Sikhism And Feelings Of Bliss

[BhagatSingh]

Confused ji, I find it hard to disagree with your posts.

Now even these people, as they continue to develop their concentration, moving up the different stages of Jhana, never at any time aim to have bliss. Indeed they would have to at some point, rise above happiness and rapture in order that they experience even higher states, accordingly the “sphere of infinite space, “sphere of infinite consciousness, sphere of no-thingness and finally, the sphere of neither perception nor non-perception. Those who are stuck at the lower stages where bliss dominates, this is because they do not perceive the subtle attachment. This means that those who are able to progress, this is because they recognize the attachment that has arisen towards it.

This is very well articulated.
Dwelling on your words has lead me to go beyond the words, and see your use of the words perception, bliss and understanding, as referring to the same thing. Although in your post I see how you use them for specific objects of attachment, which one must realize even the concept "understanding" can become.

As long as these things are concepts they can be attached to. The REAL deal is not a concept.

(It is important to keep in mind that words are inherently vague, and could mean anything. The same post could appear to be ramblings of an idiot or of an enlightened sadhu. And also at any given time, words can only point towards that from one perspective.)

Through your own expression you do point out one of the traps to enlightenment. And this is where the individual experiences a pleasant state and wishes to stay there longer, trying to control it/himself to feel pleasant.

It must be realized that this is how we normally operate. Hence stepping out of our habitual nature of seeking and avoiding, we must let go of everything.

Even Guru Nanak then said "if you wish to travel on my path, come forth with your head on your palm". Do not even be attached to your own life. Let go of everything; detach yourself. Let go of even the idea that one is trying to attain some understanding or bliss or whatever one wants to call it. Let go of these beliefs. Let go of the "head".

Letting go of things is accepting that which is, at this very moment. Letting it be, embracing it, dwelling in it, being in harmony with creation and creator, living in the Hukam, so on and so forth.

 

[Ambarsaria]

Bhagat singh ji couple of comments on your post as quoted below,

Even Guru Nanak then said "if you wish to travel on my path, come forth with your head on your palm".

• The above is a literal. The essence is come with an open mind and not pre-conceived ideas.

Do not even be attached to your own life. Let go of everything; detach yourself.

• So not Guru Nanak! He did not ask you to abdicate or not have a family.

Let go of even the idea that one is trying to attain some understanding or bliss or whatever one wants to call it. Let go of these beliefs. Let go of the "head".

• This is absolutely true as sometimes the biggest block to learning is pre-conceived ideas.

Letting go of things is accepting that which is, at this very moment. Letting it be, embracing it, dwelling in it, being in harmony with creation and creator, living in the Hukam,

• It is living in understanding of creation. If you want to call developing understanding as "Hukam" (will of the Creator) that will be fine.
• This one aspects is a sure way to stop learning and would lead to futility of it all, which is not the message of Sikhism. Enlightenment through understanding creation and living with such is the core message.

so on and so forth.

Sat Sri Akal.

 

[prakash.s.bagga]

Bhagat Singh ji,
The words are inhrently vague and could mean anything holds good if the words are not directed.
In Gurbani each and every word is properly directed for its specific meaning along with relevent context so that any one can get a difinite understanding of the messages.That is why the BANI of SGGS has been refered as BAANIYAAN SIR BAANI that is to say as APEX of all what has been said till date.
But it is unfortunate we fail to understand the uniqueness of Gurbani and our approach is casual too.
Prakash.S.Bagga

 

[BhagatSingh]

Yes pretty much.

It certainly does seem like a stretch when one goes from one set of words to another.

That sentence of Guru Nanak is full of meaning. Both literal and metaphorical interpretations make way for the real understanding. Meditating on them both, one begins to understand creation and creator.

Like Prakash Ji says, Gurbani is complete. It is all stated in there. We must begin to walk in that direction in which the words direct us.

 

[prakash.s.bagga]

Bhagat Singh Ji,

You are absolutely right ,Sir.

Prakash.S.Bagga

 

[Archived_member14]

Bhagat ji,

Confused ji, I find it hard to disagree with your posts.
This is very well articulated.
Dwelling on your words has lead me to go beyond the words, and see your use of the words perception, bliss and understanding, as referring to the same thing. Although in your post I see how you use them for specific objects of attachment, which one must realize even the concept "understanding" can become.

As long as these things are concepts they can be attached to. The REAL deal is not a concept.

(It is important to keep in mind that words are inherently vague, and could mean anything. The same post could appear to be ramblings of an idiot or of an enlightened sadhu. And also at any given time, words can only point towards that from one perspective.)

Thanks for your compliments, although I wasn't really talking about the path to enlightenment. ;-)

I think this thing about words being merely representations is not really an issue. More important is to distinguish between concept and reality, not just when expressed in words, but at the level of perception before labels are applied, in fact even before recognition.

Yes, except for Nirvana and the enlightened state which experiences it, anything can be attached to, not just the concepts, but also realities. Indeed it must be for example, the attachment to a particular taste, that there is then also the attachment to the concept of that taste. And yes, we can and do get attached to the idea of 'understanding', but this is only because at that very moment, there is in fact *no* understanding. Besides, the word 'understanding' has a history where it is used outside the context of the development of wisdom. For example we say, "I understand the problem", be this in the context of conventional knowledge or most of what comes as worldly wisdom, because these have nothing to do with the Truth, they must then in fact be all about attachment and ignorance.

Understanding as I like to use it however, when it does arise as a reality, is accompanied by and results in a degree of "detachment". Understanding the truth is to be free, momentarily though it is, from the object towards which one otherwise is taken in by, due to ignorance. In this regard therefore, it is in fact opposed to attachment. And as one continues to develop it, the likeliness of 'attachment to the understanding' must then gradually reduce. After all, the word will increasingly be associated with past instances of the reality and less and less to being just another idea. So when we are prompted to "understand", we know that it must be about what the "reality now is".

Through your own expression you do point out one of the traps to enlightenment. And this is where the individual experiences a pleasant state and wishes to stay there longer, trying to control it/himself to feel pleasant.

As I said, I wasn't really talking about the path to enlightenment. I believe that the development of understanding which leads to enlightenment, refer only to the moments when wisdom actually arises to know a reality. And when this happens, even at the beginner's level, there must be a corresponding level of detachment. Indeed it can be said that this is the "path of detachment" all the way through from beginning to end.

From this perspective then, great bliss is not a trap any more than say, great pain is. If wisdom arises, both will be seen for what they are and detached from, and if not, both are a problem equally. In other words if someone is in the situation you describe, chances are that he wasn’t on the path towards enlightenment to begin with….

It must be realized that this is how we normally operate. Hence stepping out of our habitual nature of seeking and avoiding, we must let go of everything.

Yes, attachment is the driving force for all of us. But detachment must come only with understanding; indeed one could say that it is a by-product of understanding. The focus must therefore always be to understand. If we speak then about "letting go", without taking into account the role of understanding, this invariably becomes just another instance of attachment and ignorance. In other words, no matter how much we tell ourselves to "let go" or "not to be attached", the result will not be in accordance to what only wisdom can cause to happen.

 

[Balwinder singh]

Wjkk Wjkf
harry haller ji

Yes in dynamics of life shades of path may differ for different individual but path is one.

Though the phenomena of kundalini is not very openly discussed in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji but mention is there on Ang 1402---Kundlini surji satsangat--And this important event occurs in the life of a singh upon whom the guru's grace falls.

Point 1) Regarding Amrit: As it is Hukam by !0th master to take Amrit from five rehtia singhs.All five are supposed to be ascended souls.What happens, at least , when they sit together and recite bani SHAKTIPAT happens.During Amrit prepration shaktipat energises the amrit.Then five piaras make eye contact and deliver amrit physically.So here all the methods of shaktipat transfer occur and from beyond Guru Sahib shower grace .So most important step towards kundalini awakening starts.Seed is sown.

Point2) Managment of kundalini awakening happens automatically by Sri Japjuji sahib and Bani .Messages one understands on the way from guru piaras in satsang.Company of sadh sangat is very important for intermittent charging with shakti.

Point3) After taking Amrit one should be very hopeful regarding samadhi.So
banis must be read/listened in meditative state as if you are going into samadhi otherwise simply time wastage will be there.

point4) Every body who so ever comes on earth has earthy desires/thoughts etc. except prophets or guru sahibs.To charge soul ,selfless service is most important.There is no concern of money, only service from heart.God enabled me to serve through homeopathy.I do not charge any thing. And feeling which i get after cure of somebody is simply matchless.

Dear I passed through all the shades with the grace of Guru Sahib Ji and hope that if this basic template is used , most of us can gain.

One more point , there should be total personality transformation .When grace falls , all negativities just vanish away.Believe me there are blessed people also among us .They are not in the sky or under water.Most of the blessed you will find in the house of GURU NANAK DEV JI.

And also , fake explanations can be given on any subject but they remain fake at the end.

More on site by us www.sikh-relics.com

Thanks for the comments.

 

[Ambarsaria]

Balwinder Singh ji are you believer of the following,

In the Doaba Region of Punjab, if we go from Hoshiar Pur to Dasuya, then almost at a distance of 30 Kms, before the town of Garhdiwala, on the Western side of the main road, a highly elevated Nishaan Sahib will be visible which indicates and shows a snow white elegant building, called Gurdwara Ram Pur Khera. The locals call it “Khera Sahib”. Asking from an elderly person of this area it can be known that the blissful, oozing atmosphere of modern Ram Pur Khera was a deserted, lonely and fearful place in the 1950’s. The general masses of the area were so frightened from the place that they avoided even passing nearby it. A huge cluster of “Banyan” trees, wild plants and bushes, long and tangled vegetation around it was the natural shelter for the wild animals and serpents. Even the rays of the sun could not touch the ground due to the roothless growth of underneath plants, so this piece of land was deserted, left out and discarded for human growth. Only the evil spirits, ghosts and witches were ruling over here, resulting in the increase of area of this cursed mound. Such was the gripping fear and terrible thought in the minds of the general public that what to say of entering this dreaded place, nobody dared pointing to it ...........

Please identify the Sikhism portion in the above as highlighted and I got it from the website you referred to in your post above.

I am personally very happy that you are helping people as that is the highest of all deeds and keep that part of your life going. Rest in terms of the site and stuff there is very dicey.

Sat Sri Akal.

 

[BhagatSingh]

Confused ji,

I feel you are saying the same things as I, and I am saying the same things as everyone else.

We are having a conversation obviously. But in a conversation two people say different things. Otherwise, what is the need for conversation? Think about it.

Perhaps, it's in the inherent nature of the conversation to take out of the reality (that we already understand) and force it through the human brain and out into an "expression" (conversation being an expression of that reality. thought is also an expression of that reality. One could say instead that thought is translated into conversation.). This expression that came through one brain looks different than when it comes through another brain. A brain does not recognize some other brain's expression but in essence it is the same. They are both expressing reality.

Ok now you mention understanding... The question is what is there to be understood?

You say understanding leads to detachment from everything (note: everything!). Then was there ever an understanding to begin with? This is the "sphere of no-thingness". Even to call it that would be a display of ignorance. But it must be called something.

If you understand reality then you have understood nothing.

(meditate)

 

[Balwinder singh]

Balwinder Singh ji are you believer of the following,


Please identify the Sikhism portion in the above as highlighted and I got it from the website you referred to in your post above.

I am personally very happy that you are helping people as that is the highest of all deeds and keep that part of your life going. Rest in terms of the site and stuff there is very dicey.

Sat Sri Akal.

Wjkk Wjkf

Dear Khalsa Ji!

I myself have not seen these entities yet but I have 1000% faith on Bani written by Guru Sahibs like mention of these entities is made by Satguru Arjan Dev Ji Sahib in Sri Sukhmani Sahib.I have also come across names like yam, yamdute etc. in bani.On our site , there is recording of Suleman who spoke through another person and sikh sangat of Rara sahib got answers to many tangible questions. In one section , after death-section , we have included reports of people who got permission to visit other realms where these entities live and they have given enough detail like lady julia, eva, swedon borg etc.In these days Brian weiss is spearheading the study/practice of past life regression in USA.


A recording by Baba Harnam Singh Ji of Ram Pur Khera is also on our website which gives enough knowledge about various entities.

Even myself used to be an comrade by thought.Now as one saint has transformed me and I say with full confidence that like kundalini , chakras and vanishing of lust, vanishing of greed,even body chemistry wrt respiration, always single pointedly thinking about God/Guru sahib are not mere talks or philosophies.This is truth and upon whom grace falls , he can get.Telepathy has become a sort of normal activity.

Similarly when God permits one can interact with Shaheed sings and other entities.One can make astral voyage.Leaving body and travelling.I know one such person.It is true that Bani japna only brings all this--no short cut.

Plz ask as many questions as you can.I will feel happy.

 

[prakash.s.bagga]

Balwinder Singh Ji,
The messages of your post may appear very interesting to any one. But Where can we find in Gurbani such tactics as being approved /or advocated.
It would be more elucidated if you can post any quote /quotes from Gurbani for such approval by Guru Sahib ji.
Prakash.s.Bagga

 

[Balwinder singh]

Balwinder Singh Ji,
The messages of your post may appear very interesting to any one. But Where can we find in Gurbani such tactics as being approved /or advocated.
It would be more elucidated if you can post any quote /quotes from Gurbani for such approval by Guru Sahib ji.
Prakash.s.Bagga

Wjkk Wjkf

Dear Bagga Ji!


In response to your doubt regarding astral entities like bhut,preta etc, i am giving below the references from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji

1) Ang 276 line--4 Under Sri Sukhmani Sahib.

2) Ang 654 line --12

3) Ang 841 line --12

4) Ang 991 line--6

5) Ang 1374 line --16

and also on Ang--323, 513,802,890,963,1149,1224,1329,1399.


Regarding kundalini ;

1) ang 1402

2) ang 333 line 3

3) ang 343 line 14

4) Bani Bhagat Beni Ji

5) ang 298 line 18

6) ang 974 line 11

7) 1002 line 6

8) ang 334 line 11

9) ang 944 line 18

10) ang 974 line 6

I think ample proof is there in Guru Sahib Ji to expel our doubt.

 

[prakash.s.bagga]

BALWINDER SINGH Ji,
I do not deny the references you have mentoned.These references are very much there in SGGS but I dont find any qoute /quotes adovating or approving such techniques.
Sikhs have been warned for indulging into any such practices so these references have been there in SGGS ..only as warning ....not as approval.

Prakash.S.Bagga

 

[spnadmin]

Balwinder ji

10 verses taken in isolation may mention practices and it may seem they are advocated. But put these references into a vichaar of a complete shabad. Reflect on the rehao verse and the concluding verses of the shabad. A different picture emerges.

 

[Balwinder singh]

Wjkk, Wjkf

Hello Dear Bagga Ji!

Following sared lines are from Sri Guru Granth Sahib JiJ from bani by Bhagat Beni Ji.

No doubt we need not to go for kundalini awakening as others do like

pranayam, neti and other such things BUT this thing happens in us also.

Our's is shabad-surat way in prem marg.We love our gurus and

do simran and we are also instructed time and again in bani to company

true sadh-sangat.Yes, we are not to focus on kundalini but on bani which

will do the same thing also and much more.



ਇੜਾ ਪਿੰਗੁਲਾ ਅਉਰ ਸੁਖਮਨਾ ਤੀਨਿ ਬਸਹਿ ਇਕ ਠਾਈ

This place is called 6th chakra.When after awakening ,soul touches/clears

this chakra, samadhi starts.

ਗੁਰ ਗਮਿ ਚੀਨੈ ਬਿਰਲਾ ਕੋਇ ॥

Path of guru only few understands.

ਤਹ ਬਾਜੇ ਸਬਦ ਅਨਾਹਦ ਬਾਣੀ ॥
when 4th chakra gets cleared anhad nad starts.With the grace of Guru

Nanak Dev Ji , das listened conch's tune as anhad nad.

ਸਾਖੀ ਜਾਗੀ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਜਾਣੀ ॥੨॥
This state is called witness state where one sees himself first.When das got this state , I used to feel as if somebody is always sitting on my shoulders and keep watching all my thoughts.

ਉਪਜੈ ਗਿਆਨੁ ਦੁਰਮਤਿ ਛੀਜੈ ॥

The day came in my life when all the questions were answered.

ਜਾਗਤੁ ਰਹੈ ਸੁ ਕਬਹੁ ਨ ਸੋਵੈ ॥
During this state i used to listen my own snores so many in no.My sleep hrs reduced to too less without wretchedness.


ਤੀਨਿ ਤਿਲੋਕ ਸਮਾਧਿ ਪਲੋਵੈ ॥


Then slowly I was blessed with samadhi which is just supreme where only bliss is there , no thought--nothing.Now daily for 3-4 hrs i remain in samadhi.Only samadhi clears our past life impressions.It creates brahm-agni which clears sukhmana nadi and thus paving the way to open 10th door.Similarly bani guides us about the route.Our bani has message from God and music underneath to clear the soul.Above all grace of Guru Nanak Patshah Ji.

How can i deny when all these things have happened with me and new things are unveiling . There are many illusions in our brotherhood.Some should be ruthlessly done away.

At last when we are hell bent to reject everything then there is no solution.

Guru Mehar Karan.

 

[prakash.s.bagga]

BALWINDER SINGH Ji,

I can realise you must have experiened such things and because of your experience you have taken them as final Truth.You may be right in your state of experience.
But we are required to understand the true messages of Gurbani and you would really find that messages are far beyond what you consider as final truth.
Gurbani is there to make us free from any type of Bondages.We have to connect ourselves with our GuRu only which is free byitself and is capable of making others free.
There is a Sabad in SGGS at pp610 Sorath M 5
Sagal Samagree Mohee Viyaapee Kab OOche Kab Neeche................

Kahu Nanak GuR Binu Nahi Tariye Ihu Pooran Tat Beechaaraa.pp610-19

You may get to the meanings of this Sabad You may get some idea about what you might have experienced.

Prakash.S.Bagga

 

[prakash.s.bagga]

BALWINDER SINGH Ji,
You are experiencing Samaadhi for 3-4 hrs only.If you really can make Samadhi with GuRu this is going tb 24 by 7 and forever.
I suppose Bhagat Beni Ji is making reference of Samadhi with GuRu which is permanent and for ever.[Ref the Sabad posted]

Prakash.S.Bagga

 

[prakash.s.bagga]

BALWINDER SINGH Ji,
I would like to bring your attention to the last line of your message as
>If we are hell bent to reject everything then there is no solution"

Dear Balwinder singh ji it is not like that the way you have thought.If your experience and your views pass the real Test of Gurbani views I am sure any one should accept it gladly.
So you may pl try to understand the relevence of your views.We all are prepared to appreciate and accept any view/views which conforms with the views of Gurbani.

Prakash.S.Bagga

 

[Balwinder singh]

Wjkk ,Wjkf

Hello Dear Khalsa ji!

May God /Guru save me from false ego.I genuflect before Guru Granth Sahib Ji and pray that my illusions may be dispelled and we should be put on the path towards the lap of Guru Nanak Dev Ji.Subtle ego is very dangrous.I close this thread from myside.

 

[BhagatSingh]

I personally do not see a disagreement.

What I do see is naming things differently.

• awakening of kundalini
• achieving Samadhi 24/7
• achieving enlightenment
• living in the consonance of everything/God
• living in tune to Guru's Will/Hukam
• intuitive understanding of everything/God
• merging of small jot with ultimate Jot
• understanding the nature of the self
• living in the present moment
• being fully aware and alert
• realization of Oneness
• realizing they are already enlightened
• realizing they are already merged
• realizing they cannot live outside of the Hukam
• realizing there is no God (every other name as well: Joti, Waheguru, Allah ,Ram, etc)

... etc

How are they different? Different only in their names and the fact that mythologies are created around them to try and get people towards them.

I mean the whole notion of some sort of coiled energy in the body that is opened up... I mean it could be true, I don't know, but it's referring to the same experience one has when jot merges with bigger Jot, enlightenment and so on.

You don't know which one is true. There is no way to know. After the experience the observer validates a particular name/desscription.

The Muslim validates that Allah is God
The Hindu validates that Krishna is God
The Sikh ...Waheguru
The Atheist ... nothing there

What neither of them realize is that when stepped upto the plate of validating anything, they already stepped up and out of the underlying reality. The underlying reality is the bull that supports their superficial reality.

The underlying reality could be named as "Waheguru" and superficial reality as "Maya" but by naming it any way, it cannot be realized.

Underlying reality cannot be put into words. What is important is to SEE what they/we are talking about. To see the underlying reality.

All the methods look different on the outside but inside... when you actually look on the inside of all those practices...they are all the same. Both practioners of Jotism and Kudalinism are doing the same. The Jotists maybe doing simran or something and Kudalinist maybe doing yoga or something.

And if they are not achieving their results they both aren't doing that which they hold in common.

What do they hold in common?

...

How do I name it?

I have used the words "underlying reality". but what the **** is the underlying reality? How can we know this reality?
One can know that by practicing and remaining detached from any particular set of words and any explanations (whether scientific because scientific ones can be pretty enticing nowadays).

That which in its ultimate form is named above and below in bullet points.

Even to say what we out to be practicing to realize the underlying reality, is difficult and can be said in many words, some of which may even contradict with each other.

They should be practicing following:

• awakening of kundalini
• achieving Samadhi 24/7
• achieving enlightenment
• living in the consonance of everything/God
• living in tune to Guru's Will/Hukam
• intuitive understanding of everything/God
• merging of small jot with ultimate Jot
• understanding the nature of the self
• living in the present moment
• being fully aware and alert
• realization of Oneness
• realizing they are already enlightened
• realizing they are already merged
• realizing they cannot live outside of the Hukam
• realizing there is no God

... etc

The practice is the goal? YES!

Stated like so e.g. kundalini
Practice the awakening of kundalini is the goal of kundalini yoga is to practice the awakening to kundalini is the goal of...

If you tried to follow the above with your preconceived notions about the underlying reality, then you probably went "what the ****?"

*sigh*

What is important is the practice and not the name of it.

I personally do not see a disagreement. I see that which is being pointlessly disagreed on.

(meditate)

That is Bliss.

ਬਾਵਨ ਅਖਰ ਜੋਰੇ ਆਨਿ ॥
बावन अखर जोरे आनि ॥
Bāvan akẖar jore ān.
The fifty-two letters have been joined together.

<table cellspacing="5"><tbody><tr><td>ਸਕਿਆ ਨ ਅਖਰੁ ਏਕੁ ਪਛਾਨਿ ॥
सकिआ न अखरु एकु पछानि ॥
Saki▫ā na akẖar ek pacẖẖān.
But people cannot recognize the One Word of God.

</td></tr> <tr><td> ਸਤ ਕਾ ਸਬਦੁ ਕਬੀਰਾ ਕਹੈ ॥
सत का सबदु कबीरा कहै ॥
Saṯ kā sabaḏ kabīrā kahai.
Kabeer speaks the Shabad, the Word of Truth.

</td></tr> <tr><td> ਪੰਡਿਤ ਹੋਇ ਸੁ ਅਨਭੈ ਰਹੈ ॥
पंडित होइ सु अनभै रहै ॥
Pandiṯ ho▫e so anbẖai rahai.
One who is a Pandit, a religious scholar, must remain fearless.

</td></tr> <tr><td> ਪੰਡਿਤ ਲੋਗਹ ਕਉ ਬਿਉਹਾਰ ॥
पंडित लोगह कउ बिउहार ॥
Pandiṯ logah ka▫o bi▫uhār.
It is the business of the scholarly person to join letters.

</td></tr> <tr><td> ਗਿਆਨਵੰਤ ਕਉ ਤਤੁ ਬੀਚਾਰ ॥
गिआनवंत कउ ततु बीचार ॥
Gi▫ānvanṯ ka▫o ṯaṯ bīcẖār.
The spiritual person contemplates the essence of reality.

</td></tr> <tr><td> ਜਾ ਕੈ ਜੀਅ ਜੈਸੀ ਬੁਧਿ ਹੋਈ ॥
जा कै जीअ जैसी बुधि होई ॥
Jā kai jī▫a jaisī buḏẖ ho▫ī.
According to the wisdom within the mind,

</td></tr> <tr><td> ਕਹਿ ਕਬੀਰ ਜਾਨੈਗਾ ਸੋਈ ॥੪੫॥
कहि कबीर जानैगा सोई ॥४५॥
Kahi Kabīr jānaigā so▫ī. ||45||
says Kabeer, so does one come to understand. ||45|| </td></tr></tbody></table>
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