Sikhism Is Not The Same As Hinduism, Islam Or Christianity Etc

[pk70]

ਸਚੈ ਆਪਣਾ ਖੇਲੁ ਰਚਾਇਆ ਆਵਾ ਗਉਣੁ ਪਾਸਾਰਾ ॥
sachai aapanaa khael rachaaeiaa aavaa goun paasaaraa ||
The True Lord has staged and contrived His own play; the expanse of the Universe comes and goes.
~SGGS Ji p. 754

Here Bhain ji you are only looking at Brahma, Bisan, Mahesa as part of HIS body but over looking” sabh utpat sansaara”, that is also part of His body, why we should stuck only with Brahma, Bisan and Mahes. Isnt it same Mahes in yesterday quotes described as helpless? I wonder why only names are picked up and distorted the whole message
By japping Naam you are uniting the consciousness with the sound current which is the heart of creation and the Creator Himself. The sargun forms of the nirguna have no relevance, because it is the Divine Consciousness, the Jyot of the Nirguna which made the sargun forms purposeful, able to fulfill the hukam. You say the Sikhs only have hukam, Vaishnavs don't have this concept. As you admit you have limited knowledge of Vaishnav philosophy, I wonder why you continue to preach what is the Vaishnav philosophy and distort it all the time. Does this make sense? I'm surprised to be asked not to cite Wikepedia, yet the most unsupported denunciations of Hindu philosophy are made and no one puts these assertions on the "hotseat." Yet any assertion of mine is run over several cliffs and then deleted or thread closed to moderate a particular viewpoint. The oppositional views don't even bother to investigate what they are accusing. They just label something or make an accusation, and this is accepted. Yet I am asked for percentages, proofs, definitive and corroborative sources, etc. How can anyone speak of fairness on this forum when I am moderated so much, and no one else is.
You are knowledgeable Bhain ji about Vashnava, I am not and I don’t feel to learn about them, Guru Nanak door is enough for me, all others are immaterial for me; however, being knowledgeable of Vashnva, kindly define the same concept of Hukam as in found in Gurbani. To my knowledge, you never addressed it. What you did was that avatars come under His hukam, that is very naive expression of concept of Hukam repeatedly stressed in Gurbani. Hukam word doesn’t exist in their dictionary as I read an article on Vashnava.
Lets see the following Guru Vaak in context of totality of Guru Message( I deleted some to make it short idea is still there
ਮਛੁ ਕਛੁ ਕੂਰਮੁ ਆਗਿਆ ਅਉਤਰਾਸੀ ॥
mashh kashh kooram aagiaa aoutharaasee ||
By the Pleasure of His Will, He took incarnation as the great fish and the tortoise.
[/FONT]ਕੇਸਵ ਚਲਤ ਕਰਹਿ ਨਿਰਾਲੇ ਕੀਤਾ ਲੋੜਹਿ ਸੋ ਹੋਇਗਾ ॥੮॥
kaesav chalath karehi niraalae keethaa lorrehi so hoeigaa ||8||
[/FONT] The Lord of beauteous hair, the Worker of miraculous deeds, whatever He wishes, comes saaval sundhar roop banaavehi baen sunath sabh mohaigaa ||9||
He assumed the beautiful form of the blue-skinned Krishna; hearing His flute, all are fascinated and enticed. ||9||
~SGGS Ji p. 1082
All above, Guru ji defines His Sargun form, when He is in His nature, how the names mentioned above can be different from Him. Issue is not that, issue is whom, Sikhs are advised to worship? Guru ji is giving example after example that all you guys are talking about, and giving credit to them, actually He is the one who does so. Numerous times we discussed that, Sargun Sroop is not worth worshiping as we do Him as per Gurbani because Gurbani also look at them differently as Ram’s Cries, and krishana’s deception, Shiva’s frustration. Obviously stress is on His infinity, any one see other than that, I swear, has ignored the idea expressed in Guru message in totality. I am not boasting, the more I read SGGS Ji, the more pictures became clear. Pining for the Infinite is advocated. His beyond birth is stressed through out SGGS Ji.

We see from Gurbani that the avataaras are a manifestation of the all-pervading Lord, nirguna. And that they took incarnation according to His will, hukam. So how can we say the avataaras don't keep the Hukam of God's command? When Gurbani is saying the Lord Himself took incarnation?
If for a second I agree with you, how you will define the following, you read it but don’t remember it
ਏਕਮ ਏਕੰਕਾਰੁ ਨਿਰਾਲਾ ॥ ਅਮਰੁਅਜੋਨੀਜਾਤਿਨਜਾਲਾ॥ਅਗਮਅਗੋਚਰੁਰੂਪੁਨਰੇਖਿਆ ॥ ਖੋਜਤ ਖੋਜਤ ਘਟਿ ਘਟਿ ਦੇਖਿਆ ॥ ਜੋ ਦੇਖਿ ਦਿਖਾਵੈ ਤਿਸ ਕਉ ਬਲਿ ਜਾਈ ॥ ਗੁਰ ਪਰਸਾਦਿ ਪਰਮ ਪਦੁ ਪਾਈ ॥੧॥
The first (Lunar day): The Unique Lord is Peerless, Immortal,Unborn, and without caste and involvement. He is Unapproachable and Unapprehensible and has no form or outline. Searching and searching, I have seen Him in all the hearts. Devoted am I unto him, who sees and makes others see the Lord. By Guru's grace I have obtained the Supreme status.
How come Bhain ji Guru ji denies His being coming in to bodies, to understand this mystery, lets take example of Air. Air is in you, in me and is every where, the air in you and me is also every where, how you or me can claim it is only in us. His pervading in His creation is like that. When Guru ji describes His creation, he uses words to convey His presence in these all mentioned above but continuously Guru ji says” don’t get wrong, He is Ajooni(beyond birth)” Why? So that we should not stuck with avatarvad and forget the Real One. It is that simple. If Gurbani considered [/FONT]Krishna[/FONT] as God, it wouldn’t question [/FONT]Krishna[/FONT]’s deception but it did. So [/FONT] all the cries here are due to misunderstanding Concept of God and His presence in His creation.
Yes, all the sargun forms have turned to dust. It isn't the forms we worship, but the Divine Light pervading within them.
When you say divine light pervading in those guys and that is what is worshiped , how you can avoid stories attached to them while contemplating on them. Wouldnt it be deceiving yourself because Infinite is more attached with calm compared to Sargun Form; who contemplate on Rama, they know what they are doing, all Rama and the story attached to him stays in mind, same case is with Krishna. why even we need to remember those who turned dust, why just not bring smiling flowers in mind to smell His fragrance, His amazing creation, His being infinite beyond space, why those guys with so disgusting stories we should use as aid to recite His Naam? Is it necessary? Is this way only enlightenment occurs.
Below are your quotes Bhain ji, lets see if they say what you have been advocating or what Guru Nanak says
ਏਕ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨੰ ਸਰਬ ਦੇਵਾ ਦੇਵ ਦੇਵਾ ਤ ਆਤਮਾ ॥
eaek kirasanan sarab dhaevaa dhaev dhaevaa th aathamaa ||
The One Lord Krishna is the Divine Lord of all; He is the Divinity of the individual soul.
Here the translator uses” Lord” with Krishna, you think it is all about Krishna( may be he also thinks that way) but it is not, lets see why, see the next blow Vaak, Vasudeva is not krishan, Krishna himself says in Bhagvat Geeta that” I am son of Vasudeva”, we take meaning of Krishanan( Bhai Veer Singh, DR Sahib Singh, Manmohan Singh, Bhai Kahan Singh ) asThe Lord”, now in next Vaak, Guru says if any one understands the difference of soul and soul of God, I am, his slave and he is like pure Lord. Here Krishan word is not used for Krishna of Geeta but the Lord Himself.
ਆਤਮਾ ਬਾਸੁਦੇਵਸ੍ਯ੍ਯਿ ਜੇ ਕੋ ਜਾਣੈ ਭੇਉ ॥ਨਾਨਕੁ ਤਾ ਕਾ ਦਾਸੁ ਹੈ ਸੋਈ ਨਿਰੰਜਨ ਦੇਉ ॥੪॥
aathamaa baasudhaevasiy jae ko jaanai bhaeo || naanak thaa kaa dhaas hai soee niranjan dhaeo ||4||
Nanak is a slave to anyone who understands this mystery of the all-pervading Lord; he himself is the Immaculate Divine Lord. ||4||
~SGGS Ji p. 469
Now lets look at your quote below
ਸਾਵਲ ਸੁੰਦਰ ਰੂਪ ਬਣਾਵਹਿ ਬੇਣੁ ਸੁਨਤ ਸਭ ਮੋਹੈਗਾ ॥੯॥
saaval sundhar roop banaavehi baen sunath sabh mohaigaa ||9||
He assumed the beautiful form of the blue-skinned Krishna; hearing His flute, all are fascinated and enticed. ||9|| [/FONT]NOTE word is “ banave” means create not assume No wonder misunderstanding continues
[/FONT]ਬਨਮਾਲਾ ਬਿਭੂਖਨ ਕਮਲ ਨੈਨ ॥
banamaalaa bibhookhan kamal nain ||
He is adorned with garlands of flowers, with lotus eyes.
[/FONT] ਸੁੰਦਰ ਕੁੰਡਲ ਮੁਕਟ ਬੈਨ ॥
sundhar kunddal mukatt bain ||
His ear-rings, crown and flute are so beautiful. ,
ਸੰਖ ਚਕ੍ਰ ਗਦਾ ਹੈ ਧਾਰੀ ਮਹਾ ਸਾਰਥੀ ਸਤਸੰਗਾ ॥੧੦॥
sankh chakr gadhaa hai dhhaaree mehaa saarathhee sathasangaa ||10||
He carries the conch, the chakra and the war club; He is the Great Charioteer, who stays with His Saints. ||10||
ਜਗੰਨਾਥੁ ਗੋਪਾਲੁ ਮੁਖਿ ਭਣੀ ॥
jagannaathh gopaal mukh bhanee ||
The Lord of the Universe, the Lord of the world; with my mouth, I chant His Name.
~SGGS Ji p. 1082
Who assumed the form of Krishna? According to Gurbani, it is the Lord of the universe whose name we chant.
Bhain ji if you see here only Krishna in above Guru Vaak but not Him as a whole sargun form, read the following, Guru ji says, He is fish, fisherman, net and bait. Should we consider by the same token fish also a guiding light because Guru said He is in her too. Tragedy is this, Gurbani is not understood in totality. Gurbani keeps telling about all known or unknown as His Sargun form but inspires the followers to move on, only some Vashnava can stuck to incarnations but not true Gurbani followers . Kindly read it this time
ਰੰਗਿ ਰਤਾ ਮੇਰਾ ਸਾਹਿਬੁ ਰਵਿ ਰਹਿਆ ਭਰਪੂਰਿ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
My Master is dyed with love and is fully pervading every where. Pause.
ਆਪੇ ਮਾਛੀ ਮਛੁਲੀ ਆਪੇ ਪਾਣੀ ਜਾਲੁ ॥ ਆਪੇ ਜਾਲ ਮਣਕੜਾ ਆਪੇ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਲਾਲੁ ॥੨॥
He Himself is the fisherman and the fish and Himself the water and the net. He Himself is the metal ball of the net and Himself the bait within. Now let’s see what the following quotes say in fact considering one fact that it is not verse but poetry
ਆਪੇ ਗੋਪੀ ਕਾਨੁ ਹੈ ਪਿਆਰਾ ਬਨਿ ਆਪੇ ਗਊ ਚਰਾਹਾ ॥
aapae gopee kaan hai piaaraa ban aapae goo charaahaa ||
The Beloved Himself is the milk-maid and Krishna; He Himself herds the cows in the woods.
[/FONT]ਆਪੇ ਸਾਵਲ ਸੁੰਦਰਾ ਪਿਆਰਾ ਆਪੇ ਵੰਸੁ ਵਜਾਹਾ ॥
[/FONT] ਕਰਿ ਬਾਲਕ ਰੂਪ ਉਪਾਇਦਾ ਪਿਆਰਾ ਚੰਡੂਰੁ ਕੰਸੁ ਕੇਸੁ ਮਾਰਾਹਾ ॥
kar baalak roop oupaaeidhaa piaaraa chanddoor kans kaes maaraahaa ||
[/FONT] The Beloved Himself assumed the form of the child, and killed the demons Chandoor, Kansa and Kaysee.
ਸਭੁ ਆਪੇ ਜਗਤੁ ਉਪਾਇਦਾ ਪਿਆਰਾ ਵਸਿ ਆਪੇ ਜੁਗਤਿ ਹਥਾਹਾ ॥
sabh aapae jagath oupaaeidhaa piaaraa vas aapae jugath hathhaahaa ||
The Beloved Himself created the whole world. In His hands He holds the power of the ages.
~SGGS Ji p. 606
Again whatever is expressed above is about His Infinity and His Sargun form, His presence in Sargun Form and His power, all credit given to Sargun Form; however, people gave credit to those individuals only and thought they were God. I do not see any thing that can prove Guru ji sending us to those named above. He creates Krishna, He creates Gopi as He is in Fish, fisherman, net. Guru ji also says He is behind all show, what is new here? What does it prove?
ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰ ਨਾਨਕ ਦੇਉ ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰਿ ਆਕਾਰ ਬਣਾਇਆ ।
nirankaar naanak dayu nirankaari aakaar banaaiaa|
The formless Lord assumed the form of Guru Nanak Dev who is second all forms.
Bhain ji, poor translator translates” banaeea= to make” in to “assume”, that can give you wrong signal, do not depend on him Here Formless Lords’ blessings are expressed, He created Nanak
ਗੁਰੁ ਅੰਗਦੁ ਗੁਰੁ ਅੰਗ ਤੇ ਗੰਗਹੁ ਜਾਣੁ ਤਰੰਗ ਉਠਾਇਆ ।
guru angadu guru ang tay gangahu jaanu tarang utdaaiaa|
In turn, he created Guru Angad from his limbs as the waves created by Ganges.
again, Ganges hasn’t created any thing, translator is just struggling but failed to convey message, in simple words Guru Nanak blessed Guru Angad as of his own part, means worthy of that jyot Formless put in Guru Nanak by the Lord
ਆਸੰਭਉ ਉਦਵਿਅਉ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਪੂਰਨ ਬਿਧਾਤਉ ॥
aasanbho oudhaviao purakh pooran bidhhaatho ||
The Self-existent, Perfect Primal Lord God Creator has taken birth.
Bhain ji, "oudavio" means to come in to light but it doesn’t mean taking birth
It should be” Self existent Creator shown up light in this world, or came into light, incarnation is not discussed here.( He has mediums why would He take birth?)
ਅੰਗਦ ਅਮਰ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਸਬਦਿ ਸਮਾਇਅਉ ॥
naanak aadh angadh amar sathigur sabadh samaaeiao ||
First, Guru Nanak, then Guru Angad and Guru Amar Daas, the True Guru, have been absorbed into the Word of the Shabad.
~SGGS Ji p. 1407
ਤ੍ਰੇਤੈ ਤੈ ਮਾਣਿਓ ਰਾਮੁ ਰਘੁਵੰਸੁ ਕਹਾਇਓ ॥
thraethai thai maaniou raam raghuvans kehaaeiou ||
In the Silver Age of Traytaa Yuga, You were called Raam of the Raghu dynasty.
Again Bhat Kall is saying it is the same light Lord put back in Ram and Krishna, same light is in Guru Nanak and other Gurus, Guru Nanak also writes that” oh God there was time when Ram, Krishna were worshiped as you, now those names are [/FONT] replaced with Islamic ones. What Guru ji says is simple” All is His play” All religions are created by Him, all founders of religions are created by Him. Nothing is beyond His Ordinance. Bhat Nall is just complimenting God and Guru. Just comparing light with others well known in so called tertai Yug
ਕਲਿਜੁਗਿ ਪ੍ਰਮਾਣੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਗੁਰੁ ਅੰਗਦੁ ਅਮਰੁ ਕਹਾਇਓ ॥
kalijug pramaan naanak gur angadh amar kehaaeiou ||
In the Iron Age, the Dark Age of Kali Yuga, You are known and accepted as Guru Nanak, Guru Angad and Guru Amar Das.
To understand this, one must not take these verses as astrology statement from Bhat ji. Here basically Guru ji is not just simple individual but like all worshiped people in the past.
ਸ੍ਰੀ ਗੁਰੂ ਰਾਜੁ ਅਬਿਚਲੁ ਅਟਲੁ ਆਦਿ ਪੁਰਖਿ ਫੁਰਮਾਇਓ ॥੭॥
sree guroo raaj abichal attal aadh purakh furamaaeiou ||7||
The sovereign rule of the Great Guru is unchanging and permanent, according the Command of the Primal Lord God. ||7||
~SGGS Ji p. 1390
You see here, it comes down to Him, Sikhism has a beauty of glorifying Him even as Sant or Guru. Guru ji himself credits every thing to HIM for every thing including their panth, teachings.
Following is taken( you quoted) from Sad written by Sunder ji at the time of passing away of Third Nanak, here caste system’s is not addressed at all, to take Sodhi word and negate the fundamental principle of Sikhism is totally wrong. I shall prove you below
ਹਰਿ ਭਾਇਆ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਬੋਲਿਆ ਹਰਿ ਮਿਲਿਆ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਸੁਜਾਣੁ ਜੀਉ ॥
har bhaaeiaa sathigur boliaa har miliaa purakh sujaan jeeo ||
The Lord was pleased as the True Guru spoke; he was blended then with the all-knowing Primal Lord God.

ਰਾਮਦਾਸ ਸੋਢੀ ਤਿਲਕੁ ਦੀਆ ਗੁਰ ਸਬਦੁ ਸਚੁ ਨੀਸਾਣੁ ਜੀਉ ॥੫॥
raamadhaas sodtee thilak dheeaa gur sabadh sach neesaan jeeo ||5||
The Guru then blessed the Sodhi Ram Das with the ceremonial tilak mark, the insignia of the True Word of the Shabad. ||5||
~SGGS Ji p. 923

Gurbani is naming Guru Ram Das ji by His caste, Sodhi. Why is this, if Sikhism doesn't accept caste? Not only that, but Gurbani says Guruji placed a tilak mark on the forehead of Guru Ram Das Ji. Why is that? Why is Guru wearing a tilak mark?
If Sunder Ji uses Guru’s last name does it mean Guru believe in caste system? Facts are otherwise, either you are wrong or Guru and Sunder ji who wrote this are wrong as per your claim. Guru cannot be wrong, let me prove it with evidence
Guru ji named his sons but didn’t use last name either for himself or for his own sons, other Singhs followed that because Caste system was rejected , every one drank from same pot during Amrit ceremony, that was total [/FONT] revolution, High class of Sodhis or others were totally neglected. Denial has no merit.

• Very clearly below Bhai Gurdas ji says that caste system was turned into one caste, if any one is determined to ignore that, noting can be done

Read the following by Bhai Gurdas Ji on Caste system, why he is saying that? Is he assuming or really following what he learnt while staying close to Guru
8 ਸੁਣੀ ਪੁਕਾਰਿ ਦਾਤਾਰ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਗੁਰੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਜਗ ਮਾਹਿ ਪਠਾਇਆ ।
sunee pukaari daataar prabhu guru naanak jag maahi patdaaiaa|
The benefactor Lord listened to the cries (of humanity) and sent Guru Nanak to this world.
……………………………………………………………….
Line 3 ਚਾਰੇ ਪੈਰ ਧਰਮ ਦੇ ਚਾਰਿ ਵਰਨਿ ਇਕੁ ਵਰਨੁ ਕਰਾਇਆ ।
chaaray pair dharam day chaari varani iku varanu karaaiaa|
Dharma was now established on its four feet and all the four castes (through fraternal feeling) were converted into one caste (of humanity).
Line 4 ਰਾਣਾ ਰੰਕੁ ਬਰਾਬਰੀ ਪੈਰੀ ਪਾਵਣਾ ਜਗਿ ਵਰਤਾਇਆ ।
raanaa ranku baraabaree pairee paavanaa jagi varataaiaa|
Equating the poor with the prince, he spread the etiquette of humbly touching the feet.
Line 7 ਕਲਿ ਤਾਰਣਿ ਗੁਰੁ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਆਇਆ ॥੨੩॥
kali taarani guru naanaku aaiaa ॥23॥
Guru Nanak came to redeem the kaliyug.
Who did reject caste system first time in Indian History in so massive way? Sanatani or Vashnava? NO, only Sikh Gurus did, they deserve that credit, please.

 

[Harjas Kaur Khalsa]

Harjas Ji,

Aren't you taking the meanings of SGGS too literally.

By a mention of the 4 varans, doesn't give the seal that Sikhism supports the division. As you know Sikhism had 10 human Gurus. It took 10 Gurus to provide the structure and essence of SGGS with the addition of other authors. This couldn't be possible with Guru Nanak's lifespan alone. In the realm of Time and Space, the laws of nature takes the stronghold. The teachings had to unfold in stages.

Do you agree or disagree ?

Either we believe in Gurbani or we don't. No, I don't accept that Guruji (One Jyot in 10 physical forms founded a "new religion" which defined itsef as being against caste system, yet Guru Ramdas Ji is described in Gurbani by caste. Yet, somehow this means there was a gradual evolution of this distinction of this new religious movement which would eventually, though not unequivocally stated in Gurbani, amount to rejection of the caste system they had formerly acknowledged as being a design of the God.) You can't just accept some things and reject others, and then add interpretations which aren't there to create your own philosophy and call it Guruji's Sikhism.

If I believed Sikhism had 10 "only" human Gurus, then they would have only arguable opinion. How could we then accept Guruship of such "confused" teachings of Shri Guru Granth Sahib Ji which change and evolve over time according to who was the author of the particular bani? And the answer is, Shri Guru Granth Sahib is not merely some book written by mere men with meaningless phrases which I can refute or discard ad lib. Clearly, either SGGS Ji is the Divine Shabad-Jyot, Guru in every page, or it is simply a piece of literature. I accept that it is the Divine Jyot, and it is our human understandings which oversimplify, and add on to what we haven't analyzed or understood properly or within context. Even this is too weak a point of debate. If Sikhism defines itself as contrary to Hinduism on the basis of rejecting caste differences, how can you explain why the Guru (SGGS Ji) after 10 forms and several bhagats could not manage to clearly state this?

Shri Guru Granth Sahib Ji contains the Shabad-Jyot of Guruji (Nanak 1) which is consciousness merged with Timeless God. I find it astounding, that on so critical a point as people assert without analysis, that Sikhism doesn't believe or doesn't accept caste system. Yet we know the Guru's physical forms all married within their caste, and even caste of Guru is mentioned in Gurbani. Are you implying this was an accident? The fact is, there are many inconsistencies like this, including the historical pattern among Sikhs to uphold and marry within their caste. Sikhs will traditionally marry their children to a Hindu of the same caste, than a Sikh of a different caste. So certainly on many points besides the Gurbani, socio-historical points, the illusion that caste divides Sikhism from Hinduism has no foundation.

So in analyzing such "controversial" tuuks of Gurbani, we can reconcile them to show that Guruji accepted that caste system is part of the order designed by God. But the caste system is broken and unjust, even Hindus will acknowledge that. The reformers within Hinduism say the caste/varna/occupational system has become corrupted to a form of hereditary social injustice. Originally, varna, which means "color" applied to one's temperament and inclination. And according to such temperament and aspiration, one could devote oneself to God and become, a Brahmin, regardless of caste. That is the Vaishnav philosophy.

“All men are brothers; no one is big, no one is small. All are equal.” ~Rig Veda​

ਅਧਮ ਚੰਡਾਲੀ ਭਈ ਬ੍ਰਹਮਣੀ ਸੂਦੀ ਤੇ ਸ੍ਰੇਸਟਾਈ ਰੇ ॥
adhham chanddaalee bhee brehamanee soodhee thae sraesattaaee rae ||
The lowly outcaste becomes a Brahmin, and the untouchable sweeper becomes pure and sublime.
~SGGS Ji p. 381​

As per Vaishnav tradition, anyone who japs the Naams of God with bhakti, regardless of caste distinctions, becomes equal to a brahmin.

As per shloka numbered IV (13) of the Bhagavad Gita, depending upon a person’s guna (aptitude) and karma (actions), there are four varnas. As per this shloka, a person’s varna is determined by his guna and karma, and not by his birth. Chapter XIV of the Bhagavad Gita specifies three gunas viz. satva (purity), rajas (passion and attachment) and tamas (ignorance). These three gunas are present in every human in different proportions, and determine the varna of every person. Hinduism does not permit caste system

ਪੰਡਿਤ ਸੰਗਿ ਵਸਹਿ ਜਨ ਮੂਰਖ ਆਗਮ ਸਾਸ ਸੁਨੇ ॥
panddith sang vasehi jan moorakh aagam saas sunae ||
The fool may live with the Pandit, the religious scholar, and listen to the Vedas and the Shaastras.

ਅਪਨਾ ਆਪੁ ਤੂ ਕਬਹੁ ਨ ਛੋਡਸਿ ਸੁਆਨ ਪੂਛਿ ਜਿਉ ਰੇ ॥੪॥
apanaa aap thoo kabahu n shhoddas suaan pooshh jio rae ||4||
You can never escape your own inner tendencies, like the crooked tail of the dog. ||4||

ਇਕਿ ਪਾਖੰਡੀ ਨਾਮਿ ਨ ਰਾਚਹਿ ਇਕਿ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਚਰਣੀ ਰੇ ॥
eik paakhanddee naam n raachehi eik har har charanee rae ||
Some are hypocrites; they do not merge with the Naam, the Name of the Lord. Some are absorbed in the Feet of the Lord, Har, Har.

ਪੂਰਬਿ ਲਿਖਿਆ ਪਾਵਸਿ ਨਾਨਕ ਰਸਨਾ ਨਾਮੁ ਜਪਿ ਰੇ ॥੫॥੪॥
poorab likhiaa paavas naanak rasanaa naam jap rae ||5||4||
The mortals obtain what they are predestined to receive; O Nanak, with your tongue, chant the Naam. ||5||4||
~SGGS Ji p. 990​

Our tendancies cling to us and determine our temperament and level of spiritual jeevan. This is the original definition of caste/varna system.

Devotion concentrated on He absolves even the Svapakas (who cook and eat the flesh of dogs) from stigma attaching to their birth’.(Bhagavata Purana,XI.14). To protect Hinduism from baneful effects of ritualism different Acharyas gave new interpretations of Upanishadic doctrines. Acharyas like Ramanuja, Nimbarka, Madhva and Vallabha emphasized on devotion to a personal god as the way of liberation. Personal god in the form of Vishnu or Krishna or Rama is regarded as being responsible for the creation, preservation and destruction of the universe. It is not the number of religious observances nor the richness of materials used for worship but the sincerity, the faith and the sense of complete surrender to one’s personal god is the essence of bhakti. Age, sex, caste or any other social identity does not come in between a true devotee and his god.VAISHNAVITE MOVEMENTS

ਖਟੁ ਕਰਮ ਕੁਲ ਸੰਜੁਗਤੁ ਹੈ ਹਰਿ ਭਗਤਿ ਹਿਰਦੈ ਨਾਹਿ ॥
khatt karam kul sanjugath hai har bhagath hiradhai naahi ||
One who performs the six religious rituals and comes from a good family, but who does not have devotion to the Lord in his heart,

ਚਰਨਾਰਬਿੰਦ ਨ ਕਥਾ ਭਾਵੈ ਸੁਪਚ ਤੁਲਿ ਸਮਾਨਿ ॥੧॥
charanaarabindh n kathhaa bhaavai supach thul samaan ||1||
one who does not appreciate talk of the Lord's Lotus Feet, is just like an outcaste, a pariah. ||1||

ਰੇ ਚਿਤ ਚੇਤਿ ਚੇਤ ਅਚੇਤ ॥
rae chith chaeth chaeth achaeth ||
Be conscious, be conscious, be conscious, O my unconscious mind.

ਕਾਹੇ ਨ ਬਾਲਮੀਕਹਿ ਦੇਖ ॥
kaahae n baalameekehi dhaekh ||
Why do you not look at Baalmeek?

ਕਿਸੁ ਜਾਤਿ ਤੇ ਕਿਹ ਪਦਹਿ ਅਮਰਿਓ ਰਾਮ ਭਗਤਿ ਬਿਸੇਖ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
kis jaath thae kih padhehi amariou raam bhagath bisaekh ||1|| rehaao ||
From such a low social status, what a high status he obtained! Devotional worship to the Lord is sublime! ||1||Pause||

ਸੁਆਨ ਸਤ੍ਰੁ ਅਜਾਤੁ ਸਭ ਤੇ ਕ੍ਰਿਸ੍ਨ ਲਾਵੈ ਹੇਤੁ ॥
suaan sathra ajaath sabh thae kirasa laavai haeth ||
The killer of dogs, the lowest of all, was lovingly embraced by Krishna.

ਲੋਗੁ ਬਪੁਰਾ ਕਿਆ ਸਰਾਹੈ ਤੀਨਿ ਲੋਕ ਪ੍ਰਵੇਸ ॥੨॥
log bapuraa kiaa saraahai theen lok pravaes ||2||
See how the poor people praise him! His praise extends throughout the three worlds. ||2||
~SGGS Ji p. 1124
​

Several critics of Hinduism state that the caste system is rooted in the varna system mentioned in the ancient Hindu scriptures.[18] However, many groups, such as ISKCON, consider the modern Indian caste system and the varna system as two distinct concepts.[19][20] Many European scholars from the colonial era regarded the Manusmriti as the "law book" of the Hindus, and thus concluded that the caste system is a part of Hinduism, an assertion that is rejected by many Hindu scholars, who state that it is an anachronistic social practice, not a religious one.[21][22][23][24]

Although many Hindu scriptures contain passages that can be interpreted to sanction the caste system, they also contain indications that the caste system is not an essential part of Hinduism. The Vedas place very little importance on the caste system, mentioning caste only rarely and in a cursory manner. In the Vedic period, there was no prohibition against the Shudras (which later on became the low-castes) listening to the Vedas or participating in any religious rite...[25]

Many bhakti period saints such as Nanak, Kabir, Caitanya, Dnyaneshwar, Eknath, Ramananda, Ramanuja and Tukaram rejected all caste-based discrimination and accepted disciples from all the castes. Many Hindu reformers such as Swami Vivekananda and Sathya Sai Baba believe that there is no place for the caste system in Hinduism. The 15th century saint Ramananda also accepted all castes, including untouchables, into his fold. Most of these saints subscribed to the Bhakti movements in Hinduism during the medieval period that rejected casteism. Nandanar, a low-caste Hindu cleric, also rejected casteism and accepted Dalits.[80] Some other movements in Hinduism have also welcomed lower-castes into their fold, the earliest being the Bhakti movements of the medieval period.
Caste system in India - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

ਰਾਮਾਨੰਦ ਸੁਆਮੀ ਰਮਤ ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ॥
raamaanandh suaamee ramath breham ||
Raamaanand's Lord and Master is the All-pervading Lord God.

ਗੁਰ ਕਾ ਸਬਦੁ ਕਾਟੈ ਕੋਟਿ ਕਰਮ ॥੩॥੧॥
gur kaa sabadh kaattai kott karam ||3||1||
The Word of the Guru's Shabad eradicates the karma of millions of past actions. ||3||1||
~SGGS Ji p. 1195​

...they both point to the importance of Ramanandis, and particularly Ramanandis in the Jaipur region, in the formation of soldiering orders among Vaishnavas. That a Vaishnava call to arms should have been associated with the increased influence of Ramanandis is not surprising, since the social liberalism that is associated with Ramanand would have facilitated the process of military recruitment by opening monastic ranks to the lowly. This point is underlined in Ayodhya itself, where a banner emblazoned with Swami Ramanand’s famous admonition against inequality—“Ask not of caste and the like, if you love God you belong to God”—decorates the entrance to the Hanuman Garhi, the main headquarters of Vaishnava soldier monasticism in north India...

In the 1720s and until his death in 1743, Maharaja Jai Singh II evinced a strong interest in religious affairs, particularly religious affairs having to do with the Vaishnava institutions in his realm. And, not unlike Warren Hastings a half century later, Jai Singh II apparently looked askance at the phenomenon of armed monasticism and sought to discourage it. To this end, he solicited and received four separate bond agreements containing pledges from prominent Vaishnava mahants, nine of whom identify themselves clearly as “Ramanandi,” to give up the practice of keeping arms and to boycott or otherwise punish those who continued to do so.

From separate correspondences it is evident that the Maharaja also solicited opinions from Bengali Vaishnavas regarding the rights of shudras and other low classes, and obtained pledges from Ramanandi mahants and other Vaishnavas not only to maintain strict caste rules in commensal relations but to no longer accept shudra and antyaj (low-born) disciples. The fact that Jai Singh II’s efforts to impose orthodox behavior on Vaishnava monks involved the demilitarization of the armed akharas in tandem with the barring of low-born novitiates suggests that arms and low status were connected not just in the Maharaja’s vision of a neo-orthodox Vaishnavism but in the social-historical reality of Ramanandi monasticism

Hence, though questions and ambiguities remain, both Vaishnava and Shaiva monastic traditions evince links between soldiering and low status. What requires further elucidation are questions regarding functionality and causation: namely, did the need for an armed defense on the part of the monastic orders compel a relaxation of social restrictions in order to spur recruitment? Or, conversely, was the arming of monks the result of the influx of peasants (as with pastoralist-cum-peasant Jats in the Sikh case) and others of low or marginal status into monastic communities, and if so why was militarism the result of that influx? (This is a question that needs greater elaboration with respect to Sikhs as well.) A third possibility that must be considered and that, by implication, obscures any functional relationship between militarization and social change is that the history of monastic soldiering has been used in the more recent past by conservative, high-caste elements in the orders to explain (by way of apologizing for) the contemporary presence therein of shudras, untouchables, and women.
Peasants and Monks in British India

So how did Sikh Guru's feel about caste? From Gurbani they didn't reject or dissociate from it outright. It's true purpose within social and spiritual circles is clarified as a point of anti-discrimination against a brotherhood of man which was a true revolutionary reform, although one which transpired within context of a larger and older Vaishnav reform. Hence I must reject caste system as a point of departure between the philosophy of Guru Nanak and Hinduism, rather than within context of a reform movement against social injustices of ritualized corruptions which Vaishnava sampradyas of the time, were also against.

ਜਾਣਹੁ ਜੋਤਿ ਨ ਪੂਛਹੁ ਜਾਤੀ ਆਗੈ ਜਾਤਿ ਨ ਹੇ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
jaanahu joth n pooshhahu jaathee aagai jaath n hae ||1|| rehaao ||
Recognize the Lord's Light within all, and do not consider social class or status; there are no classes or castes in the world hereafter. ||1||Pause||
~SGGS Ji p. 349​

~Bhul chak maaf karni ji

 

[Harjas Kaur Khalsa]

Here Bhain ji you are only looking at Brahma, Bisan, Mahesa as part of HIS body but over looking” sabh utpat sansaara”, that is also part of His body, why we should stuck only with Brahma, Bisan and Mahes.

Ek Om Kar. One Trimurthi Creator. The One All-pervading nirguna creates the sarguna, Trimurthi (Three gods Vishnu, Brahma, Mahesh), which includes the nasal bindu expressing this was out of the unstruck sound current of the Nada, and out of the three gunas of the Trimurthi, created the whole of sansaara. The Vedic definitions of Ekakshara or Omkara include that the All-pervading Primary One Parabrahm subsumes the Trimurthi and all creation within His body. So I fail to grasp what is overlooked in the Vedic definition. It is after all, a definition of the totality of the One (Eko Brahman) All-Pervading.

kindly define the same concept of Hukam as in found in Gurbani. To my knowledge, you never addressed it. What you did was that avatars come under His hukam, that is very naive expression of concept of Hukam repeatedly stressed in Gurbani. Hukam word doesn’t exist in their dictionary as I read an article on Vashnava.

Hukam is a Punjabi word derived from the Arabic hukm, meaning "command" or "order."

Naturally, the exact word will not appear in Sanskrit or Hindi, but this doesn't mean there is no equivalent concept in translation for "order/command of God for the disciple." Both Sikhism and Vaishnavism were military orders veer ji.

The Kapilas inscription of Narashimhadeva, record that the king was the devotee of God Purushottama Jagannatha identified with Vishnu. He is described as Purushottama Putro and compare him with great Boar (Vaishnu in his Varaha Avatara) incarnation. Further the charter describe that the king succeeded in subduing by the power of his arms the pride of his enemies in numerous battles at the command of the God Purushottam, the Lord of the fourteen worlds. In the Draksharama temple inscriptions, Anangabhima III himself is called both Paramavaishnava and Paramamahesvara as well as Purushottama putra, Rudra-putra and Durga putra.
Vaishnavism in Orissan Inscriptions

 

[Harjas Kaur Khalsa]

ਮਛੁ ਕਛੁ ਕੂਰਮੁ ਆਗਿਆ ਅਉਤਰਾਸੀ ॥
mashh kashh kooram aagiaa aoutharaasee ||
By the Pleasure of His Will, He took incarnation as the great fish and the tortoise.
ਕੇਸਵ ਚਲਤ ਕਰਹਿ ਨਿਰਾਲੇ ਕੀਤਾ ਲੋੜਹਿ ਸੋ ਹੋਇਗਾ ॥੮॥
kaesav chalath karehi niraalae keethaa lorrehi so hoeigaa ||8||
The Lord of beauteous hair, the Worker of miraculous deeds, whatever He wishes, comes saaval sundhar roop banaavehi baen sunath sabh mohaigaa ||9||
He assumed the beautiful form of the blue-skinned Krishna; hearing His flute, all are fascinated and enticed. ||9||
~SGGS Ji p. 1082
All above, Guru ji defines His Sargun form, when He is in His nature, how the names mentioned above can be different from Him. Issue is not that, issue is whom, Sikhs are advised to worship? Guru ji is giving example after example that all you guys are talking about, and giving credit to them, actually He is the one who does so.

This doesn't even make sense, "giving credit to them." It's not like the nirguna is "True" God, and the sarguna is something else. The sarguna is "created saroop" since nirguna has no saroop, but is still Jyot of the One nirguna. Even the Vaishnavs worship Krishna and Raam BECAUSE they are the nirguna manifestated in sansaara. Or how else would the Naam of the avataaras have any potency to be shabad Naam of the Naad, nirguna? Veer ji, when you are japping the Naams of the sargun manifestation as a boat of mukti, this says something about the intricate relationship between sarguna and nirguna of the All-pervading Unborn One. They are the same One being, one in form and one without which subsumes within itself the sarguna. The fact that Sikhs are enjoined to jap the Naams of sargun manifestations, which Gurbani calls incarnations of the nirgun God, with devotion, bhakti is really no difference. Both schools of philosophy acknowledge the sarguna is transient and the nirguna is permanent. Both schools acknowledge the nirguna is the One All-pervaiding Unborn Supreme.

It is a hallmark of Vaishnavism to have belief in the avataars of the nirguna. It is hallmark of Vaishnavism to jap the sargun Naams of God with bhakti to obtain moksha. Please explain where Sikhism is so radically distinct in this regard as to realistically qualify itself as a new religion. I've been waiting to hear the radically new spiritual teachings within Gurbani, and not over-generalizing social differences such as idols, caste and corruption, which equally, to a degree can be seen within Sikhism today. All sects have their differences, while remaining true to the general outline of original source scriptures. The source of the teachings of sargun avataars of One All-pervading nirguna, and Naam jap bhakti and sankirtana, are the Vaishnava Upanishads. To me, it is hair-splitting to judge whether Vaishnavs are "worshipping sarguna" and "Sikhs are worshipping nirguna" despite the fact that both are devotionally japping the same Naams of sarguna, because it implies Sikhs are "spiritual" and Vaishnavs are "corrupted." I feel that is an inaccurate and artificial imposition based on ethnocentric prejudice of preferring Sikhism to Vaishnavism. I really don't believe we can judge people's individual intentions this way. Vaishnavas are "monotheistic" and "Dvaitic," because they worship the nirguna and not the demi-gods. They are "pantheistic" and "Advaitic" because they believe that One is pervading all creation, including the demi-gods and avataaras, and everything is actually only He.

Numerous times we discussed that, Sargun Sroop is not worth worshiping as we do Him as per Gurbani because Gurbani also look at them differently as Ram’s Cries, and krishana’s deception, Shiva’s frustration. Obviously stress is on His infinity, any one see other than that, I swear, has ignored the idea expressed in Guru message in totality. I am not boasting, the more I read SGGS Ji, the more pictures became clear. Pining for the Infinite is advocated. His beyond birth is stressed through out SGGS Ji.

Again, as you acknowledge you don't have knowledge of actual Vaishnav teaching, yet persist in trying to correct it's deficiencies or compare it with Sikhism, I must bring to your attention that Shiva is not an avataara, but a demi-god, and Vaishnava sampradhya disapproves of his worship as nirgun Narayana. So this is another example of where you make careless mistakes in defining what Vaishnavism is. Vaishnavism is NOT about worship of the demi-gods, but worship of the One Unborn who incarnates in His avataaras. It is not the sargun physicality of the avataaras which is worshipped, but the All-pervading One Jyot which is manifesting through them. Please stop distorting what Vaishnavism actually teaches in some pretense of differences between Vaishnav philosophy and Sikhism. :{-

ਜੁਜ ਮਹਿ ਜੋਰਿ ਛਲੀ ਚੰਦ੍ਰਾਵਲਿ ਕਾਨ੍ਹ੍ਹ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨੁ ਜਾਦਮੁ ਭਇਆ ॥
juj mehi jor shhalee chandhraaval kaanh kirasan jaadham bhaeiaa ||
In the Jujar Veda, Kaan Krishna of the Yaadva tribe seduced Chandraavali by force.
~SGGS Ji p. 470​

ਰੋਵੈ ਰਾਮੁ ਨਿਕਾਲਾ ਭਇਆ ॥
rovai raam nikaalaa bhaeiaa ||
Rama wept when he was sent into exile,
~SGGS Ji p. 953​

Does Gurbani say that Raam and Krishna are any less the Supreme Lord God because of these descriptions? No! So why are we making artificial distinctions between the sargun saroop and the nirguna which Gurbani doesn't even make?

ਕ੍ਰਿਸ੍ਨਾ ਤੇ ਜਾਨਊ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਚੰਤੀ ਨਾਚਨਾ ॥੧॥
kirasaa thae jaanoo har har naachanthee naachanaa ||1||
Know that, through Krishna, the Lord, Har, Har, the dance of creation dances. ||1||

ਪਹਿਲ ਪੁਰਸਾਬਿਰਾ ॥
pehil purasaabiraa ||
First of all, there was only the Primal Being.

ਅਥੋਨ ਪੁਰਸਾਦਮਰਾ ॥
athhon purasaadhamaraa ||
From that Primal Being, Maya was produced.

ਅਸਗਾ ਅਸ ਉਸਗਾ ॥
asagaa as ousagaa ||
All that is, is His.
~SGGS Ji p. 693​

There can be no doubt Gurbani recognizes the Unborn and undying nirguna as being Himself incarnate in the Sargun saroop of the das avtaaras. All the rest is just argumentation and refusal to accept it. Hence not only does Gurbani praise the sarguna as being manifestation of the nirguna, it positively clarifies that the sargun saroop of the avataaras are the Lord Himself which the Sikh worships.

ਅਚੁਤ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਪਰਮੇਸੁਰ ਅੰਤਰਜਾਮੀ ॥
achuth paarabreham paramaesur antharajaamee ||
The Supreme Lord God is imperishable, the Transcendent Lord, the Inner-knower, the Searcher of hearts.

ਮਧੁਸੂਦਨ ਦਾਮੋਦਰ ਸੁਆਮੀ ॥
madhhusoodhan dhaamodhar suaamee ||
He is the Slayer of demons, our Supreme Lord and Master.

ਰਿਖੀਕੇਸ ਗੋਵਰਧਨ ਧਾਰੀ ਮੁਰਲੀ ਮਨੋਹਰ ਹਰਿ ਰੰਗਾ ॥੧॥
rikheekaes govaradhhan dhhaaree muralee manohar har rangaa ||1||
The Supreme Rishi, the Master of the sensory organs, the uplifter of mountains, the joyful Lord playing His enticing flute. ||1||

ਮੋਹਨ ਮਾਧਵ ਕ੍ਰਿਸ੍ਨ ਮੁਰਾਰੇ ॥
mohan maadhhav kirasa muraarae ||
The Enticer of Hearts, the Lord of wealth, Krishna, the Enemy of ego.

ਜਗਦੀਸੁਰ ਹਰਿ ਜੀਉ ਅਸੁਰ ਸੰਘਾਰੇ ॥
jagadheesur har jeeo asur sanghaarae ||
The Lord of the Universe, the Dear Lord, the Destroyer of demons.

ਜਗਜੀਵਨ ਅਬਿਨਾਸੀ ਠਾਕੁਰ ਘਟ ਘਟ ਵਾਸੀ ਹੈ ਸੰਗਾ ॥੨॥
jagajeevan abinaasee thaakur ghatt ghatt vaasee hai sangaa ||2||
The Life of the World, our eternal and ever-stable Lord and Master dwells within each and every heart, and is always with us. ||2||

ਧਰਣੀਧਰ ਈਸ ਨਰਸਿੰਘ ਨਾਰਾਇਣ ॥
dhharaneedhhar ees narasingh naaraaein ||
The Support of the Earth, the man-lion, the Supreme Lord God.

ਦਾੜਾ ਅਗ੍ਰੇ ਪ੍ਰਿਥਮਿ ਧਰਾਇਣ ॥
dhaarraa agrae prithham dhharaaein ||
The Protector who tears apart demons with His teeth, the Upholder of the earth.

ਬਾਵਨ ਰੂਪੁ ਕੀਆ ਤੁਧੁ ਕਰਤੇ ਸਭ ਹੀ ਸੇਤੀ ਹੈ ਚੰਗਾ ॥੩॥
baavan roop keeaa thudhh karathae sabh hee saethee hai changaa ||3||
O Creator, You assumed the form of the pygmy to humble the demons; You are the Lord God of all. ||3||

ਸ੍ਰੀ ਰਾਮਚੰਦ ਜਿਸੁ ਰੂਪੁ ਨ ਰੇਖਿਆ ॥
sree raamachandh jis roop n raekhiaa ||
You are the Great Raam Chand, who has no form or feature.

ਬਨਵਾਲੀ ਚਕ੍ਰਪਾਣਿ ਦਰਸਿ ਅਨੂਪਿਆ ॥
banavaalee chakrapaan dharas anoopiaa ||
Adorned with flowers, holding the chakra in Your hand, Your form is incomparably beautiful.

ਸਹਸ ਨੇਤ੍ਰ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਹੈ ਸਹਸਾ ਇਕੁ ਦਾਤਾ ਸਭ ਹੈ ਮੰਗਾ ॥੪॥
sehas naethr moorath hai sehasaa eik dhaathaa sabh hai mangaa ||4||
You have thousands of eyes, and thousands of forms. You alone are the Giver, and all are beggars of You. ||4||

ਭਗਤਿ ਵਛਲੁ ਅਨਾਥਹ ਨਾਥੇ ॥
bhagath vashhal anaathheh naathhae ||
You are the Lover of Your devotees, the Master of the masterless.

ਗੋਪੀ ਨਾਥੁ ਸਗਲ ਹੈ ਸਾਥੇ ॥
gopee naathh sagal hai saathhae ||
The Lord and Master of the milk-maids, You are the companion of all.

ਬਾਸੁਦੇਵ ਨਿਰੰਜਨ ਦਾਤੇ ਬਰਨਿ ਨ ਸਾਕਉ ਗੁਣ ਅੰਗਾ ॥੫॥
baasudhaev niranjan dhaathae baran n saako gun angaa ||5||
O Lord, Immacuate Great Giver, I cannot describe even an iota of Your Glorious Virtues. ||5||

ਮੁਕੰਦ ਮਨੋਹਰ ਲਖਮੀ ਨਾਰਾਇਣ ॥
mukandh manohar lakhamee naaraaein ||
Liberator, Enticing Lord, Lord of Lakshmi, Supreme Lord God.

ਦ੍ਰੋਪਤੀ ਲਜਾ ਨਿਵਾਰਿ ਉਧਾਰਣ ॥
dhropathee lajaa nivaar oudhhaaran ||
Savior of Dropadi's honor.

ਕਮਲਾਕੰਤ ਕਰਹਿ ਕੰਤੂਹਲ ਅਨਦ ਬਿਨੋਦੀ ਨਿਹਸੰਗਾ ॥੬॥
kamalaakanth karehi kanthoohal anadh binodhee nihasangaa ||6||
Lord of Maya, miracle-worker, absorbed in delightful play, unattached. ||6||

ਅਮੋਘ ਦਰਸਨ ਆਜੂਨੀ ਸੰਭਉ ॥
amogh dharasan aajoonee sanbho ||
The Blessed Vision of His Darshan is fruitful and rewarding; He is not born, He is self-existent.

ਅਕਾਲ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਜਿਸੁ ਕਦੇ ਨਾਹੀ ਖਉ ॥
akaal moorath jis kadhae naahee kho ||
His form is undying; it is never destroyed.

ਅਬਿਨਾਸੀ ਅਬਿਗਤ ਅਗੋਚਰ ਸਭੁ ਕਿਛੁ ਤੁਝ ਹੀ ਹੈ ਲਗਾ ॥੭॥
abinaasee abigath agochar sabh kishh thujh hee hai lagaa ||7||
O imperishable, eternal, unfathomable Lord, everything is attached to You. ||7||

ਸ੍ਰੀਰੰਗ ਬੈਕੁੰਠ ਕੇ ਵਾਸੀ ॥
sreerang baikunth kae vaasee ||
The Lover of greatness, who dwells in heaven.

ਮਛੁ ਕਛੁ ਕੂਰਮੁ ਆਗਿਆ ਅਉਤਰਾਸੀ ॥
mashh kashh kooram aagiaa aoutharaasee ||
By the Pleasure of His Will, He took incarnation as the great fish and the tortoise.

ਕੇਸਵ ਚਲਤ ਕਰਹਿ ਨਿਰਾਲੇ ਕੀਤਾ ਲੋੜਹਿ ਸੋ ਹੋਇਗਾ ॥੮॥
kaesav chalath karehi niraalae keethaa lorrehi so hoeigaa ||8||
The Lord of beauteous hair, the Worker of miraculous deeds, whatever He wishes, comes to pass. ||8||

ਨਿਰਾਹਾਰੀ ਨਿਰਵੈਰੁ ਸਮਾਇਆ ॥
niraahaaree niravair samaaeiaa ||
He is beyond need of any sustenance, free of hate and all-pervading.

ਧਾਰਿ ਖੇਲੁ ਚਤੁਰਭੁਜੁ ਕਹਾਇਆ ॥
dhhaar khael chathurabhuj kehaaeiaa ||
He has staged His play; He is called the four-armed Lord.

ਸਾਵਲ ਸੁੰਦਰ ਰੂਪ ਬਣਾਵਹਿ ਬੇਣੁ ਸੁਨਤ ਸਭ ਮੋਹੈਗਾ ॥੯॥
saaval sundhar roop banaavehi baen sunath sabh mohaigaa ||9||
He assumed the beautiful form of the blue-skinned Krishna; hearing His flute, all are fascinated and enticed. ||9||

ਬਨਮਾਲਾ ਬਿਭੂਖਨ ਕਮਲ ਨੈਨ ॥
banamaalaa bibhookhan kamal nain ||
He is adorned with garlands of flowers, with lotus eyes.

ਸੁੰਦਰ ਕੁੰਡਲ ਮੁਕਟ ਬੈਨ ॥
sundhar kunddal mukatt bain ||
His ear-rings, crown and flute are so beautiful.

ਸੰਖ ਚਕ੍ਰ ਗਦਾ ਹੈ ਧਾਰੀ ਮਹਾ ਸਾਰਥੀ ਸਤਸੰਗਾ ॥੧੦॥
sankh chakr gadhaa hai dhhaaree mehaa saarathhee sathasangaa ||10||
He carries the conch, the chakra and the war club; He is the Great Charioteer, who stays with His Saints. ||10||

ਪੀਤ ਪੀਤੰਬਰ ਤ੍ਰਿਭਵਣ ਧਣੀ ॥
peeth peethanbar thribhavan dhhanee ||
The Lord of yellow robes, the Master of the three worlds.

ਜਗੰਨਾਥੁ ਗੋਪਾਲੁ ਮੁਖਿ ਭਣੀ ॥
jagannaathh gopaal mukh bhanee ||
The Lord of the Universe, the Lord of the world; with my mouth, I chant His Name.
~SGGS Ji p. 1082​

~Bhul chak maaf

 

[Harjas Kaur Khalsa]

We see from Gurbani that the avataaras are a manifestation of the all-pervading Lord, nirguna. And that they took incarnation according to His will, hukam. So how can we say the avataaras don't keep the Hukam of God's command? When Gurbani is saying the Lord Himself took incarnation?
If for a second I agree with you, how you will define the following, you read it but don’t remember it

ਏਕਮ ਏਕੰਕਾਰੁ ਨਿਰਾਲਾ ॥ ਅਮਰੁਅਜੋਨੀਜਾਤਿਨਜਾਲਾ॥ਅਗਮਅਗੋਚਰੁਰੂਪੁਨਰੇਖਿਆ ॥ ਖੋਜਤ ਖੋਜਤ ਘਟਿ ਘਟਿ ਦੇਖਿਆ ॥ ਜੋ ਦੇਖਿ ਦਿਖਾਵੈ ਤਿਸ ਕਉ ਬਲਿ ਜਾਈ ॥ ਗੁਰ ਪਰਸਾਦਿ ਪਰਮ ਪਦੁ ਪਾਈ ॥੧॥
The first (Lunar day): The Unique Lord is Peerless, Immortal,Unborn, and without caste and involvement. He is Unapproachable and Unapprehensible and has no form or outline. Searching and searching, I have seen Him in all the hearts. Devoted am I unto him, who sees and makes others see the Lord. By Guru's grace I have obtained the Supreme status.

How come Bhain ji Guru ji denies His being coming in to bodies,

Because Gurbani doesn't say the nirguna doesn't come into bodies, that's just your interpretation because you can't accept that nirguna means formless, and sarguna means form, and both are aspects of the One Ajooni. Gurbani says repeatedly in many places the nirguna pervades within His creation, is His creation and incarnates as His creation. And that ultimately, everything, including the creation, is only Him, the Unborn, Undying Timeless Lord.

ਨਿਰਗੁਣੁ ਸਰਗੁਣੁ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਮੇਰਾ ਕੋਈ ਹੈ ਜੀਉ ਆਣਿ ਮਿਲਾਵੈ ਜੀਉ ॥੧॥
niragun saragun har har maeraa koee hai jeeo aan milaavai jeeo ||1||
My Lord, Har, Har, is both absolute and related, unmanifest and manifest; is there anyone who can come and unite me with Him? ||1||
~SGGS Ji p. 98​

ਬਾਵਨ ਰੂਪੁ ਕੀਆ ਤੁਧੁ ਕਰਤੇ ਸਭ ਹੀ ਸੇਤੀ ਹੈ ਚੰਗਾ ॥੩॥
baavan roop keeaa thudhh karathae sabh hee saethee hai changaa ||3||
O Creator, You assumed the form of the pygmy to humble the demons; You are the Lord God of all. ||3||

ਸ੍ਰੀ ਰਾਮਚੰਦ ਜਿਸੁ ਰੂਪੁ ਨ ਰੇਖਿਆ ॥
sree raamachandh jis roop n raekhiaa ||
You are the Great Raam Chand, who has no form or feature.

ਬਨਵਾਲੀ ਚਕ੍ਰਪਾਣਿ ਦਰਸਿ ਅਨੂਪਿਆ ॥
banavaalee chakrapaan dharas anoopiaa ||
Adorned with flowers, holding the chakra in Your hand, Your form is incomparably beautiful.
~SGGS Ji p. 1082​

ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਬਿਸਨੁ ਮਹੇਸ ਇਕ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਆਪੇ ਕਰਤਾ ਕਾਰੀ ॥੧੨॥
brehamaa bisan mehaes eik moorath aapae karathaa kaaree ||12||
Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva are manifestations of the One God. He Himself is the Doer of deeds. ||12||
~SGGS Ji p. 908​

ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਚਾਨਣੁ ਜਾਣੀਐ ਮਨਮੁਖਿ ਮੁਗਧੁ ਗੁਬਾਰੁ ॥
guramukh chaanan jaaneeai manamukh mugadhh gubaar ||
The Gurmukh knows the Divine Light, while the foolish self-willed manmukh gropes around in the darkness.

ਘਟਿ ਘਟਿ ਜੋਤਿ ਨਿਰੰਤਰੀ ਬੂਝੈ ਗੁਰਮਤਿ ਸਾਰੁ ॥੪॥
ghatt ghatt joth nirantharee boojhai guramath saar ||4||
One who sees that Light within each and every heart understands the Essence of the Guru's Teachings. ||4||

ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਜਿਨੀ ਜਾਣਿਆ ਤਿਨ ਕੀਚੈ ਸਾਬਾਸਿ ॥
guramukh jinee jaaniaa thin keechai saabaas ||
Those who understand are Gurmukh; recognize and applaud them.

ਸਚੇ ਸੇਤੀ ਰਲਿ ਮਿਲੇ ਸਚੇ ਗੁਣ ਪਰਗਾਸਿ ॥
sachae saethee ral milae sachae gun paragaas ||
They meet and merge with the True One. They become the Radiant Manifestation of the Excellence of the True One.
~SGGS Ji p. 20​

 

[pk70]

Ek Om Kar. One Trimurthi Creator. The One All-pervading nirguna creates the sarguna, Trimurthi (Three gods Vishnu, Brahma, Mahesh), which includes the nasal bindu expressing this was out of the unstruck sound current of the Nada, and out of the three gunas of the Trimurthi, created the whole of sansaara. The Vedic definitions of Ekakshara or Omkara include that the All-pervading Primary One Parabrahm subsumes the Trimurthi and all creation within His body. So I fail to grasp what is overlooked in the Vedic definition. It is after all, a definition of the totality of the One (Eko Brahman) All-Pervading
That is not found in Guru Granth Sahib ji, it is being forced on Sikhs by saying it Ek omkar, why I am saying? Answer is found in SGGS as it was pronounced by Guru himself
ਏਕਮ ਏਕੰਕਾਰੁ ਨਿਰਾਲਾ
Ekm ekankaar not Ek Om Kar, but Guru ji is clear on this. Dr Sahib Singh ji goes in detail to define it and it doesn’t say what you say by calling it OM Kaar and Tri Murti Creator
Its pronunciation is Ikk oankaar, not om kaar
It has three parts, 1= one, oan and Kaar
It is a word of Sanskrit, in amar kosh it has three meanings
1. In Ved or other religious books it was written as pious gesture
2. To answer an Order or question in YES but with respect
3 Braham
What meaning is suitable here when ONE is suffixed with it? Answer is number 3= Braham( not Brahama conceptual entity but The Lord, Creator of Universe). The next one is Kaar, when it comes as suffix; its meaning becomes “continuous which cannot be changed”. So when it comes with Braham, it means that Braham who is self existent without any change. Guru ji uses prefix a number with letter, where is this number in any other place? This number stands for counting. Ek can be used in different way, like, Ram and krishan were Ek, but you cannot use as “ Ram and Krishan 1, to convey that meaning, if Eka is used in Gurbani, it is defined again. So use of one number with Braham, Guru ji is not talking about Timurti Creator as you have said above. In Mool Mantra there is no mention of that Trimurthi concept of of Sanatna or Vashnava It shows that all Guru ji wrote is being dragged back to either Sanatanism or Vashinavism. Every Hindu name is used in Gurbani is dragged back to Hinduism without understanding dominating ideas promoted through out SGGS. After all Gurus were in Hindu society, language and culture was same, how it was possible to say any thing without usage of words of that society. It is laughable when Bhain ji you say Sikhs are bent upon supporting Sikhism as separate from Hinduism, when you yourself totally bent upon converting Sikhism into Vashnava or Sanatan dharm just on the bais of some few similarities. I just don’t get why it is so.. Bhai Gurdas openly says that Guru Nanak converted four castes into one, do you believe him, no? When you want to convey your views through him, you quote him as an authentic and respectful. Why this double standard Bhain ji? No wonder some one on this post call it a nonsense debate, obviously it has become when facts are openly ignored I know we have disagreements on these issues but where ever I see a positive point, I support you. So I am not here just appose you but I wonder how main facts you ignore?

 

[Harjas Kaur Khalsa]

Who assumed the form of Krishna? According to Gurbani, it is the Lord of the universe whose name we chant.
Bhain ji if you see here only Krishna in above Guru Vaak but not Him as a whole sargun form, read the following, Guru ji says, He is fish, fisherman, net and bait. Should we consider by the same token fish also a guiding light because Guru said He is in her too. Tragedy is this, Gurbani is not understood in totality.

Errr, tragedy is the fish referred to as Das Avtaara is sarguna. The fish, fisherman, net and bait in general, would relate to Advaitist teaching of the One All-pervading hidden in all forms. But the fish described in Das Avtaara is very specific, and not just any fish.

Om Sri Matsya Avataraya Namaha ~ Divine Fish Avatar

THE FIRST SIX INCARNATIONS OF VISHNU/ DARWIN'S THEORY OF EVOLUTION
Matsya (Fish) Life starts in water (600 million-400 million years ago)
Kurma (Turtle) The first amphibians emerge (100 million years ago)
Varaha (Boar) The first mammals evolve (60 million years ago)
Narasimha (half man-half lion) Half man-half animal appear (30 million years ago)
Vamana (short man) Homo Erectus, Upright, yet short and weaponless (5 million - 2 million years ago)
Parashurama (parashu=axe, Rama=name of God)Bronze age; the coming of Ramapithecus; development of first weapons such as axe. Homo Sapiens (350,000-100,000 years ago)
Children's Corner - Stories - Ten Avatars of Vishnu - Dashaavatara

The Story of MATSYA Avatar

In MATSYA Avatar, Lord Vishnu incarnates himself as a fish in this world. In the earliest yuga (era) of Sata-yuga, a king named Manu was performing severe penance for thousands of years. One day as he was performing ablutions with river water, a small fish came into his hands and just as he was about to throw the fish back into the river, the fish requested the king to save its life. Heeding its request, the king put the fish into a jar of water but the fish started growing and the jar was not big enough for it. Then the king threw it into the river, but it soon it outgrew the river and the king then threw it into Ganges and then into the ocean.

The king realized that it was Lord Vishnu himself and then the lord made an appearance and made a special request to the king. It predicted that the world would come to an end by a huge flood in seven days and requested the king to build a huge boat and take the seven sages(hermits), seeds of all plants, one animal of each type and told him that he would appear as a fish to propel the boat to Mt Himavan for surviving the flood to the next yuga(eon). True to his word, after seven days the Lord appeared and the king tied the boat to the fish by using the royal serpent Vasuki and the fish took all of them to Mt Himavan and kept them there till the flood was over and in the new era, the king started procreation for the new era. Children's Corner - Stories - Ten Avatars of Vishnu - Dashaavatara

 

[pk70]

Hukam is a Punjabi word derived from the Arabic hukm, meaning "command" or "order."

Naturally, the exact word will not appear in Sanskrit or Hindi, but this doesn't mean there is no equivalent concept in translation for "order/command of God for the disciple." Both Sikhism and Vaishnavism were military orders veer ji.
Well Bhain ji this the proof of your views, does it make any sense
Bhain ji, why they lack such dominating idea which is expressed and stressed through out Guru Granth Sahib? It doesn’t matter if its originated from Punjabi, Urdu, Arabic. Point is this, you follow Guru, right from the beginning, His Hukam is explained, if it is so Vital, why it has become hard for Vashnavas to come up with it? I am not looking for a word, but concept of Hukam.They don’t have because pro Vashnavas forget that eminent scholars who are biased towards Sikhism accept originality of Guru Nanak, only it is you, a follower of Guru Nanak trying to convert him into Vashnvas. Why Guru Nanak used this word as vital factor? While talking about the Formless, if a few similarities (may be 75%), are there, why hundred percent of Vasshnva is seen in Sikhism by you? You boastingly ask” What is new?” I answer is concept of Hukam as dominating idea is new. Talking about hurtful feelings, comparing similarities is other thing but converting a founder of a faith into old sect is very hurtful for those who adore Guru Nanak for liberating from storms of trading in religion. Whatever Vashnava did at their own, they are still known as Hindus because they failed to walk up to Shri Lanka, Macca Madina. Guru Nanak did
The last quote you gave what is this? What it has to do with my questions and post. What validity it has? How content of this proves any thing, to me, it is another mythical story to impress people nothing more than. May be very useful for you but not for me if you are posting for others, that is fine, I shall rather read H.G Wells.

 

[pk70]

This doesn't even make sense, "giving credit to them." It's not like the nirguna is "True" God, and the sarguna is something else. The sarguna is "created saroop" since nirguna has no saroop, but is still Jyot of the One nirguna. Even the Vaishnavs worship Krishna and Raam BECAUSE they are the nirguna manifestated in sansaara. Or how else would the Naam of the avataaras have any potency to be shabad Naam of the Naad, nirguna? Veer ji, when you are japping the Naams of the sargun manifestation as a boat of mukti, this says something about the intricate relationship between sarguna and nirguna of the All-pervading Unborn One. They are the same One being, one in form and one without which subsumes within itself the sarguna. The fact that Sikhs are enjoined to jap the Naams of sargun manifestations, which Gurbani calls incarnations of the nirgun God, with devotion, bhakti is really no difference. Both schools of philosophy acknowledge the sarguna is transient and the nirguna is permanent. Both schools acknowledge the nirguna is the One All-pervaiding Unborn Supreme.
Sikhs are no where taught by Guru ji to worship Rama or Krishna because they were part of Sarguna. Why it is so. Attributes of God are being turned by you as real worth worshiping when those are questioned in Gurbani and proven inflicted with Maya. BHain ji, that was the mist Guru ji cleared for us, that was the chain Guru ji cut for us.

It is a hallmark of Vaishnavism to have belief in the avataars of the nirguna. It is hallmark of Vaishnavism to jap the sargun Naams of God with bhakti to obtain moksha. Please explain where Sikhism is so radically distinct in this regard as to realistically qualify itself as a new religion. I've been waiting to hear the radically new spiritual teachings within Gurbani, and not over-generalizing social differences such as idols, caste and corruption, which equally, to a degree can be seen within Sikhism today. All sects have their differences, while remaining true to the general outline of original source scriptures. The source of the teachings of sargun avataars of One All-pervading nirguna, and Naam jap bhakti and sankirtana, are the Vaishnava Upanishads. To me, it is hair-splitting to judge whether Vaishnavs are "worshipping sarguna" and "Sikhs are worshipping nirguna" despite the fact that both are devotionally japping the same Naams of sarguna, because it implies Sikhs are "spiritual" and Vaishnavs are "corrupted." I feel that is an inaccurate and artificial imposition based on ethnocentric prejudice of preferring Sikhism to Vaishnavism. I really don't believe we can judge people's individual intentions this way. Vaishnavas are "monotheistic" and "Dvaitic," because they worship the nirguna and not the demi-gods. They are "pantheistic" and "Advaitic" because they believe that One is pervading all creation, including the demi-gods and avataaras, and everything is actually only He.
When I see Rama beheading poor low class, when I see Krishna acting deceptive way, I do not think that Sargun srop of Rama and Krishna and Rawana of Shri Lanka are any different in context of humanity. Vashnva worship them, we don’t, that is another basic different as Gurbani doesn’t guide us to do that” kishan bishan kabhi n dhiaaon”

 

[pk70]

Again, as you acknowledge you don't have knowledge of actual Vaishnav teaching, yet persist in trying to correct it's deficiencies or compare it with Sikhism, I must bring to your attention that Shiva is not an avataara, but a demi-god, and Vaishnava sampradhya
isapproves of his worship as nirgun Narayana. So this is another example of where you make careless mistakes in defining what Vaishnavism is. Vaishnavism is NOT about worship of the demi-gods, but worship of the One Unborn who incarnates in His avataaras. It is not the sargun physicality of the avataaras which is worshipped, but the All-pervading One Jyot which is manifesting through them. Please stop distorting what Vaishnavism actually teaches in some pretense of differences between Vaishnav
philosophy and Sikhism.
Let me tell you bhain ji, I do not care if there were gods, demi gods avtara whatever. I am not interested in those guys. Talking of distortion, you have been doing it for while now you are telling me that I am distorting their views. So you felt the pain, I felt it more than you do. Numerous times I told you that without any full study of Guru Granth Sahib ji, no one has the right to call Guru Nanak Vashnava, but you did. Thread was closed, not because of discussion but because you showed no respect towards Sikhism’s originality save for smelling either Hinduism or Vashnava. All the Gurbani quote doesn’t support your views. I can bet on that. Look at how you understand it
Look at your comments
Errr, tragedy is the fish referred to as Das Avtaara is sarguna. The fish, fisherman, net and bait in general, would relate to Advaitist teaching of the One All-pervading hidden in all forms. But the fish described in Das Avtaara is very specific, and not just any fish.
In that Guru Shabad Bhain jio, there is not only fish which is called Sargun Waheguru but THE NET.THE BAIT. IT is funny how you drag every thing to those guys.

 

[pk70]

ਜੁਜ ਮਹਿ ਜੋਰਿ ਛਲੀ ਚੰਦ੍ਰਾਵਲਿ ਕਾਨ੍ਹ੍ਹ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨੁ ਜਾਦਮੁ ਭਇਆ ॥
juj mehi jor shhalee chandhraaval kaanh kirasan jaadham bhaeiaa ||
In the Jujar Veda, Kaan Krishna of the Yaadva tribe seduced Chandraavali by force.
~SGGS Ji p. 470
ਰੋਵੈ ਰਾਮੁ ਨਿਕਾਲਾ ਭਇਆ ॥
rovai raam nikaalaa bhaeiaa ||
Rama wept when he was sent into exile,
~SGGS Ji p. 953

Does Gurbani say that Raam and Krishna are any less the Supreme Lord God because of these descriptions? No!
Oh YES Bhain Ji, what you expect more than that where ever it says the guy was deceptive. Once so called God does deceptive action, what is the difference between him and others who do same actions under Maya Influence? Why Guru ji would write a decree on them? Hint is given, it is enough for a wise person.
So why are we making artificial distinctions between the sargun saroop and the nirguna which Gurbani doesn't even make?
It is you Bhain ji because you see His sargun Sroop only in Rama and Krishna, Vishnu, poor intoxicated Shiva and all those hard to remember because there are loads of them. In fact His Sargun Sroop is every thing we see” eh Wis sansaar jo tum dekhte eh Harr ka roop hai( All the world you see, it is His form M-3) So He is grass in Sun in trees, He is in whatever you see. His Sargun is not limited to Rama and Krishna. Those guys have not that spiritual highness; to me Lord Christ is way higher than them. People look at actions of others to respect; obviously their actions are not of high spiritual beings,
ecause Gurbani doesn't say the nirguna doesn't come into bodies, that's just your interpretation because you can't accept that nirguna means formless, and sarguna means form, and both are aspects of the One Ajooni. Gurbani says repeatedly in many places the nirguna pervades within His creation, is His creation and incarnates as His creation. And that ultimately, everything, including the creation, is only Him, the Unborn, Undying Timeless Lord.
When Guru ji calls HIM Ajooni in all over Guru Granth Sahib Ji, why any person would agree with this wrong notion" HE incarnates" His presence with in is not incarnation, like I said before.

ਨਿਰਗੁਣੁ ਸਰਗੁਣੁ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਮੇਰਾ ਕੋਈ ਹੈ ਜੀਉ ਆਣਿ ਮਿਲਾਵੈ ਜੀਉ ॥੧॥
niragun saragun har har maeraa koee hai jeeo aan milaavai jeeo ||1||
My Lord, Har, Har, is both absolute and related, unmanifest and manifest; is there anyone who can come and unite me with Him? ||1||
~SGGS Ji p. 98
His Sargun srop are also flowers, those killers, those Hindus and Muslims who tried to make hell for Guru ji because revolution was too hard for them to swallow. Why His Sargun srop ends at Rama and Krishna in your views Bhain ji?

 

[Harjas Kaur Khalsa]

Ek Om Kar. One Trimurthi Creator. The One All-pervading nirguna creates the sarguna, Trimurthi (Three gods Vishnu, Brahma, Mahesh), which includes the nasal bindu expressing this was out of the unstruck sound current of the Nada, and out of the three gunas of the Trimurthi, created the whole of sansaara. The Vedic definitions of Ekakshara or Omkara include that the All-pervading Primary One Parabrahm subsumes the Trimurthi and all creation within His body. So I fail to grasp what is overlooked in the Vedic definition. It is after all, a definition of the totality of the One (Eko Brahman) All-Pervading
That is not found in Guru Granth Sahib ji, it is being forced on Sikhs by saying it Ek omkar, why I am saying? Answer is found in SGGS as it was pronounced by Guru himself
ਏਕਮ ਏਕੰਕਾਰੁ ਨਿਰਾਲਾ
Ekm ekankaar not Ek Om Kar, but Guru ji is clear on this. Dr Sahib Singh ji goes in detail to define it and it doesn’t say what you say by calling it OM Kaar and Tri Murti Creator

"He is the one, the one alone, in Him. All deities become One alone." ~Artharva Veda

"Having evolved himself from the soul of the world, once separated from the first cause, he evaporates with, and emanates all nature out of himself. He does not stand above it, but is mixed up with it; Brahma and the universe form one Being, each particle of which is in its essence Brahma himself, who proceeded out of himself." ~Vishnu Purana

No one is forcing anything on Sikhs. Admittedly it is a point of dispute per Singh Sabhist reformers who attempted to remove all Hindu references from Gurbani. Ongkar is merely pronunciation difference from Omkar. The proof is in descriptions of Trimurthi and three gunas in relationship to the Parabrahm and creation of the world describing the Puranic definition of Omkar found in Gurbani itself.

"Sarvam Omkara eva: Everything is Om, indeed. This is how the Upanishad begins."

If the Ong refers to what you say:

1. In Ved or other religious books it was written as pious gesture
2. To answer an Order or question in YES but with respect
3 Braham

Then it means: One Brahm-God Creator. However, Omkara, as well as Ongkara also means Parabrahman.

This is written as ‘Om (ॐ)’ and is considered as the sacred vowel. Not only is Omkar a mahamantra with a single letter but is also labelled as the monosyllabic Brahman in the Shrimadbhagvadgita. The sage of this mantra is Parabrahman, the deity Parmatma and the rhythm (chanda) Gayatri. The mahamantras from the Vedas, Upanishads, etc. and also the efficacious (siddha) mantras and Names denoting The Lord are the varied forms of this Omkar. When chanting every mantra it is essential to start it with Omkar.

‘The scriptures describe the pranav, that is, Om as the “monarch of mantras”. It is considered as the symbol or representation of the individual soul. Omkar is the main Name of The Supreme Brahman (Parabrahman). Since acquisition of knowledge about it means realisation of Parabrahman, worshipping it is the same as worshipping The Supreme God. The famous quote from the Upanishads ‘अयमात्*मा ब्रह्म’ means ‘This soul is Brahman’. Once one realises through meditation that the entire universe is composed of Omkar and develops conviction that every object in the universe and every individual soul itself is Brahman, the realisation of Brahman as the soul, is achieved and finally one attains Self-realisation of the unmanifest (nirgun) Brahman in the form of “I am Brahman (अहं ब्रह्मास्*मि)”. Why is Omkar called as pranav mantra? | Namsankirtanyoga

And if it means: One Trimurthi Creator, then the Gurbani makes perfect sense which in numerous places equates first the Primal void, then the Trimurthi, then the world of the three gunas. Surely if it meant, One Brahma God Creator, Vishnu wouldn't be primary over Brahma, and the Trimurthi wouldn't be constantly appearing in Gurbani in context of the created sansaara. So it is evident that the doctrine of One Brahm-God Creator is imposed politically to deny the Primacy of the Trimurthi, despite so much evidence in the Gurbani which teaches Ek Omkara, One Primal, Trimurthi-world of three gunas-Creator. Along with that all important nasal bindu on the Vedic Om/Oang which is necessary to explain what the Nada is in relationship to creation. Without the sound current of the Naad emanating from the unstruck Om, where would Naad come from as a concept in Gurbani?

Every kind of trinity is represented by OM such as Brahma-Vishnu-Shiva, Saraswati-Lakshmi-Durga, Past-Present-Future, Birth-Life-Death, Creation-Preservation-Destruction, Waking-Dreaming-Deep Sleep, Rajas-Satva-Tamas, Body-Mind-Soul. http://www.vydic.org/pages/om.htm

ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਬਿਸਨੁ ਮਹੇਸ ਇਕ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਆਪੇ ਕਰਤਾ ਕਾਰੀ ॥੧੨॥
brehamaa bisan mehaes eik moorath aapae karathaa kaaree ||12||
Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva are manifestations of the One God. He Himself is the Doer of deeds. ||12||
~SGGS Ji p. 908​

ਸੁੰਨਹੁ ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਬਿਸਨੁ ਮਹੇਸੁ ਉਪਾਏ ॥
sunnahu brehamaa bisan mehaes oupaaeae ||
From this Primal Void, Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva issued forth.
~SGGS Ji p. 1037​

ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਬਿਸਨੁ ਮਹੇਸੁ ਤ੍ਰੈ ਗੁਣ ਬਿਸਥਾਰਿਆ ॥
brehamaa bisan mehaes thrai gun bisathhaariaa ||
You created Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva, and the expanse of the three qualities.

ਨਵ ਖੰਡ ਪ੍ਰਿਥਮੀ ਸਾਜਿ ਹਰਿ ਰੰਗ ਸਵਾਰਿਆ ॥
nav khandd prithhamee saaj har rang savaariaa ||
Creating the world of the nine regions, O Lord, You have embellished it with beauty.
~SGGS Ji p. 1094​

ਤ੍ਰੈ ਗੁਣ ਕੀਆ ਪਸਾਰਾ ॥
thrai gun keeaa pasaaraa ||
He formed the expanse of the entire universe from the three gunas, the three qualities.
~SGGS Ji p. 1003​

The first chapter of Mandukya Upanishad discusses Turiya by means of the Vedic symbol AUM. The restless mind cannot think of the transcendental Reality without the help of a concrete symbol. Thinking is possible only through symbols. The student is asked to imagine four parts in Brahman, or Cosmic Reality. They are called four quarters. The first three- gross, subtle and causal- constitute the phenomenal world. The fourth, so called only in relation to the three just mentioned, is transcendental, being beyond time, space and causality. It is Turiya, or the unconditioned Brahman. Mandukya Upanishad

The three gunas of the created sansaara relate to the Trimurthi which is caught in duality and Maya. By transcending above the world of three gunas to the fourth state of consciousness, representing the nirgun Parabrahm, the jiv is liberated.

Hence by every doctrinal teaching within Gurbani, Ongkara means exactly the same as Omkara.

ਤ੍ਰੈ ਗੁਣ ਮਾਇਆ ਮੋਹੁ ਹੈ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਚਉਥਾ ਪਦੁ ਪਾਇ ॥
thrai gun maaeiaa mohu hai guramukh chouthhaa padh paae ||
The three qualities hold people in attachment to Maya. The Gurmukh attains the fourth state of higher consciousness.
~SGGS Ji p.30​

"He is the Lord of all. He is the knower of all. He is the inner controller. He is the source of all; for from Him all beings originate and in Him they finally disappear." ~Mandukya Upanishad

The traditional Hindu explanation of the name Vishnu involves the root viś, meaning "to settle, to enter", or also (in the Rigveda) "to pervade", and a suffix nu, translating to approximately "the All-Pervading One". For example Adi Sankara, in Swami Tapasyananda's translation of his commentary on Vishnu Sahasranama (Ramakrishna Math publications) states derivation from this root, with a meaning "presence everywhere" ("As He pervades everything, vevesti, He is called Visnu"). Adi Sankara states (regarding Vishnu Purana, 3.1.45): "The Power of the Supreme Being has entered within the universe. The root Viś means 'enter into...'"

Vishnu takes form as an all-inclusive deity, known as Purusha or Mahāpurusha, Paramātma [Supreme Soul], Antaryāmi [In-dweller], and He is the Sheshin [Totality] in whom all souls are contained. He is Bhagavat or Bhagavan, which in Sanskrit means "possessing bhāga (Divine Glory)". Vishnu

 

[Harjas Kaur Khalsa]

Bhai Gurdas openly says that Guru Nanak converted four castes into one, do you believe him, no? When you want to convey your views through him, you quote him as an authentic and respectful. Why this double standard Bhain ji? No wonder some one on this post call it a nonsense debate, obviously it has become when facts are openly ignored I know we have disagreements on these issues but where ever I see a positive point, I support you. So I am not here just appose you but I wonder how main facts you ignore?

ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਪੂਰਨ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਕਲਿਜੁਗਿ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਇਕੁ ਦਿਖਾਇਆ ।
paarabrahamu pooran brahamu kalijugi andari iku dikhaaiaa|
He preached in this darkage (kaliyug) that, saragun (Brahm) and nirgun (Parbrahm) are the same and identical.

ਚਾਰੇ ਪੈਰ ਧਰਮ ਦੇ ਚਾਰਿ ਵਰਨਿ ਇਕੁ ਵਰਨੁ ਕਰਾਇਆ ।
chaaray pair dharam day chaari varani iku varanu karaaiaa|
Dharma was now established on its four feet and all the four castes (through fraternal feeling) were converted into one caste (of humanity).
~Vaar 1 Pauri 23 of Vaaran Bhai Gurdas Ji​

ਬੇਦ ਪੁਰਾਨ ਸਿਮ੍ਰਿਤਿ ਬੂਝੈ ਮੂਲ ॥
baedh puraan simrith boojhai mool ||
He understands the fundamental essence of the Vedas, the Puraanas and the Simritees.

ਸੂਖਮ ਮਹਿ ਜਾਨੈ ਅਸਥੂਲੁ ॥
sookham mehi jaanai asathhool ||
In the unmanifest, he sees the manifest world to exist.

ਚਹੁ ਵਰਨਾ ਕਉ ਦੇ ਉਪਦੇਸੁ ॥
chahu varanaa ko dhae oupadhaes ||
He gives instruction to people of all castes and social classes.

ਨਾਨਕ ਉਸੁ ਪੰਡਿਤ ਕਉ ਸਦਾ ਅਦੇਸੁ ॥੪॥
naanak ous panddith ko sadhaa adhaes ||4||
O Nanak, to such a Pandit, I bow in salutation forever. ||4||

ਬੀਜ ਮੰਤ੍ਰੁ ਸਰਬ ਕੋ ਗਿਆਨੁ ॥
beej manthra sarab ko giaan ||
The Beej Mantra, the Seed Mantra, is spiritual wisdom for everyone.

ਚਹੁ ਵਰਨਾ ਮਹਿ ਜਪੈ ਕੋਊ ਨਾਮੁ ॥
chahu varanaa mehi japai kooo naam ||
Anyone, from any class, may chant the Naam.
~SGGS Ji p. 274​

ਸੋ ਸੁਰਤਾ ਸੋ ਬੈਸਨੋ ਸੋ ਗਿਆਨੀ ਧਨਵੰਤੁ ॥
so surathaa so baisano so giaanee dhhanavanth ||
They are intuitively wise, and they are Vaishnaavs, worshippers of Vishnu; they are spiritually wise, wealthy and prosperous.

ਸੋ ਸੂਰਾ ਕੁਲਵੰਤੁ ਸੋਇ ਜਿਨਿ ਭਜਿਆ ਭਗਵੰਤੁ ॥
so sooraa kulavanth soe jin bhajiaa bhagavanth ||
They are spiritual heros, of noble birth, who vibrate upon the Lord God.

ਖਤ੍ਰੀ ਬ੍ਰਾਹਮਣੁ ਸੂਦੁ ਬੈਸੁ ਉਧਰੈ ਸਿਮਰਿ ਚੰਡਾਲ ॥
khathree braahaman soodh bais oudhharai simar chanddaal ||
The Kh'shatriyas, the Brahmins, the low-caste Soodras, the Vaisha workers and the outcast pariahs are all saved,

ਜਿਨਿ ਜਾਨਿਓ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਆਪਨਾ ਨਾਨਕ ਤਿਸਹਿ ਰਵਾਲ ॥੧੭॥
jin jaaniou prabh aapanaa naanak thisehi ravaal ||17||
meditating on the Lord. Nanak is the dust of the feet of those who know his God. ||17||
~SGGS Ji p. 300​

ਖਤ੍ਰੀ ਬ੍ਰਾਹਮਣ ਸੂਦ ਵੈਸ ਉਪਦੇਸੁ ਚਹੁ ਵਰਨਾ ਕਉ ਸਾਝਾ ॥
khathree braahaman soodh vais oupadhaes chahu varanaa ko saajhaa ||
The four castes - the Kh'shaatriyas, Brahmins, Soodras and Vaishyas - are equal in respect to the teachings.
~SGGS Ji p. 747​

Nothing in Gurbani says Caste do not exist. Everything says that through authentic spirituality and Naam jap, the caste distinctions do not discriminate. Otherwise Gurbani would not be repeatedly referring to Caste. Also, as was the original point, it is historical fact that Hindu sect of Vaishnavism also broke down this caste barrier as far as spiritual equality was concerned. How am I hurting anyone's sentiments to state what is the truth?

Who did reject caste system first time in Indian History in so massive way? Sanatani or Vashnava? NO, only Sikh Gurus did, they deserve that credit, please.

That is not in accord with the facts veer ji.

"Ramanuja was born circa 1017, in Sriperumbudur, India."​

"Guru Nanak Dev Ji was born 1469 in the Western Punjab village of Talwandi."​

The great Raamanuja specifically included among his followers sc's, tribals, immigrant foreign soldiers, arabs and turks, destitutes women, jains, etc. Raamanuja's efforts are glossed over by modern pseudo-secular writers. Ramanuja and his later disciples running the movement, certainly saw to it that there was no more exclusivism of caste groups inside the community. All the same it appears they made sure that the brightest were selected as iyengars, evangelizers of vaishnavism, without any regard to their former caste or other origins. It is however true, after some centuries this reformist movement became just another caste, not quite sure about its place in the hierarchy.

The immense and lasting influence of Raamanuja is probably not realised by many Indians. Here are some direct and indirect descendants of his thought: ---the entire actual live vaishnava tradition of today, and including offshoots and modifications and the movements heavily influenced like those of Raamananda Kabir Ravidas Nanak Tulsidas Vallabhacharya Nimbaarka Madhvacharya Raghavendra Chaitanya Ramdas. ...even recent reformers like Phule and isckon and others. One characteristic method used by the gurus was community dinners, where everybody sat together without distinction. This went a long way towards reduction of old discriminations. http://www.vepachedu.org/manasanskriti/Brahmins.html

 

[Harjas Kaur Khalsa]

It is you Bhain ji because you see His sargun Sroop only in Rama and Krishna, Vishnu, poor intoxicated Shiva and all those hard to remember because there are loads of them. In fact His Sargun Sroop is every thing we see” eh Wis sansaar jo tum dekhte eh Harr ka roop hai( All the world you see, it is His form M-3) So He is grass in Sun in trees, He is in whatever you see. His Sargun is not limited to Rama and Krishna. Those guys have not that spiritual highness; to me Lord Christ is way higher than them. People look at actions of others to respect; obviously their actions are not of high spiritual beings,

You are misunderstanding the nature of an avataar. Everything is ultimately Him. But in manifestation, we are individual jivs. Avataaras are sargun saroop of the nirguna. Not all avataaras are complete and shine the same degree of Jyot. But all avataaras are incarnations of the One Uncreated. While we may say every being is the One Divine Beloved, this is correct in a certain sense. But also, a chela is not equal to his Guru, until he becomes enlightened. The sargun saroop are enlightened Guru's who guide the world of darkness back to light.

DIFFERENT ASPECTS OF THE SUPREME PERSON
An ancient prayer in Brahma Samhita says, "I worship Govinda, the primeval Lord, whose non-dual, perfect and eternal forms are unlimited, who is the original ancient person, yet in his blossoming youth, and who is beyond access for the Vedas, but very near to those with a pure, devoted heart."

The original Supreme Person, Krishna, expands into various forms to fulfill various purposes within His creation. He is known as Svayam Bhagavan (the Supreme Person Himself) and Lila Purusottama (the Supreme Enjoyer of Pastimes). To taste the full variety of loving exchanges with His devotees, He manifests various forms in both the material and the spiritual worlds.

Within the spiritual world, the Lord manifests Himself in His original form, in multiple forms with identical characteristics (such as in the rasa-dance and in the palaces of Dvaraka), as well as in multiple forms with different moods and characteristics (such as His brother, Balarama), which include the unlimited four-armed Vishnu forms pervading the vast spiritual sky.

When the Lord manifests Himself in the material world, the form which He displays is called "avatara", or "descent", that which descends from the world beyond. These avataras are classified under several categories in accordance with Their purpose. The general purpose of the descents is told to be threefold, namely (1) to bring joy to His devotees, (2) to destroy wicked elements in the world, and (3) to re-establish the principles of religion. These avataras are classified as follows:

(1) Lila-avatara (pastime descents): These forms of the Lord have very distinct features, and they enact unparalleled activities in this world. Some of them are Ramacandra (the ideal king and ruler), Narasimha (half-man half-lion form who saved His devotee Prahlada), and Matsya (the fish-form who swam in the waters of devastation).

(2) Purusa-avatara (descent for creation): There are three forms of the Lord particularly meant for the maintenance of the cosmic manifestation. They are (1) Karanodakasayi Vishnu who manifests all the universes, (2) Garbhodakasayi Vishnu who presides in each universe, and (3) Ksirodakasayi Vishnu, who presides in the hearts of all living entities, and is also known as the Paramatma.

(3) Guna-avatara (descents for controlling the modes of nature): There are three forms of the Lord meant for controlling each of the three modes of nature, namely goodness, passion and ignorance. (1) Brahma, who is generally an empowered living entity, is in charge of the mode of passion, and takes care of creation. (2) Vishnu is in charge of the mode of goodness, and takes care of maintenance. (3) Shiva, who is a transformed form of the Lord, is in charge of the mode of ignorance, and takes care of destruction.

(4) Saktyavesa-avatara (descents endowed with potency): When the power of the Lord for fulfilling a particular purpose is bestowed to a living entity, he is known as a saktyavesa-avatara. The powers bestowed are the power to teach divine wisdom, the power to instill devotion into others, the power to rule the world, and the power to create, among others. They are further divided into those who are directly empowered by the Lord and those who manifest a reflection of the Lord's potency.

(5) Manvantara-avatara (descents for the era of Manu): There are fourteen Manus who rule the humanity during each cosmic day of Brahma, and during each era there is a form of the Lord who descends to this world. The Lord's fourteen descents are known as Yajna, Vibhu, Satyasena, Hari, Vaikuntha Ajita, Vamana, Sarvabhauma, Risabha, Visvaksena, Dharma, Sudharma, Yogesvara and Brihadbhanu. Additionally, each Manu is a descent of the Lord.

(6) Yuga-avatara (descents for the age): There is a form of the Lord who descends in each of the four ages in the cosmic cycle of time, known as Satya, Treta, Dvapara and Kali-yugas. The Lord descends to teach the method of religion relevant for the particular age.
Gaudiya.com - Theology

When Guru ji calls HIM Ajooni in all over Guru Granth Sahib Ji, why any person would agree with this wrong notion" HE incarnates" His presence with in is not incarnation, like I said before.

Because Gurbani says that He incarnates. Why is Gurbani using this term, ਅਵਤਾਰੁ ?

ਨਾਨਕ ਸੇਵਾ ਕਰਹੁ ਹਰਿ ਗੁਰ ਸਫਲ ਦਰਸਨ ਕੀ ਫਿਰਿ ਲੇਖਾ ਮੰਗੈ ਨ ਕੋਈ ॥੨॥
naanak saevaa karahu har gur safal dharasan kee fir laekhaa mangai n koee ||2||
O Nanak, serve the Guru, the Lord Incarnate; the Blessed Vision of His Darshan is profitable, and in the end, you shall not be called to account. ||2||
~SGGS Ji p. 306​

ਨਾਥ ਨਰਹਰ ਦੀਨ ਬੰਧਵ ਪਤਿਤ ਪਾਵਨ ਦੇਵ ॥
naathh narehar dheen bandhhav pathith paavan dhaev ||
O Lord, Man-lion Incarnate, Companion to the poor, Divine Purifier of sinners;

ਭੈ ਤ੍ਰਾਸ ਨਾਸ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾਲ ਗੁਣ ਨਿਧਿ ਸਫਲ ਸੁਆਮੀ ਸੇਵ ॥੧॥
bhai thraas naas kirapaal gun nidhh safal suaamee saev ||1||
O Destroyer of fear and dread, Merciful Lord Master, Treasure of Excellence, fruitful is Your service. ||1||

ਹਰਿ ਗੋਪਾਲ ਗੁਰ ਗੋਬਿੰਦ ॥
har gopaal gur gobindh ||
O Lord, Cherisher of the World, Guru-Lord of the Universe.
~SGGS Ji p. 508​

ਜਗ ਅਉਰੁ ਨ ਯਾਹਿ ਮਹਾ ਤਮ ਮੈ ਅਵਤਾਰੁ ਉਜਾਗਰੁ ਆਨਿ ਕੀਅਉ ॥
jag aour n yaahi mehaa tham mai avathaar oujaagar aan keeao ||
In the great darkness of this world, the Lord revealed Himself, incarnated as Guru Arjun.
~SGGS Ji p. 1409​

ਇਹ ਪਧਤਿ ਤੇ ਮਤ ਚੂਕਹਿ ਰੇ ਮਨ ਭੇਦੁ ਬਿਭੇਦੁ ਨ ਜਾਨ ਬੀਅਉ ॥
eih padhhath thae math chookehi rae man bhaedh bibhaedh n jaan beeao ||
O mortal being, do not leave this path; do not think that there is any difference between God and Guru.

ਪਰਤਛਿ ਰਿਦੈ ਗੁਰ ਅਰਜੁਨ ਕੈ ਹਰਿ ਪੂਰਨ ਬ੍ਰਹਮਿ ਨਿਵਾਸੁ ਲੀਅਉ ॥੫॥
parathashh ridhai gur arajun kai har pooran breham nivaas leeao ||5||
The Perfect Lord God has manifested Himself; He dwells in the heart of Guru Arjun. ||5||

ਜਬ ਲਉ ਨਹੀ ਭਾਗ ਲਿਲਾਰ ਉਦੈ ਤਬ ਲਉ ਭ੍ਰਮਤੇ ਫਿਰਤੇ ਬਹੁ ਧਾਯਉ ॥
jab lo nehee bhaag lilaar oudhai thab lo bhramathae firathae bahu dhhaayo ||
As long as the destiny written upon my forehead was not activated, I wandered around lost, running in all directions.

ਕਲਿ ਘੋਰ ਸਮੁਦ੍ਰ ਮੈ ਬੂਡਤ ਥੇ ਕਬਹੂ ਮਿਟਿ ਹੈ ਨਹੀ ਰੇ ਪਛੁਤਾਯਉ ॥
kal ghor samudhr mai booddath thhae kabehoo mitt hai nehee rae pashhuthaayo ||
I was drowning in the horrible world-ocean of this Dark Age of Kali Yuga, and my remorse would never have ended.

ਤਤੁ ਬਿਚਾਰੁ ਯਹੈ ਮਥੁਰਾ ਜਗ ਤਾਰਨ ਕਉ ਅਵਤਾਰੁ ਬਨਾਯਉ ॥
thath bichaar yehai mathhuraa jag thaaran ko avathaar banaayo ||
O Mat'huraa, consider this essential truth: to save the world, the Lord incarnated Himself.
~SGGS Ji p. 1409​

His Sargun srop are also flowers, those killers, those Hindus and Muslims who tried to make hell for Guru ji because revolution was too hard for them to swallow. Why His Sargun srop ends at Rama and Krishna in your views Bhain ji?

Because you are misunderstanding the nature of the created sansaara. In the world of three gunas and Maya and duality, we are separated from God. It requires a Guru, who is the sargun saroop of the nirgun Jyot to lead us to mukti, so we can experience merging into the One All-pervading. He is right here with us. Our true nature is That. But we can't perceive it. That's why we need a Guru. Otherwise, to recklessly misapply the Advaitist teaching of the All-pervading is to assume we have no need for a Guru.

ਜਪ੍ਯ੍ਯਉ ਜਿਨ੍ਹ੍ਹ ਅਰਜੁਨ ਦੇਵ ਗੁਰੂ ਫਿਰਿ ਸੰਕਟ ਜੋਨਿ ਗਰਭ ਨ ਆਯਉ ॥੬॥
japyo jinh arajun dhaev guroo fir sankatt jon garabh n aayo ||6||
Whoever meditates on Guru Arjun Dayv, shall not have to pass through the painful womb of reincarnation ever again. ||6||

ਕਲਿ ਸਮੁਦ੍ਰ ਭਏ ਰੂਪ ਪ੍ਰਗਟਿ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮ ਉਧਾਰਨੁ ॥
kal samudhr bheae roop pragatt har naam oudhhaaran ||
In the ocean of this Dark Age of Kali Yuga, the Lord's Name has been revealed in the Form of Guru Arjun, to save the world.
~SGGS Ji p. 1409​

Gurbani clearly states we need a Guru. That is why we have an avataar.

 

[pk70]

He is the one, the one alone, in Him. All deities become One alone." ~Artharva Veda
Guru Nanak doesn’t talk about deities, the purpose is quite different
"Having evolved himself from the soul of the world, once separated from the first cause, he evaporates with, and emanates all nature out of himself. He does not stand above it, but is mixed up with it; Brahma and the universe form one Being, each particle of which is in its essence Brahma himself, who proceeded out of himself." ~Vishnu Purana
That is not exactly what mool mantra says, Sikhs are believer of Ajooni, Self Existent, that is why Mool Mantra is repeated numerous time to stress about being Ajooni , add to it, you quoted OM KAAR as tri murthy Guru ji doesn’t even talk about it. Regardless what they are doing in desperation, uniqueness stands alone, look at First page on Guru Granth Sahib Ik OANKAR, KARTHA PURAKH NIRBAO NIRVAIR AKAAL MURATH, AJOONI SWAMBH.
Don’t compare thse are not even of that quality
No one is forcing anything on Sikhs. Admittedly it is a point of dispute per Singh Sabhist reformers who attempted to remove all Hindu references from Gurbani. Ongkar is merely pronunciation difference from Omkar. The proof is in descriptions of Trimurthi and three gunas in relationship to the Parabrahm and creation of the world describing the Puranic definition of Omkar found in Gurbani itself.
Un true, no trimurthi is defined as they do save for references to guide followers, never felt it, understood it that way after studying so many times. It is desperate attempt to call a SUN a moon.

"Sarvam Omkara eva: Everything is Om, indeed. This is how the Upanishad begins."
I already wrote that as per amarkosh, it is used in prefix item, its not new, the idea Dr Sahib singh ji gives is used with a line from Upnishda. He doesn’t take that meaning because for him being a Sanskrit scholar, it is a way of showing respect not exactly ParBraham. He picks the third meaning which is actually “ BrahaM’ but not Trimurthy.
As you have read a lot about these things, kindly quote from Atharva Vedas, Shiv puran, Grur Puran, Aatam Puran, manu simiriti part 3rd slok 13, part 5 slok 155, see how they tell disgusting tales
Why pick and choose policy to drag Sikhism to old mist? Do we have those kinds of disgusting stories in Guru Granth Sahib ji then why even it is being compared with those Bhain ji?. In fact what you are doing is that simple, you are comparing a pure gold with contaminated one.

 

[pk70]

You are misunderstanding the nature of an avataar. Everything is ultimately Him. But in manifestation, we are individual jivs. Avataaras are sargun saroop of the nirguna. Not all avataaras are complete and shine the same degree of Jyot. But all avataaras are incarnations of the One Uncreated. While we may say every being is the One Divine Beloved, this is correct in a certain sense. But also, a chela is not equal to his Guru, until he becomes enlightened. The sargun saroop are enlightened Guru's who guide the world of darkness back to light.

NO Bhain ji, no avtar is His incarnation because HE is Ajooni, so much stress is given on this factor, who says so, Guru ji says" burn that mouth" Period. Then who are avtaras, or enlightened persons? Those who realized Him, who got His Grace as per His Hukam, period. Sikhism got over avtarvaad, the words used here and there cannot go against the basic principle of Sikhism, obviously who says He incarnates has more Hindu influence than of gurmat. If He is Ajooni, He is. His Sargun Srop is His manifestation, His presence. That is what is sought by those spirituals, they dont get stuck in MAYA. He never limits himself to one body period.

 

[Harjas Kaur Khalsa]

ਏਕ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨੰ ਸਰਬ ਦੇਵਾ ਦੇਵ ਦੇਵਾ ਤ ਆਤਮਾ ॥
eaek kirasanan sarab dhaevaa dhaev dhaevaa th aathamaa ||
The One Lord Krishna is the Divine Lord of all; He is the Divinity of the individual soul.

Here the translator uses” Lord” with Krishna, you think it is all about Krishna( may be he also thinks that way) but it is not, lets see why, see the next blow Vaak, Vasudeva is not krishan, Krishna himself says in Bhagvat Geeta that” I am son of Vasudeva”,

Veer ji, these scholars who keep trying to distort what Hinduism actually teaches, in an effort to distance Sikh spiritual teachings from Hindu spiritual teachings are either being deceptive or not even bothering to research, despite their credentials claiming them to be Sikh scholars. This is shameless. This is embarassing for the Sikh community. There is no scholarly integrity in these kind of erroneous distortions.

Vasudeva (Devanagari वसुदेव, IAST Vasudeva) is the father of Krishna, the son of Śũrasena, of the Yadava dynasty. His sister Kunti was married to Pandu. The patronymic Vāsudeva (with long ā) is a popular name of Krishna.

Related to this name is an early religion, sometimes called Bhagavatism[1] that was largely formed by the 4th century BC where Vāsudeva was worshiped as the supreme Deity in a strongly monotheistic format, where the supreme Being was perfect, eternal and full of grace.[1]

The name forms part of a famous Krishna mantra also known as a "twelve syllable mantra", which believed to be the earliest mantra from pre-reformation times, pre-dating sectarian divisions in Vaishnavism- (IAST oṁ namo bhagavate vāsudevāya), it is translated as "Om, reverence to the adorable son of Vasudeva".[1]
Vasudeva - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The name Vasudeva referring to Lord Krishna is revealed in Srimad Bhagavad-Gita in four different chapters. Lord Krishna uses the name Vasudeva twice to describe Himself in chapters 7 and 10 and then He is described twice more as Vasudeva in chapters 11 and 18 by Vedavyasa.

The first example of Vasudeva is in Bhagavad-Gita, chapter 7, verse 19 below:
bahunam janmanam ante jnanavam mam prapadyate
vasudevah sarvam iti sa mahatma su-durlabah
Translation
Thus after innumerable births one who is perfected in wisdom, understanding completely that Vasudeva is the ultimate cause of all causes surrenders unto Me; such a great soul is very rare.


In Srimad Bhagavad-Gita, chapter 10, verse 37 Lord Krishna declares again:
vrsinam vasudeva'smi pandavanam dhananjayah
muninam apy aham vyasah kavinam usana kavih
Translation
Of the descendants of Vrisni I am Vasudeva, of the Pandavas I am Dhananjaya, of the holy sages I am Vyasadeva and among great scholars of scriptures I am Usana.


Vedavyasa also refers to Lord Krishna as Vasudeva when describing the phenomenal universal form Lord Krishna displayed in Srimad Bhagavad-Gita, chapter 11, verse 50:
ity arjunam vasudevas tathoktva svakam rupam darsayamasa bhuyah
asvasayamasa ca bhitam enam bhutva punah saumya-vapur mahatma
Translation
Vasudeva speaking to Arjuna in this way, exhibited His four-armed form and then again appeared in His beautiful two armed form as the Supreme Lord Krishna and pacified Arjunas fears.


Then in the concluding chapter of Srimad Bhagavad-Gita, Vedavyasa again refers to Lord Krishna as Vasudeva in the Bhagavad-Gita, chapter 18, verse 74:
ity aham vasudevasya parthasya ca mahatmanah
samvadam imam asrausam adbhutam roma-harsanam
Translation
Thus I have heard this wonderful divine, discourse between two great souls Vasudeva and Arjuna and it is so electrifying that my hair is standing on end.


Vasudeva is a primary expansion of the Supreme Lord Krishna as revealed in the Vedic scriptures within the category designated as catur-vyuha. The signifigance and paramount position of Vasudeva is also thoroughly revealed in the illustrious Vedic scripture known as the Srimad Bhagavatam, canto 1, chapter 2, verse 28 and 29 as revealed below:


vasudeva para veda vasudeva para makhah
vasudeva para yoga vasudeva para kriyah
vasudeva param jnanam vasudeva param tapah
vasudeva paro dharmo vasudeva para gatih
Translation
The ultimate goal of all knowledge is the Supreme Lord Krishna known as Vasudeva. The purpose of all austerities is to please Vasudeva. The purpose of yoga is to realize Vasudeva. All benefits which we receive are awarded by Vasudeva solely and all penances are performed to learn Vasudeva only. Vasudeva is the Supreme knowledge. Righteousness in its most complete form is rendering loving devotional service unto Him. Vasudeva is the supreme goal and ultimate reality of all existence.

So from this brief introduction the criteria of Vasudeva has been amply established . Vasudeva in the Bhagavad-Gita

 

[Harjas Kaur Khalsa]

NO Bhain ji, no avtar is His incarnation because HE is Ajooni,

I can't force you to agree. But you are simply ignoring the Gurbani which describes in detail the sarguna of avataaras and calls them the Lord God.

 

[Harjas Kaur Khalsa]

Now lets look at your quote below
ਸਾਵਲ ਸੁੰਦਰ ਰੂਪ ਬਣਾਵਹਿ ਬੇਣੁ ਸੁਨਤ ਸਭ ਮੋਹੈਗਾ ॥੯॥
saaval sundhar roop banaavehi baen sunath sabh mohaigaa ||9||
He assumed the beautiful form of the blue-skinned Krishna; hearing His flute, all are fascinated and enticed. ||9|| NOTE word is “ banave” means create not assume No wonder misunderstanding continues

(ਬਣਾਵਹਿ ), Banave is a Hindi word which literal translation means "replica." .. english to hindi dictionary ..

Assumed, created, replica, in conjunction with prior definitions of avataar, the meaning is not altered. Krishna remains a form of the formless Lord per these translations. You have to ask yourself logically, who is the "He" which took on this form? And the answer per other vaaks in Gurbani, the formless Lord Himself.

 

[Harjas Kaur Khalsa]

ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰ ਨਾਨਕ ਦੇਉ ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰਿ ਆਕਾਰ ਬਣਾਇਆ ।
nirankaar naanak dayu nirankaari aakaar banaaiaa|
The formless Lord assumed the form of Guru Nanak Dev who is second all forms.
Bhain ji, poor translator translates” banaeea= to make” in to “assume”, that can give you wrong signal, do not depend on him Here Formless Lords’ blessings are expressed, He created Nanak

Veerji please, (ਬਣਾਇਆ), Banaia, from bana. Means same thing as roop or form. The vaak says the formless Lord took form as Guru Nanak. Why the hair-splitting? For the awkward grammatical construction of English language, translators used the word "assume" meaning ("to take on") form. It does not alter the meaning of the Guru vaak. The formless has still become the form of Guru Nanak per Gurbani.

ਗੁਰੁ ਅੰਗਦੁ ਗੁਰੁ ਅੰਗ ਤੇ ਗੰਗਹੁ ਜਾਣੁ ਤਰੰਗ ਉਠਾਇਆ ।
guru angadu guru ang tay gangahu jaanu tarang utdaaiaa|
In turn, he created Guru Angad from his limbs as the waves created by Ganges.
again, Ganges hasn’t created any thing, translator is just struggling but failed to convey message, in simple words Guru Nanak blessed Guru Angad as of his own part, means worthy of that jyot Formless put in Guru Nanak by the Lord

I believe the English construction of the sentence is saying, as the Ganges creates waves, waves being fundamentally a part of the Ganges river, in like manner did Guru create Guru Angad from his limbs, or His fundamental Self. The meaning is not struggling at all.

ਗੰਗ ਗੁਸਾਇਨਿ ਗਹਿਰ ਗੰਭੀਰ ॥
Gang gusāin gahir gambẖīr.
The mother Ganges is deep and profound.
~SGGS Ji p. 1162​

ਜਲ ਤਰੰਗੁ ਜਿਉ ਜਲਹਿ ਸਮਾਇਆ ॥
jal tharang jio jalehi samaaeiaa ||
As the waves of water merge again with the water,

ਤਿਉ ਜੋਤੀ ਸੰਗਿ ਜੋਤਿ ਮਿਲਾਇਆ ॥
thio jothee sang joth milaaeiaa ||
so does my light merge again into the Light.
~SGGS Ji p. 102​

ਆਸੰਭਉ ਉਦਵਿਅਉ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਪੂਰਨ ਬਿਧਾਤਉ ॥
aasanbho oudhaviao purakh pooran bidhhaatho ||
The Self-existent, Perfect Primal Lord God Creator has taken birth.
Bhain ji, "oudavio" means to come in to light but it doesn’t mean taking birth
It should be” Self existent Creator shown up light in this world, or came into light, incarnation is not discussed here.( He has mediums why would He take birth?)

(ਉਦਵਿਅਉ), from Sanskrit word Udvana, meaning "ud-vāna n. the going out." or "appearance." Sir Monier-Williams-A Sanskrit-English Dictionary

Again, I acknowledge the translation is not exact, it is still saying the formless Unborn Lord (who is without form) has gone out (into the world, taken form "appearance.") It does not fundamentally alter the meaning of the Guru vaak. It is still talking about the nirguna which has become manifest in the sargun saroop of Guru Angad Ji. And if you want to split hairs, the proof of this is in Gurbani which expressly says (ਅਵਤਾਰ), so that there is no doubt as to the meaning.

ਜਗ ਅਉਰੁ ਨ ਯਾਹਿ ਮਹਾ ਤਮ ਮੈ ਅਵਤਾਰੁ ਉਜਾਗਰੁ ਆਨਿ ਕੀਅਉ ॥
jag aour n yaahi mehaa tham mai avathaar oujaagar aan keeao ||
In the great darkness of this world, the Lord revealed Himself, incarnated as Guru Arjun.
~SGGS Ji p. 1409​

So your allegation of "avataarvaad" being derived only from mistranslations and not being a part of Sikh teaching per Gurbani is false.