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Sikh Sovergnity !?

Discussion in 'Hard Talk' started by dalsingh, Oct 26, 2007.

  1. dalsingh

    dalsingh
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    Amar veer ji

    Shall we continue our discussion?

     
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  3. Astroboy

    Astroboy Malaysia
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    ਨਾਮ ਤੇਰੇ ਕੀ ਜੋਤਿ ਲਗਾਈ (Previously namjap)
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    Re: Amar Sanghera

    Dal Singh Ji,

    Please remove this thread at it is in direct violation with SPN rules.
     
  4. drkhalsa

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    Re: Amar Sanghera

    well I m not sure that this is the case . In past we have disscused in many thread about such topics and many exclusive topics are also there on this Topic


    BUT MAY BE THERE IS SOME CHANGE IN RULES BY ADMINISTRATOR SO I LEAVE IT TO AMAR TO RESPOND

    In muy opinion healthy discusion is better than buiding up differences


    JAtinder Singh
     
  5. Astroboy

    Astroboy Malaysia
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    ਨਾਮ ਤੇਰੇ ਕੀ ਜੋਤਿ ਲਗਾਈ (Previously namjap)
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    Re: Amar Sanghera

    Can we have a thread named under each member like an exclusive club ?
    There's a members blog for that.
     
  6. kds1980

    kds1980 India
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    Re: Amar Sanghera

    I agree with you .The speciality of SPN is quality discussion.in no way it should be stopped.i THink the name of thread should be changed to sikh sovergnity
     
  7. Sikh80

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    Re: Amar Sanghera

    To whomsoever It may concern
    The advice by a person of the stature of Begum ji should always be weighed before saying yes or no. There are chances that we may not have the prerogative of the valuable presence of Begum ji in case we continue like this. Kindly take into account the kind contribution of Begum ji.

    I am very new here but I second that has been stated by Begum ji.
     
  8. Astroboy

    Astroboy Malaysia
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    ਨਾਮ ਤੇਰੇ ਕੀ ਜੋਤਿ ਲਗਾਈ (Previously namjap)
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    Re: Amar Sanghera

    Thank you Seeker07 for favouring me. Afterall, this is the Hard Talk section and everyone has the right to voice out their opinion. I'm not saying I'm right.
    It is easier to see another's fault than our own. I'm also human. So forgive me.

    begum
     
  9. Huck_Finn

    Huck_Finn
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    Re: Amar Sanghera

    finally i have minutes of fame ... a thread by my name !!!
    :)

    i thought only players had it... :)

    Dal veerji

    what do you want to discuss?
     
  10. dalsingh

    dalsingh
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    This is what i wanted to discuss. The statement seems to overlook the fact that people in India may wish to rule themselves? Given that people have suffered at the hands of Indian "security" forces this is not surprising.

    What of Sikh sovereignity - do you deny it existed under Maharajah Ranjit Singh who was supported by the majority Sikh (and nonSikh) population. Can you not see how historically the state of India never existed in its current form until the British invasion.

    Also are the people from Quebec who are in favour of separation considered enemies of the Canadian state? Also consider the moves by the Scottish people in the UK to devolve authority from the English. Are they too enemies of the state?

    The view stated by yourself seems a bit mad to me. It is this kind of nonsense that is used to violate human rights by anyone. Are you suggesting that all people who consider autonomy an option are "enemies of the state"?
     
  11. Huck_Finn

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    <<<Maharajah Ranjit Singh who was supported by the majority Sikh (and nonSikh) population. >>

    Was there a referendum to estimate the support? Was it a democracy?

    was Ranjit Singh the elected ruler?

    i agree that a Sikh ruler had his kingdom.

    <<Can you not see how historically the state of India never existed in its current form until the British invasion.>>

    the current state of india came into existence in 1947. those who wanted to opt out had opted out.

    <<The view stated by yourself seems a bit mad to me. It is this kind of nonsense that is used to violate human rights by anyone. Are you suggesting that all people who consider autonomy an option are "enemies of the state"?>>>

    yes every coin has two sides and history judges actions in posterity.

    slogans of "Dhoti topi jamuna paar" donot ask for autonomy but talk of hegemony based on religion, which is unacceptable.

    On the question of people in Q and canada, i donot think it has religious undertones. It has cultural basis and it is being handled in a completely different democratic way.

    do you know that maharaj ranjit singh's rule did not exist much beyond sutluj?

    so in this case the indian side of punjab was pretty much never under your logic of "sikh" rule.

    even by population logic, lets see a hypothetical case, tomorrow if sikhs migrate to bihar enmass, breed like rabbits and achieve majority....should they start demanding their own country there?

    the buck has to stop somewhere!!!

    and it stopped in 1947

    so anyone having further problem still living in india can get a passport and migrate to any country they may like.

    yes i am overruling the assumption that people want to rule themselves, this is because india is a democracy and people elect representatives to rule over themselves.
     
  12. dalsingh

    dalsingh
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    India is very trigger happy. You talk of democracy but what kind of democracy eliminates
    masses of its own population, usually based on religious differences?

    Media portrayal of Sikhs in Bollywood is ridiculous and Punjab doesn't have any investment like other states. Are you surprised that Sikhs are unhappy with the situation? Sikhs abroad have proved themselves to be hardworking and prosperous (not that money means everything). Why does India not take advantage of these characteristics?

    Where were the common Indians when Indira Gandhi declared an emergency on losing an election? What happened to democracy then? Importantly why try to push Sikhism into assimilation into Hinduism? India seems to know nothing of secularism as caste and religion still play a big part in its running. Sikhs need to protect themsleves too.
     
  13. Sinister

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    Hello mind if I weigh in on the issue?

    Media portrayal of Sikhs in Bollywood is ridiculous and Punjab doesn't have any investment like other states. Are you surprised that Sikhs are unhappy with the situation? Sikhs abroad have proved themselves to be hardworking and prosperous (not that money means everything). Why does India not take advantage of these characteristics?

    I was never too fond of bollywood anyways. I think bollywood insults all of the indian sub-continent.... rather than 'just the sikhs' (especially woman)... have you ever seen a heroin act in a bollywood movie? her lines are pathetic and she is portrayed as nothing more than a dumb, large chested, dance crazy bimbo?


    investment:

    Foreign investment and Federal investment trickles in. But the problem in punjab is corruption; the state and local governments love their "ice-cream".:ice:

    Punjab has the highest per Capita power generation in the country (2.5 times the national average). All villages have been electrified since 1974! Punjab is a leader state when it comes to infrastructure (be it rail, highway, power). Go to New Delhi (the CAPITAL!) and you will experience 12 hour power cuts!

    A person must also consider that India has a population of more than 1 BILLION people!
    feeding that number is crazy especially when half your country's land is dry all year round or flooded with water.

    punjab has literally been reserved as the "greenbelt" region of India. Kind of like the state of Iowa for the US. The Government wants to purposely limit INDUSTRIAL development in the region so that it remains the greenbelt (which is the reason why punjab is home to significant diesel and electrical subsdies for farmers).

    Note: The government wants to limit Industrial development not agricultural development.

    so when you say "punjab doesnt have investment like other states" you are correct but it has nothing to do with faith or discrimination. You break my heart because your not looking at the larger picture.

    and separation is not that great for Punjab. The south of India is expanding rapidly and states like Punjab will get even richer with an ever hungry, rising middle class in the south. Punjab can feed off this growth and the last thing it needs is another border hindering this trade. NOTE: a border will just add another layer of corruption and bearucracy for the common farmer trying to trade his produce, grains and livestock to the larger market of south india.

    do you have any idea what the price of wheat in the market is this year?
    -- MIND BLOWING (grain shortages across the world...no better time for being a farmer) :}{}{}:

    and the small state of punjab accounts for 60% of india's wheat production!
    I was studying the chicago mercantile exchange a couple of days ago and wheat was trading at $7 a bushell!:{;o: balle balle indeed!


    all stats were from the punjab gov site.
    or
    Punjab (India) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Welcome to Official Web site of Punjab, India
     
  14. Huck_Finn

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    Dal singh ji

    being an indian and a sikh are two different aspects

    one is a personal spiritual duty and other is a national, collective interest duty.

    trust me, india is notas bad as the propaganda machine projects it to be.

    Punjab has a unique opportunity as pointed out by Sinister.

    but it is upto the people to stand up and grab it.
     
  15. Sinister

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    And grabbing it they are!

    ive never seen punjab in such a boom time mood

    real estate is on FIRE!
     
  16. TGill

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    Hi Sinister ji

    Great oppportunity lies ahead for Punjab as you rightly pointed out.
    - We are not really there to grab that opportunity as yet.
    - I think the punjab govt. need to get on the toes now to get the middle and low class of Punjab involved in this opportunity as well. So it all depends on our own people now not on the some distant relatives to grab the great fruits at this high time.
    - We have missed the IT train, can't really afford to miss this one.
     
  17. Sikh80

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    The policies of the state government are almost dependent upon the government that heads at the centre. Unless the govt. at centre is pro-sikh or neutral the situation is likely to be explioted further.
    We need to have clean politicians and not opputunists who are basking in their own glory.Punjab is a beautiful place.What has Central government done for the development of the Industries which is vehicle of the economic development.

    I am very sorry to state that the sikhs who have shown interest in Punjab are on finger tips. How can then we expect the growth of the Punjab as a state?
    We can discuss at a forum.It is ok. Ground realities are the one that matters. Besides drug addiction isanother problem which has shown its head in Punjab.
     
  18. Sinister

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    in terms of infrastructure punjab is well developed. go to states like Bihar, Assam and Orissa (go ahead and travel east to calcutta if you have to)

    these are the places that need major infrastructure development (many of the villages are without power and adequate food supply)

    its not easy distributing federal funds from the treasury.

    Why hasnt punjab jumped on the IT train?

    -its part of the greenbelt (as explained earlier)
    -its population lacks languistic and communication skills (most of punjabi's do not speek english as fluently than in the south) thus making south india the more lucrative place to open a call center or software development firm.
    -punjab also lacks quality higer educational institutions (which if I recall is the fault of state, not federal government).
     
  19. Huck_Finn

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    thanks sinister ji


    i have seen other parts of india. punjab has much more egalitarian spread of wealth.
     
  20. Archived_Member1

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    can you please explain this "opt out" option? i was not aware that Sikhs had such an oppurtunity. i'd like to learn more about this.


    regarding migration... that's not exactly true. only people who are considerably more wealthy than the average indian, AND who have found a country that will take them may leave for a country that treats them better. certainly the vast majority of indian people do not have this option.

    regarding the rule of people... i was under the assumption that a democracy means people do want to rule themselves, in fact ARE ruling themselves. in america we call this a government "by the people, of the people, and for the people". i'm pretty sure it's the essence of democracy. :)
     
  21. dalsingh

    dalsingh
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    I still see Sikhs as a sovereign people who lost their kingdom. One day they may get it back, even if it isn't in my lifetime.
     

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