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Short-hair Ban On Gurudwara Marriages

Sep 11, 2005
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Dear Das ji ,

As Kabir has Rightly said,

Pothi Padr Padr Jag Mua , Pandit Bhaya na koi .
Dhai Aksar Prem ka padre so Pandi Hoye .



Let Us

Let the invisible love of God,
Emanate from our each action.

Let us seek out and love,
He who needs us.

Let us listen and divide,
The sorrows of the aggreived.

Let us inspire and boost,
The entho of the collapsed.

Let us stand and be there,
In the hour of need.

Let us be more humane,
For the welfare of this world.

Let us, think the world of,
HE WHO lives within each of us.

Devine Sanative
7:47 AM
22/07/2004

entho=enthusiasm
en=God, thesos =within
think the world of=to like or admire greatly.
 

GushK

SPNer
Oct 5, 2004
45
0
44
London
harpreet kaur said:
sat sri akal
it is fanticisim like this that puts sikhisim two steps back when it takes one step forward, what will they do next, put a ban on the entrance of anyone who is a mona sikh? no doublt i agree if u are a sikh, and are not embarassed to flaunt your sikhi, then do it all the way, but if u have douts, then why trim and live a lie, get over it, do some soul searching and figure it out once and for all if u are strong enough to be one, thats who a sikh is, an epitome of strength, discipline, honor and virtues with some compassion thrown in, no room for doubts in your beliefs, but does that also mean u must reduce yourself to a level lower than that of islamic fundamentalists who believe anyone outside their religion is a {censored}, a disbeliever, we are targeting our own, look at this situation from the eyes of a three year old and the knowledge of a 70 year old, havent we learnt anything from our past mistakes. there are sikh youth out there who are lost and they need a compassionate hand to guide them not push them away, a little love and compassion can go a long way.



I think this is the very point that dear Vijaydeep and Dr Khalsa have been trying to make.
I think many poeple here are confusing the idea of the general concept of reaching out to the sikh community and making sure people don't
feel alienated or abandoned, with the sacred union of marriage. Both require hugely different levels of commitment and that's the crux of
this issue.
Once one reads and understands the stanzas of the 4 Laavan you will see that the commitment, both to Waheguru and your partner, is almost at
the level of being blessed with Amrit and becoming part of the Khalsa Panth.
If someone needs guidance, wants to do seva, etc etc and be a part of the Sikh community, they are more than welcome to come forward and join in at their leisure. If they change thier mind tomorrow, that's ok too. All it requires is active participation on their part and encouragement from Gurdwara and community.

The issue comes when they decide they want to take it a step further. They wish to be married within the context of the santicty of an Anand
Karaj but then don't want or don't care to live by that commitment. Guru Sahib has given a HUKAM to Sikhs to refrain from cutting their hair.
If they cannot abide to such a SIMPLE request, how can they be trusted to live their lives within the framework graced to us by our Guru's?
Learing to love unconditionally is fine becuase the only requirement is on your own part, but marriage requires commitment from the other
side too. Being married in an Anand Karaj means commiting youself not just to your partner but to Waheguru too and a promising to follow the
Sikhi path.
An interesting example is within my own family. A Distant uncle is getting married soon, to a Gujerati woman and i'm very happy for him.
But he doesn't follow Sikhi at all. His mother is a devout sikh but he has cut his hair, drinks, and had no idea what it means to be Sikh.
I know that for him, the Anand Karaj is just for the sake of having Sikh wedding and by the next day it will be back to normal.
Even my little brother said to me the other day :-

"I feel upset when we go to other weddings and the groom grows his beard for a day or two, then shaves and goes off to a party to get drunk,
now it looks like it's happening in our own family. Maybe he should just have the register wedding, can you say something to him?"

What do I tell my brother? That its ok for my uncle to be married as a Sikh even though he follows none of the tenants of the religion? or
he's a good person really, and that's all that matters, so it's ok to have an Anand Karaj.
Where does that leave the Anand Karaj as an institution designed to encourage and develop your spirituality and sense of commitment?
In that case then, anyone can be married as a Sikh, whether they consider themselves one or not. By the definition given by menbers here,
there's no commitment other than that to your spouse...the rest you can just CHOOSE to follow if you feel like.

Of course no one is going to ban people from entering a Gurdwara because all that requires of them is to just TURN UP and join in if they
want to. This should be actively encouraged. But if they want to then turn around and say that "I am a Sikh" and wish to be married as one,
then they must be prepared to follow those tenants and live as a Sikh too.
 

S|kH

SPNer
Jul 11, 2004
380
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We Are PENN STATE!!
GushK has excellently stated what I meant to say in my original posts.

And, I question one thing to the people who say this ban is also "banning people from entering gurdwara, and throwing kids away from the sikh path"...

Why do you not question the Khalsa Panth when they firmly state that only people who are allowed to take Amrit are people who maintain the 5 K's?

Why is it then...that you do not raise slogans and say that they are furthering children away from being committed to the Sikh path, and that they are practically banning people from entering the gurdwara ?

And why did anyone not say this to Guru Gobind when he demanded it?
 

hpluthera

SPNer
Oct 3, 2005
65
3
Auckland
Dear Jatinder ji

Thanks for your comments but I have to add that Guru Gobind Singh Ji was a Scholar of Persian and Sanskrit and that time was of Ottaman empire and Moghuls in India and the most respected Language of the time was Persian and most repsected dress code was that of the Kings and Ameers of the time and matching their Mannerism to get same respect was the need of the time. Today the most respected language of the world for better communication knowledge exchange and research is English the dress code is westren. The whole world always lived like that. Look at Period of Ramayan and dresses and language. Guru Gobid Singh ji was a very far sighted Visionery who had option to include in the Guru Granth Sahib His banis and Dassam Granth as part of Living Guru he chose not to because he knew that certain aspects of human life (Cultural and Habits) changes with time and progress. Symbols and fashion changes. That was the time when it was fashion to see with respect a person with ling beard and turban as most respected to day in suit tie that to designer and speaking english can attract you in the contemporary society.

Khalsa symbole of Khanda and two Swords around is also of Persian origin our has a chkra in it. So these were contemporary of the time.

Spiritual aspect of Sikhi can not be restricted by the measure of principles and symbols of Khlalsa. Khalsa was a Guru Ki Fauj and should have remain and UNO should be asked to create a Khalsa Regiment as it was indeed the UN like mission of Khalsa with similar code. Keep the Khalsa's Glory in its deed so that the glorified role of Khlas in the today's societ encourage and attract the masses not only the Sikhs to join the Order of Khalsa. Guru nanak Connected people to the One who every one acknowledge the ultimate force of life and preached us and the whole world a common message remember thy name in your heart and do good deeds. So it is beyond the divides of all religion that big is the beauty of Guru Nanak's message. Khalsa is the protector of such beings even at the cost of his own life that was the beauty of Khalsa gifted by Guru Gobind Singh. But putting bans and thnking small that after using Gurudwara for marriage they have shaven and not wore turban is too narrow.
World has two thing permanent Truth and Change and those who refuse to accept repent or fail

let us encourage naam in Gurudwara and Glorify the deeds of Khalsa and their behaviour and participation in good things for human welfare we will win a bigger force of The Order of Khalsa.

Let us build not keep on critising and refuting who wish to take the first small step in the spirit of Gurbani.

Waheguru may grant us all the wisdom to comprehend please take my views in the spirit of debate for getting to the best conclusion these are just my views and not preachings and could be subject to more critical analysis.

regards
HP Luthera


Dear Hpluthera ji


I would like to say something about it . I know that you might be senior then me in age and have known sikhi more than me but there are some points in your post that I dont agree so I thought of sharing with you forgive me I say something that seems inaapropiate may be due to my lack of knowledge as we all here to learn

Imposing a ban seems ridculous to me as well but still I have some feeling that go for the ban I would like to explain it

I dont agree to your point that Khalsa is special force and they were made to protect others and you can just follow what other guru JI has said and Khalsa was just special invention of tenth guru to tackle the situation of that time and does not hold good now . As considred widely by many scholars of sikh faith and personaly by me as well that Khalsa was the final product of formation of SIKHI that started with Guru Nanak Dev ji it was kind of 200 year plus mission which culminated in the formation of sikhi it was the final desired product and not just biproduct of sikh revolution in human history and just to add Rehatnamas which were derived from Bani Of Dasam Pathsha Guru Gobind Singh ji clearly says about the physical appearance of a sikh . All this confusion in our community about what to follow what not has a ROOT in the nonacceptance and ignorance of sikh commnity of the BANI of Guru Gobind Singh ji and this confusion will go on until this issue is resolved

Now I agree with you that Teaching of GuruGranth Sahib is for whole humanity and is and should be available to every body

I agree with you that that by just keeping kakaars some one doesnot become pious then someone who do very good deeds but is not with kakaars . Infact it is good thing infact if somebody who is amritdhari and do some thing antigurmat you point out that this man even being guru ka sikh has done such shameful act . No how will you point out a man who belongs to nothing ( short hair , cut surds ) !! YOu cant ! becuse such man cant be held accountable ( this is what is called NIGURA by Nihang Sikh) for what he do .
So being Gursikh with Kakaars is just Pledging that from now on I will try to follow my gurus teaching and he becomes accountable for what he do
And the beauty of Guru Gobind Singh ji Act of creating khalsa lies in this only you cant hide yourself IF you are guru ka Sikh because such is your appearance and this help you to lead pious life .This is very parallel to situation in our Guru jis Time Many peopel who were not brave enough would just turn their away from guru in difficult times and they will say that they are just hindu not sikh , at the time their enemy was mughal army and in present world the situation is same and now the enemy is Temptaions ( Drugs , Adultery , crime ) of modern civilisation and in such situation as well it is easy for someone who is not following sikh in physical form to faal for for it as he is not accoutable and as every body is doing it then whats wrong in it

Just to make it short physical is the essential for follwing sikh religion as it help you in your spirtual journey and makeds you r accountable to what you do . I agrre with you that people are abusing this thing by just keeping kakaars and doing every thing antigurmat but the good thing is such corrupt people become so visibel to you and you can do something about it but think what of they become invisible and unaccountable for what they they do then it will be more difficult to tacle them



Totally agree with you here but the issue we are disscusing here is different Khalsa Ji We are not disscusing about barring anybody from visting Gurdwara but when they come to marry somebody there , when they try to fool their Guru ji by tying a turban on cut hair , when they try to look like a sikh , when they dont shave for couple of days so that turban does not look odd on face , when the first thing they do after ANAND Karaj is to go and remove their turban and get good shave
do you think that such a person is there to utiliae this oppertunity to lcome close to guru ji ( which their parent failed to do )

Still I wont say that they should be banned as this again anti gurmat but such a weeding hurt me for sure and I think at such a accasion the couple should be counselled and made aware of what they are doing instead of banning them

As compared to this as suggested by Vijaydeep Singh I would welcome marriageds of our hindu brothers in gurdwara as it could be one time chance for them to be close to Guru Ji and make a change in their life

When you Compare the sikh beliefs with islamic beliefs I can see nothing wrong in it

In present day world IF islam has put in bad picture this doesnot mean that ISlAM on the whole is bad or Crap this would be most unscientific way look at it . Their is no Doubt that there are many many beautiful thing That still exist in islam are source of inspiration . Even my Muslim friend agree that the current picture of islam is due to Mullas ( Religious preacher) belong to most Dumb group of society as educated people and intelligent people dont want to become reilgious leader so all the dumb and school dropouts get to become mullas and then they use their little brain to manpulate message of islam

The same thing is undeway in SIKHISM where most of our granthis and Bhaijis are uneducated and if you think that by propagating your message that its okay to be Cut Hair sikh and Being Physically gursikh is not neccasry then we are going down the same line as Islam went 1000 Years back As in islam there is Physical code accordin g to shariat law and every Muslim use to follow ( long beared , specific mustache and wearing clothes in lower part of body above ankle )it strictly and then they strated making excuses and the result today is that only mullas follow it and other people have lost control because they lost there power as they dont follow what Prophet Muhamed told them to do so now they are on mercy of mullas and what mullas have done to islam every body knows






Jatinder Singh
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Jul 30, 2004
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Gurfateh

das would like to say that love of one form to another or to God is in the Hand of God.

Coming to weather allow Patits to have mariages in Gurudwaras or not that will mean that they can be allowed as this is giving them another chance to rejoin Gurmat.

Khanda is not the persian origeon.

The Flag of Iran or Shia emblem is Allah writtan in either of the side ie lfet to right and right to left.

Khanda or Nishan Sahib is besipic to Sikhs.Then coming to the issue of Five Keys or Farsi.

Farsi was used by Guru to let Gurmat be preached in Iran and Areiba(it is arebic laden farsi which was popular in Arebia at that time and Indians also knew it). Guru also used Braj and Sadhukari to let it reach the lower castes.

Amrit has big link to dig on caste.

Das will give a Big link below into discuus how shaver is Patit.that thread will be used to describe who is Patit.

Das wants to make it clear that Das has problems with few of the members regarding the defination of Patit but at the same time Das preaches tolrance to them.

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikhphilosophy/controversial-debates/5775-defination-patit-fallen-sikhhood.html#post14264
 
Sep 11, 2005
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Dear VijayDeep ji

No one perfect , and neither God is even Perfect , otherwise we would have all been look alikes ..........

We should acknowledge that there lies no perfection , if People like you will start discriminating , and not tolerating the imperfections of the other person , then what lesson will you teach to a newly wedded couple .

Will you teach that unless and until your spouse is not perfect you should engage in endless argument and criticize each other leading to divorce...

People learn from what elders do .......

You should promote , to understand each other , to tolerate each other inspite of all imperfections ..........

And , I Stronly object to your word .... PATIT ........

If you are pukka sikh then mere origination of the thought of believing others to be patit makes you a patit .......... Mind should be pure ...... knock out the word patit from your mind ...........
 
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Sep 11, 2005
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Dear Web Site VeerJis(ARVIND JI , AMAN Ji and ALL)

We Strongly object to the word PATIT , This is pure demation ..........

The topic of discussion is whether to ban or not ...... and not to decide who is PATIT OR WHO IS NOT .



Moderator's note : Dear Singh ji a new topic already has been started for the disscusion for defination of patit so I think the problem has been solved
 

hpluthera

SPNer
Oct 3, 2005
65
3
Auckland
Dear Jatinder Ji
"
We do not want mullas in Sikhism and do not approve of any Chaudhries or Thekedars of Sikhi who self proclaim to be superior class of Sikhs than others.

Guru Nanak Dev Ji Said " I am Neither a Hindu Nor A Muslim"

So do not compare Sikhi with what Mullas or Pundits do or preach. let them do what they want do not get into similar trap we are out of that and above the rituals or identities.
"Truth is great but greater is the Truthful living.' (Gurbani) More than Kakars we have many other Guns which are in my opinion more important than Kakars, I have met and seen many Hypocrats wearing Kakars for political or other reasons they are able to exploit that because kakaars are like olden days Hindus Symbols are becoming more important, I believe for people of such thinking have to revisit Guru Nanak's Teaching. If Kakars give any superiority to any one as a Sikh then I condemn the practice. Just Kakars do not make any better Sikh. I have met may Bhakts who are without kalars but better Sikhs. bhai Nand Lal ji never took Amrit and when he asked and begged Guru Gobind Singh ji , he said you are a Scholar and your Kalam emits amrit you do not need it.

Sikhi is a way of life and Gurbani is its Lathi and Khalsa is an Institution and Kakar are its uniform and If I do not belong to that institution it does not mean I have become a lessor Sikh.

We have many Muslims who are for wrong reasons trying to drive the Sikhi views closer to Islam but let us not forget we are Guru Nanak's Sikh first and Khalsa later but are never a Muslim. Islam may have many good things, and if they have let them teach these to their perverted lot and Mullas I am no body to influence them. Yes if they have wisdom they can learn a lot from Guru nanak's Message.

Moreover, there are many Kakar wearing so called Khalsas who are smuglers murderers and do all wrong things with kakar and do not feel shame. I do passionately follow Guru Gobind Singh ji He is my Guru and Great Hero. A very possitive and optimistic thinker a great Soldier a doer Saint and merciful Patshah. But he changed from Fakiri Ves to Ameeri Ves and did acknowledge that with time one should change. So it is now 300 + year after Guru Gobind and time for change. We Sikhs are wasting more time in wasteful discussion on Kakars then Japo Naam. Believ me only Naam will ultimately save us .
HP Luthera
hpluthera said:
Dear Jatinder ji

Thanks for your comments but I have to add that Guru Gobind Singh Ji was a Scholar of Persian and Sanskrit and that time was of Ottaman empire and Moghuls in India and the most respected Language of the time was Persian and most repsected dress code was that of the Kings and Ameers of the time and matching their Mannerism to get same respect was the need of the time. Today the most respected language of the world for better communication knowledge exchange and research is English the dress code is westren. The whole world always lived like that. Look at Period of Ramayan and dresses and language. Guru Gobid Singh ji was a very far sighted Visionery who had option to include in the Guru Granth Sahib His banis and Dassam Granth as part of Living Guru he chose not to because he knew that certain aspects of human life (Cultural and Habits) changes with time and progress. Symbols and fashion changes. That was the time when it was fashion to see with respect a person with ling beard and turban as most respected to day in suit tie that to designer and speaking english can attract you in the contemporary society.

Khalsa symbole of Khanda and two Swords around is also of Persian origin our has a chkra in it. So these were contemporary of the time.

Spiritual aspect of Sikhi can not be restricted by the measure of principles and symbols of Khlalsa. Khalsa was a Guru Ki Fauj and should have remain and UNO should be asked to create a Khalsa Regiment as it was indeed the UN like mission of Khalsa with similar code. Keep the Khalsa's Glory in its deed so that the glorified role of Khlas in the today's societ encourage and attract the masses not only the Sikhs to join the Order of Khalsa. Guru nanak Connected people to the One who every one acknowledge the ultimate force of life and preached us and the whole world a common message remember thy name in your heart and do good deeds. So it is beyond the divides of all religion that big is the beauty of Guru Nanak's message. Khalsa is the protector of such beings even at the cost of his own life that was the beauty of Khalsa gifted by Guru Gobind Singh. But putting bans and thnking small that after using Gurudwara for marriage they have shaven and not wore turban is too narrow.
World has two thing permanent Truth and Change and those who refuse to accept repent or fail

let us encourage naam in Gurudwara and Glorify the deeds of Khalsa and their behaviour and participation in good things for human welfare we will win a bigger force of The Order of Khalsa.

Let us build not keep on critising and refuting who wish to take the first small step in the spirit of Gurbani.

Waheguru may grant us all the wisdom to comprehend please take my views in the spirit of debate for getting to the best conclusion these are just my views and not preachings and could be subject to more critical analysis.

regards
HP Luthera
 

hpluthera

SPNer
Oct 3, 2005
65
3
Auckland
Dear Sikh Sangat
Be cautioned that such bans or new kind of impositions are not done by any Sikh but some people with vested interest whose sole motto is to capture control of Gururdwars and then use it for starting their own Congregation or sect by herding the Gurudwar's confused Sangat to their umbrella.

So be on gaurd with self proclaimed so called superior Sikhs.
HP Luthera

S|kH said:
There's a new ban on "short-haired" people getting married in the gurdwara.

Discuss. (I'll post my views soon).
 
Jul 30, 2004
1,744
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Gurfateh

Repected Luthra Sahib,

Das is interested to know that from where did you knwo that Nishan Sahib ie Khanda,Two Teghs and Chakra on it is from Farsi origeon.So far it was treated as an influence of Sakatmatis or Brahmins to absorbs Sikhs.

If you think that it is similar to Iran Flag then Das is sorry to say that That Flag has Allah wriitan over it with the cligraphy that can be read from both the sides as a symbol tyhat Allah is at all direction.

home_r1_c02.gif



Next thing is totaly wrong that Guru told us to change with time.As a Khalsa who worships timelesss Akal so as Akal Khalsa is(as Guru Granth Sahib Ji says that be the person of god as God) the same.

At that time had Guru wanted to adjust to time then Ninth Master would have been converted to Islam and so does Tenth Master and his Sons.Guru tells us to control Time and win death.

Gurmat is not hindusim who adjusts to time or change self with time.We have might to change the time.

Amrit or Nector of Cabre or Khanda had one direct attempt to change time.To end Castes like Virk,Solanki,Sahu,Luthra etc. into Singh or Kaur as they are hindereance to change time.These old castes are to be cahnged and work is still on.Khalsa was made to end racial,regeoanl,Lingual variation and work is still on.

Das agrees that without 5Ks salvation can be done.But to bring social justice and acces to the poorest of poor and lowest of lower to sprituality it is must that theere be social integration.

If some imposted trys to intrude the movement and try to spoil the mission it must that imposter must be thrown out and mission be still on.Khalsa is on mission.

Das respect your views and endreose them and understand them and is at your side but just wanted to tell that there are many practical things which Tenth master diviced and which were not memntioned in Adi Guru Darbar but in any case they were not Anti or Contradictory to it.

What Tenth Master did was not the change but a step ahead in the mission started by First Master.If we go from 5 to 6 then 5 will be in 6 but one extra will be there so it is not change but an increase in postive direction.

It is still in process.:wah:
 
Sep 11, 2005
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Conversion and Change are two different words with different meanings .

Suppose you have bought a toy train , you go home and notice that the train is damaged or you want to have a bigger train .

So what you will do is go the toy merchant and ask him to change the toy train or give him a bigger train .

So here change doesn't means that he is going to convert the train to an aeroplane .

or Suppose a person is theive but later on he changes to a good man , it doesn't means that he has converted himself to woman or something else.

Each and every word has different shades of meaning .
 
Sep 11, 2005
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Can any body throw light that what is meant by khalsa ?

Somewhere it is written that it means "Brotherhood".

???????????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
Sep 11, 2005
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vijaydeep Singh said:
Gurfateh

Repected Luthra Sahib,

Das is interested to know that from where did you knwo that Nishan Sahib ie Khanda,Two Teghs and Chakra on it is from Farsi origeon.So far it was treated as an influence of Sakatmatis or Brahmins to absorbs Sikhs.

If you think that it is similar to Iran Flag then Das is sorry to say that That Flag has Allah wriitan over it with the cligraphy that can be read from both the sides as a symbol tyhat Allah is at all direction.

home_r1_c02.gif



Next thing is totaly wrong that Guru told us to change with time.As a Khalsa who worships timelesss Akal so as Akal Khalsa is(as Guru Granth Sahib Ji says that be the person of god as God) the same.

At that time had Guru wanted to adjust to time then Ninth Master would have been converted to Islam and so does Tenth Master and his Sons.Guru tells us to control Time and win death.

Gurmat is not hindusim who adjusts to time or change self with time.We have might to change the time.

Amrit or Nector of Cabre or Khanda had one direct attempt to change time.To end Castes like Virk,Solanki,Sahu,Luthra etc. into Singh or Kaur as they are hindereance to change time.These old castes are to be cahnged and work is still on.Khalsa was made to end racial,regeoanl,Lingual variation and work is still on.

Das agrees that without 5Ks salvation can be done.But to bring social justice and acces to the poorest of poor and lowest of lower to sprituality it is must that theere be social integration.

If some imposted trys to intrude the movement and try to spoil the mission it must that imposter must be thrown out and mission be still on.Khalsa is on mission.

Das respect your views and endreose them and understand them and is at your side but just wanted to tell that there are many practical things which Tenth master diviced and which were not memntioned in Adi Guru Darbar but in any case they were not Anti or Contradictory to it.

What Tenth Master did was not the change but a step ahead in the mission started by First Master.If we go from 5 to 6 then 5 will be in 6 but one extra will be there so it is not change but an increase in postive direction.

It is still in process.:wah:


Some of the things which are above written reflects being a SHEKCHILLI type .

But to bring social justice and acces to the poorest of poor and lowest of lower to sprituality it is must that theere be social integration.

The above is just to fool the public and there is no such happening .

We have might to change the time.

This above line is also a SHEKCHILLI writing .

The social integration is going on for centuries but nothing happened .

No has changed time , But every one has to flow with time .

If it was possible then there wouldn't have been numerous bloodsheds in tha past .

One must be real .

 
Jul 30, 2004
1,744
88
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Gurfateh

Das would lie to know the meaning of Sheikh Chilli from Devine Santive(DS) Ji.

Is it shake of chellis:}{}{}: .

anyway when a person changes his faith from say hindu to Muslim he is converted to Islam.

Bringing change in conversion of one position into another.

Khalsa means who sees purly God in all and no Shirk or other thing in existing in universe but God(Dasham Granth Verse Jagat Joot Jape Nis Basur).


Then das request you to try to understand what das says dear DS,

das asks you that do you know that there were many Hindu Temples and even Gurudwaras whetre Dalits were not allowed.

Even untouchables were told to tie brrom on their back so that it cleans the way and let them not touch the Brahamin.

By leting them eat in one bowl and togahter and with one caste Singh was not that revloution then that evil time of inhuman thing would have stil presisted.

Had scintist of reniances had thought like you then they would still be living in dark age.

Human can change by mercy of Akal who is might anything as they have made your computer and we are talking.time did not do it.

Das would like to say that had your forefather been upper caste Hindus then they would have stil been doing service in the court of biogot Mughalsa and your female folk woulfd have been preyed upon by them as it is stil in Pakistan.

And has you been lower caste then you would, have been denied basi human rights as happens in may parts of India.

It is due to Khalsa Panth that there are many liberties and Right Sikh enjoy and can help other non Sikhs to have them asafter that non Sikh too becomes Sikh.

Rember one thing that if some person has weakness that he looses out that does not means that all other are like that.

In Hindi there is a proverb that Svan Ka andha Hara Hi Dekhi ie person who gets bliend in moonsoon always see geernery of it.

It is time tested thing and you can go and see some villages of meerut,Aligarh,bulanshehar in UP or Burhanpur(MP) or Desh Area(HP) or Amrawati Area of Mahrashtra where convewrsion of village to Gurmat has brought change same is true in amy areas of Bihar.

Dalits who were not not allowed to ride horse by upper castes at one time are riding horse and keeping sword with self defeance yet upper castes who nver use to touch them leave aside eat togather come to thier Gurudwaras and take Langer especialy Brahamins.

If you are weak DS or you have seeb weak then this does not mean that every one is weak and world is on grund and not in internet only.Das feesl that you still may not want to have a good company of Dalits so you think that they will still remain dowen troden or you may think that non hindu or Indian races or non Aryans are inferior and can not be treated equaly.

For us to bring equlity is our relgeon and Amrit and 5ks are our proof for that.Das is not offending you personally as das thinks that you have already felt the same but das did not wanted it to happen.

Das has seen many punjabis who are in Sikh attire like donkey in lion and talks that partuicular is lower caste and other is higher race etc.

what das has read from scrioptures and seen Sikhs in practuse that as per True Khalsa seeing god in all there is no caste differance left.

it may be some problem in your punjab where lower caste have differant Gurudwaras and they may not be allowed in upper caste Gurudwaras especially in Malwa area (in doaba or paur lower castes will kill if some think like that).

BUT that does not means that Panth is BAD or totaly failure as you want to say or as das has misunderstood you perhaps.But das is sure that you have again misunderstood him.
 
Sep 11, 2005
511
10
50
The question is not whether panth is bad or good .

The question is not whether Dalits are allowed or not .

But the question is , Do people walk the talk ?
 

hpluthera

SPNer
Oct 3, 2005
65
3
Auckland
I entirely agree to your view these self proclaimed gurudwara Grabbers should be kept under constant check or thrown out. The Problem is that Gurudwaras are run by volunteers and there are many clever so Called professional volunteers who become self proclaimed pseudo gurus.

Belief is with in you and that is more important.
Be strong and have faith in you
HP
 

hpluthera

SPNer
Oct 3, 2005
65
3
Auckland
vijaydeep Singh said:
Gurfateh

Repected Luthra Sahib,

Das is interested to know that from where did you knwo that Nishan Sahib ie Khanda,Two Teghs and Chakra on it is from Farsi origeon.So far it was treated as an influence of Sakatmatis or Brahmins to absorbs Sikhs.

If you think that it is similar to Iran Flag then Das is sorry to say that That Flag has Allah wriitan over it with the cligraphy that can be read from both the sides as a symbol tyhat Allah is at all direction.

home_r1_c02.gif



Next thing is totaly wrong that Guru told us to change with time.As a Khalsa who worships timelesss Akal so as Akal Khalsa is(as Guru Granth Sahib Ji says that be the person of god as God) the same.

At that time had Guru wanted to adjust to time then Ninth Master would have been converted to Islam and so does Tenth Master and his Sons.Guru tells us to control Time and win death.

Gurmat is not hindusim who adjusts to time or change self with time.We have might to change the time.

Amrit or Nector of Cabre or Khanda had one direct attempt to change time.To end Castes like Virk,Solanki,Sahu,Luthra etc. into Singh or Kaur as they are hindereance to change time.These old castes are to be cahnged and work is still on.Khalsa was made to end racial,regeoanl,Lingual variation and work is still on.

Das agrees that without 5Ks salvation can be done.But to bring social justice and acces to the poorest of poor and lowest of lower to sprituality it is must that theere be social integration.

If some imposted trys to intrude the movement and try to spoil the mission it must that imposter must be thrown out and mission be still on.Khalsa is on mission.

Das respect your views and endreose them and understand them and is at your side but just wanted to tell that there are many practical things which Tenth master diviced and which were not memntioned in Adi Guru Darbar but in any case they were not Anti or Contradictory to it.

What Tenth Master did was not the change but a step ahead in the mission started by First Master.If we go from 5 to 6 then 5 will be in 6 but one extra will be there so it is not change but an increase in postive direction.

It is still in process.:wah:


Dear Vijaya Deep ji

At the outset I must say that only Change is Permanent or Truth is. Every thing else changes even the Atma change body today an Atma in a Sikh tomorrow the same may be Hindu or may be in some one else.

Guru Gobind Rai became Guru Gobind Singh, Sri Guru Nanak House adopted path of Sword from fakeeri. Why? to bring a chnge. Stagnant society or economy just rot. Those who change always get on the front.

Spiritual Political and Social or cultural aspects of life have been changing historically. Sri Guru Nanak Changed the belief of his time and started Sikhi Panth.

Let us be practical like our Gurus and be modren and open minded to accept the change.

Today if you need to fight the evil can you fight in the uniform of 14th 16th cetury or you would need the modern warfare and techniques. Do you think the Sikhs in Army should say we are Khalsa give me Kirpan or Khanda to fight. They do not why? because Guru also said get abreast with latest techniques and change over. He knew when he made Lions from the "Sheeps" .

Many were then Dalits and with new identity power of Amrit uniform of Khalsa their psyche motivation and attitude changed. We need Chadhdi kala all along in our life many motivational speakers are making millions of Dollars but our Guru Did for free ( I am not comparing but an analogy)

Accept the fact Guru Gobind Singh ji established Khalsa to bring change So the very function and need of the Sikh and then Khalsa was to bring Change.

I am sure we must be progressive with time and change our ways not the values. I am sure you must be travelling in car jet plane etc. if you adopted that change why small change is so difficult.

Even Guru Nanak Dev Ji changed his dress on different udasis.

Expand Sikhi not the Rituals. Adopt ways for preaching as adopted by Guru nanak Devji who reminded the message behind symbols and rituals like janau without agonising and connected people with him. He defeated them in all arguments and made them accept the real Truth as against Hypocracy. We must today shun that kind of Khalsa Hypocracy.
Many khalsa of today are just Nautankis. ( we see them in here every day) In the garb of Khalsa.


On one hand you are saying that Khalsa ws made to change caste System on other hand you say Khalsa is Atal.

Atal is faith which we all have with in Khalsa is just a roop confirming that faith with Gurus Mohar (Stamp) like designers. Khalsa is a Designer Sikh very special so keep it special by not "Nautankis" be part of it.

It is important to understand that Living with principles of a Khalsa is more important than just living in the Swaroop of Khalsa without virtues of Khalsa.

I would rather chase such Khalsa' as would fail to live like one and dismiss them from the Khalsa hood with a dishonourable discharge. I know it is easy to take Amrit and wear Khalsa uniform but it is highly responsible and difficult to live upto it.

I happen to know closely three Khalsa One of them was my Grand Father Shahid baba Pratap Singh of Punja sahib and second Late S Hukum Singhji as I knew him,(he was a speaker of Lok sabha in India) and third my Grand mother with whom I lived my all childhood and younger days was a Khalsa.

Khalsa is to Live and fight the vices with in and evil outside and by his action promote Sikhi not by preaching. To become Khalsa one need to read Sikh History and to become a Sikh one need to have a touch of Gurbani. But today Khalsa just want others to be Khalsa without being a mentor himself.

To fit in the world and to face and fight the world as our Gurus we must not dictate others in a way to exclude them but like Sri Guru nanak Dev ji include every one as Gurbani says "Hum Nahin Change Bura Nahi Koye". Stop becoming supeior sikhs just because you are Amritdhari.

Symbols are Gifts of Guru and unless we let every one come to "Gurus Sharan" how can they get those gifts and appreciate them.

I may here add that the Guru does not give these Gifts to all unless we beg for and we do not become even worthy of begging unless he gives us inner sttrength to ask for that bowl of Amrit.

Regarding the Persian Islamic influence in Khalsa Emblem read following:

http://www.islamreview.com/articles/cairsjesus.shtml
I’ll start this by a question. What is the symbol of Islam? For who doesn’t know , it’s the crescent (don’t ask me why now, that’s another story.) Another symbol of Islam is the black banner with two crossed swords and the inscription of “La Ellah Ella Allah Wa Muhammad Rasoul Allah” which translate to “No God but Allah and Muhammad is his messenger.” As for the two swords, you don’t need a translation


As regards your views that Sikhi is not like Hinduism, I smell your hatred for people of other religion. Hinduism has not changed people has changed. Religious beliefs remain same people change. If I ask you to say Hari Hari every day you will say why I am Sikh I say Waheguru Waheguru" But Gurbani says " Naam Hari ka Laga Mitha". we go astray from gurbani every day and running after symbols.

Sikhi is about Freedom of worship just as our Gurus preached and the Sikhism Symbolise _FREEDOM OF WORSHIP. Therefore, I am prepared oppose ANY BHAI, LEADER, KHALSA OR AMRITDHARI WHO Tries to CHANGE THE VERY FOUNDATION OF SRI GURU NANAK DEV JI'S SIKHI-FREEDOM OF WORSHIP

"HASSANDIYA KHADHANDIYA WICHE HOVEY MUKT"
" BETHAT NAAM SOVAT NAAM"

Why cannot we accept that Guru Gobind Singh Ji had an option to include the Dress Code of Khalsa etc. in the Guru Granth Sahib but he did not. Why? because he knew that with time Cultures, Politics, Society and fashion changes. It was never his intention to hold his Khalsa in the time capsule.

Only Glorification of God and the permanent Truths of life are in the Guru Granth Sahib. He ( GOD) never changes and our love for Him should never change. "Dharti" earth also Changes. we are just humans.


I hope I have addressed all your concerns and HAVE made it quite clear what I am tryinng to say.

I am neither against Khalsa nor Keshadhari - because I am one.

I am for freedom of worship.

To save the institution of Khalsa it should be checked that people wearing Khalsa Uniform Behaves and follow its Code and Ethics. ecourage Khalsa to be part of United nation. Every Sikh Family should feel it a matter of pride if their loved one is a Khalsa and inservice of Humanity world wide. Be real Akal Purukh Ki Fauj not by Just Singing your glories every day with in the precincts of Gurudwara.

May Sri Guru Nanak grant us sumat



REGARDS
HP LUTHERA
 
Jul 30, 2004
1,744
88
world
Gurfateh

Luthra Sahib,

There seesm to be a sort of misunderstanding what Das wants to convey and what you ahve understood and so das is writing it to clearfy.


Dear Vijaya Deep ji

At the outset I must say that only Change is Permanent or Truth is. Every thing else changes even the Atma change body today an Atma in a Sikh tomorrow the same may be Hindu or may be in some one else.

Cahnge is apparant while all is Akal which makes us all and is eternal.

Soul is also relative and hindus misquote holy Gita when they say soul is eternal while as soul is created as spirit and thence destroyed.
Guru Gobind Rai became Guru Gobind Singh, Sri Guru Nanak House adopted path of Sword from fakeeri. Why? to bring a chnge. Stagnant society or economy just rot. Those who change always get on the front.

Das wants you to rember that Sixth Master did pick up sword and Ninth Master became Tegh Bahdur ie brave with blade or sword.

And we have an arte fact of sword of Guru Nanak Dev JI kept at Patna Sahib obtained from Orrisa and as per Sashtra vidya people Guru Nanak Dev Ji himslef was master of weaponary.

Tenth Master did was to bring the change in wider masses and people work started by Akal and being one with Akal.

Das again say that Human cahnge socity and and weak people surrunder to changing times or get subdued.First master did not got subdued to Babber and one day dislodge his rule in the form 0f Twleth ie Khalsa.
Spiritual Political and Social or cultural aspects of life have been changing historically. Sri Guru Nanak Changed the belief of his time and started Sikhi Panth.

This is due to the fault of our people who critinised our faith due to influnes of then protetant rulers.

They did cahnged thier faith to suit the needs of the rulers and thos4e who did not were forced to die(Nihung Hanuman Singh etc.) or to flea in south or conspire covertly but kept there strugle on to change the time.

Guru Maharaj Pratham Patshahi,the First Emperor did not start a new faith as Panth is there since the universe was formed.If we read Sau Sakhi it were Budhists Nandas who forsed idolatory to Primary or Adi Sikhs and cut thier hairs.One creed of Brahmins(here refer to Akal worshippers as it is Said in Guru Granth Sahib Ji),Left India and became forefather of jews.

Guru did preach faith to human kind and those who wanted to be like Guru became Sikh(refer Vaars of bhai Gurdas ie Guru became Sikh and Sikh became Guru).

The evil which was there was due to evil time and again by humans(Guru with GuruSikhs(Sikhs attaining Guruhood spritualy)) does it was act of Akal(the universal System prevalent in and out with a brain) to prove some thing and that is that Akal by self is supreeme.

to be more prisece Akal created Bad and and big Bad and then by weak humans amde that to change into good.

Let us be practical like our Gurus and be modren and open minded to accept the change
.

Das has got the root of misunderstadning.

well to change time we need to carry out new acts to let time changes to suit our needs and this is aggressive way.

to change ourself with time is defeansive way and das respect that thing to but does not endrose it.

Today if you need to fight the evil can you fight in the uniform of 14th 16th cetury or you would need the modern warfare and techniques. Do you think the Sikhs in Army should say we are Khalsa give me Kirpan or Khanda to fight. They do not why? because Guru also said get abreast with latest techniques and change over. He knew when he made Lions from the "Sheeps" .

Das is reapeating that useage of Kirpan is still not obsolate and and fianl assult we still use Sangeens our boynats and this reduced the collatral damge especaily if enemy is hidden in civilians.
And when chemical for explosives will be over we can still recyle iron.

but das has got you point but das wants you to read Dasham Granth where not only Cannons and Explosive matter is termed as Mainfestation of God in Shaster Naam Mala Puran but at other places siganls for nuclear energy is writtan.

In fact as Guru worshipped Akal he could trevel in time,which scince is yet to reach.Time itself is realtive facotor what das wants to convey and can be altered and when time machine will be made by sceince(after making any thing moving faster then light or even eqaul to it making time gaoing negative then you could meet Guru Gobind Singh ji and talk on that but this is serious thing Sir!).


Many were then Dalits and with new identity power of Amrit uniform of Khalsa their psyche motivation and attitude changed. We need Chadhdi kala all along in our life many motivational speakers are making millions of Dollars but our Guru Did for free ( I am not comparing but an analogy)

das agree to it but wants to add that Amrit was there since first Master but scale was to be enlarged to change more people in that time frame.

Before that it was Charan Pahul,Corner of Guru Granth Sahib's covering cloath dipped in Water.
Accept the fact Guru Gobind Singh ji established Khalsa to bring change So the very function and need of the Sikh and then Khalsa was to bring Change
.

This is correct and das supports it And Guru did bring change and porcess is on by the same Guru Khalsa.


I
I am sure we must be progressive with time and change our ways not the values. I am sure you must be travelling in car jet plane etc. if you adopted that change why small change is so difficult.

Resource could be utiliesed to bring change to suit the requirement of humans.Guru did use the canonon brought in by Moghuls to defeat them.To get the gola to change as per needs varouis means can be used.

BUT MEANS ARE NOT THE GOALS.




Even Guru Nanak Dev Ji changed his dress on different udasis.

That was done to let the meantilty of people change but Guru did not changed his faith and articles of faith.He did not take Kuran but his Pothi of Gurbani to Holy Mecca.Dress was mean to change the minds and as result we still have sipleeds with full hairs in Central Iraq.

Expand Sikhi not the Rituals.
some rituals are must to let what is in mind comes on ground also.

Adopt ways for preaching as adopted by Guru nanak Devji who reminded the message behind symbols and rituals like janau without agonising and connected people with him.

Well das knows that Guru told Bhai Mardana never to cut hairs and why did he made own of his rituals.

Yagypweet as per old Sanatan Dharmi scripture was something to dod with good ideas and open to man kind and not only to selected castes.Guru only endroresed the reasons behind that symbolism.

Das finds Janeu still with him in the from of Ghatra.

He defeated them in all arguments and made them accept the real Truth as against Hypocracy. We must today shun that kind of Khalsa Hypocracy.
Many khalsa of today are just Nautankis. ( we see them in here every day) In the garb of Khalsa.

Das appriciate your concerns.

Das just wants to be in Chardi Kala and have faith in akal who uis in all.and have trust in many others you think are doing good.If you find no one then you your self try to be good but as per true spirit of Khalsa never say die.

Das has seen may cases Sikhs fighting against many odds.Many people die and many comrades dies but strugle goes on till last drop of blood.

So if imposters are dieing spritual death then this does not gives us an excuse to commit spritual suicide.

to imporve Panth do not rely on what others do ,think what you can do:wah:



On one hand you are saying that Khalsa ws made to change caste System on other hand you say Khalsa is Atal.

to be more clear,Akal is in all and is in Khalsa before it was made with Singh title as by circumstances so far distinctions of inequlities were there.


Khalsa is Atal as being one with Akal person who is Khalsa becomes eternal.But it is capable of changing time.
Atal is faith which we all have with in Khalsa is just a roop confirming that faith with Gurus Mohar (Stamp) like designers. Khalsa is a Designer Sikh very special so keep it special by not "Nautankis" be part of it.

Das agrees to you and know Nautanki people who first give priroty on Amrit and Five Ks and not beholding Akal in all and removail of indivdualistic ego and so we find our lust for indivdual from or dress gors and we find ourself one with the universe and there all changes are apprant and true Akal ie Akkul or unmoving.Punajbis use AkkUli(u is for Chhota a like in but) for brain but in Sadhu Bhasha this is state of salvation while being alive as Akal is in all so no movement as there is no two things in real either nor does space is a realty but a realtive term.
It is important to understand that Living with principles of a Khalsa is more important than just living in the Swaroop of Khalsa without virtues of Khalsa.
101% Agreed.
I would rather chase such Khalsa' as would fail to live like one and dismiss them from the Khalsa hood with a dishonourable discharge. I know it is easy to take Amrit and wear Khalsa uniform but it is highly responsible and difficult to live upto it.

das is from that side of Nirmalas where Amrit or 5ks are not an issue and only few have it but still they respect does who dawn it but you are correct that we must have faith first than appearnace but appreanace is proof of faith which we first had in our mind and did bring it on ground.

whithout faith it is wrong to wear 5Ks.

I happen to know closely three Khalsa One of them was my Grand Father Shahid baba Pratap Singh of Punja sahib and second Late S Hukum Singhji as I knew him,(he was a speaker of Lok sabha in India) and third my Grand mother with whom I lived my all childhood and younger days was a Khalsa.
\
Das bows his head to them and to you aas Das knows that you are one of them and is happy to interact with you.

Khalsa is to Live and fight the vices with in and evil outside and by his action promote Sikhi not by preaching. To become Khalsa one need to read Sikh History and to become a Sikh one need to have a touch of Gurbani. But today Khalsa just want others to be Khalsa without being a mentor himself.

We must not forget Dasham Granth and Sarbloh Granth also.

As per Sant Singh Ji Maskeen,We have Duniydar(Grahst or householder or turbanned Hindu least bothered with any thing). Sikh(Jigyasu or one who seeks knwoledge).Singh(Sadhu who works on teaching) and Khalsa(Sant,who gets the state of salvation being Alive or one with Akal).

Many 'Amritdharis' are still dunyadars.
To fit in the world and to face and fight the world as our Gurus we must not dictate others in a way to exclude them but like Sri Guru nanak Dev ji include every one as Gurbani says "Hum Nahin Change Bura Nahi Koye". Stop becoming supeior sikhs just because you are Amritdhari.

Das agains has full support to you.
Symbols are Gifts of Guru and unless we let every one come to "Gurus Sharan" how can they get those gifts and appreciate them.

Guru takes us in Guru's(Akal's) refuge and our attempts are futile.
I may here add that the Guru does not give these Gifts to all unless we beg for and we do not become even worthy of begging unless he gives us inner sttrength to ask for that bowl of Amrit.

What das knows here is that all is by mercy of Akal and Akal does not want all to be one with Akal else why did Akal created universe and Dwait or Duja Bhav there in ie duality of anything else but Akal.
Regarding the Persian Islamic influence in Khalsa Emblem read following:

http://www.islamreview.com/articles/cairsjesus.shtml
I’ll start this by a question. What is the symbol of Islam? For who doesn’t know , it’s the crescent (don’t ask me why now, that’s another story.) Another symbol of Islam is the black banner with two crossed swords and the inscription of “La Ellah Ella Allah Wa Muhammad Rasoul Allah” which translate to “No God but Allah and Muhammad is his messenger.” As for the two swords, you don’t need a translation

Well Allah ho Akabar is 'the God is greatest ' is in Arebic and in farsi it should be Khoda Buzoorg Tareen ast.

Two swords are symbol og British Army,Indian Army,Sakatas use Khanda Shaiv use Trishul and many tribals have similar thiings.Das wanted to prove that Guru did not copy but got from the source ie Akal from where others get.
As regards your views that Sikhi is not like Hinduism, I smell your hatred for people of other religion. Hinduism has not changed people has changed. Religious beliefs remain same people change. If I ask you to say Hari Hari every day you will say why I am Sikh I say Waheguru Waheguru" But Gurbani says " Naam Hari ka Laga Mitha". we go astray from gurbani every day and running after symbols.

Luthra Sahib,Das was a Hindu and why did das wrote is due to some other fact.

hindu was a derogatory remark by pagan parsis(not Shia Muslims).The people who should have called themsleves Arayan(Civilised) or Sanatanis(worshippers of eternal) just started to accept derpgaotry referance as rulers later refered them.That was accepting the defeat and changing with time.One who ruled earth got restriced to hindustan bounded by hindukush(mountains where all hindus were killed(kush)).

there are mnay 'sikhs' who cut there hairs being afraid of jokes of 12 oclock and that is thing to accept the change then to change the things to accepatbilty.
Sikhi is about Freedom of worship just as our Gurus preached and the Sikhism Symbolise _FREEDOM OF WORSHIP. Therefore, I am prepared oppose ANY BHAI, LEADER, KHALSA OR AMRITDHARI WHO Tries to CHANGE THE VERY FOUNDATION OF SRI GURU NANAK DEV JI'S SIKHI-FREEDOM OF WORSHIP

Das knows that Panth talks of salvation by willof Akal and so does worship and how can someone make us to worship as gurbani says 'knows without prayer,in front of whon ashould we pray'.Panth has no room for worship but doing all acts as slvae of Akal.As Akal is doing and we are limbs or tools with no brain but alll things are of Akal.

"HASSANDIYA KHADHANDIYA WICHE HOVEY MUKT"
" BETHAT NAAM SOVAT NAAM"

salutations.
Why cannot we accept that Guru Gobind Singh Ji had an option to include the Dress Code of Khalsa etc. in the Guru Granth Sahib but he did not. Why?

he did it in Sarbloh Granth and in Dasham Granth lator on his things were added.Main reason for his not including his bani in Guru Granth Sahib and making other writing was due to two reasons.
1. Adi Guru Darbar was to be made too voluminous.
2. other sects like Dheermias,Meenas,Ramrays,Masands etc. wanted to misqoute term Nanak in Adi Guru Darbar as one with God.Like in mool Mantra Say(noot Says as Akal is telling Nanak to say) Nanak will(Akal) be true was could be treated as Nanak will be true.

but Tenth Master was to reaffirm Akal is only source and there were a few Ihlaams(Godly verse which did not addressed Nanak) But in Book and writing of Guru never did he sued his or Nanak name but referd to Akal as saying.


because he knew that with time Cultures, Politics, Society and fashion changes. It was never his intention to hold his Khalsa in the time capsule.

Thing can be said that folllwoing Sabad Guru as per Guru Granth Sahihb can be mere time depeanded or traping Sikhs in time capsule inspite of Mool Mantra Saying Akal is timeless entiy(Akal Murat).

It is only due to Adi Guru Darbar purism that such things come.
Only Glorification of God and the permanent Truths of life are in the Guru Granth Sahib.

This itslef is capsualtion of God in one book or tieing Akal with a book.like promises are from Allah misquoted in holy Kuran or Testmeants by God in holy bible.

Adi Guru Darbar was made by Akal and anything which is created can be destroyed be it book what matters is an ideaology as you told before.

Bounding ourself to a book is similar to ritualism of 5ks or amrit without underastaning idealogy.Das just want you read Bani of Tenth Master.

in his Maryada for five Ks he used term Bashad in Farsi and not Bood or ast ie Bashad is in Present and Futre while Ast is present and Bood is in past.

It sates marks of Sikhi are Five keys and in there not going to be forgivne.There names are given.without Hairs other four (Bangle,Sword,Shorts and Comb) are uselss.I(Guru) say this with no conflict with privous code(this means code was there before writng this).

Huaqqa,shaving and Halal are forbiddan and appying Hinna is like balckednin the face.

As per Sau Sakhi Damdami beer was laready made before Gurus leaving Anandpur Sahib this means that Guru did intend to write other books as our guide and Guru Granth Sahib Ji of oldest version was to brought from Dheermaliyas just to not let them misquote them.




He ( GOD) never changes and our love for Him should never change. "Dharti" earth also Changes. we are just humans.

if we are Khalsa and one with Akal we like Akal can change anything.As then we is not us but Akal but mercy of that Akal is needed.

I hope I have addressed all your concerns and HAVE made it quite clear what I am tryinng to say.

I am neither against Khalsa nor Keshadhari - because I am one.

I am for freedom of worship.

To save the institution of Khalsa it should be checked that people wearing Khalsa Uniform Behaves and follow its Code and Ethics. ecourage Khalsa to be part of United nation. Every Sikh Family should feel it a matter of pride if their loved one is a Khalsa and inservice of Humanity world wide. Be real Akal Purukh Ki Fauj not by Just Singing your glories every day with in the precincts of Gurudwara.

May Sri Guru Nanak grant us sumat

Sir! Das is soory if worng is writtan but das is misunderstood as Devine Seantive has thought of him.

As das told you before Das is at your side but we nned not have to see iles opf others but try to be in high spirit by seeing goods of other and if others is not good to be found then we can improve ourselves but by mercy of Akal as we and you are realtive terms.

Das thanks you for reply and seeks your guidance in future but motive of das is to let Panth be in high spirit and by the acts of hypocrtic imposters true people like you must not be defensive but be in higher spirit.

Das is again soory if inappropriate words are said and das hopes that you him forgive him.


REGARDS
HP LUTHERA
 
Jul 30, 2004
1,744
88
world
Gurfateh

Das is again writing two points to let them be more clear.
1. If we say that Tenth Master made Guru Granth Sahib as Guru,Then it is not writtan in Guru Granth Sahib JI but from other sources.

We can not be seltictive to think That if Guru Granth Sahib Ji are suiting us then it is eternal and Khalsa is not suiting then not eternal.

Das would like to say that First to Fourth Master did not compiled Guru Granth Sahib JI,Fifth did.

Das can ask why did not Ninth Master put 'his' verse himself in Guru Gran th sahib Ji and why did Tenth Master put it.

As Ninth Master had faith that Tenth Master will not question and put that Gurbani so did Tenth master did not put his Bani in Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

Guru knew that his successor Guru Panth will respect his Bani.And will follow it.Usualy more hypocracy is from looby of Guru Granth Sahib purests who in fact do not follow whole of Guru Granth Sahib Ji either ie Raagmala or even Bhatt swayye or Bhagat Bani.

2. Das becomes emotional on change issue as Fifth Guru,Ninth Guru and many other Saheeds or martyers never conceded to change but by giving life changed the time.

Das can say if some one offers him say bribe to ditch the nation or even say that Indians are killing Khalistanis and das must change or else he will die or say ditch the duty.

Being a Sikh das will not change to suit time but will strive to change it in favour or die but no compromise.

due to that only others respect us be it India or UK,Be it Saragarhi or be it Kargill and instead of being role models of others we teach ourself to change is wrong.

Das can say that col grewal or Rabinder singh who were mona/patits who ditch the nation or maniderpal singh kohli was a rapist of Henna Foster in UK and there are many such mona/patits so should Sikhs start hating all or say killing all due to bad acts of fews.

In the same way if a few so called Amritdharis are wrong then we must not hate all of them as such.Das agrees that a few people who are self acclaimed Amritdharis or with 5Ks are do not know much about Sikhi but there is no fault of Sikhi but of us that we could not preach them and need to preach them faith first and its mnaifestation in body.

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