Hinduism Sikhism, Hinduism And Sanatan Dharam

[pk70]

sodhi... Is In Gurbani. Did Someone Artificially Put It There? You Bow Your Head To It As Guru. How Am I Lying To Quote It? You Say It Is Mistranslation...but Word Is There, In Gurmukhi. Stop Using Straw Man Arguments To Attack Me As A Liar. I'm Asking The Question, Why The Caste Surname Designation Is In Gurbani. I Didn't Put That Word There. Why Has Caste System Been Observed In Sikh Community For Hundreds Of Years? And Why Do You Blame "some Hindu Guy" For Practices Of Sikhs Simply Because You Don't Like Them?

This Is The Way Bhain Ji You Cover Up Your Lies, Were These Words Said By Guru Ji? If Yes, You Are Right, If Wrong,you Still Lie And Try To Stand By It Foolishly

 

[Harjas Kaur Khalsa]

This Is The Way Bhain Ji You Cover Up Your Lies, Were These Words Said By Guru Ji? If Yes, You Are Right, If Wrong,you Still Lie And Try To Stand By It Foolishly

If word SODHI is written in Gurmukhi, and is in Gurbani, and we bow our head to it as Guru... how can it NOT be Guru's word?

This is only possible with a fair person, as per my observation regardless what evidence is given to you, drums of your own views go on. It becomes technically “nonsense” debate. Debaters accept right evidence unlike you. Let me give you one example before you judge me again as per your habit. I gave you numerous time a quote by the same person, Bhai Gurdas Ji, did you accept it by considering only one fact at his advantage “he wrote Guru Granth Sahib ji as he was dictated, he lived and discussed personally with Guru ji”? you stand no where close to his mastery on Gurbani. I am sorry and forgive me,I feel it is just wastage of time even to read your posts, they are biased and one sided.

And who did this ugly thing? Was it evil Hindus? NO! It was JattSikhs! You accuse me of "judging" you where you call Hinduism fake and evil and ugly. Yet you prove that you do, over and over, and even call me liar for quoting the Gurbani, asking the questions. You judge me all over the place in crudest terms, yet refuse to see what I'm saying... Some Hindu's are good. Some Sikhs are bad. Don't judge entire religion of HInduism as WORTHLESS and DISGUSTING without looking in the mirror at Sikhism's own flaws which aren't different from the worst of Hindu extremists. EVIL IS EVIL. GOOD IS GOOD. IT HAS NO NAME OF SIKH OR HINDU ON IT TO BLAME. SO STOP BLAMING HINDUS! Try to understand there are more commonalities between Sikhism and Hinduism than have been acknowledged. Even the original meaning of caste system is distorted by Hindus and Sikhs alike. So instead of being a hardline division, it is a grey area with good and bad on ALL sides. THAT IS NO LIE, BUT PURE TRUTH.
YouTube - Bant Singh can still sing

You are the one who can't face the truth. NOT ALL HINDUS ARE CORRUPTED. NOT ALL SIKHS ARE PURE. CASTEISM IS ALIVE AND WELL IN SIKHISM. SOME HINDU'S WORK AGAINST CASTE DISCRIMINATION.

The world, sadly, is NOT black and white, but shades of grey. For some reason, casteism has persisted within Sikhism since the very beginning. It is NOT fake and a lie to examine why that is. For some reason you always allege prejudice, yet can't seem to refrain from calling all Hindu's as corrupted and Hindu spiritual teachings as "disgusting." Just look in your own community and see that we have HUMAN problems, and stop creating artificial divisions between Hindu and SIkh based on prejudicial untruths.

ਸੋ ਐਸਾ ਹਰਿ ਸਭਨਾ ਕਾ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਕੈ ਵਲਿ ਹੈ ਤਿਨਿ ਸਭਿ ਵਰਨ ਚਾਰੇ ਖਾਣੀ ਸਭ ਸ੍ਰਿਸਟਿ ਗੋਲੇ ਕਰਿ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਅਗੈ ਕਾਰ ਕਮਾਵਣ ਕਉ ਦੀਏ ॥
so aisaa har sabhanaa kaa prabh sathigur kai val hai thin sabh varan chaarae khaanee sabh srisatt golae kar sathigur agai kaar kamaavan ko dheeeae ||
Such is God, the Lord of all; He is on the True Guru's side. All castes and social classes, the four sources of creation, and the whole universe are slaves of the True Guru; God makes them work for Him.
~SGGS Ji p. 851​

ਬ੍ਰਾਹਮਣੁ ਖਤ੍ਰੀ ਸੂਦ ਵੈਸ ਚਾਰਿ ਵਰਨ ਚਾਰਿ ਆਸ੍ਰਮ ਹਹਿ ਜੋ ਹਰਿ ਧਿਆਵੈ ਸੋ ਪਰਧਾਨੁ ॥
braahaman khathree soodh vais chaar varan chaar aasram hehi jo har dhhiaavai so paradhhaan ||
There are four castes: Brahmin, Kh'shaatriya, Soodra and Vaishya, and there are four stages of life. One who meditates on the Lord, is the most distinguished and renowned.
~SGGS Ji p. 861​

ਕੁਲਿ ਸੋਢੀ ਗੁਰ ਰਾਮਦਾਸ ਤਨੁ ਧਰਮ ਧੁਜਾ ਅਰਜੁਨੁ ਹਰਿ ਭਗਤਾ ॥੬॥
kul sodtee gur raamadhaas than dhharam dhhujaa arajun har bhagathaa ||6||
In the Sodhi family, is born Arjun, the son of Guru Raam Daas, the holder of the banner of Dharma and the devotee of God. ||6||

ਧ੍ਰੰਮ ਧੀਰੁ ਗੁਰਮਤਿ ਗਭੀਰੁ ਪਰ ਦੁਖ ਬਿਸਾਰਣੁ ॥
dhhranm dhheer guramath gabheer par dhukh bisaaran ||
The Support of the Dharma, immersed in the deep and profound Teachings of the Guru, the Remover of the pains of others.
~SGGS Ji p. 1407​

ਗੁਰ ਅਮਰਦਾਸ ਕੀ ਅਕਥ ਕਥਾ ਹੈ ਇਕ ਜੀਹ ਕਛੁ ਕਹੀ ਨ ਜਾਈ ॥
gur amaradhaas kee akathh kathhaa hai eik jeeh kashh kehee n jaaee ||
The Unspoken Speech of Guru Amar Daas cannot be expressed with only one tongue.

ਸੋਢੀ ਸ੍ਰਿਸ੍ਟਿ ਸਕਲ ਤਾਰਣ ਕਉ ਅਬ ਗੁਰ ਰਾਮਦਾਸ ਕਉ ਮਿਲੀ ਬਡਾਈ ॥੩॥
sodtee srist sakal thaaran ko ab gur raamadhaas ko milee baddaaee ||3||
Guru Raam Daas of the Sodhi dynasty has now been blessed with Glorious Greatness, to carry the whole world across. ||3||
~SGGS Ji p. 1406​

ਲਹਣੈ ਪੰਥੁ ਧਰਮ ਕਾ ਕੀਆ ॥
lehanai panthh dhharam kaa keeaa ||
Lehnaa established the path of righteousness and Dharma,

ਅਮਰਦਾਸ ਭਲੇ ਕਉ ਦੀਆ ॥
amaradhaas bhalae ko dheeaa ||
which He passed on to Guru Amar Daas, of the Bhalla dynasty.

ਤਿਨਿ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਰਾਮਦਾਸੁ ਸੋਢੀ ਥਿਰੁ ਥਪ੍ਯ੍ਯਉ ॥
thin sree raamadhaas sodtee thhir thhapyo ||
Then, He firmly established the Great Raam Daas of the Sodhi dynasty.

ਹਰਿ ਕਾ ਨਾਮੁ ਅਖੈ ਨਿਧਿ ਅਪ੍ਯ੍ਯਉ ॥
har kaa naam akhai nidhh apyo ||
He was blessed with the inexhaustible treasure of the Lord's Name.

ਅਪ੍ਯ੍ਯਉ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਅਖੈ ਨਿਧਿ ਚਹੁ ਜੁਗਿ ਗੁਰ ਸੇਵਾ ਕਰਿ ਫਲੁ ਲਹੀਅੰ ॥
apyo har naam akhai nidhh chahu jug gur saevaa kar fal leheean ||
He was blessed with the treasure of the Lord's Name; throughout the four ages, it is inexhaustible. Serving the Guru, He received His reward.

ਬੰਦਹਿ ਜੋ ਚਰਣ ਸਰਣਿ ਸੁਖੁ ਪਾਵਹਿ ਪਰਮਾਨੰਦ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਕਹੀਅੰ ॥
bandhehi jo charan saran sukh paavehi paramaanandh guramukh keheean ||
Those who bow at His Feet and seek His Sanctuary, are blessed with peace; those Gurmukhs are blessed with supreme bliss.

ਪਰਤਖਿ ਦੇਹ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਸੁਆਮੀ ਆਦਿ ਰੂਪਿ ਪੋਖਣ ਭਰਣੰ ॥
parathakh dhaeh paarabreham suaamee aadh roop pokhan bharanan ||
The Guru's Body is the Embodiment of the Supreme Lord God, our Lord and Master, the Form of the Primal Being, who nourishes and cherishes all.
~SGGS Ji p. 1401​

I don't see "rejecting" of caste in Gurbani as claimed, or anywhere Gurbani says explicitly "don't follow caste! Don't believe in caste!" Nowhere! You would think, as a reform where Guru rejects caste, it would be clearer than 1 vaar by Bhai Gurdas Ji, which really only means spiritually Guru see's all 4 castes as 1. It doesn't even say castes do not exist, stop believing in them! But Gurbani says, God created caste, and affirms the reform started in Vaishnav Hinduism, "who loves God is the real brahmin, who loves evil is the real shudra." I only see caste as acknowledged historic social reality. And I see reform as per Vaishnavism to equate equality of spirituality. And certainly, I see caste prejudice and corruption just as common within Sikhism as within Hinduism. Instead of blindly condemning Hinduism, why don't Sikhs promote authentic, honest reform, and not merely that which is self-deceit, pretended, merely idealistic?

Interesting articles on how contemporary Hindu's view caste. Who can fail to see that some Hindu's promote reform, and some Sikhs are worse than the corrupted brahmins condemned in Gurubani? So why keep exaggerating the lie that ALL Hindu's are evil, and ALL Sikhs reject the corruptions being accused as quality of Hindus?

"The vedic priests did not bring with them the caste system. The early vedic people had a flexible social organization in which people could change their vocations easily. Different members within the same family practiced different vocations. But as they came into contact with hostile tribes and competing traditions, they resorted to caste system to preserve their identity as a group. Some form of caste system was already in vogue in ancient India 6, which in all probability the vedic people adopted to maintain their racial purity and family lineages. This is evident from the fact in the entire Rigveda there is no reference to the caste system except in the Purusha sukta which is considered by many scholars as a later day interpolation... Lord Krishna himself was brought up by a family of cowherds...

Many ancient sages and rishis also came from humble backgrounds. Parasurama was a brahmin by birth but a warrior by profession. Vishwamitra7 was a warrior by birth but practiced austerities like a brahmins and became a great rishi. Sage Parashar, the famous law giver, was the son of an outcaste (chandala). Rishi Vashishta was born to a prostitute ,while sage Vyasa, the original author of the Mahabharata, was born to a fisherwoman. Rishi Valmiki the original composer of Ramayana came from a tribal family of traditional hunters. Some composers of the Vedic and Upanishadic hymns belonged to either lower castes or mixed castes. Satyakama Jabala was born to a prostitute who could not tell him who his father was...

The Rigvedic society had a flexible caste system which allowed individuals to change their castes if necessary. Color (varna) and family lineage were more important during this period rather than occupation. But during the post vedic period, caste system became rigid and offered little flexibility to people to pursue vocations not authorized by caste rules. Foreign invasions and the presence of foreigners should have sparked this new development to prevent the possibility of caste pollution and confusion of castes...

No vedic tradition is valid unless it is found in the Vedas. The caste system would not have found approval among the vedic people unless there was some reference to it in the Vedas. The Purusha Sukta in the 10th Mandala of the Rigveda describes how the castes came into existence, from different parts of Purusha, the Cosmic Soul, at the time of a grand sacrifice performed by the gods. The brahmins came out of his mouth, the kshatriyas from his arms, the vaisyas from his thighs and the sudras from his feet. Many scholars believe that concepts and the imagery of Purusha Sukta 11 belong to later Vedic period rather than the Rigvedic period and so it was probably a later day interpolation. It is interesting that this hymn is quoted even today by many orthodox brahmins to justify the system, despite the inconsistencies in the logic employed. Firstly the one indivisible and unchanging Brahman does not have a body like humans. Secondly even if he has, his feet cannot be unclean compared to his mouth... The Hindu Caste System

In a 1966 ruling, the Supreme Court of India defined the Hindu faith as follows for legal purposes:
~Acceptance of the Vedas with reverence as the highest authority in religious and philosophic matters and acceptance with reverence of Vedas by Hindu thinkers and philosophers as the sole foundation of Hindu philosophy.
~Spirit of tolerance and willingness to understand and appreciate the opponent's point of view based on the realization that truth is many-sided.
~Acceptance of great world rhythm — vast periods of creation, maintenance and dissolution follow each other in endless succession — by all six systems of Hindu philosophy.
~Acceptance by all systems of Hindu philosophy of the belief in rebirth and pre-existence.
~Recognition of the fact that the means or ways to salvation are many.
~Realization of the truth that numbers of Gods to be worshiped may be large, yet there are Hindus who do not believe in the worshiping of idols.
~Dharma in orthodox Hindu Caste Society
~According to one view, the Caste system shows how strongly many have felt about each person following his or her dharma, or destined path.
A perversion, according to many Hindus, of dharma's true meaning, caste still plays a significant role in Hindu society; however, post Independence, caste is rapidly losing favour in India and caste-based discrimination has been illegitimised.

The British Raj and the subsequent governments have used the caste based politics effectively to divide and conquer for their own personal political gains. The Vedas do not condone discrimination of any sort. The four 'varna's (literally, 'color') or castes, were based upon the duties to society and worked together towards the welfare of the society. They had equal standing in the society...Hinduism Origins, Nomenclature And Society

Vedas did not say anything about people belonging to higher or lower caste by birth. The creation of the human beings, as described in "Purushashuktam",started with the earth and sky. Then came the forests and villages followed by Vedas and human beings. This is explained in Purushashuktam as "Brahamanoshyamu kamaseetha bahu rajan yakrudaha. Uruthathasyayathvaisyaha path yagum suthroajayatha" . This verse has been interpreted wrongly by some as brahmins being created from God's face, chatrikas from the arms, vaishyas from the thighs and sutras from the feet. It is further stated wrongly by the same people that the brahmins created from the face of God belongs to higher caste and sutras born from the feet belong to the lower caste.

Vedas says "Janman JayatheSutraha karmana jayathe thvijeha". The real meaning of this verse in Purushashuktam is that all the human beings are born equal as sutras, belonging to the lowest caste. They are elevated to the higher level of brahmins when and only when they perform selfless service to fellow human beings and the world. It is important to note this real meaning of this verse in Purushashuktam. "Pathpayahum suthro ajayatha". "Ajayatha" means that one turns into one of the four castes rather than being born in one. At the time of birth one is ignorant and innocent and is considered a sutra . When he learns Vedas and becomes fully knowledgeable in sastras and follows it with selfless service he becomes a Brahmin, such as, Vedavyasar.( This does not include those who have only limited knowledge in sastras and perform rituals).

One who becomes strong bodily is a candidate for a king (Kshatriya). Just as the thigh of the body supports the entire body and keeps the body stable, one who learns business and economy which are essential to keep the country stable and prosperous, becomes a vaishya. It should be noted again that every one is born as sutra and can become any one of the other three castes based on their actions during their life time. A good example is the case of Sri Rama. Sri Rama was prince but not a king. Only after he is qualified and approved through the royal ceremony he becomes a king. If this is understood, it should be clear that "chadhurvarnam" does not refer to caste.
Shri Rajarathina Bhattar 3/24/03 Shastric Reform: - Varnas, Jaathis and Castes

~Bhul chak maaf

 

[pk70]

If word SODHI is written in Gurmukhi, and is in Gurbani, and we bow our head to it as Guru... how can it NOT be Guru's word?

Quote:
You are pretty good at evasive technique. My question was" Did you Guru ji say those words as you wrote" Guru ji wrote?"
Answer is not, those words were quoted by you are not Guru ji's own words but of Sundar Ji who wrote Bani Sadd. This proves you lied when you wrote" Guru Himself designated his family name." Dont try to be smart here, you used word" Guru himself" obviously you addressed to Guru.

All the quotes you are giving do not advocate caste system in any way, many times I explained( it is just worthless " to show pearl before a swine" as per your own quote),As I see, in the same way well versed in Gurbani, Bhai Gurdas Ji sees it and writes" Guru Nanak make one caste from four" That and Tenth Master's done practical in this context is not seen by your baised views obviously. I am sorry, you are no more qualified than Bhai Gurdas and Tenth Master; and your views are totally your own assumptions based on your personal experience with those so called Sikhs who didnt follow Gurbani. You are trying to dismatle all basics of Sikhism from all sides to promote Vashnavas and Hinfuism on this site. I noticed you ignoring Guru ji's own words, so it doesnt surprise me at all. Bhain ji sorry to say that you are not debating but trying to post this stuff for what, still I wonder. Not a word on Hindu fabnatics from you so far not even as a humanatarian; however, loud cries about any word used against those sects of Hinduism which were forced on us by you. I feel those Hindu gentlemen are more humanatarians than your this behavior, who at least didnt spare Hindus fanatics while writin about" Blue Star" you still stand on their side. Sorry Bhain ji, there is no substance left here save for repeated efforts of promoting Vashnava and Hinduism on this site and, yu are bent upon ablaming all, me, MOD, and all Sikhs. Thanks though. I think you are in California as I am, it is time to go to sleep, I wish you "good night and Sat Sree Akaal!"

 

[Harjas Kaur Khalsa]

You are pretty good at evasive technique. My question was" Did you Guru ji say those words as you wrote" Guru ji wrote?"
Answer is not, those words were quoted by you are not Guru ji's own words but of Sundar Ji who wrote Bani Sadd. This proves you lied when you wrote" Guru Himself designated his family name." Dont try to be smart here, you used word" Guru himself" obviously you addressed to Guru.

Shri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is not a book of bhagat bani, as I answered:

"If word SODHI is written in Gurmukhi, and is in Gurbani, and we bow our head to it as Guru... how can it NOT be Guru's word?"


EVERY SINGLE WORD IN SHRI GURU GRANTH SAHIB JI MAHARAAJ IS WORD OF GURU! Or are you saying Shri GURU Granth Sahib is NOT Guru in every word, and on every page? And if not, why do you bow your head to bhagat bani and not to Guru? Don't YOU be smart!

You are trying to dismatle all basics of Sikhism from all sides to promote Vashnavas and Hinfuism on this site. I noticed you ignoring Guru ji's own words, so it doesnt surprise me at all.

If Sikhism is so flimsy that it can be dismantled by analyzing it in context of history and Vaishnavism, then how can if be the Sikhism which will defend the righteous and poor of the world, which collapses so easily under scrutiny? I cannot possibly and neither have I the intention to "dismantle Sikhism" as you accuse. You would do well to investigate the reality of sanatan Sikhism as valid part of Sikh history, whether or not you personally agree with it. It's mere existance as a philosophic position is no threat, except to the profoundly insecure. And I don't ignore Guruji's words at all. In fact I quote them. Because there ARE in fact different valid interpretations besides the intolerant Sikh mainstream Tat Khalsa views.

Not a word on Hindu fabnatics from you so far not even as a humanatarian; however, loud cries about any word used against those sects of Hinduism which were forced on us by you. I feel those Hindu gentlemen are more humanatarians than your this behavior, who at least didnt spare Hindus fanatics while writin about" Blue Star" you still stand on their side.

I get censored by Aad ji for referring to your blatent disrespect of Hindu scriptures as "disgusting" "immoral" "worthless" and "obscene" as jihadi. Yet you feel free to call me sympathetic to Operation Bluestar. You are so irresponsible and hostile in labeling me this way it's pathetic. And all this forum does is encourage you and censor me. What a joke. Keep calling me a liar. Anyone can see who the real liar is. Why should I discuss faults of Hindu fanatics when I'm trying to show you ALL HINDUS AREN'T EVIL AND ALL SIKHS AREN'T GOOD? You just want me to feed your hatred veer ji. And I won't. When it is appropriate to discuss failings of Hindutva, I will, and I have. Right now it is Sikhs sending assassination squads to deras and having riots waving swords and spewing hate for Hindus on public websites. Hence my "humanitarian" position. Taking the separatist and hateful position condemning ALL Hindus as corrupt and worthy of violence which many Khalistanis are doing now, and have tacit support of mainstream Sikhs will lead to a bloodbath. DON'T SAY I DIDN'T WARN YOU THIS PATH OF PRAISING HOSTILITY AND BLAME OF HINDUS WAS WRONG AND DESTRUCTIVE. BUT YOU REFUSE TO SEE REASON. ANY TEACHING OF SEPARATISM AND HATE WILL LEAD TO ADHARMIC VIOLENCE AGAINST THE INNOCENT.

Centre probes threat to Hindu families

Stop riots, Shiv Sena chief warns Sikhs

"Why are you raising your sword on the innocents? Maintain peace and stop the violence immediately" Thackeray said adding, attacking innocents would boomerang on them." Thackeray warns Sikhs against resorting to violence

Punjab on the boil, protesters block railway movement

Sikh mobs run riot in Mumbai

Bikes nail culprits of Sikh riots

"In a report published in February titled "Hyperlink to Hinduphobia: Online Hatred, Extremism and Bigotry Against Hindus," HAF found that Web sites promoting religious hatred and intolerance toward Hindus and Hinduism are proliferating. The 52-page report suggested that exposing online hate speech is a crucial first step in combating a major factor behind prevalent negative stereotypes of Hinduism... According to statistics provided in the report, "demonic" and "satanic" are the terms most commonly used today to describe Hinduism by numerous anti-Hindu Web sites easily accessible on the Internet. Hinduism is one of the world's oldest spiritual traditions. From its emphasis on nonviolence and respect for all living entities to its introduction of practices such as yoga and meditation, Hinduism has had a great impact on the wider world.

But the report points out that through the spread of inaccurate and malicious content over the Internet, online readers are too often taught that the deities worshipped by Hindus are demonic figures and that Hindu beliefs and practices are morally degrading. Hindus are portrayed as a condemned people destined for hell, even as their lasting contributions in science, mathematics, astronomy and medicine are appropriated and separated from their source. The religion is falsely described as inseparable from caste hierarchies, female infanticide and bride-burning. Despite considerable efforts by groups such as the Anti-Defamation League, the Simon Wiesenthal Center (SWC), the American Jewish Committee and others such as the Southern Poverty Law Center in combating online hatred, there has been scant focus on hate sites against Hindus.

"It's alarming for a community because when you see something like these denigrating Web sites, you wonder if this is the way the majority of the people view your faith, and that is a scary thought," she said." INFLAMMATORY WEB SITES STOKE ANTI-HINDU SENTIMENT

STOP THE ANTI-HINDU HATE! What kind of definition of Sikhism is this? Do you think somehow Hindu extremism is some kind of justification? The whole point, these are overreactions against one dera, yet directed against ALL Hindus, against the Indian government. This kind of hostility and separatism is destabilizing the fragile, hard won peace. Do you want to see the Indian government begin overreacting again with anti-Sikh pogroms? Then how can you speak about justifications of demonizing and blaming Hindus? Start speaking for peace and reconciliation, as a community, before it's too late! Why consider it an "insult" that someone see's similarities between SIkh and Hindu teachings and beliefs that shows RELATIONSHIP, BROTHERHOOD, and KINSHIP? It is truly a jihadi mentality to brand all Hindu's as unworthy, as immoral, as corrupt, as the hated enemy of Sikhs. Sikhs ARE being manipulated, but not by Hindutva. And THAT is why Simranjit Singh Mann is shouting "Pakistan Zindabad and marching with Sikh-Muslim Unity."

"No official reasons were given for Vedanti’s sudden resignation but SGPC sources said it was the fallout of the row between the Sikh community and the Dera Sacha Sauda sect in which Vedanti was seen toeing the hardliner and radical Sikh leaders’ line rather than that of the Akali Dal and SGPC. Vedanti was handpicked by Punjab Chief Minister Parkash Singh Badal in April 2000 to head the highest Sikh religious body. Vedanti ran into several controversies during his tenure including a pro-Khalistan speech he made in the US in April, the Dera-Sikh row, the supremacy battle with Takht Patna Sahib Jathedar Iqbal Singh and his frequent visits abroad."
Vedanti submitted his resignation

Vedanti shown with Bhindranwale portrait installed in Harmandir Sahib Complex. What message does this send? Is this the desire for peace, reconciliation, dialogue and understanding?

 

[Astroboy]

It's high time a minority community learns that the pen is mightier than the sword.
Critical thinking is required to ward off a greater threat. Divide and Rule works all the time.
Why create circumstances where Sikhs become the victims ?
Stop depending on govt aid. Be self-reliant.
Amarsanghera taught me, better to be feared than loved.

Guru Granth Sahib Guru Vaak,

“Aklee Sahib sewyai, Aklee paa-iay maan,
Aklee parh kay bujheeay, Aklee keechay daan,
Nanak, akhay rah ih, hor galaan Shaitan.”

 

[Archived_Member_19]

namjap ji

not in this context

 

[pk70]

Shri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is not a book of bhagat bani, as I answered
Guru Amar Das ji, Guru Ram Das, Guru Arjan Dev Ji, Guru Tag Bahadur ji and Guru Gobind Singh ji, prove Bhain ji if any of them used Bhalla, or Sodhi” themselves” as you wrote. Obviously your limited knowledge of Gurbani forces you to take shelter to justify” himself” word for Guru Granth Sahib.. That says all about how much substance your debate carries. Lie is enveloped in new colors, still it is a lie. Now it is also understood, you don’t even want to realize what inaccuracy you post.
"If word SODHI is written in Gurmukhi, and is in Gurbani, and we bow our head to it as Guru... how can it NOT be Guru's word?
Uunlike you, we do understand its meaning and has nothing to do with caste system. Like I said before that you are no way better than Bhai Gurdas Ji and Tenth Master who clearly verified Guru Nanak Message. Bhain ji confusions mitigate chances of right understanding.
EVERY SINGLE WORD IN SHRI Guru Granth SAHIB JI MAHARAAJ IS WORD OF GURU! Or are you saying Shri Guru Granth Sahib is NOT Guru in every word, and on every page? And if not, why do you bow your head to bhagat bani and not to Guru? Don't YOU be smart!
Of course but do we need to lie? And say” this is said by Guru himself” How do you conclude Guru Granth Sahib is male? You think Bhain ji, you can get away with this lie by using Guru Granth Sahib’s name, actually it is verse, and you lie then cover it up.


If Sikhism is so flimsy that it can be dismantled by analyzing it in context of history and Vaishnavism
What is in your posts, a sheer propaganda of Vashnavas, Sanatana, support for fanatic Hindus, I dint notice any thing inspiring or rational We as Sikhs stand on Guru bachan” HOR KACHI HAI BANI….M-3” what Vedas say, Ramayana Says, Bhagawat Geeta Says, Upnishda Say, we just don’t care, we are advised to follow only Gurbani, when you took Amrit, I feel this might have told you to follow only Gurbani in stead of starting a campaign of proving Guru Panth has nothing new.
You are so irresponsible and hostile in labeling me this way it's pathetic. And all this forum does is encourage you and censor me.
You called me Hindu hater, they didn’t sensor you! Did they? In your eyes, people are discriminating you, accusing you, hating the Hindus, disrespecting the Hindus Scriptures ( even though in some of them include those stories in there which really do not deserve any respect ) You even use Guru ji by saying he said” Vismaad Ved” and refuse to accept he also says: Vismad bhed” and Vedas teach do this get that What you have been doing using one aspect ignoring the other.
I'm trying to show you ALL HINDUS AREN'T EVIL AND ALL SIKHS AREN'T GOOD? You just want me to feed your hatred veer ji. And I won't.
If you were showing that only, I would have applauded your words, stood by you but contrary to your this statement, you ignore crucial questions in context of fanatic Hindus, whatever is said about them, you take it as against all which is not fair and you have been doing it repeatedly. Fair people do not spare any group.
Continues
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[pk70]

Snister ji posted a video on a thread “Communist revolution”; see the pain on the faces of human rightists like Miss Roy and Mr Dante. That is called being fair, take no side and see only injustice and speak against it. When I hear any Sikh is going to kill innocents in the name of Sikhism, I don’t even think he is a Sikh; however, your tight-lipped policy towards fanatic Hindusis apparent. Period
hen it is appropriate to discuss failings of Hindutvaa
That day will never come. You just couldn’t say a word in agreement with my statement” Hindu fanatics are also playing dirty game as Sikh fanatics do” Conveying this kind of message I made many statements, you chose to remain tight-lipped.
DON'T SAY I DIDN'T WARN YOU THIS PATH OF PRAISING HOSTILITY AND BLAME OF HINDUS WAS WRONG AND DESTRUCTIVE. BUT YOU REFUSE TO SEE REASON. ANY TEACHING OF SEPARATISM AND HATE WILL LEAD TO ADHARMIC VIOLENCE AGAINST THE INNOCENT
You sound as if Sikhs suddenly have a dream of this path, started changing and took wrong path, forget one thing” clapping” needs both hands. I am not supporting separatist but Hindu fanatics are inflaming it, Political parties are a part of it. Here is my Sikh sister who sees only Sikhs hate all Hindus.

Centre probes threat to Hindu families

Stop riots, Shiv Sena chief warns Sikhs
How a majority can be in threat?
‘What this Shiv Sena does? Unite the country? What are you thinking?

STOP THE ANTI-HINDU HATE! What kind of definition of Sikhism is this?
Why haven’t you written “anti Sikh hate should also be stopped? You are coming from a great warrior family, what threat they were to those hateful whites? You and I fully understand what was behind all this. As they Invaded territory and called them bad, that is the exact strategy of Majority Hindu Govt. There was never a secular regime since independence of India, except close friends and families of Hindus; I have witnessed their nasty behavior towards turban wearing people. Still I don’t blame all Hindus.
Vedanti shown with Bhindranwale portrait installed in Harmandir Sahib Complex. What message does this send? Is this the desire for peace, reconciliation, dialogue and understanding
They have Shiv Sena, Bajaran Bali Dal and many others, if Sant Bhindrawale’s portrait is installed what is wrong with it. How do we know only Bhindra wala was at fault, Indra was too at fault, her pictures are every where, Rajeev Gandhi said at Sikhs genocide” When a big tree fall such thing happens” His pictures and statues are every where, why only Bhindrawale’s portrait will be a threat to India. These are just excuses, facts are different, and separatism is being inflamed to show others that Sikhs are terrorists. I appose separatist-stand as I see it is a foolish stand. What I see here is long continues discrimination in India against different kinds of people by majority of Hindus rulers, they burned Churches, they dismantle Mosque, you name it because they in are power. After having said that still I believe all Hindus are not in favor of this policy.

 

[Archived_Member_19]

dharamsal vich dharvi rahinde, thakur dware thug
vich maseet kusatti rahinde, aashik rahin alag

-Jugni , punjabi folk song

 

[Archived_Member_19]

here a very interesting snippet:

SGPC & Caste

Reservation in Management of Religious Shrines
The ‘practical consideration’ for reservation for the Sikh scheduled castes was not confined to the secular domain. By an amendment made in 1953 to the (Punjab) Sikh Gurdwaras Act 1925, a provision was made for reservation of 20 seats for scheduled castes Sikhs out of a total of 140 elected seats in the Shiromani Gurdwara Parbandhak Committee (SGPC). Further, a convention was adopted that the junior vice-president in the executive committee of the SGPC would be chosen from the scheduled castes. In the case of notified Sikh gurdwaras, not managed directly by the SGPC board, it was provided that in the five-member local managing committees, one member in each case will be chosen from the scheduled castes [Kashmir Singh 1989: 176, 182 and 188]. Representation to the scheduled castes in the management of Sikh shrines appeared to follow an affirmative principle. It also institutionalized the recognition of the lower castes in Sikh religion and in the management of religious affairs of the Sikh community.

 

[Archived_Member_19]

SGPC...the MIGHTY keeper and issuer of the " You are a Sikh" label :roll:

 

[sikh_13]

harjas kaur khalsa? well a misleading name - for sure

why are you hindus just trying to prove sikhs are hindus???

believe me - it makes no sense to real sikhs - and by the way ......

....... never has the numbers ruled - take example of sikhs, mughals, brits, americans or for that matter a lion in the jungle (when do sheeps rule - even if they are in a bigger herd)!

 

[Sevadar]

Wjkk, wjkf,

I don't know why is their so much fuss abt all the god referred names in SGGSji. Is Raam name was coined for the King Raam only? was there no word like raam before King raam got name raam, same goes for other names like vishnu, brahma, krishna etc... do anybody even prove that these name were never ever existed before these.
What I think is that these names had some values associated with them which is more important then looking at the name. I think their was word Nanak existent before Guru Nanak's parents named him Nanak.

Sabat da bhalla

 

[Ali hasan]

Re: Sikhism - Christianity - big differences !!

ਰਾਮਦਾਸ ਸੋਢੀ ਤਿਲਕੁ ਦੀਆ ਗੁਰ ਸਬਦੁ ਸਚੁ ਨੀਸਾਣੁ ਜੀਉ ॥੫॥
raamadhaas sodtee thilak dheeaa gur sabadh sach neesaan jeeo ||5||
The Guru then blessed the Sodhi Ram Das with the ceremonial tilak mark, the insignia of the True Word of the Shabad. ||5||
~Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Ji p. 923​

If Gurubani rejects the "essentials of Hindu" traditions, caste system, etc., why is Guruji Himself designated as belonging to a particular caste family and with the Tilak mark signifying Indic traditions and Hindu religion?
Please Bhain ji ,dont say I am following your posts, I have noticed you are throwing every thing in the name of Guru ji, it is big lie, and I really cannot appreciate lies. Above quote you took from Bani named Sad, written by Sundar ji where he just refers the family specially because there were others opposing Guru ship verbly to mislead Followers, so it is not more than that. Have you forgot Bhai Gurdas ji's declaration about Castes? That Shabad was recorded by Bhai Gurdass ji. How you can ignore Amrit being given from one pot regardless of the family Caste. As Baldev Singh is guessing, same way you are guessing. Guessers have no credibility. It may sound harsh but it is fact. You see nothing in Sikhism but Hinduism. Why you wrote here it is said by Guru, give me explanation? Or say sorry for leveling an an accusation against Guru ji who never ever claimed being Sodhi. You give quotes without knowing who wrote it and claim you have mastry who said what.. Do Hindu own tilik Is Tilak is measure to call Guru ji Hindu? Why all the time you ignore Guru BachanNa Ham Hindu Na Ham Muslmaan"? Every thing Guru ji specially addressed, you ignore then pick up one tuk from here another from there, then jump sand say" hey see what is written here" never even realized that quotes were already given against your accusations. Bhain ji it very sad, you can disrespect Guru ji and lie to promote your own views.

He alone is a Brahmin, who knows God.

He chants and meditates, and practices austerity and good deeds.

He keeps to the Dharma, with faith, humility and contentment

Breaking his bonds, he is liberated.

Such a Brahmin is worthy of being worshipped-SGGS PAGE1411

Hindu in sikh scriptures refers to brahmanical hinduism(which allied with shaktism in the neighboring kashmir) and not vaishnavism

 

[Ali hasan]

All jio,
kindly note down the distortion of Gurbani in context of Caste System which was bluntly rejected by Guru Sahiban, I am giving examples of distorted translation and the actual Guru Message( Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji). Kindly judge yourself how any one can undermine what Guru preached through out their lives.

Here is distorted translation
ਵਰਨਾਵਰਨ ਨ ਭਾਵਨੀ ਜੇ ਕਿਸੈ ਵਡਾ ਕਰੇਇ ॥
varanaa varan n bhaavanee jae kisai vaddaa karaee ||
One class of people does not like the other, when one has been made great.
~Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Ji p. 53
THE REAL MESSAGE
Varaanaa varan= upper and low classes, n bhaavaanee= don’t like, je= if, kissai= some one, vaddaa kreae= If He makes high/great
Means, no one can say if He likes low or high caste (Because, answer is in following Vaak which is omitted)
ਵਡੇ ਹਥਿ ਵਡਿਆਈਆ ਜੈ ਭਾਵੈ ਤੈ ਦੇਇ
Vadde= Lord, Hathh= in hands, Vaddeeaeea= greatness/reward of honor, jai bhavai= as it pleases HIM, tai= that way, dae= gives
All is in Lords to be given honor/greatness is in Lords’ hand, as it please He gives.

ALL SANGAT JEE PLEASE TELL ME HOW DOES THIS TUK SUPPORT CASTE SYSTEM?


Now lets see if the following Tuk supports caste system


ਪਤਿਤਜਾਤਿਉਤਮੁ ਭਇਆ ਚਾਰਿ ਵਰਨ ਪਏ ਪਗਿ ਆਇ ॥੨॥
pathith jaath outham bhaeiaa chaar varan peae pag aae ||2||
Although he was of low social status, he was exalted and elevated, and people of all four castes came and bowed at his feet. ||2||
~Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Ji p. 733
Lets analyze actually what Guru ji is saying, here is the complete Guru Vaak Mehl-4)

ਰਵਿਦਾਸੁ ਚਮਾਰੁ ਉਸਤਤਿ ਕਰੇ ਹਰਿ ਕੀਰਤਿ ਨਿਮਖ ਇਕ ਗਾਇ ॥ ਪਤਿਤ ਜਾਤਿ ਉਤਮੁ ਭਇਆ ਚਾਰਿ ਵਰਨ ਪਏ ਪਗਿ ਆਇ ॥੨॥
Chamaar= tanner, ustit= praise, Har kirt= Lord’s praise, namikh= every moment, gae= sing, Patit= low class, uttam bhaeea= became sublime, chaar varan= ( people of) all four castes , pagg= feet, pae aae= came and fell at
Ravidas, the tanner praised Lord every moment.( By doing so), even though he belonged to low class, he became sublime and all people of four castes fell at his feet.
How this Tuk quoted in support of Caste System, does support Caste system? Contrary to that wrong notion it says, it is not caste which is important but" Nam simran"

( Sources Dr Veer Singh ji, Bhai Kahan Singfh Ji, Freedkot wala Teeka of course as I see too)

sikhism discouraged the concept of varna.But it retained the concept of jati.It encouraged salvation for all

 

[Ali hasan]

Please see the following videos of you tube on RSS by Sikh organisations :
1 Tabhi Ros Jageo : Video on RSS by Sikhs
YouTube - Tabhe Ros Jageo - Sikh Documentary on RSS
2 . Hinduisation of Sikh history by RSS
YouTube - Hinduization of Sikh Faith By RSS - Sikh History
The biggest enemy of Sikhs in India is RSS ( BJP ) much bigger than Congress , BSP ( Mayawati ) or Leftists .

The biggest danger to the sikhs is their fear of getting amalgamated into hinduism.

 

[Ali hasan]

First of all, a thread which was comparing Sikhism to Hinduism was closed recently. This current thread: "Sikhism, Hinduism and Sanatan Dharam" Was NOT started by me as it is artificially made to appear which even I concede is antagonistic in its presentation. And hereby I refuse to participate in this thread for this reason:

1. a thread in which Sikh80 ji was asking questions about similarities in spiritual teachings was closed with disclaimer that it was disrespecting Sikh identity, also as a result of that thread a TOS was adopted by this website claiming that the mainstream view of Sikh idependant identity had not been respected.

So to artificially start a new thread, with this heading which again pits Sikh versus Hindu is just bound to be closed when I begin to answer objections and as my threads are already being deleted per the TOS agreement I see no purpose in continuing any response.


I wrote these initial threads in response to a specific claim from a posted article, which is no longer posted and hence, no longer in context. As to the attack against the sanatan views read in every single post thus far, on this artificial topic starter, which I did not start, but appears in my name propagandistically, alleging "lies" and talk about communal violence of Operation Bluestar, etc, have nothing to do with the original counter to the article which said, "Gurbani says Karma, devas, avtaaras, etc don't exist," and that Sikhism has no spiritual teachings which parallel what is found in Hindu teachings.

I did NOT start another topic thread begging to be closed. I have already written about caste system on another thread, and rewriting points on every closed thread is ridiculous. I never said Gurbani praised the caste system as we know it with corruptions and injustices. I said there were tuuks of Gurbani which show Guru has stated the caste/varna system was instituted by God. And I also said Gurbani says the caste system as a point of injustice is incorrect and Guru promotes "equality in the spiritual teachings."

So to attribute to me that I said Guruji believes in caste system as is modernly corrupted and unjust is the lie. The original caste/varna system per the Vedas was that anyone could be a brahmin, anyone could be a shudra, based on his behavior and attitude to God. the Manu Smrities institutionalized the hereditary discrimination. Both Vaishnav Hindu and Gurbani reject this, so don't impute that to my words. There remains the matter of why Sikhs have always been referred to by their caste surnames, even during times of Sikh misls, and why Gurbani refers to Guru using caste surname, and the fact that despite Sikhism being idealistically called a religion against caste system, it is one of the most caste conscious religions is a social-historical FACT which needs to be evaluated before someone like Dr. Baldev Singh, who wrote the initial article, uses caste system as some proof dividing Hindus from Sikhs. Again, I reiterate, Gurbani just like Vaishnav reform addresses caste varna system as whoever is devoted to God is the true brahmin, he who is corrupt is the shudra. So there is a spiritual teaching shared by both Hindus and Siks, how can you divide them by it? Why attribute to Hindus ONLY the worst excesses of caste system, when entire, influential segments of the Sikh community discriminate on basis of caste as well. And finally, why does Gurbani retain some references to original caste/varna system as instituted by the God and Sikh history from the beginning retaining tribal identities within Sikhs such as Jatt, Khatri, Ramgharia, Saini, etc?


From an evidentiary standpoint, it begs the legitimacy of Sikhism in idealism as realistically rejecting caste at all. Also the video diatribe against RSS is not called for at all, since the RSS is not the only sanatan organization, nor do my own views support the mischief of the RSS. Hence it isn't relevant to my rebuttal of Dr. Baldev Singh's article. But I do invite all of you to look at how you continually demonize the sanatan viewpoint against all reason as being "lies" "RSS Propaganda to destroy Sikh identity" and don't even look within Sikh sangat itself why THEY THEMSELVES continue to perpetuate the worst of caste system, or even in Harmandir Sahib refuse seva to ladies on basis of sex. First clean your own house before throwing stones at sanatan Sikhi.


It doesn't support the corrupted caste system you are trying to imply. The fact that caste system is mentioned in Gurbani as a social reality, indicates why historically within Sikhism, the caste system remianed a social reality.


Perhaps this was the intention of the moderators, to close a thread exploring relationship oif Sikhism to Hinduism, only to create a fake thread, taking posts out of context and in response to a specific article and make like I had posted some kind of challenge simply to inflame yourselves. This whole discussion is artificially contrived, intended to slant negatively, and pretending I had created it to challenge the prevailing views, when I was challenging the denial by Dr. Baldev Singh that karma, transmigration, avataars and devas are mentioned in Gurbani. And THAT was what my posts were about, to prove he was wrong, they are in fact mentioned. It was NOT an article trying to show that caste discrimination and worst corruptions are legitimate as the responding posts are implying. So I remove myself from this discussion and ask in fairness that you delete it as it creates a false impression that I had started an inflammatory thread much like the ones recently closed. Or perhaps the moderators are playing some game to get me banned from the site for disregarding their instructions, even though I did NOT start this thread, but was responding to a specific thread article which was not even carried over in context. WHY AREN'T MODERATORS BEING FAIR AND REASONABLE? WHY CREATE FALSE IMPRESSIONS LIKE THIS?

How dare you create a topic starter out of context in my name similar in topic to the threads you have just closed and deleted trying to justify banning me. You are worse than communists in propaganda.



Who is lying to promote what? Caste reform really started with Vaishnav Hindu saints. Sikhism continued practice of identifying tribes by caste and retaining caste surnames, not only before Maharaja Ranjit Singh but in Sikh misl times, and even Guru's were known by their caste surnames. When a scholar such as Dr. Baldev Singh claims falsely that Sikhism as a religion rejects caste, and is distinct from Hinduism because of it, credibility for its prevalence within Sikhism must be explored. Again I have already acknowledge on many threads that caste system is rejected as a basis of discrimination, but perhaps continued for social purposes. At least, because of the reality of caste system, and Gurbani seems to acknowledged that caste system DOES exist as an Indic social structure. Nowhere does Gurbani say caste system is rejected, only that spiritually all castes are made into brothers, very similar to Vaishnav caste reform. Sikh Misls fought between themselves along caste lines. Even conflict between Banda Singh Bahadur Ji's men was conflict between tribes alohng caste lines. So the entire Sikh history is permeated with caste, how can it be ignored in any reasonable study JUST because it's unpopular to acknowledge? Hence Dr. Singh's thesis that this is some point of departure between Sikhism and Hinduism is itself artificial and untrue.

Instead of everyone becoming emotional and denying the obvious, and attacking me personally, why aren't we validly examining the real Sikh history, and then promoting the authentic caste reform of both Vaishnavism and original intent of Sikhism, which I hardly doubt is the racist Jatt paat and Ramgharia Gurdwara mentality of today. Why is something like caste system always being used to DEMONIZE all Hindus and falsely praise all Sikhs who are often no different than those Hindus who DO discriminate on basis of caste unfairly? Let's be real was all I was saying.


And again on point of RSS videos, LOL, just follow my profile to find old posts where I too am bashing RSS Hindutva repeatedly over the Gujarat riots. Why lay fake blame like some juvenile persons to accuse me as being RSS, or try to equate my discussion of sanatan history within Sikhism and Gurbani as being associated with RSS propaganda? You don't need Arya Samaji's or RSS to show you Sikh history is very closely aligned with Hinduism for hundreds of years. Stop lying to yourselves.


Yet you do this to me, remove my comments relating to the other thread, and put them here, with your own title, but in my name to create some fake propaganda thread, with me a pretended poster. Make your own title threads with your own commentary. And then see if I want to participate in that discussion. Because I never wrote those threads in response to a topic starter or this title thread but in response to a VERY SPECIFIC article which isn't even here. Talk about spam. And I add, you claim my responses were unrelated to that other thread, yet were couched in DIRECT response to a QUOTE made in the first few sentences of the posted article, yet removed and placed here in some inflammatory context. WOW. Hypocrisy to the max. Thanks for the FAIR forum. And everyone attacking me as some kind of RSS agent, and all anyone has to do is go visit Jattworld to see what I'm talking about. Sikhism and Hinduism DON'T differ on basis of caste system, was my rebuttal to Dr. Singh's article... because SOME Hindus don't believe in it, and SOME SIkhs do! And SIKH HISTORY is FULL of it! So stop bashing me about it. Whether or not it agrees with your personal sentiments about Ideal Sikhism, it is still there in plain sight. As to analysis of WHY, then we are back to carefully looking at Gurbani and history. Just because Khalsa was one brotherhood DID NOT MEAN CASTE WAS IGNORED. IT REMAINED TRIBAL AFFILIATION AND SOCIAL TIE WITHIN SIKHISM FOR HUNDREDS OF YEARS. DON"T BLAME ME FOR IT.

This is horrible.What is the purpose of these forums and threads if free speech cannot be guaranteed!

 

[spnadmin]

This is horrible.What is the purpose of these forums and threads if free speech cannot be guaranteed!

ali hasan ji

I admire your replies to several earlier posts. Let me however clarify what has happened vis a vis your last reaction.

Free speech is never unconditional. Speech is conditioned by rules needed to protect civil interactions and on most Internet forums including this one those interactions are protected by Terms of Service. Without that discussions degenerate to what is typical on TOPIX.

The individual you quote above did not abide with our requirements after many requests. Any claim that Sikhism is a form of Hinduism that undermines the teachings of SSGS. A breach of TOS.

This is the short version of my take on the situation. More specific examples are available. They should not be needed at this time.