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Should Sikhs Who Have Only One Guru Visit Hazur Sahib

Discussion in 'Hard Talk' started by roab1, Dec 23, 2009.

  1. roab1

    roab1
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    So now the cat is out of the bag. On another forum Dasam Granth is openly being addressed as sri Guru Dasam Granth Sahib. The admin is openly supporting Dasam Granth as Guru of Sikhs (although they themselves might be just a jatha). And another member is talking about having a discussion with Hazuri Sikhs to know their history in right perspective. In my opinion, a taliban type group is gonna form soon although it may take years or decades to show any strains in present Sikhism and for majority of Sikhs Gurdware are going to lose any importance.

    My question is

    1. i have been wanting to visit Hazur sahib for a long time. But now i dont feel like going and being part of this stupid cult like practises. I don't even feel like reciting chaupai sahib now which i have done for years. I won't support Panthic Jathebandis anymore. and wait till our enemies get their hands on charitars and start publishing garbage about Guru Gobind Singh like anti-muslims do on Muhammed.

    I am afriad my children when i have them will see Guru Gobind Singh in totally different perspective than how i see him unless ofcourse i brainwash them right from the beginning.
     
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  3. harbansj24

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    roab1 ji,

    Anti Muslims started talking against Mohammad only when they perceived a threat to world peace from Islamic fundamentalist and it was only Muslims fundamentalist who started quoting Mohammad out of context to justify their nefarious activities.

    All Hindu Gods and Goddesses are openly promiscuous but that does not bother the Hindus a bit.

    So much literature is being published about Jesus's affair with Magdalene and her offspring or the hoax about virgin birth of Christ or the hoax of Shroud of Turin but that has not affected Christians.

    So as long as Sikhs do not behave like Muslim fundamentalist, they have nothing to fear.

    Such controversies abound in every religion and their is nothing to fear as long as we behave sensibly.
     
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  4. spnadmin

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    I actually agree with both of you -- strange though, but you are not really on opposite sides of this question.

    There is a growing attachment to Brahminism within Sikhi -- e.g., doing tilak with goat's blood of Sri Guru Granth Sahib in Darshan or on weapons, and all of that. It is upsetting given Guru Nanak's message of liberation from these things. And roab1 ji I am with you on this point -- much of this fanfare is purely historical nostalgia "for the good old days" and it completely distorts the message of Guru Gobind Singh, and does an injustice.

    But has harbhansj24 made an excellent point? These things cannot really alter your understanding, and therefore cannot really affect someone in any significant way, if the mind is clear to begin with. That is my view too. I share it.

    It is of course more difficult explaining this to children. roab1 ji as a parent does not want to see his/her children being drawn mindlessly into ritualistic worlds of religious experience, or sangats with talibanistic mindsets. That is the more difficult problem -- how to help children understand that although others are easily influenced, they can make better choices.
     
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  5. Tejwant Singh

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    raob1 ji,

    Guru Fateh.

    Hazur Sahib is a historical Gurdwara. It has Sikh history that goes with it. So, there is nothing wrong in visiting historical Gurdwaras with your family so they can also learn about Sikh history and the interesting part is that Sikh historical Gurdwaras are all over India and beyond.

    I remember when I was in my early teens and a bit before that, our parents used to load us in a car and we used to visit the historical Gurdwaras during every summer. It used to be a blast.

    I personally have never been to Hazur Sahib but if you can separate the non- Gurmat rituals which are many, from its history, I am sure it will be a learning experience and a wonderful adventure for you and your family.

    Let me share with you one non Gurmat ritual as it was told by my cousin who is a physician and a very devout Sikh. She said that some Sikhs go around a roundabout on horses but there is one horse that has only a saddle on it and it is believed to be from the same family ( breed) of the blue stallion - Neela Ghorah- of Guru Gobind Singh ji. This horse while running around sweats the most and people claim the reason of its sweating is because Guru Gobind Singh ji is riding it.

    When my cousin told me this, she was very serious and believed in it and every time she has the chance, she repeats the story. This is what blind faith does. It makes people blind.

    I am all for visiting historical Gurdwaras, but I vehemently oppose going to Hem Kunt because its " history" is all cooked up by some so called Sikh Scholars, perhaps more for the reason of Me-ism than about One-ism which is taught to us in SGGS, our only Guru.

    So, enjoy your journey.

    Regards

    Tejwant Singh
     
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  6. Randip Singh

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    The Dasam Granth issue is a seperate issue from the Hazuri Sikh issue.

    Dasam Granth

    The Dasam Granth is a valuable document in terms of setting the scene and historical context the Khalsa was created. It gives us an insight into the lore, literature and prose of the time. The problem is cults/sect/jathas like AKJ, Namdhari etc elevating it to the same level as Bani.

    Hazoori Sikhs


    The Hazoori Sikhs are probably the closest thing we have to what Sikhi was like 300 years ago. They have remained unpolluted from the Vaishno-Sect-Jatha influences in Punjab. They are the direct descendants of warriors who accompanied Guru Gobind Singh Ji.


    They do not have Punjabi hangups on caste, they maintain a VERY strong martial tradition, they know how to fight, they do not argue over the meat/vege issue and do Jhatka routinely, the 5k's are honoured and seen as a sign of manliness, they are gentle yet ferocious. They even maintain tradition like Shastar Tilak of that time.
     
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  7. roab1

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    i have no words right now.

    :wah::wah::wah::wah:
     
  8. Randip Singh

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    You had some words because you wrote "i have no words right now."
     
  9. spnadmin

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    Randip ji

    I don't agree, but perhaps I don't understand what you mean when you say,

    "Dasam Granth
    The Dasam Granth is a valuable document in terms of setting the scene and historical context the Khalsa was created. It gives us an insight into the lore, literature and prose of the time."


    Would you elaborate? The historical value of Dasam Granth seems painfully compromised in terms of the provenance of the texts within it. Though each individual text may have some historical merit, together as a granth they represent the work of a committee that gave itself permission to create a Dasam Granth from a variety of 4 parallel granths, none of which matched, and 3 of which did not even include the Zafaranama. The committee, Sodhak committee, conducted its work between 1900 and 1903. Maybe if you provide more detail I will get it.
     
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  10. roab1

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    If the granth was compiled by Guru Gobind Singh then there would be no question about raising any issue about it. The fact is there is no source which points to another granth besides the Guru Granth being given any 'status' to be worshipped or any injuction by Guru Gobind Singh about it. Let us assume that Bhai Mani Singh compiled it. Was he acting alone or with assistence? Who gave him that authority to compile a granth to be elevated to the level of Guru Granth? Now if we assume that 'Khalsa' acting as 'Guru' compiled and decided to elevate it to highest position then where is the 'Gurmata' or 'hukamnana' regarding that? And ceratinly Bhai Mani was a Sikh of the highest order but he had no authority to make any binding decision about Sikhi, which he never did. If some Jatha wants to show utmost respect to anything connected with Guru Gobind Singh than i think we would fall short of space if every group of determined individual started behaving in same manner. Lets say me and my family want to 'elevate' our Hukamname of Gurus and start doing parkash of them. They are from the mouth of guru and in their own hand so why not? If Bhai Randhir Singh had no faith in raagmala and questioned long held and cherished traditions of the Khalsa, then why are his followers name calling those who follow same path that their founder followed, albeit on a larger scale?:wah:
     
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  11. spnadmin

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    Actually a better name for Dasam Granth would be "Sodhak Granth." The Sodhak Committee named the granth "Dasam" once its work was done. The birs which preceded it in history went by different names.
     
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  12. Hardip Singh

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    I request the admin to start a new thread regarding Hemkunt's history. It will be highly educational step by letting the sangat know the truth.
     
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  13. spnadmin

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    I would be glad to start a thread Hardip ji. However, someone has to provide some content to get started. If you send me a url, I will post the article and we will have a new thread.
     
  14. harbansj24

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    Narayanjot ji,

    In my IMHO it will be a great tragedy if "DG" which you rightly say is a compilation of different sets of poetry is dumped just on the ground of it not being a document which reflects history or it not being authored or approved by Dasam Pita. There is little doubt that it is not a document that reflects rational history but it cannot be authoritatively ruled that Guruji had nothing to do with it or had no knowledge about it. Whatever it may not be, it definitely is agreat piece of poetry that deserves to be treasured for its shear artistic value.
    But obviously it cannot be elevated to the status of a Guru. Instead of just sticking to this narrow and simple point of difference, we Sikhs have unnecessarrily complicated the it by bringing in all sorts of extraneous issues.

    Every great civilization has brought forth its own epics which have nothing to do with actual history but they are treasured since besides being a great piece of art they point to how a culture evolved, their folklore etc.

    Hemkunt Sahib may not be a place which reflects true History, but coincidently it matches exactly with description given in Bachittar Natak. Whoever has visited it cannot fail to be just overwhelmed by fabulous sight that he beholds. Can it not be taken as a celebration of the work of art of Bachittar Natak?
    Have not the Greek epics produced monuments in celebration of their great epics? Have not the epics of Mahabharat and Ramayan produced great awe inspiring works of art especially in South India?

    Yes, there can be no compromise on the issue that only SGGS is our Guru and DG cannot be equal to it.
    Other issues can easily be settled if approached sensibly.
     
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  15. spnadmin

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    The title of the thread is Should Sikhs Who Have Only One Guru Visit Hazur Sahib. I for one see no problem with visiting Hazur Sahib. Why not?

    The poetic force of Dasam Granth is unmistakable. But that wasn't the point of the thread-starter.
     
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  16. Gyani Jarnail Singh

    Gyani Jarnail Singh Malaysia
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    the crux of the problem is a SIKH only bows to ONE...His GURU..and that is SGGS.
    Now if there happens to be another book so placed that a SIKH 'bowing" to His One and Only GURU also inadvertently has to bow to the book so placed..is that RIGHT ?? Sometimes there are FAKE PICTURES of Guru Sahibs also placed so that a person bowing to SGGS also bows to them..and THAT is IDOL WORSHIP.
    AS Long as another book/picture is so placed that I have to bow to it when I ONLY want to Bow to SGGS..I will avoid that situation. Strictly my own private view...so no squabbling necessary.:happysingh:
     
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  17. Tejwant Singh

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    Harbans ji,

    Guru Fateh.

    You write:

    I agree with your first part of the statement but I am puzzled about your claim of the latter in the first paragraph above.

    Do you mean Guru Gobind Singh ji was there- the place called Hemkunt- in his previous reincarnation, (that is what Bachitar Natak claims and it also claims that Guru Gobind Singh penned that himself), which is neither a Gurmat tenet nor is it a Sikhi ideal but a Hindu philosophy based on mythology?

    It seems a bit far fetched and quite insulting to Guru Gobind Singh ji -who finalised Khalsa Panth - that he would utter these words about himself which are full of Me-ism and are totally based on Hindu mythology.

    We all very well know that Sikhi was founded on One-ism.

    Yes, the WOW! factor of Ik Ong Kaar is omnipresent and is manifested all over and around us on this little speck of sand called the Earth and beyond. Guru Nanak himself was awestruck when He explained this AWE! & WOW! factor in a very poetic and precise manner.

    In Jap ji- Pataalan pataal lakh,Agaasan agaas-. There are innummerous planets and many many Milky ways. Coincidentally, we found another Milky Way through the telescope named Indira in 1992.

    Now, claiming " but coincidentally it matches exactly with description given in Bachittar Natak." is taking a bit too far in one's imagination.

    Don't you think so?

    I am sure many places in this world can be described and may look "exactly the same" as the place where Hemkunt is located. But it will not happen because the objective here was to make the ends justify the means. Any mythology can be proven to the ones who believe in it, because of the blinders it demands from the believers and the parochial mindedness to justify the means as they have the ends in their hands from some mythological story which is totally against the Gurmat ideals given to us in SGGS, our Only Guru.

    If one visits the alps, the Scandanvian countries with fjords, Bariloche and other beautiful mountains in Chile and in other parts of South America, Africa and even in other corners of India, I am sure one can find "exactly the same" places as mentioned in the Bachiter Natak.

    This is my personal opinion about why this mythology became famous, and I may be wrong.

    It is because of the Hindu concept that all the sages went to the snowy mountains to "find" God and meditated there although India is considererd a tropical country. If these so called sages had gone to the areas where the temperature is pleasant, hence enjoyable all year around, where fauna and flora is abundant, where the Sangam of the AWE & WOW factor is nitidly shown and hence is shone with many waterfalls and other things, and if that had become the part of Bachitar Natak, I am sure people would have gone to other places in the southern or many other parts of India which offer the same scenario and would have found the " exact" place. As they would in many more parts of the world because there are more tropical forests left than the glacier mountains.

    Foz de Iguacu- water falls which are part of Brasil, Argentina and Paraguay in the southern part of the continent are amazingly awe inspiring and the same goes for the Amazon basin up north ( I was fortunate enough to visit the both and many glacier countries both in Europe and in South America), and I am sure there are many, many other places which still exist and no man has ventured in them yet. National Geographic channel may be of a great help to see the places with flora and fauna which were recently discovered and may look " exactly the same" as mentioned in the Bachitar Natak.

    So, the AWE & the WOW factor of Ik Ong Kaar is omnipresent and is all around us.

    But, Gurbani teaches us in many places that as we have seen this AWE & WOW factor on the outside, let us discover the same within and we are fortunate enough to have the Blue print, the Road Map and the GPS in SGGS, our only Guru.

    Many who visit Hemkunt, pridefully and I am sure with total sincerity utter the verse,

    " Jithe jai bhayei, merah Satguru, sou thaan suhavah Ram Rajaehey".

    But the sad part is that the meaning of the above verse is not about the book called SGGS at Hem Kunt but about ITS teachings. It has to be a part of all us so that our own inner space can breed goodness within so that it can be shared with others.

    This is the way I see the meaning of the verse:

    "Whichever place my Satguru- the True Teacher - Ik Ong Kaar- dwells at, that place becomes blessed, divine, awesome, motivating, marching ahead, doing good abode."

    The only THAAN SUHAVAH can be built, erected, cultivated is within with the help of SGGS, our only Guru- our only Blue Print, our only Road Map and last but not the least, our only GPS.

    So, let us make use of this. Our Gurus demand that from us.

    The survival of Khalsa Panth which was started by Guru Nanak and the finishing touches were put by Guru Gobind Singh depends on this.

    It does not depend on any meaningless slogans or on any man made myths.

    Tejwant Singh
     
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  18. Uniqsha

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    Wahe guru JI ka khalsa,
    Wahe guru ji ki fateh,

    Hazur Sahib is a historical Gurdwara. It has Sikh history that goes with it. So, there is nothing wrong in visiting historical Gurdwaras with your family so they can also learn about Sikh history and the interesting part is that Sikh historical Gurdwaras are all over India and beyond.
    So we should visit
    Uniqsha:yes:
     
  19. roab1

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    www(put DOT here)flickr.com/photos/ramansingh/4203367228/

    isn't the jathedar a heretic? and all his followers? they are not sikhs but a sect like ravidasi namdhari etc. Ravidasi see Ravidas as Guru which he is not, Namdharis have a living Guru which he is not, and the present jathedar of hazur sahib and all his followers hold DG as Guru which it is not. Now i am also waiting for die hard supporter of this new sect and his group who all along have screamed that 'Nobody is elevating DG to status of Guru' to respond as they have mysteriously kept quiet on this. Consider the recent attempts to tamper with Nanakshahi calendar and events surrounding prof. Darshan Singh and recent disturbances in Punjab led by followers of Guru DG leads to something very fishy in my opinion. Sikhs need to be beware. The cat is out of the bag. Don't follow heretics as even ashutosh professess that only he is true Khalsa.
     
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  20. harbansj24

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    Tejwant ji and Narayanjot ji,

    I agree with much of what both of you say.

    It has however never been my contention that just because Hemkunt Sahib matches with the description in Bachittar natak, it automatically gets authenticated as place where Guru ji did penance in his previous birth. All I said was that it can be taken as celebration of great piece of poetry of Bachittar Natak.
    No one has got evidence either way if Guruji had knowledge of it. It is quite likely that he did have and that is why he very consciously and deliberately left it out of SGGS. As I have repeated a number of times that quite possibly he would have considered it as top class piece of art with its own use but not fit enough to be put in SGGS and considered as our spiritual Guru. It is as simple as that.
    All the great epics of the world depict life as it existed in those times with all its goodness, ugliness, manipulations, deviousness, scandalous behaviour etc and all of them have inspired great work of art. AND NONE OF THEM DEPICT ACTUAL HISTORY.
    INMO IF WE TOO START THINKING IN THE DIRECTION THAT DG NEED NOT REPRESENT ACTUAL EVENTS AND IS AS JUST AN ARTISTIC DEPICTION OF COMPLEXITIES IN THE LIFE OF AN ORDINARY MORTAL, then maybe we can make beginning in resolving this complex problem which Sikhs find themselves in.

    BTW, I am just back from Amritsar, and much of the even educated junta does not understand what the fuss is all about and even those who have been following it, say that it is an entirely avoidable controversy. Everyone seemed to be absolutely certain that SGGS is our only Guru and that Guruji would have had very valid reasons not to include the bani of DG in SGGS.

    Gurfateh

    Harbans Singh
     
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  21. spnadmin

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    harbhansj ji


    We seem closer in perspective on more points than we have had in recent times. I just want to make 2 remarks.


    I cannot think of one example of "goodness" bestowed by Greek gods that you mention in an earlier post. Their effect was to exact tribute from humans and not bestow mercy. Durga and her affiliate devtas in the contested books of DG behave themselves imho a notch better actually. The great temples and literature created in their praise, as you also pointed out a few posts back, were completed by peoples who were in their own minds re-telling their ancestral histories and passing them down one generation to the next. I see this as a form of ancestor worship from which our Gurus freed us.

    As for the unnecessary controversy over Professor Darshan Singh -- it is unnecessary. But at what point did a doctrinal difference of opinion rise to this controversy so full of hatred? Who fanned the flames? Why did the jathedars allow themselves to be sucked into it? And what btw did the Amaritsar intellectuals do to help resolve matters?
     
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