Welcome to SPN

Register and Join the most happening forum of Sikh community & intellectuals from around the world.

Sign Up Now!

Sikhism And Apostasy

Discussion in 'Sikh Sikhi Sikhism' started by Jasdeep118, Feb 12, 2016.

  1. Jasdeep118

    Jasdeep118 Canada
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2015
    Messages:
    27
    Likes Received:
    15
    Alright, I am just wondering whats Sikhism reaction to Apostasy, because I heard that for Islam that they kill those who leave their faith? I know that Sikhism doesn't do that, but what do they do when someone leaves their faith? Also, I am not leaving Sikhism I am just wondering.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  2. Loading...

    Similar Threads Forum Date
    Interfaith Religion In Sikhism Interfaith Dialogues Wednesday at 7:50 PM
    Hard Talk Is Sikhism A Organised 'religion' ? And If So Is That Antithetical To The Teaching Of Gurmat? Hard Talk Nov 27, 2016
    Hard Talk Miracles, Dukh Bhanjani Sahib Paath And Sikhism Hard Talk Jun 2, 2016
    As A Child, Public Marches Of Sikhism Made Me Uncomfortable. They Still Do . Why ? Whats The Logic Hard Talk Oct 16, 2016
    Mediumship And Sikhism Questions and Answers Aug 23, 2016

  3. Joginder Singh Foley

    Joginder Singh Foley United Kingdom
    Expand Collapse
    Writer SPNer

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2008
    Messages:
    182
    Likes Received:
    271
    WGKK-WGKF

    This Sikh's opinion is to consider someone who leaves Sikhi the biggest idiot that Guruji put on this planet and let them get on with their lives and hope they themselves will see sense and return to the path of Sikhi like I believe the last Sikh ruler after the brits gained control of the Punjab who saw the error of his ways returned to Sikhi and tried to return to India

    :kaurflagred:
     
    • Like Like x 3
  4. Ambarsaria

    Ambarsaria Canada
    Expand Collapse
    ੴ / Ik▫oaʼnkār
    Writer SPNer Contributor Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2010
    Messages:
    3,366
    Likes Received:
    5,657
    Jasdeep118 ji thanks for your post.

    The Sikhism at its core does not in general believe in retribution other than in self defense of oneself, one's family (including SGGSJ) and for others who could not defend themselves. There is generally one exception in practice and that relates to people who have great influence, who could cause cause great harm to Sikhs in general or the essence of Sikhi. The Takhats can take up these matters and classify some people as "persona non grata" from a Sikhism perspective. But it is not common and has not proven very effective when exercised.

    Sikh Rehat Maryada further elaborates that the onus is on a Sikh to come to sangat (congregation) if they feel they have done something worthy of forgiveness or guidance.

    Otherwise inclusion is the guiding light and not exclusion or retribution.

    Sat Sri Akal.
     
    • Like Like x 3
  5. ActsOfGod

    ActsOfGod
    Expand Collapse
    Writer SPNer

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2012
    Messages:
    358
    Likes Received:
    505
    Bid them farewell and good luck?

    Or maybe say, "you'll be baaaaaack!"

    Generally, the most severe thing is to not have any further contact with the apostates. But that's usually about it.

    What would be the point in forcing someone to follow the faith if they don't really want to? I doubt such things can even be forced anyway.

    [AoG]
     
    • Like Like x 2
  6. Inderjeet Kaur

    Inderjeet Kaur
    Expand Collapse
    Writer SPNer Supporter

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2011
    Messages:
    774
    Likes Received:
    1,712
    Part One. The apostate is from a Punjabi Sikh family (and unmarried):
    People who leave Sikhi generally leave mata ji in tears, papa ji angry, and siblings confused. The sangat will comfort the parents and mouth platitudes behind their backs. If the leaver (apostate has a nasty sound) is keshdhari and cuts the kesh, double the reactions in the previous sentence. If the leaver is a Singh and keeps his kesh, but not his turban, he has become a hippie and your guess is as good as mine.

    If the leaver converts to another religion,ie, Christianity and goes into politics, but continues to visit the gurudwara from time to time, with her family, the person is not confused, most likely just hypocritical. And Republican (USA). And angling for a Vice Presidential nomination.

    Part Two: The apostate is not from a Punjabi Sikh family...to be continued
     
    • Like Like x 1
  7. Harry Haller

    Harry Haller United Kingdom
    Expand Collapse

    Moderator

    Writer SPNer Contributor

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2011
    Messages:
    5,118
    Likes Received:
    7,945
    Sikhism is not like other religions, one can be a Sikh and not even know it, for every person that claims the truth, for every person that looks deep inside and finds their true self, that is another Sikh, for every person that makes it their life to be consonance with the world, that is another Sikh, Sikhism is a way of life, not a faith, it is not some social club where people meet every sunday in big expensive cars, wearing lots of gold, just to socialise, gossip and try and outdo each other, and then sit bored until its time to eat. If your asking what happens when people stop helping, stop giving, stop having empathy with the rest of the world, then they lose out on that feeling of belonging and consonance with Creation, if your asking what happens when people leave the sunday club, that is another story!
     
    • Like Like x 4
  8. Ishna

    Ishna
    Expand Collapse
    On hiatus
    Writer SPNer Contributor

    Joined:
    May 9, 2006
    Messages:
    2,942
    Likes Received:
    5,002
    Technically I've become an apostate so many times.... but keep coming back stronger in my "faith" every time. If the community treated me badly upon leaving, or returning after a period of leave, then I'd be lost forever.

    There is mercy in the way Sikhi handles it for outsiders. I don't know about those in Punjabi families, though.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  9. Tejwant Singh

    Tejwant Singh United States
    Expand Collapse
    Mentor Writer SPNer Contributor

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2004
    Messages:
    4,559
    Likes Received:
    6,988
    If Learning, Unlearning and Relearning is Apostasy in Sikhi, then all of us who call ourselves Sikhs are Apostates.
     
    • Like Like x 4
  10. Jasdeep118

    Jasdeep118 Canada
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2015
    Messages:
    27
    Likes Received:
    15
    Well, for me I am at that phase when you doubt god's existence, for me I believe in god, but I am not sure if he exists. Alright, so pretty much you don't get punished for leaving Sikhism, but you leave your faith, correct? I am just heavily confused, when a Muslim leaves their faith they get killed, while when a Christian leaves their faith, they say they are sent to, "hell". What about us? Do we burn in hell, or stoned what?
     
  11. Inderjeet Kaur

    Inderjeet Kaur
    Expand Collapse
    Writer SPNer Supporter

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2011
    Messages:
    774
    Likes Received:
    1,712
    I doubt the existence of Deity on a regular basis. I no longer let this bother me. There is no way to KNOW. It is all belief and I find it generally easier and more natural for me to believe than not to.
    I think belief or unbelief isn't nearly as important as being honest about it. I remember reading in a Catholic book when I was a teenager that the first and most important thing is "Don't lie to God." That's not as easy as it sounds. I have felt on occasion, the need to address my prayers to "whoever is listening" or "Ik Onkaar, if you really exist." At other times I am 99.99% certain that the One does indeed exist and cares. I have never been able to convince myself that there's no one out there or in here or wherever it is. I guess you could say that my belief oscillates between uncertainty of about 50% up to 99.99%, which averages out to about 75%, which isn't great but it's still a passing grade.

    Also more important than belief or not belief is how I live my life. I think living as a decent person who tries to follow the Sikh ethos and make this world a better place - and has periods of uncertainty - is way better than being really certain and being a corrupt leader. :shockedkudi::reallyangrysingh::kaurfacepalm::rofl:

    What fate awaits the Sikh who dies in a state of not belief? Who knows? Certainly not me. I've died a couple times and really didn't want to come back here, but I wasn't disbelieving at that time, so I just don't know. I do know that it makes no sense at all to either condemn or reward a person on the basis of hir whim at the moment of death. And Sikhi is a most logical religion, as religions go.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  12. Harry Haller

    Harry Haller United Kingdom
    Expand Collapse

    Moderator

    Writer SPNer Contributor

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2011
    Messages:
    5,118
    Likes Received:
    7,945
    I don't believe in god, not the beardy sandal wearing all powerful angry and jealous chap anyway, I believe in Ek Onkar, which is present in everything and all, and can be interacted with, and bonded with, what happens when I stop believing in this? Oh easy, I start moving towards the darkness instead of the light. However, you need to know what is dark, and what is light, I observe many that are convinced they are moving to the light, when in fact, in my opinion, they are mired in darkness, but then there are plenty that live in the dark, dragging others to the light, its complicated, but makes more sense than a deity, to me, anyway
     
    • Like Like x 4
  13. Inderjeet Kaur

    Inderjeet Kaur
    Expand Collapse
    Writer SPNer Supporter

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2011
    Messages:
    774
    Likes Received:
    1,712
    If I believed in that fellow, I'd be a Christian or a Muslim or a Jew, not a Sikh.To be truthful, that god scares me and I wonder that anyone calls him (definitely male) a loving father.The Sikh vision of the One is not only a lot nicer, but also a lot more believable, at least to me.
    I remember a Christian friend clicking her tongue over this and asking,
    "But what if you're wrong?"
    Only one possible answer, "Then I'm screwed."

    [​IMG]
     
    • Like Like x 2
  14. Harry Haller

    Harry Haller United Kingdom
    Expand Collapse

    Moderator

    Writer SPNer Contributor

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2011
    Messages:
    5,118
    Likes Received:
    7,945
    If I am wrong, I am screwed too, but frankly, I would rather be screwed and spend eternity in hell, than live in what passes for Abrahamic heaven.

    I've been screwed all my life, why should death make any difference, I am a Sikh, sticks, stones and eternal damnation don't scare me, I've been married to a celt, I know no fear.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  15. Joginder Singh Foley

    Joginder Singh Foley United Kingdom
    Expand Collapse
    Writer SPNer

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2008
    Messages:
    182
    Likes Received:
    271
    WGKK-WGKF
    Learning It is like us engineers say you may have finished your apprenticship or degree but you are learning untill the day you retire. Likewise I feel that as a Sikh you are always learning you may even be an Arithardi Singh or Singhni but you will still be learning Sikhi untill the day Guriji calls you on to the next cycle of life or Sach Kand
     
    • Like Like x 2
  16. Harry Haller

    Harry Haller United Kingdom
    Expand Collapse

    Moderator

    Writer SPNer Contributor

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2011
    Messages:
    5,118
    Likes Received:
    7,945
    I quite like those who feel they have stopped learning, they are very entertaining!
     
    • Like Like x 2
  17. Inderjeet Kaur

    Inderjeet Kaur
    Expand Collapse
    Writer SPNer Supporter

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2011
    Messages:
    774
    Likes Received:
    1,712
    One way to look at it is that we are all screwed. The thing for me is that if I live with that attitude, life is completely meaningless and no fun at all and, as you know, girls just wanna have fun. I must admit that the picture of harry ji flitting around heaven with big white wings and a long white gown playing hymns on a golden harp for all eternity does hold a certain appeal for me, but, in all honesty, ANYTHING for all eternity would consist primarily of boredom. We are restless creatures, or at least I am; I dasn't speak for you.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  18. Inderjeet Kaur

    Inderjeet Kaur
    Expand Collapse
    Writer SPNer Supporter

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2011
    Messages:
    774
    Likes Received:
    1,712
    Accepting Amrit is the beginning of an adventure, a first step, not the graduation and, in my experience, most Amritdhari Sikhs know and accept this, although a few act as if they forget it from time to time.
     
  19. ActsOfGod

    ActsOfGod
    Expand Collapse
    Writer SPNer

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2012
    Messages:
    358
    Likes Received:
    505
    If you are worried about consequences, it will probably be more from your family rather than anyone else.

    No hell, no stoning, nothing like that.

    Just separation from the Source.

    Which is probably more than the soul can bear.

    But its all about your internal connection with the Creator.

    Its an inside job.

    It's fine if you don't believe in God. It's just the current stage of your spiritual evolution.

    What's your current understanding of God?

    [AoG]
     
    • Like Like x 2
    #18 ActsOfGod, Feb 15, 2016
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2016
  20. Tejwant Singh

    Tejwant Singh United States
    Expand Collapse
    Mentor Writer SPNer Contributor

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2004
    Messages:
    4,559
    Likes Received:
    6,988
    Jasdeep ji,

    Guru Fateh.

    When one studies the Mool Mantar, one finds that Ik Ong Kaar, who being Nirbhau and Nirvair can not have any link with apostasy nor can Sikhi have rewards and punishment in the way of hell and heaven like Abrahamic, Hinduism and other religions.

    It is just you and The Source without any broker in between.
     
    • Like Like x 3
    #19 Tejwant Singh, Feb 15, 2016
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2016
  21. kds1980

    kds1980 India
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2005
    Messages:
    4,504
    Likes Received:
    2,738
    According to puaratan rehats , the sikhs who broke their amrit were considered as apostates and other Amritdhari sikhs were not associate with that person
     

Share This Page