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Sikh Wars

Discussion in 'Sikh Youth' started by BhagatSingh, Nov 2, 2008.

  1. BhagatSingh

    BhagatSingh Canada
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    Battle of Saragarhi
    Battle of Saragarhi - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    "The Battle of Saragarhi was fought during the Tirah Campaign on 12 September 1897 between twenty one Sikhs of the 4th Battalion (then 36th Sikhs) of the Sikh Regiment of British India, defending an army post, and 10,000 Afghan and Orakzai tribesmen in a last stand. The battle occurred in the North-West Frontier Province, now a part of Pakistan, which then formed part of British India."
    Battle of Saragarhi - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Now I found many resources on Sikh soldiers but none on the Afghan and Orakzai tribesmen. Anyone have any idea where to look, etc?


    --------------------------------------------------------------------------

    I have a question about battle of Chamkaur. Is it possible that at least one for the 40 soldiers was a female?
    I am doing another painting on the what I pictured as the Battle of Chamkaur but with a female centered battle scene. So any resources/illustrations on the battle are appreciated. The haveli for instance, what would it look like?

    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Thanks,
    Bhagat Singh
     
    #1 BhagatSingh, Nov 2, 2008
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2008
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  3. spnadmin

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    Re: Battle of Chamkaur

    I am wondering why your are asking the question. Just read through about 5 descriptions of the battle on the web and found nothing regarding women among the Guru's troops But will keep looking.
     
  4. BhagatSingh

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    Re: Battle of Chamkaur

    Hmm... I also haven't read about women being in that battle but I didn't read anywhere that it was just men.
     
  5. spnadmin

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    Re: Battle of Chamkaur

    On the haveli

    Sikh accounts on the net describe an haveli as a small fort. However I discovered that "haveli" refers to an architectural structure brought to Northern India by the Mughals. These were very large houses with inner courtyards and exterior balconies. They were enclosed on all sides. The description makes them good candidates for the kind of "fortress like" building where one could stay in a protected space, keep watch, aim from a higher altitude behind the enclosure, and send small contingents of warriors for periodic sortis. If you notice the balconies to the extreme right. They are perfect for sharpshooters who can pick off an opponent from above and then retreat into the shadows.

    So I don't know but these seems logical to me.

    From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



    [​IMG] [​IMG]
    View of a typical Haveli at Jaisalmer, Rajasthan


    Haveli (Urdu: حویلی, Hindi: हवेली) is the term used for a private residence in Pakistan and North India. The word haveli is of Persian origin, meaning "an enclosed place". The havelis of Pakistan and north India follow the Islamic style of architecture and usually contain a courtyard often with a fountain in the centre. The old cities of Lahore and Delhi have many fines examples of Mughal-style havelis.


    The term Haveli was originally used by the Vaishnava sect to refer to their temples in Gujarat. In the northern part of India havelis for Lord Krishna are prevalent with huge mansion like constructions. The havelis are noted for their frescoes depicting images of gods, goddesses, animals, scenes from the British colonization, and the life stories of Lords Rama and Krishna.


    Later on these temple architectures and frescoes were imitated while building huge individual mansions and now the word is popularly recognized with the mansions themselves. Between 1830 and 1930, Marwaris erected [1] buildings in their homeland, Shekhawati and Marwar. These buildings were called havelis. The Marwaris commissioned artists to paint those buildings.


    The havelis were status symbols for the Marwaris as well as homes for their extended families, providing security and comfort in seclusion from the outside world. The havelis were to be closed from all sides with one large main gate.
     
  6. BhagatSingh

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    Re: Battle of Chamkaur

    Aad ji is that the inside of the haveli or the outside? and how old is it?

    Oh.. any idea what happened to the original haveli?
     
  7. spnadmin

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  8. spnadmin

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    Re: Battle of Chamkaur

    This one is the best. It seems that the havelis were personal forts -- palaces and forts.

    [​IMG] [​IMG] Jodhpur - India, Råjasthån
    One of several Havelis or Palaces within the Fort walls. All have orantely carved windows with a blending of Persian and Hindu elements.
     
  9. spnadmin

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    Re: Battle of Chamkaur


    I cannot find dates, but the eye-ball test for the first picture tells me that it was constructed in the 1700's. The havelis are expensive to maintain and many are no longer standing. No problem... I am intrigued by this project ...Will keep in touch with the thread.
     
  10. spnadmin

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    Re: Battle of Chamkaur

    More haveli's

    Bhagat ji -- This series of havelis shows them to be palatial. The havelis at these links have been restored as heritage hotels by prosperous business men. That gives an idea of how attractive they are in Indian history, but also how difficult to maintain in today's economy

    samode
    haveli
    alsisar haveli
    mandawa haveli
    kankarwa haveli
    amet haveli
    amarya haveli
    pal haveli
    karohi haveli

    The interior architecture is exquisite. Can you imagine how splendid they were in the times of the Gurus. And think of Nanak's shabads in which he tells us that even these magnificent palaces will not make us happy.
     
  11. BhagatSingh

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    Re: Battle of Chamkaur

    http://www.palhaveli.com/pal.jpg This pal haveli reminded me of Bhai Bachitar Singh.
    http://janeofalltrades.verveblogs.com/2007/India Trip/India2007T.JPG - Imagine Sikh horsemen galloping out of that gate and into battle!

    http://images.hotel-rates.com/hotelimages/s/081000/081028A.jpg This is a good picture of the Karohi haveli. I can use that for an outside scene.

    I like that observation! :D
     
  12. BhagatSingh

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    Re: Battle of Chamkaur

    That contrasts starkly with what our artists have shown.
    http://www.sikhiwiki.org/images/thumb/1/11/JujharSingh.jpg/300px-JujharSingh.jpghttp://www.gurmat.info/sms/smspublications/thesaintsoldier/gurugobindsinghgivinghiskalghitoasikh.jpghttp://www.sikhiwiki.org/images/thumb/1/12/JhujAjit.jpg/300px-JhujAjit.jpghttp://www.gurmat.info/sms/smspubli...r/gurugobindsinghshootingarrowsatchamkaur.jpgEDIT: Shouldn't the Singh in the picture above, behind Guru ji be doing something?? lol

    I still wonder what the original one looked like.
     
  13. spnadmin

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    Re: Battle of Chamkaur

    Bhagat ji

    Dont' you think that is because they had trouble with 3 point perspective? And were concentrating on the human action? The haveli's are just painted in as minimally as possible as a backdrop, more like a stage for the human action.

    I did a little reading about the Mughal influence on Northern Indian architecture. And they were definitely into bigger and spectacular buildings. The haveli were homes as well as forts and entire extended families lived in them. In the 1800's a new wave of haveli construction built up and they were built by well-to-do Indian businessmen for their families.

    Looks as if you followed those links and saw that many are now hotels relating to Indian heritage. And they are all large. Yes horsemen riding out of that one at Karohi would be a very dramatic picture.
     
  14. BhagatSingh

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    Re: Battle of Chamkaur

    No, that's not the case here.
    Yes possibly but the basic design of it, isn't like any of the haveli's.
     
  15. BhagatSingh

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    Re: Battle of Chamkaur

    Noo, the one above it! ;)
     
  16. spnadmin

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    Re: Battle of Chamkaur

    One last guess! They read a translation of "haveli" as "fort" and drew a fort instead of doing research first.

    BTW I also found pics of "forts" and their ground plans. Heh!
     
  17. BhagatSingh

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    Re: Battle of Chamkaur

    Lol, good guess!! BUT I doubt they read a translation of it. Bottomline, there images are stuck into my head and its hard to picture the battle taking place in a REAL haveli. Nonetheless, I must overome that obstacle.
    Please share.
    Maybe we can change this topic to Sikh wars, in general, and discuss different wars and why they took place. and also, gather up resources, etc so everyone can see.
     
  18. spnadmin

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    Re: Battle of Chamkaur

    Bhagat ji

    What about Palaces, Fortresses and Forts in Old Punjab!
     
  19. pk70

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    Re: Battle of Chamkaur

    Aad0002 ji and Bhagat Singh ji
    In Zafarnama, Guru Gobind Singh ji depicts pretty good picture of the battle of Chamkaur Sahib, I am giving in English version, not sure who translated it but seems interesting, just sharing with you


    Hadn't I taken thee to thy word upon the Koran,
    I wouldn't have chosen the path I did.
    (23)
    I knew not that thy men were crafty and deceitful like a fox.
    Else I wouldn't have driven myself to this state.
    (24)
    He who swears to me on the Koran
    Ought not to have killed or imprisoned my men.
    (25)
    Thy army dressed like blue bottles,
    Charged us, of a sudden, with a loud bang.
    (26) But they who aggressed not against us
    Were left unhurt, unmolested by us.
    (28)
    But, he who advanced from thy ranks beyond his defenses,
    Was hit with such deadly aim of my single arrow that he was deluged in blood.
    (27)
    When I witnessed thy general, Nahar Khan, advancing for war,
    I gave him the taste of a single deadly arrow.
    (29)
    And many of his men who boasted of their valour,
    Fled the battlefield, in utter shame.
    (30)

    Then advanced another one of Afghan blood,
    Rushing forth like flood, like a gun-ball, or a deadly arrow.
    (31)

    He made many assaults with great courage,
    Some with conscious skill, and others like mad.
    (32)

    The more he attacked, the more he was mauled,
    And then while killing two of my ranks,
    He, too, fell dead in the cold dust.
    (33)
    But the cowardly and contemptible Khawaja came not forth like a man,
    And hid himself behind a wall.
    (34)
    Had I but seen his face,
    I couldn't but have helped him too with an arrow.
    (35)

    At last, many on their side fell on the ground
    Hit by the arrows and the death dealing bullets.
    (36) There was, indeed, an overpowering rain of these,
    And the earth turned red like the lalla flower.
    (37) Torn heads and legs lay in heaps,
    As if the earth was covered with ***** and sticks.
    (38) The arrows whizzed, the bows twanged,
    And, it brought forth from the earth only cries and yells.
    (39) There were other dreadful, vengeful noises too, of weapons and men,
    When men, bravest of the brave, battled like mad.
    (40)
    But, what kind of chivalry is this in war,
    That countless hosts should pounce upon a mere forty of us,
    (41)

    When the lamp of the world veiled itself,
    And the queen of night came forth with all her splendor.
    (42)

    He who trusts, however, in an oath on God,
    His Protection also in He; in need, He shows the Path.
    (43)

    So, not even a hair of mine was touched, nor my body suffered,
    For the God, the Destroyer of my enemies, Himself pulled me out to safety.
    (44)
    I knew not that you, O man, were a perjurer,
    And a worshipper of self, and a breaker of faith.
    (45)
     
  20. spnadmin

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    Re: Battle of Chamkaur

    pk70 ji

    You have been in India. What does a haveli look like. Is the haveli of Chamkaur still standing? Thanks
     
  21. pk70

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    Re: Battle of Chamkaur


    aad jio
    In Punjab, it is known as “kachi(made of mud) Garhi( mini fort), I was born not very far from Chamkaur Sahib, I visited Chamkaur Sahib numerous times. Before I left India, I saw some ruins of that Haveli( Kachi garhi) but unfortunately when I visited it last year, there were more Gurdawaras (one was being built) and all cemented stairs. SGPC never bothered to keep old ruins in tact, they could have kept it by building Gurdawara next to it by securing it, dumb remain dumb even if they get power. Same way, Anandpur Sahib, I saw a big old well close to Guru Quarters, it had its original stairs way leading to the water. Mata ji and her fellows would take out water every day from the well. Now they have covered it and the stairs leading to the water are replaced with marble( at the end of the stairs, a Sikh man sits to collect money or may be guarding the water not to let it be polluted), there is no sight of that old well as it used to be, they have totally ruined it. I shall never forgive them what they have done to our heritage. When I see these people around(SGPC member) I turn my face away.

    You have pretty well described Haveli, it was a mini-fort made of mud instead of concrete that is why it was called “ kachee Garhi” It provided shelter from out side direct attack and gave leverage to the insider to attack outsiders if they come close. Guru ji writes about one person who tried to come close how he met his end. Later on, some what rich people called” jagirdaar” also used to build Havelis. Like a mini Fort, literally living quarters were protected by a high wall along with small spaces (windows etc) to watch for outside invasion or entry from any other side than the main big door. Your description of Haveli was enough though, I have expressed what I know being born there.:)
     

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