Vaishnavism. Thank you veer ji.

ਮਾਰੂ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ॥
maaroo mehalaa 5 ||
Maaroo, Fifth Mehl: 5

ਅਚੁਤ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਪਰਮੇਸੁਰ ਅੰਤਰਜਾਮੀ ॥
achuth paarabreham paramaesur antharajaamee ||
The Supreme Lord God is imperishable, the Transcendent Lord, the Inner-knower, the Searcher of hearts.

ਮਧੁਸੂਦਨ ਦਾਮੋਦਰ ਸੁਆਮੀ ॥
madhhusoodhan dhaamodhar suaamee ||
He is the Slayer of demons, our Supreme Lord and Master.

ਰਿਖੀਕੇਸ ਗੋਵਰਧਨ ਧਾਰੀ ਮੁਰਲੀ ਮਨੋਹਰ ਹਰਿ ਰੰਗਾ ॥੧॥
rikheekaes govaradhhan dhhaaree muralee manohar har rangaa ||1||
The Supreme Rishi, the Master of the sensory organs, the uplifter of mountains, the joyful Lord playing His enticing flute. ||1||

ਮੋਹਨ ਮਾਧਵ ਕ੍ਰਿਸ੍ਨ ਮੁਰਾਰੇ ॥
mohan maadhhav kirasa muraarae ||
The Enticer of Hearts, the Lord of wealth, Krishna, the Enemy of ego.

ਜਗਦੀਸੁਰ ਹਰਿ ਜੀਉ ਅਸੁਰ ਸੰਘਾਰੇ ॥
jagadheesur har jeeo asur sanghaarae ||
The Lord of the Universe, the Dear Lord, the Destroyer of demons.

ਜਗਜੀਵਨ ਅਬਿਨਾਸੀ ਠਾਕੁਰ ਘਟ ਘਟ ਵਾਸੀ ਹੈ ਸੰਗਾ ॥੨॥
jagajeevan abinaasee thaakur ghatt ghatt vaasee hai sangaa ||2||
The Life of the World, our eternal and ever-stable Lord and Master dwells within each and every heart, and is always with us. ||2||

ਧਰਣੀਧਰ ਈਸ ਨਰਸਿੰਘ ਨਾਰਾਇਣ ॥
dhharaneedhhar ees narasingh naaraaein ||
The Support of the Earth, the man-lion, the Supreme Lord God.

ਦਾੜਾ ਅਗ੍ਰੇ ਪ੍ਰਿਥਮਿ ਧਰਾਇਣ ॥
dhaarraa agrae prithham dhharaaein ||
The Protector who tears apart demons with His teeth, the Upholder of the earth.

ਬਾਵਨ ਰੂਪੁ ਕੀਆ ਤੁਧੁ ਕਰਤੇ ਸਭ ਹੀ ਸੇਤੀ ਹੈ ਚੰਗਾ ॥੩॥
baavan roop keeaa thudhh karathae sabh hee saethee hai changaa ||3||
O Creator, You assumed the form of the pygmy to humble the demons; You are the Lord God of all. ||3||

ਸ੍ਰੀ ਰਾਮਚੰਦ ਜਿਸੁ ਰੂਪੁ ਨ ਰੇਖਿਆ ॥
sree raamachandh jis roop n raekhiaa ||
You are the Great Raam Chand, who has no form or feature.

ਬਨਵਾਲੀ ਚਕ੍ਰਪਾਣਿ ਦਰਸਿ ਅਨੂਪਿਆ ॥
banavaalee chakrapaan dharas anoopiaa ||
Adorned with flowers, holding the chakra in Your hand, Your form is incomparably beautiful.

ਸਹਸ ਨੇਤ੍ਰ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਹੈ ਸਹਸਾ ਇਕੁ ਦਾਤਾ ਸਭ ਹੈ ਮੰਗਾ ॥੪॥
sehas naethr moorath hai sehasaa eik dhaathaa sabh hai mangaa ||4||
You have thousands of eyes, and thousands of forms. You alone are the Giver, and all are beggars of You. ||4||

ਭਗਤਿ ਵਛਲੁ ਅਨਾਥਹ ਨਾਥੇ ॥
bhagath vashhal anaathheh naathhae ||
You are the Lover of Your devotees, the Master of the masterless.

ਗੋਪੀ ਨਾਥੁ ਸਗਲ ਹੈ ਸਾਥੇ ॥
gopee naathh sagal hai saathhae ||
The Lord and Master of the milk-maids, You are the companion of all.

ਬਾਸੁਦੇਵ ਨਿਰੰਜਨ ਦਾਤੇ ਬਰਨਿ ਨ ਸਾਕਉ ਗੁਣ ਅੰਗਾ ॥੫॥
baasudhaev niranjan dhaathae baran n saako gun angaa ||5||
O Lord, Immacuate Great Giver, I cannot describe even an iota of Your Glorious Virtues. ||5

ਮੁਕੰਦ ਮਨੋਹਰ ਲਖਮੀ ਨਾਰਾਇਣ ॥
mukandh manohar lakhamee naaraaein ||
Liberator, Enticing Lord, Lord of Lakshmi, Supreme Lord God.

ਦ੍ਰੋਪਤੀ ਲਜਾ ਨਿਵਾਰਿ ਉਧਾਰਣ ॥
dhropathee lajaa nivaar oudhhaaran ||
Savior of Dropadi's honor.

ਕਮਲਾਕੰਤ ਕਰਹਿ ਕੰਤੂਹਲ ਅਨਦ ਬਿਨੋਦੀ ਨਿਹਸੰਗਾ ॥੬॥
kamalaakanth karehi kanthoohal anadh binodhee nihasangaa ||6||
Lord of Maya, miracle-worker, absorbed in delightful play, unattached. ||6||

ਅਮੋਘ ਦਰਸਨ ਆਜੂਨੀ ਸੰਭਉ ॥
amogh dharasan aajoonee sanbho ||
The Blessed Vision of His Darshan is fruitful and rewarding; He is not born, He is self-existent.

ਅਕਾਲ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਜਿਸੁ ਕਦੇ ਨਾਹੀ ਖਉ ॥
akaal moorath jis kadhae naahee kho ||
His form is undying; it is never destroyed.

ਅਬਿਨਾਸੀ ਅਬਿਗਤ ਅਗੋਚਰ ਸਭੁ ਕਿਛੁ ਤੁਝ ਹੀ ਹੈ ਲਗਾ ॥੭॥
abinaasee abigath agochar sabh kishh thujh hee hai lagaa ||7||
O imperishable, eternal, unfathomable Lord, everything is attached to You. ||7||

ਸ੍ਰੀਰੰਗ ਬੈਕੁੰਠ ਕੇ ਵਾਸੀ ॥
sreerang baikunth kae vaasee ||
The Lover of greatness, who dwells in heaven.

ਮਛੁ ਕਛੁ ਕੂਰਮੁ ਆਗਿਆ ਅਉਤਰਾਸੀ ॥
mashh kashh kooram aagiaa aoutharaasee ||
By the Pleasure of His Will, He took incarnation as the great fish and the tortoise.

ਕੇਸਵ ਚਲਤ ਕਰਹਿ ਨਿਰਾਲੇ ਕੀਤਾ ਲੋੜਹਿ ਸੋ ਹੋਇਗਾ ॥੮॥
kaesav chalath karehi niraalae keethaa lorrehi so hoeigaa ||8||
The Lord of beauteous hair, the Worker of miraculous deeds, whatever He wishes, comes to pass. ||8||

ਨਿਰਾਹਾਰੀ ਨਿਰਵੈਰੁ ਸਮਾਇਆ ॥
niraahaaree niravair samaaeiaa ||
He is beyond need of any sustenance, free of hate and all-pervading.

ਧਾਰਿ ਖੇਲੁ ਚਤੁਰਭੁਜੁ ਕਹਾਇਆ ॥
dhhaar khael chathurabhuj kehaaeiaa ||
He has staged His play; He is called the four-armed Lord.

ਸਾਵਲ ਸੁੰਦਰ ਰੂਪ ਬਣਾਵਹਿ ਬੇਣੁ ਸੁਨਤ ਸਭ ਮੋਹੈਗਾ ॥੯॥
saaval sundhar roop banaavehi baen sunath sabh mohaigaa ||9||
He assumed the beautiful form of the blue-skinned Krishna; hearing His flute, all are fascinated and enticed. ||9||

ਬਨਮਾਲਾ ਬਿਭੂਖਨ ਕਮਲ ਨੈਨ ॥
banamaalaa bibhookhan kamal nain ||
He is adorned with garlands of flowers, with lotus eyes.

ਸੁੰਦਰ ਕੁੰਡਲ ਮੁਕਟ ਬੈਨ ॥
sundhar kunddal mukatt bain ||
His ear-rings, crown and flute are so beautiful.

ਸੰਖ ਚਕ੍ਰ ਗਦਾ ਹੈ ਧਾਰੀ ਮਹਾ ਸਾਰਥੀ ਸਤਸੰਗਾ ॥੧੦॥
sankh chakr gadhaa hai dhhaaree mehaa saarathhee sathasangaa ||10||
He carries the conch, the chakra and the war club; He is the Great Charioteer, who stays with His Saints. ||10||

ਪੀਤ ਪੀਤੰਬਰ ਤ੍ਰਿਭਵਣ ਧਣੀ ॥
peeth peethanbar thribhavan dhhanee ||
The Lord of yellow robes, the Master of the three worlds.

ਜਗੰਨਾਥੁ ਗੋਪਾਲੁ ਮੁਖਿ ਭਣੀ ॥
jagannaathh gopaal mukh bhanee ||
The Lord of the Universe, the Lord of the world; with my mouth, I chant His Name.
~SGGS Ji p. 1082​

Vishnu, the 4 armed Lord with chakr, conch, mace, and lotus. The Das Avataars emanate from Vishnu.

 

[pk70]

First, about the issue of "trade" in Gurbani. By your phrase: "If Gurbani praises Vedas only that part where His simran was advocated not all other stuff, it was also said it( Veda) would not help you as they teach trade and, it is still going in Hindism.” Are you unable to see the prejudice in this viewpoint? Are you really unable to see that the entire issue has been one of addressing the incredible and unsupportable hostility Sikhs have for Hinduism based on radical misinterpretations of Gurbani like these?
ALL Gurbani you are quoting is not talking about the trade I wrote about. You punched a word” Vapaar” and start copying and pasting it even without understanding what is said in there, I posted many, did you care. No, Because you are repeating same things which were well explained long time ago. Doesn’t it occur you that you are ignoring Gurbani just to support Hinduism and their scriptures
ਧਨੁ ਧਨੁ ਵਣਜੁ ਵਾਪਾਰੀਆ ਜਿਨ ਵਖਰੁ ਲਦਿਅੜਾ ਹਰਿ ਰਾਸਿ ॥
dhhan dhhan vanaj vaapaareeaa jin vakhar ladhiarraa har raas ||
Blessed, blessed is the trade of those traders who have loaded the merchandise of the Wealth of the Lord.
~SGGS Ji p. 82
Above is your quote, does it occur you that it is not like that portion of Veda where exploitation of Brahamin is in high gear, it is said” if you give this to Brahamin, you will get this, if you do this, your ancestors will get this., read Shadong Upnished, lesson 6, Khand 9 and 15. also Manu smiriti Slok 123, 125 Adhiaae10. You will see how humanity is degraded
PLEASE stop trying to judge the demerits of Hinduism as if this were it's only definition.
Who is judging, I am hinting at the truth to be find in those scriptures you repeatedly applaud and when asked to quote from those lessons, pages where degrading things are written, you start advising me not to judge their merits. Merits and demerits must be discussed, it is necessary to say all are really that good as you beat drum about them so loudly!
Does it occur to you that Gurbani doesn't speak in a derogatory way about "trade" in the way you infer? For example, lets look at the Gurbani:

So we cannot judge as wholly negative, Hinduism and Hindu scriptures and Hindu people, without first examining the intentions of OUR own hearts

. Are we to blindly imply that this refers to every brahmin? Is every brahmin being described by this description?
Do we, remember we have to use the Word Brahamin, as Kabir ji did where he asks” oh Brahamin ! have you come any special way” Does he mean all Brahmins, please don’t split hair.

Hardly anyone... is a true servant... a true disciple... these are the fake traders. And it isn't something Hindu's alone have a problem with, (for some reason Sikhs keep condemning Hindu religion as fake), but it is a problem of the whole world. Everyone, including Sikhs has to confront the ways in which our own spirituality is compromised. We can't keep "blaming brahmins," or "blaming Hindus," or "blaming Vedas." It's an issue of authentic spirituality versus inauthentic. It is NOT "us" against "them."
Very true but why don’t you think when you start accusing one side only, when they are attacked you show this fairness otherwise you keep grilling one portion of Sikhs, never realize all are not like those ones you target.

 

[pk70]

Gurbani itself affirms the role of Vedas. They do not lead to liberation. They TELL of how to obtain liberation. So worldly-minded scholars who think only the study will save them are self-deceived. Hypocritical and evil-minded religious pretenders will also be deceived. But Guruji says in many places good things also about Vedas. Gurbani even says Gurbani contains the sound current of the Naad, Primal Shabad, and the Vedas. So how can we continue with the deception that Vedas are something evil?
ਵੇਦਾ ਮਹਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਉਤਮੁ ਸੋ ਸੁਣਹਿ ਨਾਹੀ ਫਿਰਹਿ ਜਿਉ ਬੇਤਾਲਿਆ ॥
vaedhaa mehi naam outham so sunehi naahee firehi jio baethaaliaa ||
In the Vedas, the ultimate objective is the Naam, the Name of the Lord; but they do not hear this, and they wander around like demons.
~SGGS Ji p. 919

Yes, but Guru ji also says
sਸਿਮ੍ਰਿਤਿ ਸਾਸਤ੍ਰ ਪੁੰਨ ਪਾਪ ਬੀਚਾਰਦੇ ਤਤੈ ਸਾਰ ਨ ਜਾਣੀ ॥ ਤਤੈ ਸਾਰ ਨ ਜਾਣੀ ਗੁਰੂ ਬਾਝਹੁ ਤਤੈ ਸਾਰ ਨ ਜਾਣੀ ॥ ਤਿਹੀ ਗੁਣੀ ਸੰਸਾਰੁ ਭ੍ਰਮਿ ਸੁਤਾ ਸੁਤਿਆ ਰੈਣਿ ਵਿਹਾਣੀ ॥ ਗੁਰ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਤੇ ਸੇ ਜਨ ਜਾਗੇ ਜਿਨਾ ਹਰਿ ਮਨਿ ਵਸਿਆ ਬੋਲਹਿ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਬਾਣੀ ॥ ਕਹੈ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਸੋ ਤਤੁ ਪਾਏ ਜਿਸ ਨੋ ਅਨਦਿਨੁ ਹਰਿ ਲਿਵ ਲਾਗੈ ਜਾਗਤ ਰੈਣਿ ਵਿਹਾਣੀ ॥੨੭॥
The Simritis and Shastras discriminate between good and evil, but know not the essence of the Real Thing. Without the Guru, they know not the essence of the Reality, know not the essence of the Reality. The world is asleep in three modes and doubt, and in slumber its night(life) passes away. By Guru's grace, only those mortals keep awake, in whose mind the Lord abides and who utter the Nectar-word. Says Nanak, he alone obtains quintessence, who ever remains merged in the Lord's love and passes his life-night awake.

[/FONT]ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਵੇਦੁ ਪੜੈ ਵਾਦੁ ਵਖਾਣੈ ॥
[/FONT] Barahmā vėḏ paṛai vāḏ vakẖāṇai.
Brahma studied the Vedas, but these lead only to debates and disputes.
ਅੰਤਰਿ ਤਾਮਸੁ ਆਪੁ ਨ ਪਛਾਣੈ ॥
Anṯar ṯāmas āp na pacẖẖāṇai.
He is filled with darkness; he does not understand himself.
ਤਾ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਪਾਏ ਗੁਰ ਸਬਦੁ ਵਖਾਣੈ ॥੧॥
Ŧā parabẖ pā*ė gur sabaḏ vakẖāṇai. ||1||
And yet, if he chants the Word of the Guru's Shabad, he finds God. ||1||
AND
ਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਬਿਨਾ ਹੋਰ ਕਚੀ ਹੈ ਬਾਣੀ ॥ ਬਾਣੀ ਤ ਕਚੀ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਬਾਝਹੁ ਹੋਰ ਕਚੀ ਬਾਣੀ ॥ ਕਹਦੇ ਕਚੇ ਸੁਣਦੇ ਕਚੇ .ਕਚੀ ਆਖਿ ਵਖਾਣੀ ॥ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਨਿਤ ਕਰਹਿ ਰਸਨਾ ਕਹਿਆ ਕਛੂ ਨ ਜਾਣੀ ॥ ਚਿਤੁ ਜਿਨ ਕਾ ਹਿਰਿ ਲਇਆ ਮਾਇਆ ਬੋਲਨਿ ਪਏ ਰਵਾਣੀ ॥ ਕਹੈ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਬਾਝਹੁ ਹੋਰ ਕਚੀ ਬਾਣੀ ॥੨੪॥
Without the True Guru, all other word is false. Without the True Guru every other word is false. All other sermons are but false. False are the utterers, false the hearers, false the reciters and false their authors. With their tongue they ever utter the Lord God's Name, but they realise not in the least what they say. They, whose mind is lured by mammon, continue reciting fluently and mechanically. Says Nanak, without the True Guru all other gospel is false.
How am I not fair veer ji? In all these threads people are making derogatory comments about corruption, obscenity, indecency, distortion, idiotic opinions, etc. I do not do this. So why am I unfair simply not to agree with your viewpoint? Because I do not agree with your viewpoint it is some justification to abuse my opinions? I think you need to re-evaluate your moral stance, if this is what your saying. Because such a position which justifies unfairness and discrimination against a particular viewpoint is propagandistic and unspiritual. I point out the flaws and extremism within Sikhism precisely because of the attitudes of negativity and hoistility constantly be voiced against a sanatan viewpoint. It's like a mirror, take a good look, because Sikh communities aren't exempt from the corruptions and indecencies they accuse as being the very definition of Hindu religion.

How you can be fair Bhain ji when openly you discredit History I quoted, Bhai Gurdaas ji’s comment specially on Caste system quoted, , Did you care? No, still you don’t care. 99 times I quoted Guru Vaak from Mehla 1 and Mehla 2 where they say [/FONT] that Vedas teach Vapaar, give this here get that there but Guru shabad gives you knowledge about HIM. Did you accept Guru ji’s views? No. What you see in Gurbani Is Hinduism, regarding caste system even if views of Guru ji were quoted to counter your false accusation on Guru ji that they supported Caste system, what did you do? you kept beating your drum in favor of a lie, is it fairness? What is the use of giving quotes to you because you only believe what you want to", for that if you have to disregard Guru, Gurbani, Bhai Gurdas ji, happily you do, is it fair? Why I have to tell you that it is not my views that Veda teaches Trade but Guru ji says so, reason is obvious.


[/FONT]

 

[pk70]

Is this unfair? You don't think this is fair? There has been nothing on this forum but unmitigated propaganda against Hindu religion
See here that is what you see, for rest you close your eyes. You are ready to criticize Muslims, Sikhs but never try to say in balance that fanatic Hindus play the same dirty game, is it fairness? Only do you have Hindu Friends? We don’t have. Only you are on this forum to defend Hindus and we criticize them. Not a single time I said a word against any Hindu though I have to hear demeaning comments by them simply because of my faith all are not the same. Fair person doesn’t ignore own Guru’s declaration, statement of those who lived with Gurus and wrote the facts. Well you are not here to find fact; this is what I have sensed. You expect fairness from all others but there is no fairness you can give to others. You called Guru Nanak Vashanava, You said that Guru himself promoted caste system, how I can swallow such lies? Where is your fairness? Isnt your moral duty to refrain from making statements which can be inflaming? You don’t care, under the name of honesty, you judge Gurus. Being a Sikh, do you think you have a license to judge them based on your a little study of Gurbani It is easy to blame others Bhain ji, first one need to see what is being said agaibst the Guru they adore to death. No wonder you post pictures of Hindu devtas when you get chance, is it required by any standard of debate? Not at all, but that is very important. Did you see them? Are these real picture of those you talk about. Do we need these pictures?

So let's be honest with the truth. Hindu religion is no more corrupted and evil than Sikh Gurdwaras who rob money from the sangat

You see, that is the cause of your anger. May I ask you? Would any person of merit would attack the whole religion on the basis of personal experience with some pseudo believers?
Does it occur to you that Guru Nanak Dev Ji was born in a Hindu family?
So that is your measure, one who born into Hindu family, drag him back to Hinduism.Leave him alone, first learn what he did. PLEASE if cannot respect him refrain from judging him !

 

[pk70]

Fifth Nanak contemplating on NIRGUNA addresses all others avtaras gods or demi gods as millions, it means some are just stuck with some incarnations of Vishnu, Brahme, Shiva but HE created millions like those guys,” HE is the one I contemplate not any of those millions” that is what Guru says.. Mention of these avtaras doesn’t believe Sikhs should value them as guiding forces because such were created in millions by HIM, Sikhs aim is to be in love with HIM who creates so well known in millions. Can any one call Guru Vashnava who believes in Tri murthy, Krishna etc? Guru ji clearly says, just take deep breath, those kind of entities are created by Him in millions. Here these Vashnavas are stuck with Tri murthy concept. Guru, Gurmukh they go above all this. It should be blasphemy if any one calls Guru Nanak Santni or Vashnava as I feel. It is a total insult on a different approach of Guru ji and Bhagatas than others who are stuck in a few, like twelve avatars or Trimurthy, Guru Granth Sahib Ji opens eyes and take the follower not to waste time on those limited but a part of His creation, He is beyond all that. In the following Shabad, Sahib states clearly, his faith is only in Him, His infinity beyond accounting, His affairs that goes to amazement. He is just inexpressible( Also Japji Sahib-!7 to 26 Pouri) Those who in other scriptures try to express as if they knew, Guru Nanak says in Japji that they would definitely be dishonored by Him because how any one could express Him. These guys are just jumping around ten or twelve, but Guru ji says( not Singh Sabha) that HE created in millions of such enteritis. In RAHAAO Vaak, Guru ji call Him GOWIND, look at it, they drag this word to Krishna about whom Guru ji says right in this Shabad” one of millions.
ਭੈਰਉ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ॥ ਕੋਟਿ ਬਿਸਨ ਕੀਨੇ ਅਵਤਾਰ ॥ ਕੋਟਿ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੰਡ ਜਾ ਕੇ ਧ੍ਰਮਸਾਲ ॥ ਕੋਟਿ ਮਹੇਸ ਉਪਾਇ ਸਮਾਏ ॥ ਕੋਟਿ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੇ ਜਗੁ ਸਾਜਣ ਲਾਏ ॥੧॥
Bhairo 5th Guru. He created millions of incarnations of Vishnu. He who has millions of solar systems as places to practise virtue. He created and destroyed millions of Shivas. He has employed myriads of Brahmas to create the universes.
NOTE where is that one Indra, one Shiva, one Vishnu and others? You see, there are millions like them, stress of this has a meaning.
ਐਸੋ ਧਣੀ ਗੁਵਿੰਦੁ ਹਮਾਰਾ ॥ ਬਰਨਿ ਨ ਸਾਕਉ ਗੁਣ ਬਿਸਥਾਰਾ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥

Such is my Master Lord, O man. He has good many virtues. I can narrate them not. Pause.
ਕੋਟਿ ਮਾਇਆ ਜਾ ਕੈ ਸੇਵਕਾਇ ॥ ਕੋਟਿ ਜੀਅ ਜਾ ਕੀ ਸਿਹਜਾਇ ॥ ਕੋਟਿ ਉਪਾਰਜਨਾ ਤੇਰੈ ਅੰਗਿ ॥ ਕੋਟਿ ਭਗਤ ਬਸਤ ਹਰਿ ਸੰਗਿ ॥੨॥
Such is the Lord, millions of Lakhshmis are his maids, and myriads of beings are whose couches. Millions of universes are in Thy Being, O Lord. Myriads of devotees abide with the Lord.
ਕੋਟਿ ਛਤ੍ਰਪਤਿ ਕਰਤ ਨਮਸਕਾਰ ॥ ਕੋਟਿ ਇੰਦ੍ਰ ਠਾਢੇ ਹੈ ਦੁਆਰ ॥ ਕੋਟਿ ਬੈਕੁੰਠ ਜਾ ਕੀ ਦ੍ਰਿਸਟੀ ਮਾਹਿ ॥ ਕੋਟਿ ਨਾਮ ਜਾ ਕੀ ਕੀਮਤਿ ਨਾਹਿ ॥੩॥
Millions of Lords of throne and crown make obeisance unto Him. Million of Indras stand at His door. Such is He, whose vision are millions of paradises. Myriads are the Lord's Names, whose worth can be appraised not.
ਕੋਟਿ ਪੂਰੀਅਤ ਹੈ ਜਾ ਕੈ ਨਾਦ ॥ ਕੋਟਿ ਅਖਾਰੇ ਚਲਿਤ ਬਿਸਮਾਦ ॥ ਕੋਟਿ ਸਕਤਿ ਸਿਵ ਆਗਿਆਕਾਰ ॥ ਕੋਟਿ ਜੀਅ ਦੇਵੈ ਆਧਾਰ ॥੪॥
Such is He, at whose door millions of conches are sounded. Millions are His arenas and wondrous plays. He has myriads of obedient Laksmis and Shivas. To millions of beings, the Lord gives sustenance.
ਕੋਟਿ ਤੀਰਥ ਜਾ ਕੇ ਚਰਨ ਮਝਾਰ ॥ ਕੋਟਿ ਪਵਿਤ੍ਰ ਜਪਤ ਨਾਮ ਚਾਰ ॥ ਕੋਟਿ ਪੂਜਾਰੀ ਕਰਤੇ ਪੂਜਾ ॥ ਕੋਟਿ ਬਿਸਥਾਰਨੁ ਅਵਰੁ ਨ ਦੂਜਾ ॥੫॥
Millions of pilgrim stations are in whose feet. Millions utter the immaculate and beauteous Name of the Lord. Millions of worshippers worship the Lord. Million are His expanses. There is not any other save Him.
ਕੋਟਿ ਮਹਿਮਾ ਜਾ ਕੀ ਨਿਰਮਲ ਹੰਸ ॥ ਕੋਟਿ ਉਸਤਤਿ ਜਾ ਕੀ ਕਰਤ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੰਸ ॥ ਕੋਟਿ ਪਰਲਉ ਓਪਤਿ ਨਿਮਖ ਮਾਹਿ ॥ ਕੋਟਿ ਗੁਣਾ ਤੇਰੇ ਗਣੇ ਨ ਜਾਹਿ ॥੬॥

Whose pure praise is sung by millions of swan-souls. Myriads of whose praises are hymned by the sons of Brahma. Myriads of destructions and creations, the Lord affects in an instant. Millions are Thine virtues, which can be counted not, O Lord.
ਕੋਟਿ ਗਿਆਨੀ ਕਥਹਿ ਗਿਆਨੁ ॥ ਕੋਟਿ ਧਿਆਨੀ ਧਰਤ ਧਿਆਨੁ ॥ ਕੋਟਿ ਤਪੀਸਰ ਤਪ ਹੀ ਕਰਤੇ ॥ ਕੋਟਿ ਮੁਨੀਸਰ ਨਿ+ਮ ਮਹਿ ਰਹਤੇ ॥੭॥
Millions of theologians expound gnosis. Millions of contemplators contemplate Him. Millions of penitents just practise penitence. Millions of silent sages abides in silence.
ਅਵਿਗਤ ਨਾਥੁ ਅਗੋਚਰ ਸੁਆਮੀ ॥ ਪੂਰਿ ਰਹਿਆ ਘਟ ਅੰਤਰਜਾਮੀ ॥ ਜਤ ਕਤ ਦੇਖਉ ਤੇਰਾ ਵਾਸਾ ॥ ਨਾਨਕ ਕਉ ਗੁਰਿ ਕੀਓ ਪ੍ਰਗਾਸਾ ॥੮॥੨॥੫॥
The Imperishable and Incomprehensible Lord Master, the Inner-knower, is fully filling all the hearts. Wheresoever I see, I see Thy abode, O Lord. Nanak, the slave, the Guru has illumined.
I am totally against separate state; I feel it is against Sikhism but why people of minority faiths are not happy with policies of Indian Govt. since 1947?Don’t blame on minorities, bad elements are every where but a majority should show exemplary behavior. Why they are always scared in every way? Muslims who didn’t leave India, why still they are looked at as” Pakistanis”? As they say” you cannot clap with one hand” harmony in India cannot come if Sikhs or Muslims or Christians are silenced. I believe dirty games are being played by fanatics of Hindus more than any others. Why to blame Pakistan, don’t we see how politician inflame religious sentiments during every election. What the majority of the voters have done about this in India?

 

[pk70]

Now look at Kabir ji’s love as Gurmukh not Vashnava. When 12 avtaras are addressed as one of millions, that means some thing. It totally shows that who cares about those 12, He created millions like them. How dare any one label Kabir’s to any sect. History is vague and contradictory, only proof we have about Kabir ji is his Bani we recite from Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Gurmukh has no sect, no label, Gurmukh is sold to Nirguna, Sarguna is perishable, one can love Him only if His perishable part is understood in His Ordinance. If He is in every body it doesn’t mean we shouldn’t do any thing if we witness evil act. Guru panth is complete from Guru Nanak to Guru Gobind Singh ji. Our only scripture is Guru Granth Sahib ji, rest are not for us. So say Guru ji and Kabir ji. The following Shabad says all about him and his faith.
ਭੈਰਉ ਕਬੀਰ ਜੀਉ ਅਸਟਪਦੀ ਘਰੁ ੨
Bhairo Kabir Ji Ashtpadis.
ੴ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥
There is but One God. By the True Guru's grace, He is obtained.

ਅਗਮ ਦ੍ਰੁਗਮ ਗੜਿ ਰਚਿਓ ਬਾਸ ॥ ਜਾ ਮਹਿ ਜੋਤਿ ਕਰੇ ਪਰਗਾਸ ॥ ਬਿਜੁਲੀ ਚਮਕੈ ਹੋਇ ਅਨੰਦੁ ॥ ਜਿਹ ਪਉੜ੍ਹ੍ਹੇ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਬਾਲ ਗੋਬਿੰਦ ॥੧॥
The Lord constructed an unparalleled and unreachable fortress for His residence, wherein shine His light. The lightning flashes and bliss reigns in the place, where abides my young Lord Master.
ਇਹੁ ਜੀਉ ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮ ਲਿਵ ਲਾਗੈ ॥ ਜਰਾ ਮਰਨੁ ਛੂਟੈ ਭ੍ਰਮੁ ਭਾਗੈ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
If this soul is attuned to the Lord's Name, man is released from old age and death and his doubt flees away. Pause.
ਅਬਰਨ ਬਰਨ ਸਿਉ ਮਨ ਹੀ ਪ੍ਰੀਤਿ ॥ ਹਉਮੈ ਗਾਵਨਿ ਗਾਵਹਿ ਗੀਤ ॥ ਅਨਹਦ ਸਬਦ ਹੋਤ ਝੁਨਕਾਰ ॥ ਜਿਹ ਪਉੜ੍ਹ੍ਹੇ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਗੋਪਾਲ ॥੨॥
He, whose mind loves to know the low caste and high caste, chants the eulogies and songs of ego. The sound of the unstruck melody resounds at the place, Where the Reverend Lord, the world-Cherisher abides.
ਖੰਡਲ ਮੰਡਲ ਮੰਡਲ ਮੰਡਾ ॥ ਤ੍ਰਿਅ ਅਸਥਾਨ ਤੀਨਿ ਤ੍ਰਿਅ ਖੰਡਾ ॥ ਅਗਮ ਅਗੋਚਰੁ ਰਹਿਆ ਅਭ ਅੰਤ ॥ ਪਾਰੁ ਨ ਪਾਵੈ ਕੋ ਧਰਨੀਧਰ ਮੰਤ ॥੩॥
He the Lord creates the continents, worlds and universes, and destroys the three worlds, three gods and the three qualities. That inaccessible and Inapprehensible Lord abides within the mind. No one can find the limit and the secret of the Sustainer of the earth.
ਕਦਲੀ ਪੁਹਪ ਧੂਪ ਪਰਗਾਸ ॥ ਰਜ ਪੰਕਜ ਮਹਿ ਲੀਓ ਨਿਵਾਸ ॥ ਦੁਆਦਸ ਦਲ ਅਭ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਮੰਤ ॥ ਜਹ ਪਉੜੇ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਕਮਲਾ ਕੰਤ ॥੪॥
The Lord shines in the plantain, flower and the sun-shine. He has taken an abode in the pollen of the lotus. The Lord's spell is within the twelve petals of the heart, in which place reposes the Sire spouse of Lakshmi.
ਅਰਧ ਉਰਧ ਮੁਖਿ ਲਾਗੋ ਕਾਸੁ ॥ ਸੁੰਨ ਮੰਡਲ ਮਹਿ ਕਰਿ ਪਰਗਾਸੁ ॥ ਊਹਾਂ ਸੂਰਜ ਨਾਹੀ ਚੰਦ ॥ ਆਦਿ ਨਿਰੰਜਨੁ ਕਰੈ ਅਨੰਦ ॥੫॥
The Lord, who sky-like pervades the lower, upper and middle regions; He sheds light in the silent realm of the Tenth gate. The sun and the moon are not there, but the Primal and Immaculate Lord makes merry there.
ਸੋ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੰਡਿ ਪਿੰਡਿ ਸੋ ਜਾਨੁ ॥ ਮਾਨ ਸਰੋਵਰਿ ਕਰਿ ਇਸਨਾਨੁ ॥ ਸੋਹੰ ਸੋ ਜਾ ਕਉ ਹੈ ਜਾਪ ॥ ਜਾ ਕਉ ਲਿਪਤ ਨ ਹੋਇ ਪੁੰਨ ਅਰੁ ਪਾਪ ॥੬॥
Deem thou Him in the universe and Him in the body too. Bathe thou in the Lord's 'Mansarovar'. Contemplate thou Him, whose pass-word is "He is me". Such is the Lord, whom no filth of merits and demerits attaches.
ਅਬਰਨ ਬਰਨ ਘਾਮ ਨਹੀ ਛਾਮ ॥ ਅਵਰ ਨ ਪਾਈਐ ਗੁਰ ਕੀ ਸਾਮ ॥ ਟਾਰੀ ਨ ਟਰੈ ਆਵੈ ਨ ਜਾਇ ॥ ਸੁੰਨ ਸਹਜ ਮਹਿ ਰਹਿਓ ਸਮਾਇ ॥੭॥
The Lord whom low caste, high caste, sun-shine and shade touch not, is found in the Guru's asylum and no where else. The attention that is fixed on the Lord is diverted not by diverting and man is released from transmigration, and he easily remains merged in the Lord.
ਮਨ ਮਧੇ ਜਾਨੈ ਜੇ ਕੋਇ ॥ ਜੋ ਬੋਲੈ ਸੋ ਆਪੈ ਹੋਇ ॥ ਜੋਤਿ ਮੰਤ੍ਰਿ ਮਨਿ ਅਸਥਿਰੁ ਕਰੈ ॥ ਕਹਿ ਕਬੀਰ ਸੋ ਪ੍ਰਾਨੀ ਤਰੈ ॥੮॥੧॥
If any one realises the Lord in his mind, he is fulfilled. Whatever he utters that happens spontaneously. Whosoever firmly fixes the Lord's Light and the Name within his mind; says Kabir, that mortal swims across the world-ocean.
ਕੋਟਿ ਸੂਰ ਜਾ ਕੈ ਪਰਗਾਸ ॥ ਕੋਟਿ ਮਹਾਦੇਵ ਅਰੁ ਕਬਿਲਾਸ ॥ ਦੁਰਗਾ ਕੋਟਿ ਜਾ ਕੈ ਮਰਦਨੁ ਕਰੈ ॥ ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਕੋਟਿ ਬੇਦ ਉਚਰੈ ॥੧॥
Such is my Lord, for whom millions of suns shine, and who has millions of Shivas and Kailashes, where Shiva abides. Such is He, whose feet millions of goddesses shampoo, and for whom millions of Brahmas utter the Vedas.
ਜਉ ਜਾਚਉ ਤਉ ਕੇਵਲ ਰਾਮ ॥ ਆਨ ਦੇਵ ਸਿਉ ਨਾਹੀ ਕਾਮ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
When I beg, then beg I only the Lord's Name. I have nothing to do with any other God. Pause.

ਕੋਟਿ ਚੰਦ੍ਰਮੇ ਕਰਹਿ ਚਰਾਕ ॥ ਸੁਰ ਤੇਤੀਸਉ ਜੇਵਹਿ ਪਾਕ ॥ ਨਵ ਗ੍ਰਹ ਕੋਟਿ ਠਾਢੇ ਦਰਬਾਰ ॥ ਧਰਮ ਕੋਟਿ ਜਾ ਕੈ ਪ੍ਰਤਿਹਾਰ ॥੨॥
Myriads of moons sparkle in the Lord's will. Thirty-three hundred thousands gods partake of His food. The myriads of the groups of nine stars stand at His door. Millions of Righteous Judges are His gate-keepers.
ਪਵਨ ਕੋਟਿ ਚਉਬਾਰੇ ਫਿਰਹਿ ॥ ਬਾਸਕ ਕੋਟਿ ਸੇਜ ਬਿਸਥਰਹਿ ॥ ਸਮੁੰਦ ਕੋਟਿ ਜਾ ਕੇ ਪਾਨੀਹਾਰ ॥ ਰੋਮਾਵਲਿ ਕੋਟਿ ਅਠਾਰਹ ਭਾਰ ॥੩॥
Millions of winds blow round Him in four directions. Millions of serpents spread His bedding. Millions of oceans are whose water-carriers. The eighteen million loads of vegetation are His hair.
ਕੋਟਿ ਕਮੇਰ ਭਰਹਿ ਭੰਡਾਰ ॥ ਕੋਟਿਕ ਲਖਿਮੀ ਕਰੈ ਸੀਗਾਰ ॥ ਕੋਟਿਕ ਪਾਪ ਪੁੰਨ ਬਹੁ ਹਿਰਹਿ ॥ ਇੰਦ੍ਰ ਕੋਟਿ ਜਾ ਕੇ ਸੇਵਾ ਕਰਹਿ ॥੪॥
Millions of treasures fill his treasures. Millions of Lakshmis decorate themselves to please Him. Many Millions of sins and virtues look up to Him. Millions of Indras perform whose service.
ਛਪਨ ਕੋਟਿ ਜਾ ਕੈ ਪ੍ਰਤਿਹਾਰ ॥ ਨਗਰੀ ਨਗਰੀ ਖਿਅਤ ਅਪਾਰ ॥ ਲਟ ਛੂਟੀ ਵਰਤੈ ਬਿਕਰਾਲ ॥ ਕੋਟਿ ਕਲਾ ਖੇਲੈ ਗੋਪਾਲ ॥੫॥
Fifty six millions are whose clouds. In very town is His infinite celebrity. With its loose tresses, the dreadful death works before Him. In millions of ways the Lord plays,
ਕੋਟਿ ਜਗ ਜਾ ਕੈ ਦਰਬਾਰ ॥ ਗੰਧ੍ਰਬ ਕੋਟਿ ਕਰਹਿ ਜੈਕਾਰ ॥ ਬਿਦਿਆ ਕੋਟਿ ਸਭੈ ਗੁਨ ਕਹੈ ॥ ਤਊ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਕਾ ਅੰਤੁ ਨ ਲਹੈ ॥੬॥
There are millions of gratuitous feasts in His court, and millions of celestial singers hail Him. Myriads of sciences all utter His praise. Even then they can find not the end of the Supreme Lord.

ਬਾਵਨ ਕੋਟਿ ਜਾ ਕੈ ਰੋਮਾਵਲੀ ॥ ਰਾਵਨ ਸੈਨਾ ਜਹ ਤੇ ਛਲੀ ॥ ਸਹਸ ਕੋਟਿ ਬਹੁ ਕਹਤ ਪੁਰਾਨ ॥ ਦੁਰਜੋਧਨ ਕਾ ਮਥਿਆ ਮਾਨੁ ॥੭॥
In His one hair are millions of Bawan's incarnations, Rama who outmaneuvered Rawan's army, thousand millions of Puranas, which greatly extol Him, and Krishna, who humbled the pride of Duryodhan.
NOTE Here first Kabir ji says that you are talking about only 12 carnations, HE created millions like them, and remind the follower about whom he is talking about, he gives stories, so they are not one or twelve but millions like them, that reduces the status of one Rama or one Krishna. When we use this saying” I have seen million like you” it means it is not you who think so highly of yourself.... Kabir ji further clears in next Vaakas who he believes in
ਕੰਦ੍ਰਪ ਕੋਟਿ ਜਾ ਕੈ ਲਵੈ ਨ ਧਰਹਿ ॥ ਅੰਤਰ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਮਨਸਾ ਹਰਹਿ ॥ ਕਹਿ ਕਬੀਰ ਸੁਨਿ ਸਾਰਿਗਪਾਨ ॥ ਦੇਹਿ ਅਭੈ ਪਦੁ ਮਾਂਗਉ ਦਾਨ ॥੮॥੨॥੧੮॥੨੦॥
Millions of cupid can compete with Him not. He steals away the man's inmost heart. Says Kabir, hear Thou my supplication, O God, the Lord of the world. I ask this boon of Thee, bless Thou me with the fearless dignity.
When Kabir ji says that the avataras like Rama and Krishna were one of millions HE created, doesn’t that say they are not only ten or twelve, as Sanatna or Vashnava people claim, but in millions. After saying all that, who is worth worshiping as per Kabir ji? Are those ten twelve like millions or HIM who created all those in millions. Any one can see there is no special treatment to these avataras. Same way Guru ji treats them in the above shabad. Doesn’t it say clearly Sikhism is not about avtarvad. Rejection is clear, only those will understand who study Guru Granth Sahib in totality, the rest will keep guessing and guessing is just like dreaming.

 

[Harjas Kaur Khalsa]

ALL Gurbani you are quoting is not talking about the trade I wrote about. You punched a word” Vapaar” and start copying and pasting it even without understanding what is said in there, I posted many, did you care. No, Because you are repeating same things which were well explained long time ago. Doesn’t it occur you that you are ignoring Gurbani just to support Hinduism and their scriptures

Does it occur to you that we are on polar opposite sides of an opinion and as such, I don't accept your interpretation as correct, while you don't accept my interpretation as correct. But when I present sanatana views, somehow you feel justified in abusing it. As you claim:

Above is your quote, does it occur you that it is not like that portion of Veda where exploitation of Brahamin is in high gear, it is said” if you give this to Brahamin, you will get this, if you do this, your ancestors will get this., read Shadong Upnished, lesson 6, Khand 9 and 15. also Manu smiriti Slok 123, 125 Adhiaae10. You will see how humanity is degraded
If you were honest about it, you would acknowledge that Manu Smriti isn't accepted by all schools of Hinduism. Neither are Shiva Sutras. So talking about something you find personally obnoxious in those scriptures says nothing about sanatana Dharma as a whole. I could actuallly talk in great detail about human sacrifices and some very esoteric and complex things... but I can barely discuss common Vaishnav elements in Gurbani teachings without incredible opposition. Suffice to say, sanatana Dharma is very ancient and very broad, and deals in some elements with forces of a more negative nature. But this is not to say Sanatana Dharma as a religious philosophy is negative. It's completely positive. But if you want to look at tantric practices and tantrang mantrang and jado tuna, then yes, you will be looking at some strange things.

I find it astounding that your entire focus is on negativity, even when I quoted dozens of tuuks of Gurbani which are positive and speak of the praise of God, of the Naam which is praised in Hindu scriptures. So my point was to counterbalance this hateful negativistic opinion which keeps condemning Hindu spirituality as something evil, worthless and obscene and "disgusting." Even on these forums is an unmoderated post where someone called Nirmala Devi a Bi----, because he resented her sanatan Sikhism. So this huge hostility and one-sided discrimination is simply unacceptable, and the reason for my posting on these issues. Let's be fair. You get angry because I point out the Vaishnavism which I honestly perceive in Gurbani, and count it a matter of profound disrespect and insult... not because of what was said, but because of the tremendous hatred for Hinduism pervasive in Sikh communities. Yet, comments that claim and beat the drums loudly that ALL Hindu spirituality is based on scriptures which are worthless, obscene, evil and degrading to humanity, and disgusting... you don't see that as injustice? You don't see that as imbalance? You don't see that as unfairness? That is really pathetic. And then you conclude I have no right to ask for fairness because I degrade Sikhi by equating Guru Nanak Dev Ji's message with Vaishnavism, which I also perceive as a beautiful spiritual message. So all you are saying is, you want the right to abuse the sanatan message.

You know, all I can say is, I feel sorry for you. Say whatever you want. It is my opinion that when Gurbani says Guru is the wisdom of the Vedas, that means the wisdom of the Vedas has been incorporated into Gurubani. And I respect that Guruji's message includes sanatan elements simply from that basis, without discrimination which condemns sanatana Dharma. When I read the Gurbani that you cite, including vaaran of Bhai Gurdas Ji, I don't ignore it at all. I simply don't agree with your opinion about what it says. I do agree that according to spiritual teachings and ultimate spiritual nature, there is no caste discrimination. But realistically, socially, Sikhs are just as caste conscious as Hindus. So why make the artificial divide that Sikhism rejects the caste system, and then fail to explain why there is so much caste discrimination in Sikhism?

And the fact of the matter is, if you look at the history of Sikhism, casteism was never NOT a part of it. Even when the Jatts converted en masse under the leadership of Banda Singh Bahadur Ji, Jatts NEVER lost their caste identity or kinship ties. Even the Sikh Misls were identified and known by caste. Even the Gurus themselves were identified and known by caste. So, in analyzing WHY there is this HUGE discrepancy between assertions which claim Guru REJECTED the caste system, and why the caste system is so historically pervasive in Sikhism, it isn't just BAD Sikhs, but among the most influential, Generals, and even Maharaja Ranjit Singh, every Rajput and Khatri, Saini and Jatt knows his caste history. And it is my interpretation that Gurbani DID NOT reject caste system outright, acknowledging that caste varna system is the Will of the God. HOWEVER, clearly asserting spiritual equality and brotherhood in the teachings, where a low caste who is a Gurmukh, is equal to a brahmin, and a brahmin who is corrupted is equal to a Shudra.

I do not see how dozens of tuuks and pauris in Gurbani, PLUS the historical pattern and evidence for continuation of pervasive caste system in Sikhism is overshadowed by Bhai Gurdas Ji saying to Guru the 4 castes became one. This is entirely correct as Khalsa was a military Order, just like the Vaishnava and Shaivite Nath military Acharas which also admitted all castes to their ranks. But outside the battlefield, caste system was still continued. I don't even say this is right or wrong. I am looking at the history, looking at the Gurbani. This issue cannot be answered simplistically with one or two tuuks and vaars. It's a complex issue veer ji. And I did not start the caste system or praise injustices, or encourage Sikhs to become part of this and that. Be fair to the debate. I did not create this history, but this history DOES EXIST. And all the idealism fails to explain WHY, at the highest and most influential levels of Sikh society does caste system persist. WHY, extending beyond the rularship of Maharaja Ranjit Singh does caste system exist during the "supposedly Tat Khalsa" Sikh Misl period? And WHY does EVERY written historical record of Sikhs INCLUDE identification by caste?

No one has yet answered WHY Gurbani itself identifies Guru Ramdas Ji by caste surname. Simply quoting a vaar of Bhai Gurdas does not remove this tuuk from Gurbani, and it has yet to be adequately explained veer ji. I don't say you know the answer. Even I don't know the answer. But the weight of the historical evidence of keeping caste identification throughout Sikh history is telling, very telling. It cannot be ignored.

Who is judging, I am hinting at the truth to be find in those scriptures you repeatedly applaud and when asked to quote from those lessons, pages where degrading things are written, you start advising me not to judge their merits. Merits and demerits must be discussed, it is necessary to say all are really that good as you beat drum about them so loudly!

Not only you, but several who have commented do so in most disagreeable and abusive terms to describe Hindu religion and corruption of Hindu people. So here you are saying you have the right to beat the drum loudly to expose the faults, yet you cry about any talk regarding Sikh injustice, Sikh corruption, Sikh hypocrisy, as hurting the sentiments of Sikhs and disrespecting Sikhs.

The only point, ALL human beings are corrupted. Being a Hindu is not an automatic designation of the WORST of Hinduism, any more than being a Sikh is the GREATEST most SPIRITUAL attainment. Let's be reasonable. You want to beat the drums loudly, and here we are discussing Vaishnavism, and you are asking me to read Manu Smritis and Shiva sutras. To what purpose? Majority of Vaishnav reform rejected those hundreds of years ago.

You know veer ji, ancient Hebrews also had animal sacrifice. And this became interpreted within Christianity as special puja of the human sacrifice of Jesus. Yet, whenever I have debated with Christians, I do not go on about how anciently the Jewish scriptures say sacrifice animals. WHY? Because it's not relevant to today's practice of Christianity.

Gurbani says:

ਬੇਦ ਕਤੇਬ ਕਹਹੁ ਮਤ ਝੂਠੇ ਝੂਠਾ ਜੋ ਨ ਬਿਚਾਰੈ ॥
baedh kathaeb kehahu math jhoothae jhoothaa jo n bichaarai ||
Do not say that the Vedas, the Bible and the Koran are false. Those who do not contemplate them are false.
~SGGS Ji p. 1350​

ਆਪੇ ਸਾਸਤੁ ਆਪੇ ਬੇਦੁ ॥
aapae saasath aapae baedh ||
He Himself is the Shaastras, and He Himself is the Vedas.

ਆਪੇ ਘਟਿ ਘਟਿ ਜਾਣੈ ਭੇਦੁ ॥
aapae ghatt ghatt jaanai bhaedh ||
He knows the secrets of each and every heart.

ਜੋਤਿ ਸਰੂਪ ਜਾ ਕੀ ਸਭ ਵਥੁ ॥
joth saroop jaa kee sabh vathh ||
He is the Embodiment of Light; all beings belong to Him.
~SGGS Ji p. 1150​

ਜੂਠਿ ਨ ਰਾਗਂ​*ੀ ਜੂਠਿ ਨ ਵੇਦਂ​*ੀ ॥
jooth n raaganaee jooth n vaedhanaee ||
Impurity does not come from music; impurity does not come from the Vedas.
~SGGS Ji p. 1240​

ਆਪੇ ਵੇਦ ਪੁਰਾਣ ਸਭਿ ਸਾਸਤ ਆਪਿ ਕਥੈ ਆਪਿ ਭੀਜੈ ॥
aapae vaedh puraan sabh saasath aap kathhai aap bheejai ||
He Himself is the Vedas, the Puraanas and all the Shaastras; He Himself chants them, and He Himself is pleased.

ਆਪੇ ਹੀ ਬਹਿ ਪੂਜੇ ਕਰਤਾ ਆਪਿ ਪਰਪੰਚੁ ਕਰੀਜੈ ॥
aapae hee behi poojae karathaa aap parapanch kareejai ||
He Himself sits down to worship, and He Himself creates the world.

ਆਪਿ ਪਰਵਿਰਤਿ ਆਪਿ ਨਿਰਵਿਰਤੀ ਆਪੇ ਅਕਥੁ ਕਥੀਜੈ ॥
aap paravirath aap niravirathee aapae akathh kathheejai ||
He Himself is a householder, and He Himself is a renunciate; He Himself utters the Unutterable.

ਆਪੇ ਪੁੰਨੁ ਸਭੁ ਆਪਿ ਕਰਾਏ ਆਪਿ ਅਲਿਪਤੁ ਵਰਤੀਜੈ ॥
aapae punn sabh aap karaaeae aap alipath varatheejai ||
He Himself is all goodness, and He Himself causes us to act; He Himself remains detached.
~SGGS Ji p. 551​

So how can you persist in saying:

"As you have read a lot about these things, kindly quote from Atharva Vedas, Shiv puran, Grur Puran, Aatam Puran, manu simiriti part 3rd slok 13, part 5 slok 155, see how they tell disgusting tales. Why pick and choose policy to drag Sikhism to old mist? Do we have those kinds of disgusting stories in Guru Granth Sahib ji then why even it is being compared with those Bhain ji?. In fact what you are doing is that simple, you are comparing a pure gold with contaminated one."

Who is judging, I am hinting at the truth to be find in those scriptures you repeatedly applaud and when asked to quote from those lessons, pages where degrading things are written, you start advising me not to judge their merits. Merits and demerits must be discussed, it is necessary to say all are really that good as you beat drum about them so loudly!

You are condemning what Gurbani says the God Himself has brought into being. To what purpose? I say the purpose is to demonize Hindu religion, to degrade and humiliate Hindu teachings by gross distortion and abuse, and propagandistically fuel the hatreds dividing the Sikh-Hindu communities which have already led to so much bloodshed.

Veer ji, this cannot be right.

 

[Harjas Kaur Khalsa]

See here that is what you see, for rest you close your eyes. You are ready to criticize Muslims, Sikhs but never try to say in balance that fanatic Hindus play the same dirty game, is it fairness? Only do you have Hindu Friends?

I have publically condemned the attack on Muslim communities in Gujarat by the Bajrang Dal RSS Hindutva for years. Just check my avatar for old threads and you will yourself find some comments on this very forum. So don't accuse me of partiality to Hindus.

However, in lieu of the modern problem of fanatical jihadi mentality of violent intolerance of other religions, and the armed terrorist actions praised by political people who distort Q'uranic teaching, I Do speak against militant Islam. To be honest veer ji, when I see influential Sikhs like Simranjit Singh Mann shouting Pakistan Zindabad! You know, and I know it is an act of treason against the Indian state. When we see bombings in India which kill hundreds and arrests of terrorist militants with ties to Pakistan, how can it be ignored? It is a problem of current events all over the world. The whole world is getting swallowed up in ideologies of separatism, rejection, militant fanaticism.

Does it bode well to have radical Sikhs being arrested sending hit squads to kill dera chiefs? Does it?

Why should I praise the ideological intolerance and fundamentalism which is behind these attitudes of hostility to Hinduism and the Indian state among the Sikh Panth? Will the Sikh community be better off if we tacitly condone by ignoring? Wrong is wrong. We should speak against it. Hatred and separatism is NOT Gurbani's message. Do I have only Hindu friends? Veer ji, I am ostracized from my Sikh friends. At the moment I don't have any friends at all. I'm not speaking on behalf of some Hindutva organization. I'm speaking from my conscience. From my conviction. Don't falsely accuse like this. It's not right.

 

[Harjas Kaur Khalsa]

Fair person doesn’t ignore own Guru’s declaration, statement of those who lived with Gurus and wrote the facts. Well you are not here to find fact; this is what I have sensed. You expect fairness from all others but there is no fairness you can give to others. You called Guru Nanak Vashanava, You said that Guru himself promoted caste system, how I can swallow such lies? Where is your fairness? Isnt your moral duty to refrain from making statements which can be inflaming? You don’t care, under the name of honesty, you judge Gurus. Being a Sikh, do you think you have a license to judge them based on your a little study of Gurbani?

It is easy to blame others Bhain ji, first one need to see what is being said agaibst the Guru they adore to death.

I'm going to quote from an article.

It is thought that Sanatani views are a new ideology, but there is a long history of Sanatani thinking. A few of Sanatani views can be found even in Sikh books written in 18th century. 'Gur Bilas', 'Bansavalinama' and 'Mahma Prakash' are included in the list of such books. Sanatani views became more acceptable during Maharaja Ranjit Singh's rule in Punjab for various reasons.

Sanatanis should not be confused with those people, who show disrespect for Sri Guru Granth Sahib or other Sikh Gurus. In fact, Sanatanis show deep respect for Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. They accept it their Guru. At the same time, they also believe in Vedas and Puranas. Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji has been accepted the fifth Veda. Sanatan Sikhi - SikhiWiki, free Sikh encyclopedia.

You called Guru Nanak Vashanava, You said that Guru himself promoted caste system, how I can swallow such lies? Where is your fairness? Isnt your moral duty to refrain from making statements which can be inflaming? ​

How can it be inflaming when I perceive it to be true? You attack my opinion as lies, as idiotic, as so many things in your posts. Do I attack you this way? Is this a mature discussion of different opinions? Why are the sanatan opinions "disgusting" and "insulting?" Maybe there is something wrong in the mentality of the perceiver.

This forum isn't even giving credibility to the existance of a sanatan Sikh identity, rushing to label it's very existence as "disrespectful of," and somehow threatening to the Sikh commuity. Yet no mention of the profound and continued disrespect against the sanatan viewpoint.

Look at the history veer ji:

The original founders of the Singh Sabha movement were Sanatan or 'traditional' Sikhs, believing that the Panth certainly consisted of the followers of the Gurus but regarding it as a part of wider Hindu society... The Sanatan Sikhs, who were identified with the original Singh Sabha founded in Amritsar in I873, were opposed by a much more radical opinion centered on Lahore. The radicals were Sikhs of the Tat Khalsa, the 'True Khalsa'. For the Tat Khalsa it was impossible to be both a Hindu and a Sikh, as those of the Sanatan persuasion maintained...

During the last two decades of the nineteenth century and the beginning of the twentieth, these two groups vigorously contended for the interpretation of what it meant to be a Sikh. The Sanatan Sikhs maintained that variety was entirely permissible in the Panth and that the Panth merely marked out the Sikhs as a special group in Hindu society. In reply, the Tat Khalsa vigorously upheld the view that Sikhs emphatically were not Hindus. They also insistently asserted that the Khalsa mode was the one mode that all Sikhs either accepted or else made their ultimate objective. Ultimately victory went to the Tat Khalsa, and since the early years of the twentieth century Sikhs have been progressively learning three things. First, Sikhs are not Hindus. Secondly, Khalsa membership should be the objective of all Sikhs. Thirdly, Khalsa membership requires obedience to the Rahit. Singh Sabha

How has it come to such a point in Sikhism that mere sharing of the sanatan Sikh views has now become equated with disrespect for the Sikh identity? And somehow justification for rabid intolerance which deletes and closes posts without notice in the name of preserving some kind of Tat Khalsa anti-sanatan integrity.

No wonder you post pictures of Hindu devtas when you get chance, is it required by any standard of debate? Not at all, but that is very important. Did you see them? Are these real picture of those you talk about. Do we need these pictures?

Those devtas are being described in Gurbani. There is ample historical evidence those devtas were included in Sikh Gurdwaras and Harmandir Sahib. I'm showing that Vishnu is being described in Gurbani, in relation to the pauri praising the Das Avataaras because that is the definition of Vaishnavism. And that is why I have said Guruji is Vaishnav. I have not seen anyone correct this opinion as wrong, only ridiculous overreaction of feeling "personally offended" and "insulted" that sanatan Sikhism is expressed, has a history, and even supported by Gurbani. I don't say you have to agree with this position, but it's crazy how it is suppressed and marginalized and accused of so many hateful things. When the true hate and intolerance is evident in the suppression and accusations of "disgusting obscenity," and such. Incredible. This IS, whether you agree with it or not, a credible part of Sikh history.

The founders of the first Singh Sabha were predominantly conservative Sikhs, concerned to sustain and protect the society in which they had been nurtured. This was a society which permitted a variety of Sikh identities, different modes of worship (which included the worship of images), an emphasis upon caste and close ties binding Sikhs and Hindus together. They came, as a result, to be termed Sanatan Sikhs the 'traditional' Sikhs. Singh Sabha

So let's be honest with the truth. Hindu religion is no more corrupted and evil than Sikh Gurdwaras who rob money from the sangat
You see, that is the cause of your anger. May I ask you? Would any person of merit would attack the whole religion on the basis of personal experience with some pseudo believers?

"Disgusting." "Worthless." "Degrading." "Evil." "Obscene." "Insulting." Isn't that what you keep calling Hinduism?

"Would any person of merit would attack the whole religion on the basis of personal experience...?"

You're joking right?

 

[Harjas Kaur Khalsa]

When Kabir ji says that the avataras like Rama and Krishna were one of millions HE created, doesn’t that say they are not only ten or twelve, as Sanatna or Vashnava people claim, but in millions. After saying all that, who is worth worshiping as per Kabir ji? Are those ten twelve like millions or HIM who created all those in millions. Any one can see there is no special treatment to these avataras. Same way Guru ji treats them in the above shabad. Doesn’t it say clearly Sikhism is not about avtarvad. Rejection is clear, only those will understand who study Guru Granth Sahib in totality, the rest will keep guessing and guessing is just like dreaming.

Gurubani and even Vaisnava Puranas claim there are millions of avataars just like there are millions of worlds. But the das avataaras are special to OUR world. They have a special relationship to the 4 yugs and to the upholding of Dharma as degeneration progresses through the age. They also represent, quite on point with evolution, how humanity is progressing through the ages which is leading us to the Satyug at the completion of this age, or a spiritual leap in development.

Gurbani, contrary to your assertions does NOT disregard the Das avataaras as insignificant. I already posted whole pauri for you to look at to see attitude of Guru to the Das Avataaras was one of reverence for the God manifest in these incarnations. You don't have to accept this interpretation, but it makes no sense to keep denying there is Gurbani support for the sanatan position, or somehow to think because there are millions, they are somehow relegated to unimportance.

Rejection of avataarvaad is not at all clear when the pauri praises the Das Avataaras as Jagannatha Gopal and Parabrahm, or the 4 armed Lord who carries a chakr, mace and conch shell and calls Him Creator God. It is the imagining of rejection where there is none, which is the dreaming.

There are six kinds of incarnations: (1) the purusa-avataras, (2) the lila-avataras, (3) the guna-avataras, (4) the manvantara-avataras, (5) the yuga-avataras, and (6) the saktyavesa-avataras.

Lord Caitanya explains some of them to Sanatana Gosvami just to give him an idea of how the Lord expands and enjoys. These conclusions are also confirmed in Srimad-Bhagavatam (1.3.26). There it is said that there is no limit to the incarnations of the Supreme Lord, just as there is no limit to the waves of the ocean...

The word "dasavatara" or "dasa-avatara" denotes not a category of avataras like yuga-, lila-, manvantara-, or other avataras but the most famous list of ten avataras (in Sanskrit "dasa" = "10"). This list is to be found e.g. in Garuda Purana 1.86.10-11 (or, according to other numbering, 2.30.37). There are other lists as well, like 25 avataras in Bhagavata Purana 1.3 but these ten are the most popular ones. http://www.veda.harekrsna.cz/encyclopedia/avatars.htm

~Bhul chak maaf

 

[pk70]

I do agree that according to spiritual teachings and ultimate spiritual nature, there is no caste discrimination. But realistically, socially, Sikhs are just as caste conscious as Hindus. So why make the artificial divide that Sikhism rejects the caste system, and then fail to explain why there is so much caste discrimination in Sikhism?
Bhain ji, why you question a religion on the basis of pseudo Sikhs? How many including you and I are totally devoted to Gurbani teaching and live those teachings? How many times you felt” I am doing great as per Guru teachings’? Same thing I ask myself. Honest answer wont qualify us to grill others Sikhs

If you were honest about it, you would acknowledge that Manu Smriti isn't accepted by all schools of Hinduism. Neither are Shiva Sutras. So talking about something you find personally obnoxious in those scriptures says nothing about sanatana Dharma as a whole. I could actuallly talk in great detail about human sacrifices and some very esoteric and complex things...
I find it astounding that your entire focus is on negativity, even when I quoted dozens of tuuks of Gurbani which are positive and speak of the praise of God, of the Naam which is praised in Hindu scriptures. So my point was to counterbalance this hateful negativistic opinion which keeps condemning Hindu spirituality as something evil, worthless and "disgusting."
What I quoted are not my translation, so don’t twist, translation most of the time I use is by Manmohan Singh who understands more both languages( English and Punjabi) than Sant Singh Khalsa. I feel, you are trying to prove Sikhism has no religion, it is borrowed from Vashnava( poor guys do not have concept of Ordinance though) and Hinduism( which is a bundle od sects), it is very swear attack. You called Guru Nanak Vashnava but felt negativity in my comments about Sanatan or Vashanva religion, I wonder why you are taking sides !!!!!!!
And the fact of the matter is, if you look at the history of Sikhism, casteism was never NOT a part of it. Even when the Jatts converted en masse under the leadership of Banda Singh Bahadur Ji, Jatts NEVER lost their caste identity or kinship ties. Even the Sikh Misls were identified and known by caste.
Aren’t we discussing Gurbani with support of Bhai Gurdas ji. If some don’t follow Gurbani, does it mean that is true, you bent all the way to say Guru ji himself used his caste which is a lie, then you feel sorry for me, I think you should feel sorry for yourself for guessing and posting a lie.

I do not see how dozens of tuuks and pauris in Gurbani, PLUS the historical pattern and evidence for continuation of pervasive caste system in Sikhism is overshadowed by Bhai Gurdas Ji saying to Guru the 4 castes became one. This is entirely correct as Khalsa was a military Order, just like the Vaishnava and Shaivite Nath military Acharas

Aren’t we discussing Sikhism and caste system why Vashnavas are brought in here, what is the purpose? Why drums for them are beaten even when they are not part of issue we discuss, that scares me.

No one has yet answered WHY Gurbani itself identifies Guru Ramdas Ji by caste surname. Simply quoting a vaar of Bhai Gurdas does not remove this tuuk from Gurbani,
[/FONT] Why only you see but Bhai Gurdas ji doesn’t?. Now why his statement became insignificant because of that one word? Why that Tuk was not considered by Guru Gobind Singh ji as you do?
The only point, ALL human beings are corrupted. Being a Hindu is not an automatic designation of the WORST of Hinduism, any more than being a Sikh is the GREATEST most SPIRITUAL attainment. Let's be reasonable. You want to beat the drums loudly, and here we are discussing Vaishnavism, and you are asking me to read Manu Smritis and Shiva sutras. To what purpose? Majority of Vaishnav reform rejected those hundreds of years ago
Simply to tell you that kind of stuff exists there, Gurbani says followers of Gurbani should only accept Gurbani as True, why you beat the drum of those scriptures uncalled for, dont we have enough to move on? Do you believe more those ones or Gurbani? Lets accept Gurbani praises them but Gurbani also say truth is only Gurbani, those are about trade. Why you point on me, I am simply quoting what is said about them in Gurbani, you have very little understanding of Gurbani and you feel sorry for me, that is funny, why? If translator does poor thing, it affects your understanding.. You accept tri muthi, I quoted two shabadas one by Fifth Nanak and one by Kabir ji in which all those trimuthi conceptual entities are counted as one of the millions He created like them, how you force on Sikhs that thing by ignoring what is said in SGGS ji. In Japji Pouri 30, after describing this trimurthi concept, Guru ji keeps saying that actually it is He who runs the business not those three. Well, you don’t need any evidence from Gurbani.

You know veer ji, ancient Hebrews also had animal sacrifice. And this became interpreted within Christianity as special puja of the human sacrifice of Jesus. Yet, whenever I have debated with Christians, I do not go on about how anciently the Jewish scriptures say sacrifice animals. WHY? Because it's not relevant to today's practice of Christianity

Bhain ji, you always forget one thing, when an avalanche of quotes from Hindu scriptures is posted on, I have to tell that there are not only these things but also that bad stuff but SGGS Ji doesn’t have. Why it bothers you Bhain ji, being fair, don’t you think people should know about that stuff too. I have a lot of references about them and are very degrading and demeaning, it is part of it. You pointed out about hypocrisy of pseudo Sikhs, didn’t I agree? That was a fact. But from you, I didn’t read” Yes Veer ji, there are fanatic Hindus too who play same dirty games” Why not Bhain ji?
Lets see this following Tuk, the other one is about His creation
ਬੇਦ ਕਤੇਬ ਕਹਹੁ ਮਤ ਝੂਠੇ ਝੂਠਾ ਜੋ ਨ ਬਿਚਾਰੈ ॥
baedh kathaeb kehahu math jhoothae jhoothaa jo n bichaarai ||
Do not say that the Vedas, the Bible and the Koran are false. Those who do not contemplate them are false.
~SGGS Ji p. 1350
Because you never honestly discussed them properly to learn how good things are found there, as you Hindus say, Kuran is not true but they never discussed good stuff in there. Both Vedas and Kuran contain good stuff but most of the time people pick some thing and start declaring them lies. If you remember, as per Guru Huakm, I wrote except Gurbani nothing true; however, it is also Guru Hukm( M-3)
You just start converting Guru Nanak into other sect, how fair is this. We don’t follow them, if they are referred, it was just to tell that they were not followed; however, it is very much true that a lot of stuff added to them. That is why the cream of them was buried under added contaminations. Even against these Vedas Bhagwat Geeta speaks. Why so? Because of contamination added to them later on.
CONTINUES

 

[Harjas Kaur Khalsa]

Can any one call Guru Vashnava who believes in Tri murthy, Krishna etc? Guru ji clearly says, just take deep breath, those kind of entities are created by Him in millions. Here these Vashnavas are stuck with Tri murthy concept.

No they're not. Lol. Trimurthi is mentioned in Gurbani in a way which precisely fits the definition of AUM,/OM which is why I'm persuaded that Onkara means same thing as Omkara. That's the only reason for mentioning it. To discuss Vaishnav philosophy in Gurbani it does pivot on concept of avataaras, of Guruji being called an avataar and such.

"...here we are discussing Vaishnavism, and you are asking me to read Manu Smritis and Shiva sutras. To what purpose? Majority of Vaishnav reform rejected those hundreds of years ago..."
Simply to tell you that kind of stuff exists there, Gurbani says followers of Gurbani should only accept Gurbani as True, why you beat the drum of those scriptures uncalled for, dont we have enough to move on?

I... have read... Shiva sutras and used to study Siddha yoga... but thank you for sharing.

Do you believe more those ones or Gurbani? Lets accept Gurbani praises them but Gurbani also say truth is only Gurbani, those are about trade. Why you point on me, I am simply quoting what is said about them in Gurbani, you have very little understanding of Gurbani and you feel sorry for me, that is funny, why? If translator does poor thing, it affects your understanding..

I feel sorry for you when you are constantly saying the most derogatory things about Hinduism, not because of your separate opinions about Gurbani.

You accept tri muthi, I quoted two shabadas one by Fifth Nanak and one by Kabir ji in which all those trimuthi conceptual entities are counted as one of the millions He created like them, how you force on Sikhs that thing by ignoring what is said in SGGS ji.

Veer ji, the sansaara was created out of the three gunas, per Gurbani. And... the three gunas... are representative... of the Trimurthy... and the three states of duality consciousness in bondage to Maya... and the Eko Brahman represents the nirguna of the Fourth state... that's why there's three... It's a conceptual truth... but nevermind. It's not important. You don't have to understand.

 

[pk70]

You are condemning what Gurbani says the God Himself has brought into being. To what purpose? I say the purpose is to demonize Hindu religion, to degrade and humiliate Hindu teachings by gross distortion and abuse, and propagandistically fuel the hatreds dividing the Sikh-Hindu communities which have already led to so much bloodshed
Whenever Guru ji says, He created Vedas, He created all beings (remember good or bad), why you are after pseudo believers? They are also created by God. When Guru ji says Vedas are created by Him, they become pious, but when Guru says He created all ( Eh Vis sansaar tum dekhte Har ka roop hai” you don’t consider all pious and start a campaign against that pious creation of God , I wonder !!!!! Wismaad Wismaad..


"Disgusting." "Worthless." "Degrading." "Evil." "Obscene." "Insulting." Isn't that what you keep calling Hinduism?

"Would any person of merit would attack the whole religion on the basis of personal experience...?"

You're joking right?

What happened to you Bhain ji? You are picking those words without caring that those were used about the bad parts found in them, as in Atharva Veda, Shiv Purana, Simirities, these words were addressed to those parts, Ram Beheads low class who is contemplating on Lord, should I call it “ wonderful?’
Shiva is got crazy because of lust and lot of things happened, should I call” excellent, very inspiring? First, wife must be shared with Brahamin” should I call” what a good stuff to live in harmony, just share wives with Brahamin." Come on, you can do better.