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Hinduism Sikhism, Hinduism and Sanatan Dharam

Discussion in 'Interfaith Dialogues' started by Harjas Kaur Khalsa, Aug 4, 2008.

  1. Harjas Kaur Khalsa

    Harjas Kaur Khalsa
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    Okay let's analyze if this is also true in Gurbani.


    (ਵਰਨਾ), Vaarana: caste, color.

    ਵਰਨਾ ਵਰਨ ਨ ਭਾਵਨੀ ਜੇ ਕਿਸੈ ਵਡਾ ਕਰੇਇ ॥
    varanaa varan n bhaavanee jae kisai vaddaa karaee ||
    One class of people does not like the other, when one has been made great.
    ~SGGS Ji p. 53


    (ਜਾਤਿ ਪਤਿ), Jaath path: social status, class, honor.

    ਪਤਿਤ ਜਾਤਿ ਉਤਮੁ ਭਇਆ ਚਾਰਿ ਵਰਨ ਪਏ ਪਗਿ ਆਇ ॥੨॥
    pathith jaath outham bhaeiaa chaar varan peae pag aae ||2||
    Although he was of low social status, he was exalted and elevated, and people of all four castes came and bowed at his feet. ||2||
    ~SGGS Ji p. 733



    The question is, does Gurbani reject the "Hindu" caste system?

    ਕੁਲਿ ਸੋਢੀ ਗੁਰ ਰਾਮਦਾਸ ਤਨੁ ਧਰਮ ਧੁਜਾ ਅਰਜੁਨੁ ਹਰਿ ਭਗਤਾ ॥੬॥
    kul sodtee gur raamadhaas than dhharam dhhujaa arajun har bhagathaa ||6||
    In the Sodhi family, is born Arjun, the son of Guru Raam Daas, the holder of the banner of Dharma and the devotee of God. ||6||
    ~SGGS Ji p. 1407


    ਰਾਮਦਾਸ ਸੋਢੀ ਤਿਲਕੁ ਦੀਆ ਗੁਰ ਸਬਦੁ ਸਚੁ ਨੀਸਾਣੁ ਜੀਉ ॥੫॥
    raamadhaas sodtee thilak dheeaa gur sabadh sach neesaan jeeo ||5||
    The Guru then blessed the Sodhi Ram Das with the ceremonial tilak mark, the insignia of the True Word of the Shabad. ||5||
    ~SGGS Ji p. 923


    If Gurubani rejects the "essentials of Hindu" traditions, caste system, etc., why is Guruji Himself designated as belonging to a particular caste family and with the Tilak mark signifying Indic traditions and Hindu religion?

    Caste reform really starts with Vaishnav Hindu saints, such as Ramanuja (1017–1137), with his and promotion of a spiritual philosophy of equality which accepted all castes as spiritual equals. As Guru Nanak Dev Ji (1469-1539), was much later, the reforms of caste equality in regards to spiritual teaching, admittance of women and Muslims and langar-style free kitchens was a feature of Vaishnavism in Indian society.


    "Does the wearing of a sacred thread make one a Brahmin? One who is devoted to God (Narayana) alone is a Brahmin." ~Shri Ramanuja
    Cited from Sri Ramanuja, His Life, Religion, and Philosophy, published by Sri Ramakrishna Math, Chennai, India.

    ਸੋ ਬ੍ਰਾਹਮਣੁ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਜੋ ਬਿੰਦੇ ਹਰਿ ਸੇਤੀ ਰੰਗਿ ਰਾਤਾ ॥
    so braahaman breham jo bindhae har saethee rang raathaa ||
    He alone is a Brahmin, who knows the Lord Brahma, and is attuned to the Love of the Lord.
    ~SGGS Ji p. 68​



    Apart from clarifying spiritual equality, like the Vaishnav Hindu reformers did, Gurbani does NOT say Guruji rejected the caste system. So there is nothing in Gurbani which supports the statement: " "According to AGGS, Guru Nanak rejected all the essentials of Hinduism:...caste system." So per Gurbani, this too is false.


    ਖਤ੍ਰੀ ਬ੍ਰਾਹਮਣ ਸੂਦ ਵੈਸ ਉਪਦੇਸੁ ਚਹੁ ਵਰਨਾ ਕਉ ਸਾਝਾ ॥
    khathree braahaman soodh vais oupadhaes chahu varanaa ko saajhaa ||
    The four castes - the Kh'shaatriyas, Brahmins, Soodras and Vaishyas - are equal in respect to the teachings.
    ~SGGS Ji p. 747​



    ਚਾਰਿ ਬਰਨ ਚਾਰਿ ਆਸ੍ਰਮ ਹੈ ਕੋਈ ਮਿਲੈ ਗੁਰੂ ਗੁਰ ਨਾਨਕ ਸੋ ਆਪਿ ਤਰੈ ਕੁਲ ਸਗਲ ਤਰਾਧੋ ॥੨॥੫॥੧੧॥
    chaar baran chaar aasram hai koee milai guroo gur naanak so aap tharai kul sagal tharaadhho ||2||5||11||
    There are four castes, four social classes, and four stages of life. Whoever meets the Guru, Guru Nanak, is himself carried across, and he carries all his ancestors and generations across as well. ||2||5||11||
    ~SGGS Ji p. 1297​



    ਗਾਵਹਿ ਗੁਣ ਬਰਨ ਚਾਰਿ ਖਟ ਦਰਸਨ ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾਦਿਕ ਸਿਮਰੰਥਿ ਗੁਨਾ ॥
    gaavehi gun baran chaar khatt dharasan brehamaadhik simaranthh gunaa ||
    The four castes and the six Shaastras sing His Glorious Praises; Brahma and the others contemplate His Virtues.
    ~SGGS Ji p. 1390​


    ਸੋ ਐਸਾ ਹਰਿ ਸਭਨਾ ਕਾ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਕੈ ਵਲਿ ਹੈ ਤਿਨਿ ਸਭਿ ਵਰਨ ਚਾਰੇ ਖਾਣੀ ਸਭ ਸ੍ਰਿਸਟਿ ਗੋਲੇ ਕਰਿ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਅਗੈ ਕਾਰ ਕਮਾਵਣ ਕਉ ਦੀਏ ॥
    so aisaa har sabhanaa kaa prabh sathigur kai val hai thin sabh varan chaarae khaanee sabh srisatt golae kar sathigur agai kaar kamaavan ko dheeeae ||
    Such is God, the Lord of all; He is on the True Guru's side. All castes and social classes, the four sources of creation, and the whole universe are slaves of the True Guru; God makes them work for Him.
    ~SGGS Ji p. 851​



    ਬ੍ਰਾਹਮਣੁ ਖਤ੍ਰੀ ਸੂਦ ਵੈਸ ਚਾਰਿ ਵਰਨ ਚਾਰਿ ਆਸ੍ਰਮ ਹਹਿ ਜੋ ਹਰਿ ਧਿਆਵੈ ਸੋ ਪਰਧਾਨੁ ॥
    braahaman khathree soodh vais chaar varan chaar aasram hehi jo har dhhiaavai so paradhhaan ||
    There are four castes: Brahmin, Kh'shaatriya, Soodra and Vaishya, and there are four stages of life. One who meditates on the Lord, is the most distinguished and renowned.
    ~SGGS Ji p. 861​



    ~Bhul chak maaf
     
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  3. Harjas Kaur Khalsa

    Harjas Kaur Khalsa
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    Re: Sikhism - Christianity - big differences !!



    And if we are to question the Tilak on Guru Ramdas Ji as being for Hindu religious purposes, as He was being installed as King and Guru, but also what God did He worship?

    ਸੁੰਦਰ ਕੁੰਡਲ ਮੁਕਟ ਬੈਨ ॥
    sundhar kunddal mukatt bain ||
    His ear-rings, crown and flute are so beautiful.

    ਸੰਖ ਚਕ੍ਰ ਗਦਾ ਹੈ ਧਾਰੀ ਮਹਾ ਸਾਰਥੀ ਸਤਸੰਗਾ ॥੧੦॥
    sankh chakr gadhaa hai dhhaaree mehaa saarathhee sathasangaa ||10||
    He carries the conch, the chakra and the war club; He is the Great Charioteer, who stays with His Saints. ||10||

    ਪੀਤ ਪੀਤੰਬਰ ਤ੍ਰਿਭਵਣ ਧਣੀ ॥
    peeth peethanbar thribhavan dhhanee ||
    The Lord of yellow robes, the Master of the three worlds.

    ਜਗੰਨਾਥੁ ਗੋਪਾਲੁ ਮੁਖਿ ਭਣੀ ॥
    jagannaathh gopaal mukh bhanee ||
    The Lord of the Universe, the Lord of the world; with my mouth, I chant His Name.
    ~SGGS Ji p. 1082



    ਸੰਖ ਚਕ੍ਰ ਗਦਾ ਪਦਮ ਆਪਿ ਆਪੁ ਕੀਓ ਛਦਮ ਅਪਰੰਪਰ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਲਖੈ ਕਉਨੁ ਤਾਹਿ ਜੀਉ ॥
    sankh chakr gadhaa padham aap aap keeou shhadham aparanpar paarabreham lakhai koun thaahi jeeo ||
    You are the Infinite Supreme Lord God; with your conch, chakr, war club (altered to say: symbols of power), You deceived Baliraja; who can know You?
    ~SGGS Ji p. 1402


    So who is this God with the wheel (chakr), mace and conch who is clearly described and refered to in Gurbani as Parabrahm (nirgun Supreme), and Jaggannath Gopal?

    Govinda and Gopāla are names of Krishna, referring to his youthful occupation as a cowherd.

    Both names translate to "cowherd". Sanskrit go means "cow"; pāla and vinda form tatpurusha compounds, literally translating to "finder of cows" and "protector of cows", respectively.

    The story of how Krishna was given the name Govinda is described in detail in the Vishnu Purana. After lifting Govardhan hill to protect the villagers and cows of Vrindavan, the lord of devas Indra awarded him the title.



    ਨਿਰਾਹਾਰੀ ਨਿਰਵੈਰੁ ਸਮਾਇਆ ॥
    niraahaaree niravair samaaeiaa ||
    He is beyond need of any sustenance, free of hate and all-pervading.

    ਧਾਰਿ ਖੇਲੁ ਚਤੁਰਭੁਜੁ ਕਹਾਇਆ ॥
    dhhaar khael chathurabhuj kehaaeiaa ||
    He has staged His play; He is called the four-armed Lord.

    ਸਾਵਲ ਸੁੰਦਰ ਰੂਪ ਬਣਾਵਹਿ ਬੇਣੁ ਸੁਨਤ ਸਭ ਮੋਹੈਗਾ ॥੯॥
    saaval sundhar roop banaavehi baen sunath sabh mohaigaa ||9||
    He assumed the beautiful form of the blue-skinned Krishna; hearing His flute, all are fascinated.
    ~SGGS Ji p. 1082


    [​IMG] [​IMG]
    Vishnu and Gopala Krishna


    ਹਿੰਦੂ ਸਾਲਾਹੀ ਸਾਲਾਹਨਿ ਦਰਸਨਿ ਰੂਪਿ ਅਪਾਰੁ ॥
    hindhoo saalaahee saalaahan dharasan roop apaar ||
    The Hindus praise the Praiseworthy Lord; the Blessed Vision of His Darshan, His form is incomparable.

    ਤੀਰਥਿ ਨਾਵਹਿ ਅਰਚਾ ਪੂਜਾ ਅਗਰ ਵਾਸੁ ਬਹਕਾਰੁ ॥
    theerathh naavehi arachaa poojaa agar vaas behakaar ||
    They bathe at sacred shrines of pilgrimage, making offerings of flowers, and burning incense before idols.

    ਜੋਗੀ ਸੁੰਨਿ ਧਿਆਵਨ੍ਹ੍ਹਿ ਜੇਤੇ ਅਲਖ ਨਾਮੁ ਕਰਤਾਰੁ ॥
    jogee sunn dhhiaavanih jaethae alakh naam karathaar ||
    The Yogis meditate on the absolute Lord there; they call the Creator the Unseen Lord.
    ~SGGS Ji p. 465​



    And while adressing corruptions of superficial, hypocritical and insincere religious worship, Gurbani also states:


    ਹਿੰਦੂ ਮੂਲੇ ਭੂਲੇ ਅਖੁਟੀ ਜਾਂਹੀ ॥
    hindhoo moolae bhoolae akhuttee jaanhee ||
    The Hindus have forgotten the Primal Lord; they are going the wrong way.

    ਨਾਰਦਿ ਕਹਿਆ ਸਿ ਪੂਜ ਕਰਾਂਹੀ ॥ਅੰਧੇ ਗੁੰਗੇ ਅੰਧ ਅੰਧਾਰੁ ॥
    naaradh kehiaa s pooj karaanhee || andhhae gungae andhh andhhaar ||
    As Naarad instructed them, they are worshipping idols. They are blind and mute, the blindest of the blind.

    ਪਾਥਰੁ ਲੇ ਪੂਜਹਿ ਮੁਗਧ ਗਵਾਰ ॥
    paathhar lae poojehi mugadhh gavaar ||
    The ignorant fools pick up stones and worship them.

    ਓਹਿ ਜਾ ਆਪਿ ਡੁਬੇ ਤੁਮ ਕਹਾ ਤਰਣਹਾਰੁ ॥੨॥
    ouhi jaa aap ddubae thum kehaa tharanehaar ||2||
    But when those stones themselves sink, who will carry you across? ||2||
    ~SGGS Ji p. 556​



    On balance, while considering many Gurbani tuuks which talk about devi, devtas, and idol worship, it is clear Guruji's message did NOT reject deva, devti as is falsely claimed, nor did Guruji completely reject idols, as there is acceptance of those who praise the praiseworthy Lord, while rejection of those who only worship the superficial stones themselves.


    ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਨਾਦੰ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਵੇਦੰ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਰਹਿਆ ਸਮਾਈ ॥
    guramukh naadhan guramukh vaedhan guramukh rehiaa samaaee ||
    The Guru's Word is the Sound-current of the Naad; the Guru's Word is the Wisdom of the Vedas; the Guru's Word is all-pervading.

    ਗੁਰੁ ਈਸਰੁ ਗੁਰੁ ਗੋਰਖੁ ਬਰਮਾ ਗੁਰੁ ਪਾਰਬਤੀ ਮਾਈ ॥
    gur eesar gur gorakh baramaa gur paarabathee maaee ||
    The Guru is Shiva, the Guru is Vishnu and Brahma; the Guru is Paarvati and Lakhshmi.

    ਜੇ ਹਉ ਜਾਣਾ ਆਖਾ ਨਾਹੀ ਕਹਣਾ ਕਥਨੁ ਨ ਜਾਈ ॥
    jae ho jaanaa aakhaa naahee kehanaa kathhan n jaaee ||
    Even knowing God, I cannot describe Him; He cannot be described in words.
    ~SGGS Ji p. 2​



    Clearly Gurbani describes the Guru-God in terms of devi, devtas and also Vedas fully illustrating confidence the Indic Hindu structure of worship and salvation (means to attain the God).

    ~Bhul chak maaf
     
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  4. pk70

    pk70
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    Re: Sikhism - Christianity - big differences !!

    ਰਾਮਦਾਸ ਸੋਢੀ ਤਿਲਕੁ ਦੀਆ ਗੁਰ ਸਬਦੁ ਸਚੁ ਨੀਸਾਣੁ ਜੀਉ ॥੫॥
    raamadhaas sodtee thilak dheeaa gur sabadh sach neesaan jeeo ||5||
    The Guru then blessed the Sodhi Ram Das with the ceremonial tilak mark, the insignia of the True Word of the Shabad. ||5||
    ~SGGS Ji p. 923
    If Gurubani rejects the "essentials of Hindu" traditions, caste system, etc., why is Guruji Himself designated as belonging to a particular caste family and with the Tilak mark signifying Indic traditions and Hindu religion?
    Please Bhain ji ,dont say I am following your posts, I have noticed you are throwing every thing in the name of Guru ji, it is big lie, and I really cannot appreciate lies. Above quote you took from Bani named Sad, written by Sundar ji where he just refers the family specially because there were others opposing Guru ship verbly to mislead Followers, so it is not more than that. Have you forgot Bhai Gurdas ji's declaration about Castes? That Shabad was recorded by Bhai Gurdass ji. How you can ignore Amrit being given from one pot regardless of the family Caste. As Baldev Singh is guessing, same way you are guessing. Guessers have no credibility. It may sound harsh but it is fact. You see nothing in Sikhism but Hinduism. Why you wrote here it is said by Guru, give me explanation? Or say sorry for leveling an an accusation against Guru ji who never ever claimed being Sodhi. You give quotes without knowing who wrote it and claim you have mastry who said what.. Do Hindu own tilik Is Tilak is measure to call Guru ji Hindu? Why all the time you ignore Guru Bachan" Na Ham Hindu Na Ham Muslmaan"? Every thing Guru ji specially addressed, you ignore then pick up one tuk from here another from there, then jump sand say" hey see what is written here" never even realized that quotes were already given against your accusations. Bhain ji it very sad, you can disrespect Guru ji and lie to promote your own views.
     
  5. pk70

    pk70
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    Re: Sikhism - Christianity - big differences !!

    ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਨਾਦੰ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਵੇਦੰ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਰਹਿਆ ਸਮਾਈ ॥
    guramukh naadhan guramukh vaedhan guramukh rehiaa samaaee ||
    The Guru's Word is the Sound-current of the Naad; the Guru's Word is the Wisdom of the Vedas; the Guru's Word is all-pervading.

    ਗੁਰੁ ਈਸਰੁ ਗੁਰੁ ਗੋਰਖੁ ਬਰਮਾ ਗੁਰੁ ਪਾਰਬਤੀ ਮਾਈ ॥
    gur eesar gur gorakh baramaa gur paarabathee maaee ||
    The Guru is Shiva, the Guru is Vishnu and Brahma; the Guru is Paarvati and Lakhshmi.

    ਜੇ ਹਉ ਜਾਣਾ ਆਖਾ ਨਾਹੀ ਕਹਣਾ ਕਥਨੁ ਨ ਜਾਈ ॥
    jae ho jaanaa aakhaa naahee kehanaa kathhan n jaaee ||
    Even knowing God, I cannot describe Him; He cannot be described in words.
    ~SGGS Ji p. 2

    Well Bhain ji, What the above quote says? No need to follow Hindu strucure of religion because Guru is enough to guide. It is not praising Hinduism, it says to the followers to stick to Guru.
     
  6. pk70

    pk70
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    Re: Sikhism - Christianity - big differences !!

    ਨਿਰਾਹਾਰੀ ਨਿਰਵੈਰੁ ਸਮਾਇਆ ॥
    niraahaaree niravair samaaeiaa ||
    He is beyond need of any sustenance, free of hate and all-pervading.

    ਧਾਰਿ ਖੇਲੁ ਚਤੁਰਭੁਜੁ ਕਹਾਇਆ ॥
    dhhaar khael chathurabhuj kehaaeiaa ||
    He has staged His play; He is called the four-armed Lord.

    ਸਾਵਲ ਸੁੰਦਰ ਰੂਪ ਬਣਾਵਹਿ ਬੇਣੁ ਸੁਨਤ ਸਭ ਮੋਹੈਗਾ ॥੯॥
    saaval sundhar roop banaavehi baen sunath sabh mohaigaa ||9||
    He assumed the beautiful form of the blue-skinned Krishna; hearing His flute, all are fascinated.
    ~SGGS Ji p. 1082

    Alright, His Sargun Sroop is being discussed but in Sargun Sroop all what we see also comes, how these guys have become special Bhainji. Gurbani also says about them that HE created like them in millions, where do they stand then?
    ਕੋਟਿ ਬਿਸਨ ਕੀਨੇ ਅਵਤਾਰ ਕੋਟਿ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੰਡ ਜਾ ਕੇ ਧ੍ਰਮਸਾਲ ਕੋਟਿ ਮਹੇਸ ਉਪਾਇ ਸਮਾਏ ਕੋਟਿ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੇ ਜਗੁ ਸਾਜਣ ਲਾਏ
    Bhairo 5th Guru. He created millions of incarnations of Vishnu. He who has millions of solar systems as places to practise virtue. He created and destroyed millions of Shivas. He has employed myriads of Brahmas to create the universes.
     
  7. pk70

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    Re: Sikhism - Christianity - big differences !!

    And if we are to question the Tilak on Guru Ramdas Ji as being for Hindu religious purposes, as He was being installed as King and Guru, but also what God did He worship?

    Please read His Gurbani, it will become what he believe in, let me quote one of Guru Ram Das ji's Shabad about his faith, did he borrow from Hindus or just interpretted Guru Nanak's God as his.?
    ਭੈਰਉ ਮਹਲਾ ਸਭਿ ਘਟ ਤੇਰੇ ਤੂ ਸਭਨਾ ਮਾਹਿ ਤੁਝ ਤੇ ਬਾਹਰਿ ਕੋਈ ਨਾਹਿ ॥੧॥
    Bhairo 4th Guru. O God, all the hearts are Thine and Thou abide amongst all. There is naught that is without Thee.
    ਹਰਿ ਸੁਖਦਾਤਾ ਮੇਰੇ ਮਨ ਜਾਪੁ ਹਉ ਤੁਧੁ ਸਾਲਾਹੀ ਤੂ ਮੇਰਾ ਹਰਿ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਬਾਪੁ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ O my soul, mediate thou on the peace-giving God. I praise Thee. Thou are my God Lord, my Father. Pause.
    ਜਹ ਜਹ ਦੇਖਾ ਤਹ ਹਰਿ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਸੋਇ ਸਭ ਤੇਰੈ ਵਸਿ ਦੂਜਾ ਅਵਰੁ ਕੋਇ ॥੨॥ Wheresoever I see, there I see the Lord God alone. All are under Thine sway, There is not any other second,
    ਜਿਸ ਕਉ ਤੁਮ ਹਰਿ ਰਾਖਿਆ ਭਾਵੈ ਤਿਸ ਕੈ ਨੇੜੈ ਕੋਇ ਜਾਵੈ ॥੩॥ Whomsoever, Thou want to save, O Lord, near him no one can come (is not harmed by anyone).

    ਤੂ ਜਲਿ ਥਲਿ ਮਹੀਅਲਿ ਸਭ ਤੈ ਭਰਪੂਰਿ ਜਨ ਨਾਨਕ ਹਰਿ ਜਪਿ ਹਾਜਰਾ ਹਜੂਰਿ ॥੪॥੪॥
    O Lord, Thou are fully-filling the water, the dry land, under-world, sky and all places. O slave Nanak, contemplate thou thy ever-present Lord.
     
    #6 pk70, Aug 5, 2008
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  8. pk70

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    Re: Sikhism - Christianity - big differences !!

    ਹਿੰਦੂ ਮੂਲੇ ਭੂਲੇ ਅਖੁਟੀ ਜਾਂਹੀ ॥
    hindhoo moolae bhoolae akhuttee jaanhee ||
    The Hindus have forgotten the Primal Lord; they are going the wrong way.

    ਨਾਰਦਿ ਕਹਿਆ ਸਿ ਪੂਜ ਕਰਾਂਹੀ ॥ਅੰਧੇ ਗੁੰਗੇ ਅੰਧ ਅੰਧਾਰੁ ॥
    naaradh kehiaa s pooj karaanhee || andhhae gungae andhh andhhaar ||
    As Naarad instructed them, they are worshipping idols. They are blind and mute, the blindest of the blind.

    ਪਾਥਰੁ ਲੇ ਪੂਜਹਿ ਮੁਗਧ ਗਵਾਰ ॥
    paathhar lae poojehi mugadhh gavaar ||
    The ignorant fools pick up stones and worship them.

    ਓਹਿ ਜਾ ਆਪਿ ਡੁਬੇ ਤੁਮ ਕਹਾ ਤਰਣਹਾਰੁ ॥੨॥
    ouhi jaa aap ddubae thum kehaa tharanehaar ||2||
    But when those stones themselves sink, who will carry you across? ||2||
    ~SGGS Ji p. 556

    Bhain ji, above Guru Vaak also states that Sikhs do not need Hinduism at all. As it declares what they do is not right, who is already lost what others can learn from those lost ones; that is the other request we cry loud, please leave us alone. If some Hindus, go deep into the wisdom expressed in their scriptures, good for them. There are some but most of them still in the same positions as Guru Vaak says. A lot of Sikhs are also in that kind of quogmire, so it comes down to who practice religions correctly; that is another reason Sikhism says what ever you are , Hindu or Muslim, be sincere towards HIM, does this Hinduism say so?
     
    #7 pk70, Aug 5, 2008
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2008
  9. spnadmin

    spnadmin United States
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    Posts in this thread were moved from Sikhism - Christianity - big differences!! Keep it tight. Keep it cool.
     
  10. Astroboy

    Astroboy Malaysia
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    ਨਾਮ ਤੇਰੇ ਕੀ ਜੋਤਿ ਲਗਾਈ (Previously namjap)
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    'Bluestar was most traumatic, most painful'

    Let the Sikhs protect themselves and their families from the tyranny of political agenda.
    How sure are we that the Indian govt doesn't want to wipe out and marginalise the minorities ?
    Isn't it already hapenning ?
    What challenge can sikhs with swords make against outnumbered by Indian Military with sophisticated weapons ?
    When there is no way out, fight till the end. Why was Bhindrawala wanted by police ?
    Why was he termed a terrorist ?
    What motivated him to do what he did ?

    3 Races stand out in India - Hindu, Muslims and Sikhs.
    Hindus hold the power because they are the majority.
    How many Sikhs are leaving the country for better opportunity and fairness overseas, compared to Hindus and Muslims ?

    Was Indra Gandhi mind-conditioned by her father's view of Sikhs ?
    http://srec.gurmat.info/srecarticles/treatmentmetedouttosikhsinindia.html
     
    #9 Astroboy, Aug 5, 2008
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2008
  11. spnadmin

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    NamJap ji,

    May I stand behind your opinion expressed here. Each day I remind myself in ardaas that Sikhs are the children of martyrs. If born into Sikhism, and most likely of Punjabi descent, then we are children of martyrs genetically and culturally. If converted to Sikhism, then we are the spiritual children of these same people. Thank you for bringing this to mind once again today for me. :) Reminding me once again where I come from.
     
  12. pk70

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    All jio,
    kindly note down the distortion of Gurbani in context of Caste System which was bluntly rejected by Guru Sahiban, I am giving examples of distorted translation and the actual Guru Message( SGGS). Kindly judge yourself how any one can undermine what Guru preached through out their lives.

    Here is distorted translation
    ਵਰਨਾ ਵਰਨ ਨ ਭਾਵਨੀ ਜੇ ਕਿਸੈ ਵਡਾ ਕਰੇਇ
    varanaa varan n bhaavanee jae kisai vaddaa karaee ||
    One class of people does not like the other, when one has been made great.
    ~SGGS Ji p. 53

    THE REAL MESSAGE
    Varaanaa varan= upper and low classes, n bhaavaanee= don’t like, je= if, kissai= some one, vaddaa kreae= If He makes high/great
    Means, no one can say if He likes low or high caste (Because, answer is in following Vaak which is omitted)
    ਵਡੇ ਹਥਿ ਵਡਿਆਈਆ ਜੈ ਭਾਵੈ ਤੈ ਦੇਇ
    Vadde= Lord, Hathh= in hands, Vaddeeaeea= greatness/reward of honor, jai bhavai= as it pleases HIM, tai= that way, dae= gives
    All is in Lords to be given honor/greatness is in Lords’ hand, as it please He gives.

    ALL SANGAT JEE PLEASE TELL ME HOW DOES THIS TUK SUPPORT CASTE SYSTEM?


    Now lets see if the following Tuk supports caste system


    ਪਤਿਤ ਜਾਤਿ ਉਤਮੁ ਭਇਆ ਚਾਰਿ ਵਰਨ ਪਏ ਪਗਿ ਆਇ
    pathith jaath outham bhaeiaa chaar varan peae pag aae ||2||
    Although he was of low social status, he was exalted and elevated, and people of all four castes came and bowed at his feet. ||2||
    ~SGGS Ji p. 733

    Lets analyze actually what Guru ji is saying, here is the complete Guru Vaak Mehl-4)

    ਰਵਿਦਾਸੁ ਚਮਾਰੁ ਉਸਤਤਿ ਕਰੇ ਹਰਿ ਕੀਰਤਿ ਨਿਮਖ ਇਕ ਗਾਇ ਪਤਿਤ ਜਾਤਿ ਉਤਮੁ ਭਇਆ ਚਾਰਿ ਵਰਨ ਪਏ ਪਗਿ ਆਇ
    Chamaar= tanner, ustit= praise, Har kirt= Lord’s praise, namikh= every moment, gae= sing, Patit= low class, uttam bhaeea= became sublime, chaar varan= ( people of) all four castes , pagg= feet, pae aae= came and fell at
    Ravidas, the tanner praised Lord every moment.( By doing so), even though he belonged to low class, he became sublime and all people of four castes fell at his feet.
    How this Tuk quoted in support of Caste System, does support Caste system? Contrary to that wrong notion it says, it is not caste which is important but" Nam simran"

    ( Sources Dr Veer Singh ji, Bhai Kahan Singfh Ji, Freedkot wala Teeka of course as I see too)
     
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  13. Huck_Finn

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  14. dalbirk

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    Dear Harjas Bhainji ,
    This is for ur information . I recently came across these old articles carrying old news . These r as follows :
    1. A circular carrying signatures of SSP Lucknow , B B Bakshi bearing no S.T / S.S.P 32/2001/4140 issued in May , 2001 orders his subordinates that they should preapre aregister of Sikhs & Muslims families living in their areas & keep an eye on their activities . In the circular it has been strictly instructed that Muslims & Sikhs whether living in poor slums or rich colonies , they should be watched very strictly .
    In another instruction , district magistrates have been asked to prepare a list of properties either bought or leased plots , lands & houses . In instruction no 13 it has been mentiones that Sikhs visiting Nanak Mata Gurudwara & Pakistan Gurudwaras should be kept under watch , their lists prepared & informations reagrding them be given to police chiefs .
    The ex-servicemen also have been made suspicious by BJP Govt . About them instruction has been given that lists of people retired after service in Army , Navy & Air Force soldiers should be prepared .
    The ruling Govt in the state of UP at that time was BJP ( RSS ) under Rajnath Singh , I suppose the present National Party President of BJP .
    2 . The second news is also from the BJP ( RSS ) ruled state of Madhya Pradesh in ( Dainik Jagran 06/03/2002 , Guna Edition ) . Actually events happened like this . Some Dalits ( Hindu ) of some villages in Guna district of MP converted to Sikhism by partaking Amrit . Seeing them many more Dalits got encouraged to convert to Sikhism . These events turned important when some news papers belonging to Elite Hindus published the news in such dramatic manner that as if they had unravelled some Anti- National deed being done secretly : " .... this thing should be kept in mind that in some villages of Arone & Ashok Nagar tehsils religious conversions were taking place . The Dalit people living here were converting to Sikh religion . So for this not only they had grown their head & facial hair , but they had taken Amrit according to the Sikh Religion & had adopted the customs of this religion . Uptill now this conversion was taking place secretly but suddenly this matter was reported in news paper headlines . When the matter was made public immediately the authorities swinged into action .... " ( Dainik Jagran , Dt 06/03/2002 , Guna Edition )
    What the administrating authorities did by swinging in action has been narrated by local Sikhs . According to them the police of Aaron Tehsil , Sarpanches of Villages , Tehsildars , Patwari & other adminstrating staff went to the village of Dalits convering to Sikhs . These newly converted Sikhs were gathered at one place , firstly their pictures were clicked then they were threatened to cut their hair & leave Sikhism or face dire consequences . These newly converted Sikhs refused to comply with their orders , then in front of everybody beat up Puran Singh son of Shiv Lal mercilessly . Even then when he did not agree to cut his hair , the local police took him to the police station in a jeep . There he was again mercilessly beaten , his kakaars taken & he was relaesed aften threatening him of dire consequences if he did not cut his hair & leave Sikhism . After this other converted Sikhs were also threatened in same way . More so , they were threated to get Govt aid stopped & their properties confiscated . Three Sikhs gave up & returned to Hinduism , rest of them pleaded for help to local Singh Sabha . That Singh Sabha has tried to get this issue addressed by writing to all Panthic institutions as well as talking to local media , but their efforts don't seem to be bearing fruit .....
    ( With thanks from Sikh Phulwari , June , 2002 Edition )
     
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  15. Astroboy

    Astroboy Malaysia
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    Here's another Gurbani Tuk that shows you, even before Sikhism came into existence that God does not support the caste system. God is our True Guru, not Vedas nor Puranas :-

    ਹਸਤ ਖੇਲਤ ਤੇਰੇ ਦੇਹੁਰੇ ਆਇਆ
    हसत खेलत तेरे देहुरे आइआ ॥
    Hasaṯ kẖėlaṯ ṯėrė ḏėhurė ā*i*ā.
    Laughing and playing, I came to Your Temple, O Lord.
    ਭਗਤਿ ਕਰਤ ਨਾਮਾ ਪਕਰਿ ਉਠਾਇਆ ॥੧॥
    भगति करत नामा पकरि उठाइआ ॥१॥
    Bẖagaṯ karaṯ nāmā pakar uṯẖā*i*ā. ||1||
    While Naam Dayv was worshipping, he was grabbed and driven out. ||1||
    ਹੀਨੜੀ ਜਾਤਿ ਮੇਰੀ ਜਾਦਿਮ ਰਾਇਆ
    हीनड़ी जाति मेरी जादिम राइआ ॥
    Hīnṛī jāṯ mėrī jāḏim rā*i*ā.
    I am of a low social class, O Lord;
    ਛੀਪੇ ਕੇ ਜਨਮਿ ਕਾਹੇ ਕਉ ਆਇਆ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ
    छीपे के जनमि काहे कउ आइआ ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥
    Cẖẖīpė kė janam kāhė ka*o ā*i*ā. ||1|| rahā*o.
    why was I born into a family of fabric dyers? ||1||Pause||
    ਲੈ ਕਮਲੀ ਚਲਿਓ ਪਲਟਾਇ
    लै कमली चलिओ पलटाइ ॥
    Lai kamlī cẖali*o paltā*ė.
    I picked up my blanket and went back,
    ਦੇਹੁਰੈ ਪਾਛੈ ਬੈਠਾ ਜਾਇ ॥੨॥
    देहुरै पाछै बैठा जाइ ॥२॥
    Ḏėhurai pācẖẖai baiṯẖā jā*ė. ||2||
    to sit behind the temple. ||2||
    ਜਿਉ ਜਿਉ ਨਾਮਾ ਹਰਿ ਗੁਣ ਉਚਰੈ
    जिउ जिउ नामा हरि गुण उचरै ॥
    Ji*o ji*o nāmā har guṇ ucẖrai.
    As Naam Dayv uttered the Glorious Praises of the Lord,
    ਭਗਤ ਜਨਾਂ ਕਉ ਦੇਹੁਰਾ ਫਿਰੈ ॥੩॥੬॥
    भगत जनां कउ देहुरा फिरै ॥३॥६॥
    Bẖagaṯ janāʼn ka*o ḏėhurā firai. ||3||6||
    the temple turned around to face the Lord's humble devotee. ||3||6||
     
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    #14 Astroboy, Aug 6, 2008
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  16. dalbirk

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  17. Astroboy

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  18. Harjas Kaur Khalsa

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    First of all, a thread which was comparing Sikhism to Hinduism was closed recently. This current thread: "Sikhism, Hinduism and Sanatan Dharam" Was NOT started by me as it is artificially made to appear which even I concede is antagonistic in its presentation. And hereby I refuse to participate in this thread for this reason:

    1. a thread in which Sikh80 ji was asking questions about similarities in spiritual teachings was closed with disclaimer that it was disrespecting Sikh identity, also as a result of that thread a TOS was adopted by this website claiming that the mainstream view of Sikh idependant identity had not been respected.

    So to artificially start a new thread, with this heading which again pits Sikh versus Hindu is just bound to be closed when I begin to answer objections and as my threads are already being deleted per the TOS agreement I see no purpose in continuing any response.


    I wrote these initial threads in response to a specific claim from a posted article, which is no longer posted and hence, no longer in context. As to the attack against the sanatan views read in every single post thus far, on this artificial topic starter, which I did not start, but appears in my name propagandistically, alleging "lies" and talk about communal violence of Operation Bluestar, etc, have nothing to do with the original counter to the article which said, "Gurbani says Karma, devas, avtaaras, etc don't exist," and that Sikhism has no spiritual teachings which parallel what is found in Hindu teachings.

    I did NOT start another topic thread begging to be closed. I have already written about caste system on another thread, and rewriting points on every closed thread is ridiculous. I never said Gurbani praised the caste system as we know it with corruptions and injustices. I said there were tuuks of Gurbani which show Guru has stated the caste/varna system was instituted by God. And I also said Gurbani says the caste system as a point of injustice is incorrect and Guru promotes "equality in the spiritual teachings."

    So to attribute to me that I said Guruji believes in caste system as is modernly corrupted and unjust is the lie. The original caste/varna system per the Vedas was that anyone could be a brahmin, anyone could be a shudra, based on his behavior and attitude to God. the Manu Smrities institutionalized the hereditary discrimination. Both Vaishnav Hindu and Gurbani reject this, so don't impute that to my words. There remains the matter of why Sikhs have always been referred to by their caste surnames, even during times of Sikh misls, and why Gurbani refers to Guru using caste surname, and the fact that despite Sikhism being idealistically called a religion against caste system, it is one of the most caste conscious religions is a social-historical FACT which needs to be evaluated before someone like Dr. Baldev Singh, who wrote the initial article, uses caste system as some proof dividing Hindus from Sikhs. Again, I reiterate, Gurbani just like Vaishnav reform addresses caste varna system as whoever is devoted to God is the true brahmin, he who is corrupt is the shudra. So there is a spiritual teaching shared by both Hindus and Siks, how can you divide them by it? Why attribute to Hindus ONLY the worst excesses of caste system, when entire, influential segments of the Sikh community discriminate on basis of caste as well. And finally, why does Gurbani retain some references to original caste/varna system as instituted by the God and Sikh history from the beginning retaining tribal identities within Sikhs such as Jatt, Khatri, Ramgharia, Saini, etc?


    From an evidentiary standpoint, it begs the legitimacy of Sikhism in idealism as realistically rejecting caste at all. Also the video diatribe against RSS is not called for at all, since the RSS is not the only sanatan organization, nor do my own views support the mischief of the RSS. Hence it isn't relevant to my rebuttal of Dr. Baldev Singh's article. But I do invite all of you to look at how you continually demonize the sanatan viewpoint against all reason as being "lies" "RSS Propaganda to destroy Sikh identity" and don't even look within Sikh sangat itself why THEY THEMSELVES continue to perpetuate the worst of caste system, or even in Harmandir Sahib refuse seva to ladies on basis of sex. First clean your own house before throwing stones at sanatan Sikhi.

    It doesn't support the corrupted caste system you are trying to imply. The fact that caste system is mentioned in Gurbani as a social reality, indicates why historically within Sikhism, the caste system remianed a social reality.


    Perhaps this was the intention of the moderators, to close a thread exploring relationship oif Sikhism to Hinduism, only to create a fake thread, taking posts out of context and in response to a specific article and make like I had posted some kind of challenge simply to inflame yourselves. This whole discussion is artificially contrived, intended to slant negatively, and pretending I had created it to challenge the prevailing views, when I was challenging the denial by Dr. Baldev Singh that karma, transmigration, avataars and devas are mentioned in Gurbani. And THAT was what my posts were about, to prove he was wrong, they are in fact mentioned. It was NOT an article trying to show that caste discrimination and worst corruptions are legitimate as the responding posts are implying. So I remove myself from this discussion and ask in fairness that you delete it as it creates a false impression that I had started an inflammatory thread much like the ones recently closed. Or perhaps the moderators are playing some game to get me banned from the site for disregarding their instructions, even though I did NOT start this thread, but was responding to a specific thread article which was not even carried over in context. WHY AREN'T MODERATORS BEING FAIR AND REASONABLE? WHY CREATE FALSE IMPRESSIONS LIKE THIS?

    How dare you create a topic starter out of context in my name similar in topic to the threads you have just closed and deleted trying to justify banning me. You are worse than communists in propaganda.


    Who is lying to promote what? Caste reform really started with Vaishnav Hindu saints. Sikhism continued practice of identifying tribes by caste and retaining caste surnames, not only before Maharaja Ranjit Singh but in Sikh misl times, and even Guru's were known by their caste surnames. When a scholar such as Dr. Baldev Singh claims falsely that Sikhism as a religion rejects caste, and is distinct from Hinduism because of it, credibility for its prevalence within Sikhism must be explored. Again I have already acknowledge on many threads that caste system is rejected as a basis of discrimination, but perhaps continued for social purposes. At least, because of the reality of caste system, and Gurbani seems to acknowledged that caste system DOES exist as an Indic social structure. Nowhere does Gurbani say caste system is rejected, only that spiritually all castes are made into brothers, very similar to Vaishnav caste reform. Sikh Misls fought between themselves along caste lines. Even conflict between Banda Singh Bahadur Ji's men was conflict between tribes alohng caste lines. So the entire Sikh history is permeated with caste, how can it be ignored in any reasonable study JUST because it's unpopular to acknowledge? Hence Dr. Singh's thesis that this is some point of departure between Sikhism and Hinduism is itself artificial and untrue.

    Instead of everyone becoming emotional and denying the obvious, and attacking me personally, why aren't we validly examining the real Sikh history, and then promoting the authentic caste reform of both Vaishnavism and original intent of Sikhism, which I hardly doubt is the racist Jatt paat and Ramgharia Gurdwara mentality of today. Why is something like caste system always being used to DEMONIZE all Hindus and falsely praise all Sikhs who are often no different than those Hindus who DO discriminate on basis of caste unfairly? Let's be real was all I was saying.


    And again on point of RSS videos, LOL, just follow my profile to find old posts where I too am bashing RSS Hindutva repeatedly over the Gujarat riots. Why lay fake blame like some juvenile persons to accuse me as being RSS, or try to equate my discussion of sanatan history within Sikhism and Gurbani as being associated with RSS propaganda? You don't need Arya Samaji's or RSS to show you Sikh history is very closely aligned with Hinduism for hundreds of years. Stop lying to yourselves.

    Yet you do this to me, remove my comments relating to the other thread, and put them here, with your own title, but in my name to create some fake propaganda thread, with me a pretended poster. Make your own title threads with your own commentary. And then see if I want to participate in that discussion. Because I never wrote those threads in response to a topic starter or this title thread but in response to a VERY SPECIFIC article which isn't even here. Talk about spam. And I add, you claim my responses were unrelated to that other thread, yet were couched in DIRECT response to a QUOTE made in the first few sentences of the posted article, yet removed and placed here in some inflammatory context. WOW. Hypocrisy to the max. Thanks for the FAIR forum. And everyone attacking me as some kind of RSS agent, and all anyone has to do is go visit Jattworld to see what I'm talking about. Sikhism and Hinduism DON'T differ on basis of caste system, was my rebuttal to Dr. Singh's article... because SOME Hindus don't believe in it, and SOME SIkhs do! And SIKH HISTORY is FULL of it! So stop bashing me about it. Whether or not it agrees with your personal sentiments about Ideal Sikhism, it is still there in plain sight. As to analysis of WHY, then we are back to carefully looking at Gurbani and history. Just because Khalsa was one brotherhood DID NOT MEAN CASTE WAS IGNORED. IT REMAINED TRIBAL AFFILIATION AND SOCIAL TIE WITHIN SIKHISM FOR HUNDREDS OF YEARS. DON"T BLAME ME FOR IT.
     
  19. pk70

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    It doesn't support the corrupted caste system you are trying to imply. The fact that caste system is mentioned in Gurbani as a social reality, indicates why historically within Sikhism, the caste system remianed a social reality.

    I have to regretfuly say Bhain ji,lies have no bearing, a lot of Sikhs who follow Gurbani do not believe in this evil system given by evil mentality of some Hindu guy. Bhai Gurdas Ji supports what I say and Tenth Master practically showed the world that Guru Nanak made one Varana from four as Bhai Gurdas ji says. Your drums are empty, no bearing what so ever behind any of your claims. You just want to post on this site for your funny analysis.

    Who is lying to promote what?
    You. What? Here you go, “lies” in your own words” why is Guruji Himself designated as belonging to a particular caste family ..”
    How you lied?
    It is not the Guru’s words, it was written by Sundar ji in bani named ‘Sadd”
    Why do you lie through teeth by saying” Guru himself designated as belonging to particular caste family”
    ਖਤ੍ਰੀ ਬ੍ਰਾਹਮਣ ਸੂਦ ਵੈਸ ਉਪਦੇਸੁ ਚਹੁ ਵਰਨਾ ਕਉ ਸਾਝਾ
    khathree braahaman soodh vais oupadhaes chahu varanaa ko saajhaa ||
    The four castes - the Kh'shaatriyas, Brahmins, Soodras and Vaishyas - are equal in respect to the teachings.
    ~SGGS Ji p. 747

    What does it mean? How it supports your cooked up views, it simply says it is for all known castes without any discrimination” Jaat da garb n kreo koeee..M-3, clearly says do not fall into false pride of caste as it is not accepted in His court.
    ਚਾਰਿ ਬਰਨ ਚਾਰਿ ਆਸ੍ਰਮ ਹੈ ਕੋਈ ਮਿਲੈ ਗੁਰੂ ਗੁਰ ਨਾਨਕ ਸੋ ਆਪਿ ਤਰੈ ਕੁਲ ਸਗਲ ਤਰਾਧੋ ੧੧
    chaar baran chaar aasram hai koee milai guroo gur naanak so aap tharai kul sagal tharaadhho ||2||5||11||
    There are four castes, four social classes, and four stages of life. Whoever meets the Guru, Guru Nanak, is himself carried across, and he carries all his ancestors and generations across as well. ||2||5||11||
    ~SGGS Ji p. 1297

    This says only about what was already established, Guru Nanak take them across without any discrimination. If there were that truth you are desperately trying to make up, Tenth Master would have never allowed all to drink AMRIT from the same Pot. Do you dream to be more knowledgeable about Gurbani than Bhai Gurdas ji? He clearly states what Ihave been trying to say with his quotes. When that comes, you start bringing those so called Sikhs who believe in this evil thing

     
  20. Harjas Kaur Khalsa

    Harjas Kaur Khalsa
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    SODHI... is in Gurbani. Did someone artificially put it there? You bow your head to it as Guru. How am I lying to quote it? You say it is mistranslation...but word is there, in Gurmukhi. Stop using straw man arguments to attack me as a liar. I'm asking the question, why the caste surname designation is in Gurbani. I didn't put that word there. Why has caste system been observed in Sikh community for hundreds of years? And why do you blame "some Hindu guy" for practices of Sikhs simply because YOU don't like them?

    The point... every Sikh Guru married into the same caste He was born into. WHY is this, if Sikhism is to be interpreted as the ideal of rejecting caste system? If I ask the question, why do you attack me as a liar? It is historical fact.

    Many Jatts will only marry Jatts. Many Ramgharias will only marry Ramgharias. Many Rajputs will only marry Rajputs. If one analyzes this, why call me a liar? If Vaishnava reformers true to the original reform, reject discrimination on caste, why accuse ALL Hindus of caste corruption and not even be honest about Sikh casteism, yet prefer to call me a liar for speaking the truth? What kind of honesty is in this type of discussion?

    Scheduled Castes in Sikh Community

    How can you call me a liar? I'm trying to understand WHY this exists. I didn't cause it by asking the questions. Why trash only Hindus as corrupted? Veer ji that is a false analysis. It sheds no light on why corruption exists, how reform is being blocked, or what was original intention of reform, what was original intention of caste/varna in Vedas. And the fact that mischevious political organizations like Arya Samaj and RSS have actually been working FOR caste reform, while the public face of Punjab Sikhism has degenerated to this degree of corruption, should give pause over blanket allegations and overgeneralizations against Hindus and Pro-Sikhs WITHOUT TRUTH.

    YouTube - Bant Singh can still sing
     
  21. pk70

    pk70
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    ਸੋ ਐਸਾ ਹਰਿ ਸਭਨਾ ਕਾ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਕੈ ਵਲਿ ਹੈ ਤਿਨਿ ਸਭਿ ਵਰਨ ਚਾਰੇ ਖਾਣੀ ਸਭ ਸ੍ਰਿਸਟਿ ਗੋਲੇ ਕਰਿ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਅਗੈ ਕਾਰ ਕਮਾਵਣ ਕਉ ਦੀਏ


    so aisaa har sabhanaa kaa prabh sathigur kai val hai thin sabh varan chaarae khaanee sabh srisatt golae kar sathigur agai kaar kamaavan ko dheeeae ||
    Such is God, the Lord of all; He is on the True Guru's side. All castes and social classes, the four sources of creation, and the whole universe are slaves of the True Guru; God makes them work for Him.
    ~SGGS Ji p. 85

    This again doesn’t support your own made up views at all, it is just said as it prevailed in those days, to address all, proof of this is very vital” most of the people who joined Sikhism were from low classes in the beginning. Others followed later on. There was no special treatment per caste in the house of Nanak ever. Give me a proof, tomorrow you will say” why Gurgaddi was not given to a low class? I am waiting for that foolish question.

    When a scholar such as Dr. Baldev Singh claims falsely that Sikhism as a religion rejects caste, and is distinct from Hinduism
    He is right here and unlike you Bhain ji, he doesn’t use one tuk from here and other from there( even those tukas do not support you.)
    Even conflict between Banda Singh Bahadur Ji's men was conflict between tribes alohng caste lines.
    That has nothing to do with Gurbani teachings, personal ego even today over steps Guru Teachings.
    Instead of everyone becoming emotional and denying the obvious, and attacking me personally, why aren't we validly examining the real Sikh history, and then promoting the authentic caste reform of both Vaishnavism and original intent of Sikhism
    lies.
    This is only possible with a fair person, as per my observation regardless what evidence is given to you, drums of your own views go on. It becomes technically “nonsense” debate. Debaters accept right evidence unlike you. Let me give you one example before you judge me again as per your habit. I gave you numerous time a quote by the same person, Bhai Gurdas Ji, did you accept it by considering only one fact at his advantage “he wrote Guru Granth Sahib ji as he was dictated, he lived and discussed personally with Guru ji”? you stand no where close to his mastery on Gurbani. I am sorry and forgive me,I feel it is just wastage of time even to read your posts, they are biased and one sided.
     
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