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General Sikhism and Salvation

Discussion in 'Hard Talk' started by SpiritualSingh, Apr 11, 2013.

  1. SpiritualSingh

    SpiritualSingh
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    In continuation of the discussion on Salvation in the thread http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-youth/40469-repercussions-of-cutting-my-hair-post182701.html

    Concept of Salvation Mukhti/Moksh/Mokh is most prevelant in Hinduism also.

    The word Mokh is present multiple times in Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Any Hindi or punjabi dictionary will translate the word Mokh to Salvation so I don't understand how we can deny that .

    Mokh as per my understanding is liberation from the cycle of birth and death.It is getting freed from the world of illusion & duality that we live in.

    Liberation door is clearly a metaphor. In Sikhi various inner qualities of Gurmukh and Naam Jap is the key.If you don't agree with this statement then plz share your perspective on this and also do share what according to you is the meaning of mokh in Gurubani?

    My understanding: Those who have inner virtuous qualities, spirituality and yearning for God get it irrespective of Bana or religion. Bana of body should be reflection of inner bana (spirituality)

    Do you think Baba kabir and Baba Farid whoes bani is incorporated in GGS didn't got salvation due to lack of bana.
     
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    #1 SpiritualSingh, Apr 11, 2013
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  3. harmanpreet singh

    harmanpreet singh India
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    Nirvaana /Mukti/Jeevan mukt are mentioned many time in Guru Granth Sahib ji .
     
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  4. Harry Haller

    Harry Haller United Kingdom
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    Definition of SALVATION

    1
    a : deliverance from the power and effects of sin
    b : the agent or means that effects salvation
    c Christian Science : the realization of the supremacy of infinite Mind over all bringing with it the destruction of the illusion of sin, sickness, and death

    2
    : liberation from ignorance or illusion

    3
    a : preservation from destruction or failure
    b : deliverance from danger or difficulty

    What we are talking about here is the concept of salvation, not salvation. As rightly stated by my veerji, this is an Abrahamic concept. For those of us that do not believe in an afterlife, it is important that we do not see this one and only life as some sort of testing ground, or examination hall. It is important that we recognise that we have an ability to change the world, change our life and the lives of others by way of our actions.

    One does not become a Sikh to find salvation, the search for salvation is in itself a selfish pursuit, if Creation bestows salvation on you thanks to the circumstances created by your actions, then that is a state of mind that you have earned by living in Hukam, it can also be lost by not living in Hukam.

    In the Abrahamic religions, you get the impression that once salvation has been earned it is there for ever, for eternity, regardless.

    In Sikhism, one can fall from grace as easily as one can achieve it, the state of connection with the Creator depends entirely on your actions, thoughts, and speech, on a daily basis, an hourly basis, every second.

    connection with the supreme
     
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  5. Kanwaljit Singh

    Kanwaljit Singh India
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    The only way to be free is in the mind :)

    You are free when you don't get lost in the duality of the world. Like you don't chastise your neighbor for loud music while you yourself leave garbage at his doorstep.

    You don't hate your daughter in law and cry when your daughter is ill treated by her in laws.

    You don't celebrate birth and mourn death.

    And such state of mind can only be achieved while living here, not after dying. Hundreds of Akhand Paath will not help you. Your life is your lekha (written account) here and only that will help.

    If you let go of duality, you are Mukt before you die. Beautiful! :D
     
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  6. harmanpreet singh

    harmanpreet singh India
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    JIWAN-MUKT :icecreammunda:

    Bhagat Ravidass ji

    ਜੀਵਤ ਮੁਕਤ ਸਦਾ ਨਿਰਬਾਨ
    जीवत मुकत सदा निरबान ॥
    Jīvaṯ mukaṯ saḏā nirbān.
    Those who are Jivan-mukta, liberated while yet alive - are forever in the state of Nirvaanaa
     
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    #5 harmanpreet singh, Apr 11, 2013
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  7. Kanwaljit Singh

    Kanwaljit Singh India
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    And so here's Asa Ki Vaar simplifying it for you:

    ਹਰਿ ਪ੍ਰੇਮ ਬਾਣੀ ਮਨੁ ਮਾਰਿਆ ਅਣੀਆਲੇ ਅਣੀਆ ਰਾਮ ਰਾਜੇ
    हरि प्रेम बाणी मनु मारिआ अणीआले अणीआ राम राजे ॥
    Har parem baṇī man māri▫ā aṇī▫āle aṇī▫ā rām rāje.
    The Bani of the Lord's Love is the pointed arrow, which has pierced my mind, O Lord King.
    ਜਿਸੁ ਲਾਗੀ ਪੀਰ ਪਿਰੰਮ ਕੀ ਸੋ ਜਾਣੈ ਜਰੀਆ
    जिसु लागी पीर पिरम की सो जाणै जरीआ ॥
    Jis lāgī pīr piramm kī so jāṇai jarī▫ā.
    Only those who feel the pain of this love, know how to endure it.
    ਜੀਵਨ ਮੁਕਤਿ ਸੋ ਆਖੀਐ ਮਰਿ ਜੀਵੈ ਮਰੀਆ
    जीवन मुकति सो आखीऐ मरि जीवै मरीआ ॥
    Jīvan mukaṯ so ākẖī▫ai mar jīvai marī▫ā.
    Those who die, and remain dead while yet alive, are said to be Jivan Mukta, liberated while yet alive.
    ਜਨ ਨਾਨਕ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਮੇਲਿ ਹਰਿ ਜਗੁ ਦੁਤਰੁ ਤਰੀਆ ॥੨॥
    जन नानक सतिगुरु मेलि हरि जगु दुतरु तरीआ ॥२॥
    Jan Nānak saṯgur mel har jag ḏuṯar ṯarī▫ā. ||2||
    O Lord, unite servant Nanak with the True Guru, that he may cross over the terrifying world-ocean. ||2||
     
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    #6 Kanwaljit Singh, Apr 11, 2013
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  8. SpiritualSingh

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    Little correction:One needs control over mind to be free . Acc to Gurbani Mind is like drunk Elephant.

    Just an expansion: Remaining dead while yet alive means death of ego and attachments before we die because these attachments and egos binds us to the cycle of birth and death and brings us back again and again.
     
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  9. BlazinSikh

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    Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa, Waheguru Ji Ke Fateh!

    For human beings who live in the life of duality i think it is quite useless to discuss, debate and argue on a topic about "salvation", or anything else such "hell" and "heaven". I think worrying about these things can get in the way of being a Sikh/Hindu/Muslim/Jew/Christian/Buddhist and anything else and that is to be a good human being. When i think of people praying to GOD/Waheguru Ji/Allah/Jehovah/Jah/Yahweh in order to get to heaven, or salvation these sort of things just helps the greed inside of us to grow bigger and bigger.

    Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa, Waheguru Ji Ke Fateh!
     
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  10. SpiritualSingh

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    You are mixing totally opposite things. Heaven is for greed of 5 senses while salvation requires getting free from the bondages of 5 senses.
     
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  11. Tejwant Singh

    Tejwant Singh United States
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    No, it is not. There is no 'Concept of Salvation' in Sikhi. It is in the Abrahamic religions where Salvation means to go to Heaven after death. One is Saved in this manner. In other words, it is like one way/time reincarnation, which is totally opposite to what Gurbani is talking about.

    Pardon my ignorance, but I have no idea what you are talking about. What does 'Mokh to Salvation' mean?

    If Mokh is what you say above, then where does 'Salvation' come into equation?

    You still did not elaborate as I asked you in the other thread what Naam Jap means to you. Please elaborate the concept of Naam Jap in Gurbani. You may go back to my post#46.

    Mokh for me means 'Gurmat Fulcrum', simply put. Moks Duar means 'Living Freely sans inner shackles through Sikhi deeds'.

    All qualities are inner. You have to elaborate what spirituality and yearning for God mean.

    Are you talking about Sikhi Bana? If you are, then I agree. I have no idea about Banas in other religions.

    Regarding religion, you are incorrect. First and foremost, I do not consider Sikhi a religion, that is why I do not use Sikhism. Religion requires deity which Sikhi has none of and all other religions have their own respective Dogmas. Hence religion matters to them.

    I have already explained what Salvation means and in which religion the concept exists which is opposite to what is in Sikhi if the same word is used. That is why we have to be very careful about the translations. This is the reason I ask everyone, including you to give your personal understanding of the Shabads that people post.

    As mentioned before, I have no idea what happened to Kabir and Farid. Only Ik Ong Kaar knows that and I do not play Ik Ong Kaar.

    Lastly, I would like to add that this is the problem when we try to use words like 'Saved, Salvation and others' in the literal translations in English. These are the incorrect terms because they are automatically transported to the concepts of 'Saved and Salvation' in the Abrahamic religions which are totally opposite to what the Gurbani is talking about. The reason they are translated like that is because all the original translators of Gurbani were Christians, hence the Biblical slant.

    The case in point, I purposely posted Bhagat Kabir’s shabad in the last thread but no one noticed the blunder Sant Singh Khalsa, the translator made.



    One wears a skin as a jacket, shoes/boots, belt etc. Here, Kabir is comparing naked sadhus with the animals who never wear clothes and hence are born and die naked. It's nothing to do with the skin as the translation indicates. This is just one example.

    Out of all translators, Sant Singh Khalsa should know better the difference between the animal skin and the animal itself because he is born and bred in an English speaking country.

    Personal understanding is of utmost importance so that we can turn this beautiful poetry into prose in order to practice in our daily lives.

    Tejwant Singh
     
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  12. BlazinSikh

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    Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa, Waheguru Ji Ke Fateh!

    SpiritualSingh Ji, neither am i rejecting "Heaven", "Hell", "Salvation", "Liberation" or "Reincarnation". All i am trying to say is that debating on topic's like these are of no use, when we do not practice the Gurbani, then what is point of all of this. And anyway isn't asking for salvation like being greed because greed is something that we want, however all of our needs are only done when we are given it from Waheguru Ji. Just opinions.

    Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa, Waheguru Ji Ke Fateh!
     
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  13. Harry Haller

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    what about those with a lust for salvation lol
     
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  14. Tejwant Singh

    Tejwant Singh United States
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    Nuns on the run?????
     
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  15. SpiritualSingh

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    Whats that?


    Naam Jap to me is Naam Simran, whether through tounge or in mind.

    If you still want to deny that with same line again and again, despite of so many references of Mokh/Salvation in Gurbani ,then it is your free will.

    If your point is that Salvation is not the correct translation of Mokh without giving any evidence, then what can I say.
     
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  16. Tejwant Singh

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    Spiritual Singh ji,

    Guru Fateh


    Your comments are in Red and mine in Blue.

    Whats that?

    It is the inner balance based on Gurbani tools.

    Naam Jap to me is Naam Simran, whether through tounge or in mind.


    1. Can you please elaborate that?
    2. Can one use any words or only the subscribed ones?
    3. What is the modus operandi about this Naam Simran with tongue and mind?
    4. I need some Shabads from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji to understand it better. Please post a Shabad with your own understanding regarding it in order for me to learn.
    5. Is it parroting?
    6. Is this practice in Hinduism and other religions and if it then how is it practiced there?


    If you still want to deny that with same line again and again, despite of so many references of Mokh/Salvation in Gurbani ,then it is your free will.

    I am not denying anything. It is you who fails to understand the subtleties of the translation from the Gurbani language to English despite many explanations. I have no idea which part of the concept of Salvation that I explained you did not get?

    Do you understand the difference between a deer and a deer skin as I explained in my last post or are they one and the same for you?

    Please ask me again because Salvation in the religious term is used in the Abrahamic religions as mentioned many times before and it means the opposite in Sikhi. So, we have to tread very carefully as many non Punjabis also want to understand the translation and if they belong to any of the above three religions then, the message of the beautiful Gurbani will become distorted and misleading. I am sure that is not your goal nor your intentions despite your obstinate persistence.


    You have used one more Abrahamical term today. Freewill.

    What do you mean by Freewill from the Sikhi concept? Please elaborate with the help of Gurbani so I can understand it better.


    Perhaps, we have to change this one as well for our English understanding audience as many other words that distort the Gurbani's message and give it a Biblical flare which is not a good thing.

    If your point is that Salvation is not the correct translation of Mokh without giving any evidence, then what can I say.

    You are hillarious to say the least. I gave you the evidence about salvation in every post. Even today. See the above.:)

    May be, we have to find better English terms that do not confuse Sikhi with the Abrhamical religions because the terms mean totally the opposite for us. Gurbani is full of subtleties which can not be transported to any other religion and they are if we borrow the religious terms from them. Gurbani's message is unique. Let's try our utmost to make the message what it is.

    Thanks & regards for the great indulgence.

    Tejwant Singh
     
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  17. harcharanjitsinghdhillon

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    please do not get confuse with the word salvation used in christianity and sikhism.. in christianity it is the freedom from the clutches of the evil.. in sikhism it is the freedom or breaking away from the cycles of birth of death. this only happens with the help of grace of god, his return love which washes of our sins,, and also removes the ego n duality.. then only we are qualified to enter into such khand, our true home located at the feet of the lord.. please remember by preserving the ego and duality you won t have a chance at all for such khand.. you will be only wondering in and out of heaven and hells.. if not mistaken in sikhism a cycle of birth n death is already considered as a hell.. thanks
     
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  18. spnadmin

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    The cycle of birth in death (I think you mean reincarnation) is not a set belief in Sikhism. Guru Nanak's Gurbani itself is our liberation from this idea.

    A Sikh cannot reject caste and at the same time agree that we wonder through births and deaths.

    Salvation in Sikhism means to be liberated from the terror that comes with belief in the cycle of birth and death. This was the way that the Brahmins kept the multitudes in a state of ignorance and slavery to the caste system. Reincarnation and caste are not separate ideas.

    Who is "he" whose love washes our sins? Is that not also a Christian notion?

    "Khands?" These are not stepping stone, where one goes from one to another in a sequence.


    I find your words mystifying.
     
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  19. spnadmin

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    Actually, after a charge of "extremists" coupled with personal characterization of "on the outside," instead of discussing points of view, I have moved the last two posts, charge and reply, to the Leaders' section and out of the public domain. TOS prevails.
     
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  20. findingmyway

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    Isn't it better to try and escape being controlled by duality and kaam/krodh/lobh/moh/hankaar, then to try and escape reincarnation which has no proof and is an abstract concept? This week's Shabad of the week talks about the importance of living this life and changing now. Therefore the rewards are now, in this life too.
     
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  21. seekree

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    Slokas of Guru Teg bhadur ji (9th Guru) give very direct messages for a man.
     
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