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Sikh Missionary "GHAGHA" excommunicated !

Discussion in 'Hard Talk' started by vijaydeep Singh, Oct 22, 2006.

  1. vijaydeep Singh

    vijaydeep Singh
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    S. Inder Singh Ji Ghagga called to Akal Takhat


    Gurfateh
    Panthic Weekly: BREAKING: AKAL TAKHT SUMMONS GHAGGA AND PARTY, Boycott In Effect

    BREAKING: AKAL TAKHT SUMMONS GHAGGA AND PARTY, Boycott In Effect
    Saturday 21st of October 2006
    PW News Bureau


    Amritsar Sahib (KP) - Panthic Weekly has received information that Sri Akal Takht Sahib has summoned anti-Panthic writer Inder S. Ghagga and his associates for their mis-parchar against the Sikh Nation.

    The sandesh signed by Jathedar Joginder Singh Vedanti, has ordered a boycott of Inder S Ghagga, Gurcharan S Jeeonwala, Manjit S Sihota, Karamjit S Gill, Amandeep S Kang, Gurmit Sinh, Parminder S Parmar, and Jasbir S Mangat, and banned them from utilizing any Panthic stage or platform.

    Furthermore, they have been asked Ghagga to stop his anti-Sikh propaganda, appear before Sri Akal Takht Sahib and ask for public forgiveness. Until then, the Sikh Sangat is instructed to continue the ban against these individuals.

    TRanslation and copy of Sandesh from Akal Takht Sahib calling for a boycott against Ghagga and his associates:



    [SIZE=+0]SRI AKAL TAKHT SAHIB


    # 306/3410 Date: 10/21/06

    SANDESH


    [/SIZE]​
    [SIZE=+0]Akal Takht Sahib has been notified by the Ontario Gurdwara Parbandhak Committee Toronto, Sri Guru Singh Sabha Malton Mississauga, Sikh Spiritual Center Toronto, Gurdwara Jot Parkash Sahib Toronto, Ontario Gurdwara Sikh Council, and other affiliated Gurdwara Sahibs and Sikh Sangat from Toronto, Canada, that Prof. Inder Singh Ghaggha, author of “Sada BeRa Eao Garkeya”, who is also a staunch supporter of Gurbaksh Sinh Kala Afghana’s anti-Gurmat views, has been trying to cause confusion within the local Sangat with joint efforts of Gurcharan Singh Jeonvala, Manjit Singh (Sahota), Karamjeet Singh (Gill), Amandeep Singh (Kang) Gurmeet Singh, Parminder Singh Parmar and Jasbir Singh.

    [/SIZE]
    Looking at the rising tensions and concerns within the local Sangat, it is being mandated by Akal Takht Sahib that until Prof. Inder Singh Ghaggha does not appear before Akal Takht Sahib, and seeks an apology to assure that his anti-Gurmat writings (“Sada BeRa Eao Garkeya” and others) will be discontinued for further publication and circulation, him and his supporters, namely: Gurcharan Singh Jeonvala, Manjit Singh (Sahota), Karamjeet Singh (Gill), Amandeep Singh (Kang) Gurmeet Singh, Parminder Singh (Parmar) and Jasbir Singh (Mangat) and other supporters should not be allowed to speak from any Gurdwara Sahib or Panthic stage.
    Sikh Sangat is also being advised to not offer any kind of support to any seminars or conferences organized by the persons who have been put into question. Along with that, Sikh Sangat should keep up their efforts to raise awareness of anti-Panthic activities of these individuals.
    (Signed)
    Joginder Singh

    Jathedar (Akal Takht Sahib)




     
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  3. Archived_Member16

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    Sikh missionary excommunicated
    for blasphemous writings

    Varinder Walia
    Tribune News Service
    Amritsar, October 22

    Taking strong and suo-moto exception to the alleged blasphemous writings and statements by Prof Inder Singh Ghagha, an alumnus of Sikh Missionary College, Ludhiana, Akal Takht today directed the Sikh sangat to stop him forthwith from carrying out his religious activities all over the world.

    In a directive issued on the letter head of Akal Takht, the Jathedar also took similar action against Prof Ghagha's associates, including Mr Gurcharan Singh Jeeonwala, Mr Manjit Singh Sahota, Mr Karamjit Singh Gill, Mr Amandeep Singh Kang, Mr Gurmit Singh , Mr Parminder Singh Parmar, Mr Jasbir Singh Mangat and their associates.

    The development is considered unprecedented since Prof Ghagga and his associates were not given an opportunity to clarify their respective positions.
    Finding the remarks too obnoxious, the Akal Takhat this time directed the Sikhs not to allow Prof Ghagha and his associates to speak from any gurdwara or panthak stage.

    Earlier, one Bhag Singh of Ambala was also excommunicated on the same grounds for writing against 'benati choupai' and 'ardas'. However, he had presented himself before the Akal Takht and sought forgiveness. Later, Mr Gurbax Singh Kala Afghana was excommunicated from the Sikh panth for the same reasons.

    Of late, many petitions had been pouring in against Prof Ghagha, He and his group had been indulging in blasphemous writings against the Sikh ideology and 'gurbani', they allege.

    Interestingly, Ghagha claims himself to be associated with missionary colleges but the Sikh Missionary College, Ludhiana, declared that he was not associated with the institute. The same statement had come from Gurmat Gian Missionary College where Ghagha was teaching. Mr Gurcharanjit Singh Lamba, editor of the community journal Sant Sipahi, criticsed these statements saying that merely saying that he was not associated with them had no meaning unless these institutions condemned the writings of Ghagha and Kala Afghana.

    Prof Ghagha who had been an ardent supporter of cop-turned- Sikh scholar Gurbakhsh Singh Kala Afghana, is presently in Canada. His speeches there triggered physical clashes between rival groups and the atmosphere was getting surcharged.

    Ghagha started with casting aspersions against the 'bani' of Guru Gobind Singh and then came down to passing adverse remarks on the 'bani' and history of all the gurus.
    The Akal Takhat directive has also given a stern direction to Sikhs not to cooperate in any of the seminars and conventions organised by Ghagha and his associates.
     
  4. hakimpuria

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    Re: S. Inder Singh Ji Ghagga called to Akal Takhat

    Vijaydeep Singh ji,
    Guru Fateh . It’s very sad to read about this letter on the name of Mr. Ghagga by our respected Jathadar Sahib. It is equally very regretful that our own brothers (who speak about Gurbani and Our History from their point of view) are not abstaining from saying things that further divide our already divided Sikh nation. On the other side Jathadar Sahib should have given them a chance to explain their side of the story before Sangat is asked to segregate them without knowing anything. Even murderers are given a chance to explain their side before they are proven guilty. I do not see any good behavior on the part of complaining party as I heard of it from my close friends. How dare we do such things in the presence of Guru Granth Sahib Ji. I respect our higher authorities but we are lowering the respect of Akal Thakat Sahib by seeing Hukamnama’s issued on these small issues, which can be resolved locally. Once again I pray that none of us do anything in Sangat that causes a split among our Sikh brothers and sisters.
    Yours Sincerely
    Hakimpuria
     
  5. vijaydeep Singh

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    Re: S. Inder Singh Ji Ghagga called to Akal Takhat

    Gurfateh
    There should have been a debate at Akal Takhat to show,that who is Ok as per Gurmat.Then say just highjacking the things all togather.

    Still das goes for all the missioanaries come to Akal Takhat and have a debte with Jathedar Ji(who has by now droped title Vedanti so das will not call him Vedanti Ji).

    But by know are missioanris that much mtivated that they can come our openly to confront the issues raised by gruops say AKJ?Are they (The missioary) ready to give out thier life to support thier ideology(As Fiftha dn Ninth Master did) say if someone Anti to them attack them or kill them?

    Qauma bandiyan Nal Qurbaniayan De(Nations are made by sacrfise).Das tried to tranlate from Punajabi.

    So to propogate thier idelogy,Missioaries have to come out in open and ready to die to preach,what they say is true.

    Else thier will die,in seclusion,with thier ideology.

    But often they keep on blaming AKJ or Sants about x did Bhatta Bithana or sinking of Sikhism or y did it.Are they in ample high spirit to put forth thier views?

    Kindly think over the postive critisism das made just to let them think on the issue of factor dynamic(Courage,detemination and Stemina),which is more in Sants and AKJ but in Missioaries we have more intellect often imparing factor dynamic.Sant Sipahi or Saint Soldier and Miri Piri or Faith with adminstrations etc. needs balanece persenality but there seems to be imbalance on both side and both need to be reformed.

    Das calls upon misisaory to initiate self sacrfise and give away the fear of life in the way of Akal.
     
  6. plamba

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    Inder Singh Ghagga Excommunicated

    Hyper-linked version with photos:

    The Sikh Times - News and Analysis - Inder Singh Ghagga Excommunicated

    =====

    Inder Singh Ghagga Excommunicated

    By PUNEET SINGH LAMBA

    The Sikh Times, Boston, Oct. 23, 2006

    Photo: Inder Singh Ghagga

    Photo: Kulbir Singh (second from extreme left) and Inder Singh Ghagga (extreme right)

    Photo: Brawl triggered by Inder Singh Ghagga's speech at a gurdwara in Brampton, Ontario, Canada

    Background
    ##########

    Inder Singh Ghagga, a former professor of the Sikh Missionary College, Ludhiana, appears to have courted controversy with the publication of his recent book Sada Berra Eon Garkia (Misrepresentations in Sikhism), Patiala: Fateh Publications, 2005.

    Inder's willingness to discuss the book appears to have fueled the controversy instead of bringing matters to an amicable conclusion.

    As a result, The Tribune (Chandigarh) reported yesterday that Inder, along with several of his associates, has been excommunicated by Joginder Singh Vedanti, jathedar (chief) of the Akal Takht (the apex Sikh authority). The Akal Takht's action is highly reminiscent of Gurbakhsh Singh Kala Afghana's excommunication in 2003.

    It appears that the controversy began to escalate after Inder's appearance at a gurdwara in Brampton, Ontario, where his speech was followed by harsh exchanges and perhaps some violence between Inder's supporters and other parties present at the gurdwara.

    According to a video posted on YouTube.com by RaklaB on October 8, fists were thrown and turbans came off during the brawl that erupted during Inder's speech. The breaking point was apparently Inder's reference to Damdami Taksal's insistence, until very recently, that Jarnail Singh Bhinranwale did not die during Operation Bluestar in 1984 and was still alive.

    Apparently, two weeks following the exchanges at the gurdwara, agreement was reached to discuss matters on September 27, 2006 at Gurdwara Tapoban Sahib, Brampton, Ontario (http://www.tapoban.org/).

    Subsequently, another discussion was scheduled for October 1, 2006 at 9 a.m., apparently moderated by a neutral Sikh third party in the basement of a home. The discussion finally kicked off at 1 p.m. and lasted several hours. This discussion was video recorded. The following report is based on a viewing of the video recordings.

    Discussion
    ##########

    The format of the discussion was such that only two individuals were officially permitted to speak. The two were Inder himself and one Kulbir Singh, representing a group from Gurdwara Tapoban Sahib. Kulbir and many of his supporters were dressed in blue Akhand Kirtani Jatha (A.K.J.)-style turbans with the khandas (Khalsa emblems) attached on the front.

    Inder started off by lamenting that although he had raised some four hundred points in his writings, minor critiques were being used to distract from the primary thrust of his book.

    Guru Arjan's Martyrdom
    ######################

    The first issue raised was Inder's assertion that Guru Arjan must have lost consciousness during torture by the Mughals because, despite his substantial mental prowess, the Guru after all had a human body and all human bodies are naturally subject to pain. Inder clarified that he wasn't quoting any reference and that this was purely his own personal opinion.

    Kulbir objected that a Sikh could scarcely be expected to seek support from the Guru during difficult times if the Guru himself was thought to be too weak to withstand torture.

    Inder pointed out that a distinction ought to be made between the Guru and Akal Purakh (God). Kulbir seemed unable to draw the distinction.

    Inder contended that if Guru Arjan had supernatural powers to resist torture he would have used those powers to change the minds of the Mughal rulers in order to prevent them from persecuting the Sikhs in the first place.

    Further, Inder expressed objection to fantastic claims in Santokh Singh's hagiographical Suraj Parkash (1844) that Guru Angad's feet developed leprosy when Guru Nanak set his forehead at Guru Angad's feet upon appointing Angad as Guru. Inder explained that Suraj Parkash claims that this leprosy continued until the fifth Guru, Arjan, wiped Guru Nanak's son Sri Chand's feet with his beard.

    Inder also objected to stories about people drinking the eighth Guru's charan-amrit (foot-wash) to cure chechak (small pox), especially given that Guru Harkrishan himself is said to have died of small pox.

    Inder offered these examples to establish that his claim that Guru Angad must have lost consciousness during torture was no more blasphemous than well-accepted stories such as these suggesting that Guru Harkrishan himself died of small pox when Gurus were generally seen to be curing small pox.

    Kulbir retorted, 'two wrongs don't make a right.'

    Inder defended his right to cite his opinions without reference. He mentioned that Santokh Singh and many others also did not cite any references to support the views expressed in their writings.

    After Kulbir repeatedly pressured Inder to remove from his book the reference regarding Guru Arjan's loss of consciousness during torture, Inder finally agreed to consider rewording the offending sentence.

    Guru Nanak and Halal Meat
    #########################

    Next, Kulbir raised an objection to Inder's view that Guru Nanak could not have refused halal meat during his travels to Mecca. Inder argued that Guru Nanak would have had to follow Muslim norms and eaten out of shared utensils in order to join the Hajj pilgrimage to Mecca.

    On the topic of meat eating, Inder contended that it was foolishness to discuss the topic since the Guru Granth refers to both those who argue in favor and those who argue against as moorakh (foolish).

    Kulbir arrived at the conclusion that Inder's wording portrayed Guru Nanak as a coward who had succumbed to Muslim pressure and eaten halal meat and that the wording ought to be modified. It seems Ghagga was pressured into agreeing.

    Naam Simran
    ###########

    After all of the above, the debate finally reached the main topic at hand, i.e. Kulbir's objection to Inder's inclusion of naam simran (the recitation of a specific mantra or phrase) in his list of deceitful activities currently prevalent in the Sikh Panth. The reference was to Inder's essay 'Naam Simran Ik Moorakh Dhandha' (Naam Simran, a Foolish Enterprise).

    Inder clarified that his critique of naam simran was directed at the prevalent practice of parroting certain phrases and sentences without understanding their meanings or taking the time to appreciate their import. He said that the Sikh Panth should have been at great heights by now if the thousands of unattended akhand paths (continuous recitations) had been beneficial.

    Inder asked why the Gurus had bothered to write such a comprehensive Guru Granth if it were enough to do naam simran and merely recite a choice phrase.

    Here Kulbir's request was more extreme, i.e. that the entire essay be withdrawn. Inder was willing only to modify the essay's title.

    There was no agreement and the discussion began to go in circles. Kulbir claimed that many of Sikhism's ideas were common to other religions. He said that what truly distinguished Sikhism from other religions was naam simran, the very concept that Inder appeared to be critiquing.

    The crux of most arguments appeared to be Kulbir's unwillingness to accept an alternate interpretation of the words and ideas contained in the Guru Granth. He insisted only one interpretation was valid.

    Inder emphasised the need for vichaar (contemplation) rather than naam simran.

    As things reached boiling point, Kulbir insisted that Inder's attack on naam simran was an attack on the very foundation of Sikhism. Inder took exception to Kulbir's suggestion that Inder's essay had provided Sikhism with a shoe-beating. To his credit, Kulbir instantly apologized.

    Apparently, the two had agreed to use Sahib Singh's interpretations as standard. However, at one point there was some disagreement when Kulbir wanted to use an interpretation by Harbans Singh.

    Finally, agreement was reached that Inder would acknowledge in his essay the Sikh Rahit Maryada's stipulation that a Sikh must perform naam simran as part of his/her daily regiment.

    Karaamaat
    #########

    Next, there was discussion on karaamaat (magical powers). Inder suggested that no magical powers were required since the Gurus had taught Sikhs such bravery that allowed a handful to resist hundreds of thousands of Mughals at the fort of Chamkaur. This, Inder emphasised, was in contrast to how a handful of Mughals had previously invaded and occupied a land of millions.

    Inder argued that if the Gurus had alternate magical powers they would have used them to prevent all negative occurrences such as the persecution of Sikhs by Mughals. Kulbir responded that the Gurus did not use their powers to prevent certain negative occurrences for reasons mere humans cannot fathom. Inder scoffed at the futility of discussing matters that had been acknowledged as unfathomable.

    Kulbir argued that Sikhism was against individuals using magical powers to, for example, grant sons to women. He asserted, however, that it was okay to beckon magical powers of the sangat to secure the birth of a child. Inder asked why former S.G.P.C. President Gurcharan Singh Tohra had no children and why current Akal Takht Jathedar Joginder Singh Vedanti has no son despite the countless prayers offered by them and by others on their behalf.

    Conclusion
    ##########

    At various stages during the discussion, while Kulbir seemed inclined to beat a dead horse, Inder seemed willing to acknowledge that perhaps it was best to disagree and move on.

    Even though Kulbir had stated at the start of the discussion that there was to be no winner or loser, The Panthic Weekly report on October 11, 2006 was titled 'Inder Ghagga Loses Debates to Panthic Singhs in Toronto.' The report also fails to use Singh with Inder's name.

    Overall, the discussion was refreshingly civil despite some very controversial topics. Apparently, Kulbir's supporters outnumbered Inder's supporters and broke the rule of five attendees from each side. Despite that, for the most part, the gathering honored the rule to allow only Inder and Kulbir to speak. Although voices were raised often and tempers flared occasionally, the situation was not allowed to get out of hand. Inder, Kulbir, the organizers and other attendees ought be congratulated accordingly.

    =====

    Hyper-linked version with photos:

    The Sikh Times - News and Analysis - Inder Singh Ghagga Excommunicated

    =====<br /><br />
    ----------------------------------------<br />

    ----------------------------------------<br />
     
  7. vijaydeep Singh

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    Re: Inder Singh Ghagga Excommunicated

    Gurfateh

    Some guys tend to loose control on self if for long meat is not provided.So they may eat Halal.Some due to getting intiemdation by Muslims or just to act like thier lesser brothers can eat Halal.

    But if they Think that First Master could do that in Mecca as an adjustment or due to Prachar ,then they can tommorw say first Master may have got circumsnetion.

    As Sant Kabeer ji oppose Circumsention does he oppses Halal also.Das did idscuused that it is due to Duja Bhav that life is in blood and not in flesh but our Akal is in all.So Halal is not as per Gurmat.

    Guru had power to carry out Jhatka of any animal at Mecca and let Muslim also eat with him,the same there.If he could do this at Kurukshetra in Hindus,then why should he be afraid of Muslims.When he can call Baber ,the Jaber.
     
  8. bodhi

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    Re: Inder Singh Ghagga Excommunicated

    Sat Sri Akal to all.

    Is there any authentic web resource describing Sri Guru Nanak Devji's travels, especially into Mecca?

    As we know it, Muslims have always barred all non-Muslims (kafirs as they call us) from entering Mecaa. I am just eager to understand how Sri Guruji actually entered Mecca. Did Mullas not notice or object?

    Dear brother Vijaydeep Ji, is there some evidence about what you have mentioned about Sri Guruji carrying out "jhatka" in Mecca? It is interesting if it were true because slaughtering animals (even halal) in Mecca is strictly prohibited by Muslims.

    Unless there is some sound evidence to show otherwise, Sri Guru Nanakji and all other saints we has been blessed with have preferred to be vegetarians including even Muslim Sufi saints. But I am ready to learn if I am wrong.
     
  9. husanmaurkhalsa

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    Re: Inder Singh Ghagga Excommunicated

    Waheguruji Ka Khalsa
    Waheguruji Ki Fateh

    That was the question in my mind
    If Guru Nanak Dev ji entered mecca there should be some description
    i have heard from muslims that people, there at mecca make it sure that no non-muslim can enter mecca. They prohibit entry of non-muslim even in the city in hajj days.

    I am eager to know. Or maybe Guruji didn't entered mecca (building) but just talked to kazis there?
     
  10. vijaydeep Singh

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    Re: Inder Singh Ghagga Excommunicated

    Gurfateh

    As we know that at Puri only Hindus are allowed and Guru Ji did go there.so at that time much before idiot Wahabis were founded who now rule Saudia Areibay and spread the lies that non Muslims are not allowed in mecca.At that time as a Great Peer or Sufi,It is veryly possible that Guru need to be allowed.

    There have been Hindu sufis(like Sufi Sunder Das) and they without being Muslims were also verymuch respected.

    Das wanted to poss an other question.As per present Wahabi tradition as Ghagga sahib said that people have to eat togather.So there is another traditon.ONE HAS TO SHAVE OFF HIS HEAD ON HAJJ.So should this be another excuse for these missioanries to have hair cut?As they try to find excuse to have Halal.

    no offence to anyone.
     
  11. bodhi

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    Re: Inder Singh Ghagga Excommunicated

    Bhai Vijaydeep Ji, SSA.

    In my humble opinion, the contexts of Puri and Mecca are different, beyond comparision.

    While Hindus prodly consider Sri Guru Ji to have been a great Hindu, Muslims don't claim Sri Guru Ji as a Muslim. Considering this Hindu position, no Hindu would have objected to Sri Guruji going to Puri, just like no Hindu would object to Sikhs going into any Hindu temple today. (I am just referring to the difference of Hindu and Muslim points of view on Sri Guru ji. I did not mean to say whether or not He was a Hindu).

    However Mecca is different. By no means can the examples of Puri and Mecca be compared. As per my understanding of Islamic history, ever since the days of Mohammed's victory of Mecca, all non-muslims were banished from Mecca and not allowed to enter that city, as they say non-muslims will 'pollute' it. So it is since the very birth of Islam, and not a recent wahabi contribution.
     
  12. GURVINDER

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    Re: Inder Singh Ghagga Excommunicated

    inder singh gagga is an live example people who want to destroy the faith of young generation as he is a professor of sikh missionary college he had misguided many young sikh students thise person should be debarred from evry gurudwara of india as well as abroad by akal takht
     
  13. GURVINDER

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    Re: S. Inder Singh Ji Ghagga called to Akal Takhat

    Guru Fateh . It’s very sad to read about this letter on the name of Mr. Ghagga by our respected Jathadar Sahib. It is equally very regretful that our own brothers (who speak about Gurbani and Our History from their point of view) are not abstaining from saying things that further divide our already divided Sikh nation. On the other side Jathadar Sahib should have given them a chance to explain their side of the story before Sangat is asked to segregate them without knowing anything. Even murderers are given a chance to explain their side before they are proven guilty. I do not see any good behavior on the part of complaining party as I heard of it from my close friends. How dare we do such things in the presence of Guru Granth Sahib Ji. I respect our higher authorities but we are lowering the respect of Akal Thakat Sahib by seeing Hukamnama’s issued on these small issues, which can be resolved locally. Once again I pray that none of us do anything in Sangat that causes a split among our Sikh brothers and sisters.
     
  14. GURVINDER

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    Re: S. Inder Singh Ji Ghagga called to Akal Takhat

    Guru Fateh . It’s very sad to read about this letter on the name of Mr. Ghagga by our respected Jathadar Sahib. It is equally very regretful that our own brothers (who speak about Gurbani and Our History from their point of view) are not abstaining from saying things that further divide our already divided Sikh nation. On the other side Jathadar Sahib should have given them a chance to explain their side of the story before Sangat is asked to segregate them without knowing anything. Even murderers are given a chance to explain their side before they are proven guilty. I do not see any good behavior on the part of complaining party as I heard of it from my close friends. How dare we do such things in the presence of Guru Granth Sahib Ji. I respect our higher authorities but we are lowering the respect of Akal Thakat Sahib by seeing Hukamnama’s issued on these small issues, which can be resolved locally. Once again I pray that none of us do anything in Sangat that causes a split among our Sikh brothers and sisters.
    IT IS VERY SAID TO SEE THAT A PERSON WHO IS BOYCOTTING THE SIKHISMS AND GURU IS GIVEN RESPECT BY OVER BROTHER
    HAKIMPURIA HE IS SAYING THAT GHAGGA SHOULD BE GIVEN A CHANCE TO PROVE HIMSELF. MY DEAR FRIEND'S A PERSON WHO IS GIVING SUCH A HAARSH SPEECH AGAINST OUR GURU'S SHOULD NOT SEEN BY AN EYE OF
    SYMPATHY,HE SHOULD BE GIVEN SEVERE PUNISHMENT FOR HIS CRIME
     
  15. vijaydeep Singh

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    Re: Inder Singh Ghagga Excommunicated

    Gurfateh

    Dear Bro Bodhi Ji,

    Das would like to add a pont over here.

    Say at preseent Coomon Sikhs consider Lavan from right to left Circumvention as per Guru Jis times.

    Nihungs and Namdhairs say that it iis more due to propoganda after Nirankaris influence while correct is Left to right.

    So thre could be Shias and Sufis,who still behold Guru Nanakdev Maharaj Ji as Muslim and befoe Wahaibs over took ruling in Mecca and destroyed Tomb related to Prophet(PBUH)(it is mentioned in Bhai Bala Janam Sakhi).They have sperad lies that non Muslims are not Allowed in Holy Mecca.

    Guru is still deemed as Muslim by Sipleeds(thier place is near Baghdad Railway stations) and in case he was not considered as Muslim,he was to be allowed as per old tradtions into Holy Mecca.As Muslim means who surreneders to will of Allah.

    Then coming back to Puri thing.There are some Hindu temples where Sikhs are not allowed or they can no go.Say there is temple where one has to go with head uncovered.

    Present day logic that ony Muslims are allowed in Mecca is based upon lies spread about holy Mecca after Wahaibs toook over Saudi Kingdom.Thats what das trys to convey.Sufis or Shias are not as such particular.The History of present so called Islam is crrupted in the same manner the way Kala Afghana gruops wants to crupot our History.

    Islam is very libral.But ot Wahabism.Gurmat is Islam but not Kala Afghanaism.
     
  16. tatkhalsa

    tatkhalsa
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    ghagga should not be excommunicated, if a person is not allowed 2 challenge and openly think of sikhi in a different school of thought we have lost our principles of beingh SIKHS (learners) WJKK WJKF

    instead of taking extreme views on board sangat should remain cool and calm and listen to professor jis speechs in order to gain a higher knowledge of our sikhi
     
  17. tatkhalsa

    tatkhalsa
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    Re: S. Inder Singh Ji Ghagga called to Akal Takhat

    veer ji,

    have u heard inder singhs tapes?
    do u fully understand what he is saying?
    can you relate these topics to everyday life?

    by your previous comments i see you cannot. explain to me where ghagga insults our gurus. i myself am an amritdhari singh, however i disagree with ppl being ''thrown'' out of a religion which is seen in countries such as britain as a nation. for questioning and expanding his knowing gian... joginder vedanti is not a thinking man which has been clearly shown, i have spoken 2 badal sahib and vedanti personally in a previous trip 2 panjab, you would be shocked to c how un-knowledgable these ppl r who lead our nation.
    ghagga should be questioned if ppl disagree with him, he should be debated but not in a situation where he is attacked by taksalis for saying something which is simply clear to any half decent educated man... amritdhari or not?... singho our kirpana are not here 2 undermime our non-amridhari brothers.... they are here to show that we r our gurus thinking singhs who attempt to gain gian in any way or form possible...
    WJKK WJKF
     
  18. GURVINDER

    GURVINDER
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  19. tatkhalsa

    tatkhalsa
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    Re: S. Inder Singh Ji Ghagga called to Akal Takhat

    veer ji,

    iv read and USED to follow many of the articles in panthic weekly they have lately become highly biased against something which is not a sect or cult of sikhi just another school of thought... inder singh ghagga condemns a supersticious thinking which is clearly evident that our guru jis did not want us to follow, however Late respected baba thakur singh ji, in his later years began to openly confess that he was 'seeing dead people' and often told his followers to use 'dhoof' (incense sticks) in order to rid of these, this is clearly against the basic sikh principles.
    I ask you to look at our guru jis not as gods, but as messengers of the word of god,,, in a human form,,,therefore everything experienced by our guru jis was extremely spiritual human experiences... there is no valid sense in some beliefs which people have adopted... which clearly were not set by our gurus..

    SINGHO LETS STAY OPEN TO NEW THOUGHT AND KEEP OUR PANTH PURE... I ASK YOU TO THINK OVER THIS QUESTION, I AM HIGHLY ANTI- KALA AFGHANA,, YET SOME OF HIS POINTS ARE INTERESTING AND HIGHLY DEBATABLE... I AM A DEVOUT SINGH AND MY FAMILY HAS GIVEN A GREAT SACRIFICE SINCE THE 1984 HOLOCAUST... EVEN TODAY I AM STILL INVOLVED IN MANY SIKH CHARITIES AND ORGANISE MANY KIRTAN EVENTS... HOWEVER, HAVE WE LOST OUR PRINCIPLE OF BEING SIKHS (LEARNERS) IF WE ARE NOT ALLOWING A MAN TO EXPRESS HIS VIEWS?... AND EVEN IF GHAGGA IS WRONG, OUR TAKSALI VEERS HAVE NO JUSTIFICATION IN SNATCHING A MICROPHONE OF GHAGGA AS A 5 YEAR OLD CHILD WOULD DO... I MYSELF TIE A DHUMALLA AND WEAR A NEELA CHOLA,, THIS DOES NOT GIVE ME ANY AUTHORITY OVER MY SINGHS, I AM A SLAVE TO MY GURU AND I SHALL STAY THIS WAY I WOULD NEVER THINK OF ATTACKING OR PROVOKING AN INITIAL ATTACK ON A BROTHER IN THE HAZOOREE OF SRI GURU GRANTH SAHIB JI MAHARAJ...

    LETS KEEP THE DEBATE GOING... LET GHAGGA SPEAK,,,!

    WJKK WJKF
     
  20. vijaydeep Singh

    vijaydeep Singh
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    Re: S. Inder Singh Ji Ghagga called to Akal Takhat

    Gurfateh

    Das here agrees more to tatkhalsa Ji.

    We need to put our side(both das's and Gurvinder Singh Ji's) idelogically and prove it logiaclly.If other side fails to justify the stand then only ties can be snapped.

    Just secternal bias should not work.Das would like to say that some pro panthic.org peopl are very much not liking Sant Ji of Dhadrian Wale.So that does not justify them to force Sant Ji out of Faith.
     
  21. vijaydeep Singh

    vijaydeep Singh
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    Re: Inder Singh Ghagga Excommunicated

    Gurfateh

    Das did some anlysis and does come with more clarification with Puir thing.

    At present a person born in Hindu family is only allowed at Puri.A convertee from other faiths to Hinduism or reconvertee to hinduism is not allowed as well.

    There could be a big paradox that westeners from ISKON are also allowed in.
    But in past in most Hindu temples lower castes were not allowed(This could be there in some places).Barber whenever had to carry out religeous duty to shave head use to sit outside the temple.

    due to idols at Darbar Sahib not long before lower castes were not allowe d and by mercy of Akal,we at present have thrown both idols and caste off the Darbar Sahib.

    Only three Dvija/DIJ or Dvijana people were allowed in tmeple.Dvijanma is one who is first born from mother and then into faith via Ygyopweet or Janeu.At the time of Guru only so called Brahmin,Kshatryas and Vaishyas were allowed in temple ,who had janeu/sacred thread or Yagyopaweet.

    So there seems no possiblity that Guru had that thread which could have made Pandits behold him as Hindu.other then Thread two more things ie Tilaks and Dhoti is also mark of Dij.which guru may not have had.Otherwise if Pandits have asked him about his parents Castes,he could hve told them but then also anyone can wear cared thread and can tell about some high caste paerntage,which can be verfied from Bhat Bahis(records of visiters with brahmins at pilgrimage centres).

    So last thing remains is that Pandits amy ask some verse from scriptrues to verfy if perosn is DIj or not.And only after Nirmalas that lower caste got accsess to scriptures.

    so should we behold that Guru should have inpersonated as Hindu,with Thrre Marks of Tilak,Janeu and Dhoti or told that he is Khatrie from Punajb or said some verse to prove himself as Dij.

    answer is no NO!

    Guru had used logic and knwoledge to prove caste based thing not as per sprituality and faith(including Holy Vedas) and as respect,he could have been called at Puri Temple.Same could be seeen as at Mecca.
     

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