Islam Sikhi Islam

[spnadmin]

Re: Sikh...Islam...

Shaheediyan

When you say,

And rather than visiting all the threads I am posting on and implying I am creating false assumptions etc, have the courtesy to actually "quote" me where I have done this, as "I have done" in my posts above before answering your points, thus nullifying your negative claims.

Know that I am a forum moderator and visit all the threads every day. Also comment whenever statements appear to either get in the way of meaningful dialog or are way off the mark as reflections of Sikh philosophy. Naturally it is better when forum members who are not moderators debate Sikh philosophy. So you will see me again. VaheguruSeekr, and some others, have been continuing the dialog at a high level in this thread and that is the way things work best.

 

[Shaheediyan]

Re: Sikh...Islam...

What a friendly response bunch of people you are on this forum.

Talk about the pot calling the kettle black, who is inventing things here:

"I have no idea if you understand the meaning of metaphors or not. From your posts it seems you donot. You mean SGGS is not full of metaphors? The verse below you mentioned in one of your posts is filled with metaphors."

What I actually and "specifically " said:

""There is no hidden meaning veer ji, the holy words that I posted from Sri Dasam Guru Darbar are fact, not a metaphor."

Now kindly read the tuks I clearly refered you to, read your definition of metaphor, and tell me whether these are metaphors or facts:

"ਨਮੋ ਸਰਬ ਖਾਪੇ ॥ ਨਮੋ ਸਰਬ ਥਾਪੇ ॥
Salutation to Thee O Destroyer Lord! Salutation to Thee O Establisher Lord!

ਨਮੋ ਸਰਬ ਕਾਲੇ ॥ ਨਮੋ ਸਰਬ ਪਾਲੇ ॥੨੦॥
Salutation to Thee O Annihilator Lord! Salutation to Thee O All-sustainer Lord!20

“ਪ੍ਰਭੰਗੀਪ੍ਰਮਾਥੇ॥ਸਮਸਤੀਬਿਭੂਤੇ॥੪੯॥
Salutation to Thee O Destroyer Lord! Salutation to Thee O Omnipotent Lord! Salutation to Thee O Greatest to All Lord!”."

Is Akaal Purkh, whom we are praising not all these things....? Now show me where is the metaphor?

You say:

"First please put the meaning of the verses you post in any forum. Secondly in the above verse I could not find the meaning,' GOd is a destoryer'."

I am not sure why you posted that shabd, if you read my previous post, the tuks I posted were:

"" ਏਕਾ ਮਾਈ ਜੁਗਤਿ ਵਿਆਈ ਤਿਨਿ ਚੇਲੇ ਪਰਵਾਣੁ ॥
Ėkā mā­ī jugaṯ vi­ā­ī ṯin cẖėlė parvāṇ.

ਇਕੁ ਸੰਸਾਰੀ ਇਕੁ ਭੰਡਾਰੀ ਇਕੁ ਲਾਏ ਦੀਬਾਣੁ ॥
Ik sansārī ik bẖandārī ik lā­ė ḏībāṇ.
ਜਿਵ ਤਿਸੁ ਭਾਵੈ ਤਿਵੈ ਚਲਾਵੈ ਜਿਵ ਹੋਵੈ ਫੁਰਮਾਣੁ ॥
Jiv ṯis bẖāvai ṯivai cẖalāvai jiv hovai furmāṇ."

Destroyer = ik lā­ė ḏībāṇ

Depending on your beliefs, this could be construed as a metaphor, the tuk is refering to Shiv Ji, whom the mother (Vaheguru) created to play the role of the destroyer, as part of the trinity.

If we treat this as a metaphor, then the verse is telling us the Vaheguru himself if Vishnu, Brahma and Shiv Ji - he himself is the creator, sustainer and destroyer... but for some reason you guys find the last aspect of Akaal Purkh difficult to digest.

In any case I have clearly shown you Guru Ji's mention of Vaheguru as the destroyer through the Jaap Sahib tuks I posted earlier in the thread.

<<"Vaheguru is Akaal and Kaal.>>

Need verses from SGGS as examples.

Well you must already now that Vaheguru is beyond time from Mul Mantar, and you must agree that Vaheguru is also the lord of time - time meaning creation eing time limited - subject to death, only Vaheguru is not subject to time and death.


<<Everything is ordained by him, he creates, he sustains and he destroys, at will.">>

Need verses from SGGS as examples.
Already done so, see above.

BTW, moolmantar contradicts that.
How?

 

[Tejwant Singh]

Re: Sikh...Islam...

<<What a friendly response bunch of people you are on this forum.>>

I am sorry if asking you to clarify about what you have said in your posts makes you feel offended. Thats not the intention.

<<Talk about the pot calling the kettle black, who is inventing things here>>

It becomes difficult when one starts calling names which does not help forwarding any debate in which people can exchange ideas and learn from each other and if you do not acknowledge the fact that Gurbani is full of metaphors, then one wonders what is true agenda here.

<<""There is no hidden meaning veer ji, the holy words that I posted from Sri Dasam Guru Darbar are fact, not a metaphor."

As explained the meaning of metaphor before, it doesnot mean any hidden meaning. I wish you had read the definition before coming to that conclusion.

<<Now kindly read the tuks I clearly refered you to, read your definition of metaphor, and tell me whether these are metaphors or facts:>>

Again you are confused about the meaning of metaphors. Metaphor is NOT opposite of facts.

Before we get into anythng else. Can you explain the meaning of Mool Mantar which describes what IK ONG KAAR is? After we understand what the meaning is then only we can move forward and begin to understand the rest of this beautiful Gurbani.




Thanks and regards


Tejwant

 

[Shaheediyan]

Re: Sikh...Islam...

"As explained the meaning of metaphor before, it doesnot mean any hidden meaning. I wish you had read the definition before coming to that conclusion."

An extended metaphor, or conceit, sets up a principal subject with several subsidiary subjects or comparisons. The above quote from As you like it is a good example. The world is described as a stage and then men and women are subsidiary subjects that are further described in the same context.

There is no metaphor in the Jaap Sahib tuks I posted. There is no substitution of words, look up the construction of a metaphor i.e. tenor and vehicle, if these exist, then please show me where. It would be polite to address and conclude this point which I have tried to explain a few times before we move on to others.

Re your question on Mul Mantar, do you think it is that easy to explain?

Mul Mantar is the nucleus of Gurbani... Jap Ji Sahib elaborates on Mul Mantar... Maharaj elaborates on Jap ji Sahib...

I am quite happy to say, I am not in a position to answer that most difficult of questions.

But I suggest you listen to the deep and long kathaa from Baba Takur Singh Ji, Baba Gurbachan Singh Ji Khalsa or Sant Ishar Singh Ji Rarasahib... on Mul Mantar if you would like to start the journey to unveil the true esssence.

Vaheguru

 

[Tejwant Singh]

Re: Sikh...Islam...

<<An extended metaphor, or conceit, sets up a principal subject with several subsidiary subjects or comparisons. The above quote from As you like it is a good example. The world is described as a stage and then men and women are subsidiary subjects that are further described in the same context.>>

Comparison does not create any hidden meaning as your earlier post mentioned. To the contrary. it clarifies the actual meaning. Anyway enough about that. Lets get to our objective of learning the message from Gurbani.

<<Re your question on Mul Mantar, do you think it is that easy to explain? >>

My professor used to say when expressed to him that things are tough, "why should they be easy? Learning is never easy nor it should be." Hence Learning is learning. For a Sikh all stumbling blocks become stepping stones. depending on our desire as seekers-Sikhs. Please read various threads that explain Mool Mantar in this very forum. I am sure you will enjoy them.

<<Mul Mantar is the nucleus of Gurbani... Jap Ji Sahib elaborates on Mul Mantar... Maharaj elaborates on Jap ji Sahib...>>

Exactly it is, hence it is important for us to understand the meaning of Mool Mantar in order to understand Gurbani. We all know that Mool Mantar is the blue print of Sikhi hence the benchmark for us to know what Ik Ong Kaar is. If any definition of Ik Ong Kaar understood by us contradicts the defintion in the Mool mantar, then we know our definition is wrong.

<<I am quite happy to say, I am not in a position to answer that most difficult of questions.>>

If you do not know the meaning of Mool Mantar then how can you be sure that Ik Ong Kaar is a destroyer? You yourself mentioned Mool Mantar is the nucleus of Gurbani. So if we do not understand the nucleus then we can not understand Gurbani and your post does emphasize that fact.

<<But I suggest you listen to the deep and long kathaa from Baba Takur Singh Ji, Baba Gurbachan Singh Ji Khalsa or Sant Ishar Singh Ji Rarasahib... on Mul Mantar if you would like to start the journey to unveil the true esssence.>>

I am confused about your contradiction here. First you tell me you do not know the meaning of Mool Mantar, then you tell me how to understand the meaning by listening to the above people's explanation. You mean you have not listened to them yet you insist that I do?

Pardon my ignorance about the people mentioned above. Can you please tell me a bit about all those people you have mentioned above? I have no idea who they are and what do they have to do with our present discussions? Do they have any of their own Deras? If yes, then can you tell me the names and last but not the least, if you belong to any of them.

Can you also enlighten me by sharing the meaning of the title Sant and how does one qualify for that? Does Gurbani teach us how to get that title?

Regards


Tejwant

 

[Shaheediyan]

Re: Sikh...Islam...

Dear Tejwant Singh,

Before I answer your questions, kindly respond to the Jaap Sahib and Japji tuks I have posted re Vaheguru being creator, sustainer and destroyer.

"Exactly it is, hence it is important for us to understand the meaning of Mool Mantar in order to understand Gurbani. We all know that Mool Mantar is the blue print of Sikhi hence the benchmark for us to know what Ik Ong Kaar is. If any definition of Ik Ong Kaar understood by us contradicts the defintion in the Mool mantar, then we know our definition is wrong."

Yes Mul Mantar is the blue print. So according to you, one should seek to understand the secrets of Deoxyribonucleic acid before one tackles the day to day routines of how to live ones life??

It is though Gurbani we understand Japji Sahib (the hardest shabd to understand incidentally) and through Japji Sahib we understand Mul Mantar.

As I aksed you before, how do Guru Nanak Dev Ji's own words Ek Oankaar contradict their other own words that Vaheguru is ḏībāṇ?

 

[spnadmin]

Re: Sikh...Islam...

Apparent Contradictions is a chapter in the Bandgi Nama -- written by S. Ragbhir Singh, in the 19th Century. On page 169 he concludes as follows,

"We receive our thought-waves through cosmic intelligence according to
certain laws. Since we cannot see the other side of the picture we fancy
that we are the authors of such thought-waves. These thought-waves govern
our whole life; our actions are impelled by these thought-waves, but these
thought-waves emanate from an unknown and an unseen source. Whatever
we do is done in pursuance of and in obedience to these thought-waves, but
since we know not, and understand not, the unknown, unseen Source, we
sub jectively feel that we are doing and shaping and moulding our course."

The though-waves mentioned in the paragraph are the action of mun working its way toward a union/re-union with God. When we have just begun the journey we think we see contradictions. However, apparent contradictions can be the result of substituting our understanding for something more comprehensive. With time contradictions fade away and the metaphor remains because it is linguistic form that retains the substance of all the meanings in a simple package.

There are no contradictions when the Mool Mantar is taken as the simplest but also many-layered and subtle statement of belief. Understood as the vessel which contains the meanings of everything else in Japuji.

 

[Tejwant Singh]

Re: Sikh...Islam...

Shaheediyan ,

From my previous post:-

"Exactly it is, hence it is important for us to understand the meaning of Mool Mantar in order to understand Gurbani. We all know that Mool Mantar is the blue print of Sikhi hence the benchmark for us to know what Ik Ong Kaar is. If any definition of Ik Ong Kaar understood by us contradicts the defintion in the Mool mantar, then we know our definition is wrong."

Your response:-

<<Yes Mul Mantar is the blue print. So according to you, one should seek to understand the secrets of Deoxyribonucleic acid before one tackles the day to day routines of how to live ones life??>>

You are comparing apples and oranges. One needs the blue print to construct a building. If we do not understand the blue print, then it is impossible to build what the architect has in mind.


<<It is though Gurbani we understand Japji Sahib (the hardest shabd to understand incidentally) and through Japji Sahib we understand Mul Mantar.>>

I am sorry to say but your above post makes no sense. Mool mantar is the blue print and Japji is the foundation and rest of the Gurbani shows us how an individual Sikh can build his/her own building. We must remind ourselves as often as possible that only Vaheguru knows how many floors we have been able to build with our deeds. So to say one has to understand the building before one can understand the foundation and the blue print does not jive.

<<As I aksed you before, how do Guru Nanak Dev Ji's own words Ek Oankaar contradict their other own words that Vaheguru is ḏībāṇ?>>


Here we make a mistake by thinking that it is Guru Nanak Dev ji who is contradicting himself rather than we when we do not understand the message from TheMool Mantar- The blueprint of Sikhi, written by Guru Nanak. As you yourself mentioned very well in your previous post that Mool Mantar is the nucleus, which makes it the benchmark of what Ik Ong Kaar is according to the Sikh School of Thought and as we all know the rest of the Gurbani expands on it and shows us the tools that we can train ourselves with to attain self realization. So if some words taken literally from other parts of Gurbani contradict the Mool Mantar- our benchmark- then the fault lies in our understanding not in the Gurbani. Hence it is us who should change our outlook and find the meaning of the word which may have been used as a metaphor or may have had reference in the whole Shabad rather than in few verses. The concept is not difficult to grasp.

<<Before I answer your questions, kindly respond to the Jaap Sahib and Japji tuks I have posted re Vaheguru being creator, sustainer and destroyer.>>

Now coming back to your first query, let’s find out what Mool Mantar shows us what Ik Ong Kaar is and what it is not as other religions believe IT is to be.

It is not mentioned anywhere in the Mool Mantar that Ik Ong Kaar is a destroyer. As explained in my first post, Creator, Sustainer and Destroyer are human traits and our visionary Gurus were aware of that. God- the deity – a personified Almighty is a Semitic and a Hindu concept not a Sikhi one. The reason for that is all these religions believe in a personified God that is angry and vengeful, just like a human bully. To describe Ik Ong Kaar’s traits as human is belittling The Source with our parochial mindedness and Gurbani has shown us that in the form of Mool Mantar.

In conclusion, Ik Ong Kaar is not a destroyer according to the Mool Mantar. Now it rests on us to find the way through Gurbani the true message and try to understand what our Gurus are trying to show us when they use this kind of terminology. Perhaps that’s why Sikhi is not a religion but a way of life, a journey, a ride on a Gurmat train where learning never ends.

Let’s try to find the message together.



Regards

Tejwant

 

[Shaheediyan]

Re: Sikh...Islam...

Dear Aad bhenji,

Bandginama is an excellent book, glad you have read it.

Just one tiny pedantic point... it is our atma that seeks reunion with Parm-atma, not the mun. The mun is the playground for the 5 chor.

It is our mun that we seek to soothe and cool by giving recognition and rise to our atma. This is what the beautiful shabd "mere mun" is all about, Satguru (atma) speaking and winning over his mind.... once the mind is conquered, the word is conquered, and our soul can realise it's true essence.

Vaheguru

 

[Shaheediyan]

Re: Sikh...Islam...

It is not mentioned anywhere in the Mool Mantar that Ik Ong Kaar is a destroyer. As explained in my first post, Creator, Sustainer and Destroyer are human traits and our visionary Gurus were aware of that. God- the deity – a personified Almighty is a Semitic and a Hindu concept not a Sikhi one. The reason for that is all these religions believe in a personified God that is angry and vengeful, just like a human bully. To describe Ik Ong Kaar’s traits as human is belittling The Source with our parochial mindedness and Gurbani has shown us that in the form of Mool Mantar.

Veer Ji, you say that Creator, Sustainer and Destroyer are human traits: and to describe Ik Ong Kaar’s traits as human is belittling.

Kindly explain what Karta Purkh means?

 

[Tejwant Singh]

Re: Sikh...Islam...

<<Veer Ji, you say that Creator, Sustainer and Destroyer are human traits: and to describe Ik Ong Kaar’s traits as human is belittling.

Kindly explain what Karta Purkh means?>>




Shaheediyan ji,

That's the reason I requested you to check the threads about Mool Mantar in this very forum. You will find the answers yourself what Guru Nanak means when he talks about Kartapurkh.

And I am still waiting for the answers to the questions I posted in my previous posts.

Regards

Tejwant

 

[Shaheediyan]

Re: Sikh...Islam...

If you would like me to read a specific thread, kindly post the link as I don't know which you are refering to.

But if it saves time - Karta - means "he who does, he who causes, he who creates", I will be interested to know what recent variations exist on thisage old understanding.

Thanks.

 

[spnadmin]

Re: Sikh...Islam...

Here are 3 links to threads within the forum. They are arranged in order of relevance to this discussion. There may be overlap, but definitely read the first one on the list.

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-youth/15216-mool-mantar-the-blueprint-sikhi-marg.html

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/japji-sahib/15109-understanding-mool-mantar.html

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/new-to-sikhism/16084-new-the-beginning-ek-on-kar.html

Cheers

 

[Shaheediyan]

Re: Sikh...Islam...

Thanks Aad bhenji.

Tejwant ji,

"That's the reason I requested you to check the threads about Mool Mantar in this very forum. You will find the answers yourself what Guru Nanak means when he talks about Kartapurkh."

With all due respect, this is what you say when you talk about Karta Purkh, not what Satguru says. And your explanation in the blueprint thread is very basic and prejudice towards other faiths, most of which I disagree with.

I would suggest that you (and anyone else interested in understanding Japji Sahib) listen to the first 11 audio files on the deeper and traditionally taught meaning of Japji Sahib (Japji Vakiyhan) by the respected Gyani Takur Singh Ji.

GURMATVEECHAR.COM: JapJi Sahib

Most of my questions remained unanswered.

How is Karta not the creator, who created the universe?

How are quotes from Jaap Sahib re Vaheguru also being the destroyer metaphors?

 

[Shaheediyan]

Re: Mool Mantar - The Blueprint of Sikhi Marg.

GURMATVEECHAR.COM: JapJi Sahib

Please listen to above files for the traditionally tought vakiyhaan on Japji Sahib Ji. The kathaa is 80 hours in total, Mul Mantar is covered in the first 11 audio files.

This is for people who want to understand the deeper meaning of Japji Sahib.

Vaheguru

 

[spnadmin]

Re: Mool Mantar - The Blueprint of Sikhi Marg.

The thread entitled Re: Mool Mantar - The Blueprint of Sikhi Marg.. (begun by Shaheediyan)included a title virtually identical to an existing thread entitled Mool Mantar - The Blueprint of Sikhi Marg. (begun by VaheguruSeekr). The thread also included a duplication of the original essay Mool Manar- The Blueprint of Siikhi Marg. (author VaheguruSeekr). The one post unique to Re: Mool Mantar - The Blueprint of Sikhi Marg. (author Shaheediyan) has been merged with Sikhi-Islam (begun by Hannah-Banana).

To avoid duplication of thread titles and redundancy of essays within threads. Cheers.

 

[Tejwant Singh]

Re: Sikh...Islam...

Shahheediyan ji,

Guru Fateh.

<< With all due respect, this is what you say when you talk about Karta Purkh, not what Satguru says.>>

Can you please elaborate what you understand about Kartapurkh from the essay - The Blue print of Sikhi Marg, and how it contradicts what you understand what the Gurbani says? Your statement is a bit muggy to say the least. We both agree that Mool Mantar is the nucleus- the blue print. Then perhaps it could be the building we are trying to build based on this Blueprint is not being built properly. So I would appreciate if you would crystallize your thoughts.

<<And your explanation in the blueprint thread is very basic and prejudice towards other faiths, most of which I disagree with>>.


Well that’s what the debate is all about. First of all it is ok to disagree. I was expecting you to give me your thoughts about what I have mentioned; instead you have asked me to listen to some tapes by someone. Shaheedian, we as seekers do not need to defend our viewpoints by pointing out someone else’s work without showing what he or she is saying. So express your disagreement at will based on Gurmat values. That’s what Sikhi Marg is all about.

<<I would suggest that you (and anyone else interested in understanding Japji Sahib) listen to the first 11 audio files on the deeper and traditionally taught meaning of Japji Sahib (Japji Vakiyhan) by the respected Gyani Takur Singh Ji.>>

Thanks for the tip but you forgot to tell me, once again, who Gyani Takur Singh is, in the same way you forgot about others in your posts. Let me give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you have heard all his tapes and agree with them. Now please share with us what you have learnt about the Mool Mantar from the 11 audio files.


<<Most of my questions remained unanswered.

How is Karta not the creator, who created the universe?

How are quotes from Jaap Sahib re Vaheguru also being the destroyer metaphors>>


Once you understand the meaning of Mool Mantar, in which it is not mentioned anywhere that Ik Ong Kaar is a destroyer, then you will understand the rest of Gurbani. It is the Sikhi way as in our everyday life, it is not the ends that justify the means but the other way around. So for you to convince others that, Ik Ong Kaar is a destroyer you have to ignore the Mool Mantar.

Regards


Tejwant

 

[Shaheediyan]

Re: sikh islam

Baba Isher Singh Ji

His Holiness, Sant Isher Singh Ji Maharaj
Sant Isher Singh Ji Rara Sahib
Sant Baba Ishar Singh Ji Rara Sahib

Baba Ishar Singh Ji did immeasurable seva in the pant and dedicated their life to naam abyaas, educating the the world wide sangat and bringing hundreds of thousands towards Satguru's charan by way of Khande da amrit.


Baba Gurbachan Singh Ji

| Damdami Taksal |

Baba Ji's steeks are considered standard study material for all serious Sikhs (learners). They are regarded as one of the greatest gyanis of the 20th century.


Baba Takur Singh Ji

Listen to Babaji's kathaa and see for yourself the immense knowledge they had and seva they did.


All these Gurmukhs were not self taught, self styled intellectuals spreading their own understanding of Sikhi, but people who dedicated their life to seva, naam abyaas, studying Sikhi for decades before educating others, and studying it through traditional unbroken lineages that go back to Guru Gobind Singh Ji.

You have thus far avoided my questions, where I have answered yours by providing references to your initial questions, your repsonse is to ask me more questions.

Before I continue, I would again ask you to answer the questions I have repeated a number of times:

Namely, why you do not accept the tuks I have quoted from Jaap Sahib, when they clearly answer your initial question, alongside the quotes from Japji Sahib?

If you think your basic interpretation of Mul Mantar somehow sheds light on this question, then explain how rather than seeking my opinion on your version of the blueprint, that is a seperate discussion.

Thanks.

 

[Tejwant Singh]

Re: sikh islam

<<His Holiness, Sant Isher Singh Ji Maharaj
Sant Isher Singh Ji Rara Sahib
Sant Baba Ishar Singh Ji Rara Sahib

Baba Ishar Singh Ji did immeasurable seva in the pant and dedicated their life to naam abyaas, educating the the world wide sangat and bringing hundreds of thousands towards Satguru's charan by way of Khande da amrit.>>

Thanks for all the references of all these great Sikhs. I am happy to know that all they are well learned and chip into the Panth with their Gurmat wisdom that they have attained with hard work. I have no doubt about it. It is the duty of every Sikh to do the same. But I have few questions regarding them. I hope you are able to answer them.

Does he have a Dera?
How did he get the title of ‘His holiness’? Was it given by the Akaaltakhat and when?
Who gave him the title Sant? As I asked before, about you helping me through Gurbani to tell me how does one get this title and what Gurbani says about it. I am still interesting in knowing that.

We should always remind ourselves the names and or titles our Gurus gave themselves. None. They gave themselves numbers. Does it mean anything in Sikhi? I am sure it does.

Same questions for all the people you mentioned and if you are member of any of the associations and or Deras they belong to.

<<Baba Takur Singh Ji

Listen to Babaji's kathaa and see for yourself the immense knowledge they had and seva they did.>>

You are repeating the same thing again and again rather than giving me the specifics about what Baba ji says that contradicts the definition of Mool Mantar in my essay. We are going in circles and achieving nothing in return but inflated egos. It is not about us. It is about the Gurmat Path that we all so gleefully follow. As I mentioned before, share with us what Babas ji says what Mool Mantar means and where in the Mool Mantar it is mentioned that Ik Ong Kaar is a destroyer according to them. You have read their books, listened to their Kathas, so you have all the material to educate us all in this forum and enlighten us with it. Please share with us the treasure you have accumulated through them. After all we are all Sikhs and our only objective is to learn.


<<You have thus far avoided my questions, where I have answered yours by providing references to your initial questions, your repsonse is to ask me more questions

Before I continue, I would again ask you to answer the questions I have repeated a number of times:

Namely, why you do not accept the tuks I have quoted from Jaap Sahib, when they clearly answer your initial question, alongside the quotes from Japji Sahib?>>

From you discomfort and impatience shown in the above, it seems that you have not been reading my posts. It is you who disagrees with my essay. I am eager to learn from your disagreements but only if you express them. I can not force you to see the Mool Mantar the way it has been perceived by me but would like to learn from your viewpoint that you have failed to give so far. You keep on insisting that it is written in the Gurbani that Ik Ong Kaar is a destroyer hence a deity like Semitic and Hindu religions but you ignore the Mool Mantar which says to the contrary. Reagarding the Tuks you mentioned, I did reply about them in my other posts. I will do it again here. Any Tuk that we understand contradicts the meaning of Ik Ong Kaar as mentioned in Mool Mantar, then there is something wrong with our understanding of the tuk, not in the Gurbani. This indicates us to delve more into Gurbani to understand the meaning keeping the defintion of Ik Ong Kaar in the Mool Mantar as our bench mark. Not a difficult thing to do.


<<If you think your basic interpretation of Mul Mantar somehow sheds light on this question, then explain how rather than seeking my opinion on your version of the blueprint, that is a seperate discussion.>>

I have given you my interpretation. Now it is up to you to present the counter points through what you have learnt in your life from the learned people you mentioned in this post.

Let’s not go into circles. This attitude deviates us from our main objective and that is to learn about ourselves through Gurbani.


Thanks

Tejwant

 

[Shaheediyan]

Re: sikh islam

Veer Tejwant ji,

The main issue of our discussion is being ignored here, and we can (and are) going off in 100 other tangents. I will happy to discuss further questions, only when we reach fruition on this one.

Let's focus on your initial response you made i.e. Vaheguru is not a destroyer.

You say:

"You keep on insisting that it is written in the Gurbani that Ik Ong Kaar is a destroyer hence a deity like Semitic and Hindu religions but you ignore the Mool Mantar which says to the contrary."

Now using your Mul Mantar blueprint - you clearly indicate that your understanding of Karta Purkh is “creative energy”, indicating that Dr Sant Singh Khalsa translation (not transliteration, you don’t seem to understand the meaning of this word, transliterate means to map letters from one system of writing/language into another i.e. from Gurmukhi to Roman), and Guru Nanak Dev Ji’s intenion in using the words creator was to apease the people, rather than share the divine truth received direct from Vaheguru.

In any case you are contradictory, describing Vaheguru as having creative energy still implies he is a creator, and if he is a creator, then by default he must be a destroyer, as only he is Akaal, the rest of us are time and death limited – according to Vaheguru’s will.

And to repeat again, Jaap Sahib and the Tuk from Japji Sahib I quoted earlier clearly show Vaheguru’s role as both creator and destroyer. If you disagree with this bani or think it is a metaphor, then I ask you again to clearly show me how?

I understand where you are coming from re Vaheguru’s nirgun saroop – and thus being beyond description and personality, but he also commands sargun. All happens at his will, it is not for us to limit his definition, they are infinite, as Jaap Sahib shows us.

Thanks.