shabads of kabeer ji

Discussion in 'Gurmat Vichaar' started by kds1980, Oct 17, 2005.

  1. kds1980

    kds1980 (previously Kanwardeep Singh) SPNer

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    on page 326 of guru granth sahib kabir ji wrote
    AYsy Gr hm bhuqu bswey ] (326-1, gauVI, kbIr jI)
    aisay ghar ham bahut basaa-ay.
    I lived in many such homes, O Lord,

    jb hm rwm grB hoie Awey ]1] rhwau ] (326-1, gauVI, kbIr jI)
    jab ham raam garabh ho-ay aa-ay. ||1|| rahaa-o.
    before I came into the womb this time. ||1||Pause||

    jogI jqI qpI bRhmcwrI ] (326-2, gauVI, kbIr jI)
    jogee jatee tapee barahamchaaree.
    I was a Yogi, a celibate, a penitent, and a Brahmchaaree, with strict self-discipline.

    kbhU rwjw CqRpiq kbhU ByKwrI ]2] (326-2, gauVI, kbIr jI)
    kabhoo raajaa chhatarpat kabhoo bhaykhaaree. ||2||
    Sometimes I was a king, sitting on the throne, and sometimes I was a beggar. ||2||

    swkq mrih sMq siB jIvih ] (326-2, gauVI, kbIr jI)
    saakat mareh sant sabh jeeveh.
    The faithless cynics shall die, while the Saints shall all survive.

    while on 1366 kabir ji wrote
    Page 1366

    AYsy mrny jo mrY bhuir n mrnw hoie ]29] (1366-1, slok, Bgq kbIr jI)
    aisay marnay jo marai bahur na marnaa ho-ay. ||29||
    Let those who die, die such a death, that they shall never have to die again. ||29||

    kbIr mwns jnmu dulµBu hY hoie n bwrY bwr ] (1366-1, slok, Bgq kbIr jI)
    kabeer maanas janam dulambh hai ho-ay na baarai baar.
    Kabeer, it is so difficult to obtain this human body; it does not just come over and over again.

    ijau bn Pl pwky Buie igrih bhuir n lwgih fwr ]30] (1366-1, slok, Bgq kbIr jI)
    ji-o ban fal paakay bhu-ay gireh bahur na laageh daar. ||30||
    It is like the ripe fruit on the tree; when it falls to the ground, it cannot be re-attached to the branch. ||30||

    kbIrw quhI kbIru qU qyro nwau kbIru ] (1366-2, slok, Bgq kbIr jI)
    kabeeraa tuhee kabeer too tayro naa-o kabeer.
    Kabeer, you are Kabeer; yo

    in the first shabad kabir ji wrote that some times he was beggar sometimes he was king in the second shabad kabir ji is saying that this human body does not come again
    i want to know from a scholar of gurbani why these shabads
    contradicts.
     
  2. S|kH

    S|kH SPNer

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    I'm far from a scholar...

    but, after reading just that shabad, this is what I intrepreted..

    He does not speak of "re-incarnation" so to say, he speaks of different cycles of life everyone goes through. There is always a time in your life, where ego gets to you, and you feel like a king...a time where you lose everything, and begin to beg for material wealth or mercy.

    The human body only becomes once, so defeat the useless cycle of life which plagues most humans...and attain something bigger, and brighter. You fall of a tree like an apple, only once...there's no way to get back on your branch...make the most of it.


    And when he says "womb this time" in the beginning, I take it as he refers to he has went everywhere in philosophical thinking, but finally he has reached God's realm...Nirvana.


    I know, a really elementary intrepration...but according to that logic, thats how he explains himself as feeling like a king, and all the other things.

    I just don't see this passage directly correlating to re-incarnation.
     
  3. kds1980

    kds1980 (previously Kanwardeep Singh) SPNer

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    sikh ji the first shabad is about reincarnation the first lines are
    gauVI kbIr jI ] (325-19)
    ga-orhee kabeer jee.
    Gauree, Kabeer Jee:

    AsQwvr jMgm kIt pqMgw ] (325-19, gauVI, kbIr jI)
    asthaavar jangam keet patangaa.
    The mobile and immobile creatures, insects and moths

    Aink jnm kIey bhu rMgw ]1] (325-19, gauVI, kbIr jI)
    anik janam kee-ay baho rangaa. ||1||
    - in numerous lifetimes, I have passed through those many forms. ||1||

    i read the punjabi translation of that shabad of pro sahib singh in his translation .he also says that shabad is about reincarnation.gyani sant singh ji maskeen also says that in his katha.

    here is another shabad in guru granth in which it is written that we have sins of countless past lives

    Basant, Fourth Mehl, Hindol:

    qum@ vf purK vf Agm gusweI hm kIry ikrm qumnCy ] (1178-10, bsMqu ihMfol, mÚ 4)
    tumH vad purakh vad agam gusaa-ee ham keeray kiram tumnachhay.
    You are the Great Supreme Being, the Vast and Inaccessible Lord of the World; I am a mere insect, a worm created by You.

    hir dIn dieAwl krhu pRB ikrpw gur siqgur crx hm bnCy ]1] (1178-10, bsMqu ihMfol, mÚ 4)
    har deen da-i-aal karahu parabh kirpaa gur satgur charan ham banchhay. ||1||
    O Lord, Merciful to the meek, please grant Your Grace; O God, I long for the feet of the Guru, the True Guru. ||1||

    goibMd jIau sqsMgiq myil kir ik®pCy ] (1178-11, bsMqu ihMfol, mÚ 4)
    gobind jee-o satsangat mayl kar kirpachhay.
    O Dear Lord of the Universe, please be merciful and unite me with the Sat Sangat, the True Congregation.

    jnm jnm ky iklivK mlu BirAw imil sMgiq kir pRB hnCy ]1] rhwau ] (1178-12, bsMqu ihMfol, mÚ 4)
    janam janam kay kilvikh mal bhari-aa mil sangat kar parabh hanchhay. ||1|| rahaa-o.
    I was overflowing with the filthy sins of countless past lives. But joining the Sangat, God made me pure again. ||1||Pause||

    qum@rw jnu jwiq Aivjwqw hir jipE piqq pvICy ] (1178-12, bsMqu ihMfol, mÚ 4)
    tumHraa jan jaat avijaataa har japi-o patit paveechhay.
    Your humble servant, whether of high class or low class, O Lord - by meditating on You, the sinner becomes pure.

    hir kIE sgl Bvn qy aUpir hir soBw hir pRB idnCy ]2] (1178-13, bsMqu ihMfol, mÚ 4)
    har kee-o sagal bhavan tay oopar har sobhaa har parabh dinchhay. ||2||
    The Lord exalts and elevates him above the whole world, and the Lord God blesses him with the Lord's Glory. ||2||

    jwiq Ajwiq koeI pRB iDAwvY siB pUry mwns iqnCy ] (1178-14, bsMqu ihMfol, mÚ 4)
    jaat ajaat ko-ee parabh Dhi-aavai sabh pooray maanas tinchhay.
    Anyone who meditates on God, whether of high class or low class, will have all of his hopes and desires fulfilled.

    sy DMin vfy vf pUry hir jn ijn@ hir DwirE hir aurCy ]3] (1178-14, bsMqu ihMfol, mÚ 4)
    say Dhan vaday vad pooray har jan jinH har Dhaari-o har urchhay. ||3||
    Those humble servants of the Lord who enshrine the Lord within their hearts, are blessed, and are made great and totally perfect. ||3||

    hm FINFy FIm bhuqu Aiq BwrI hir Dwir ik®pw pRB imlCy ] (1178-15, bsMqu ihMfol, mÚ 4)
    ham dheeNdhay dheem bahut at bhaaree har Dhaar kirpaa parabh milchhay.
    I am so low, I am an utterly heavy lump of clay. Please shower Your Mercy on me, Lord, and unite me with Yourself.

    jn nwnk guru pwieAw hir qUTy hm kIey piqq pvICy ]4]2]4] (1178-16, bsMqu ihMfol, mÚ 4)
    jan naanak gur paa-i-aa har toothay ham kee-ay patit paveechhay. ||4||2||4||
    The Lord, in His Mercy, has led servant Nanak to find the Guru; I was a sinner, and now I have become immaculate and pure.

    so there is no question of not beleiving in reincarnation as it is mentioned several times in gurbani
     
  4. S|kH

    S|kH SPNer

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    It still doesn't make sense...

    Re-incarnation can not be proven, and specifically what you were before can never be known (thats the whole point isnt it?)

    And, even at that...Guru Nanak never spoke all that much on after-death situations.

    I still believe theres something more poetic about the re-incarnaton lines than we are grasping.

    The maximum you can have is for someone to state the possibility of re-incarnation and the mechanism on how it works. But, as soon as he starts describing the trip through it, I tend to believe its a poetic reference to something else?

    If his main point was to stress re-incarnation, than why even go through specific life-forms, and exactly...why the life-forms he chose to write? Why not other ones? A King, a begger were all chosen for a reason...

    And if you believe Kabeer to be wise enough to actually be able to prove re-incarnation, and have gone through those life-forms and remembered it...then surely he'd be wise enough to not leave a contradictory statement like that.


    Looking at the rest of the quotes, the only one that seems to me to actually be fact of re-incarnation belief is "AsQwvr jMgm kIt pqMgw ] (325-19, gauVI, kbIr jI)
    asthaavar jangam keet patangaa.
    The mobile and immobile creatures, insects and moths

    Aink jnm kIey bhu rMgw ]1] (325-19, gauVI, kbIr jI)
    anik janam kee-ay baho rangaa. ||1||
    - in numerous lifetimes, I have passed through those many forms. ||1||"

    the rest of the other shabad also makes it.....sort of questionable?
     
  5. S|kH

    S|kH SPNer

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    I dont know...to me sins of countless past lives is a metaphor.
    I mean, the whole theory on joining the Khalsa Panth was like being "re-born" has been around for a while, and used metaphorically by Sikhs for a long time.

    They were "re-born" into the Panj Pyare...yet, everyone knows they werent actually re-born physically, but mentally.

    I'm sure you have heard a human saying the same thing about an experience in their life...
     
  6. kds1980

    kds1980 (previously Kanwardeep Singh) SPNer

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    dear sikh ji several times it is mentioned in guru granth sahib that all your sufferings are due to your past lives sins it has nothing to do with taking
    amrit.if we don't have don't have any past human lives then why the destiny of every human is diffrent.if a person is born mentally retarded then what
    is his fault.he can't do simran .will he go back to 84 lakh jooni cycle.
     
  7. kds1980

    kds1980 (previously Kanwardeep Singh) SPNer

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    here is another shabad from guru granth
    sloku ] (253-12)
    salok.
    Shalok:

    kuMt cwir dh idis BRmy krm ikriq kI ryK ] (253-12, gauVI, mÚ 5)
    kunt chaar dah dis bharamay karam kirat kee raykh.
    He wanders around in the four quarters and in the ten directions, according to the dictates of his karma.

    sUK dUK mukiq join nwnk iliKE lyK ]1] (253-12, gauVI, mÚ 5)
    sookh dookh mukat jon naanak likhi-o laykh. ||1||
    Pleasure and pain, liberation and reincarnation, O Nanak, come according to one's pre-ordained destiny. ||1||

    it is written in this shabad that we get everything according to our pre ordained destiny if we don't have any previous human life then why the destiny of every person is diffrent
     
  8. kds1980

    kds1980 (previously Kanwardeep Singh) SPNer

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    here is another shabad from guru granth
    sloku ] (253-12)
    salok.
    Shalok:

    kuMt cwir dh idis BRmy krm ikriq kI ryK ] (253-12, gauVI, mÚ 5)
    kunt chaar dah dis bharamay karam kirat kee raykh.
    He wanders around in the four quarters and in the ten directions, according to the dictates of his karma.

    sUK dUK mukiq join nwnk iliKE lyK ]1] (253-12, gauVI, mÚ 5)
    sookh dookh mukat jon naanak likhi-o laykh. ||1||
    Pleasure and pain, liberation and reincarnation, O Nanak, come according to one's pre-ordained destiny. ||1||

    it is written in this shabad that we get everything according to our pre ordained destiny if we don't have any previous human life then why the destiny of every person is diffrent
     
  9. devinesanative

    devinesanative SPNer

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    Dear Friends

    There is a difference Between ReProduction and Production.

    Reproduction means producing something from which has already been produced.

    Production means a fresh production starting from the scratch.

    Thought the above definitions are not exhaustive .......

    And We Human beings Reproduce .

    When you are born , you are not born , you are reproduced .

    You are reproduced out of your parents ......

    So , your parents Past life becomes yours .......

    If , a particular parent does some mistake , then it is bound that a new offspring reproduced may be mentally retarded ......

    When , you take birth ...... then you own life is responsible for your future destiny ......

    In a single life we are born and reborn many times ...........

    If scientifically be seen , each and every second old cells die and new cells are born .........
     
  10. S|kH

    S|kH SPNer

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    I dont quite understand how you need to believe in re-incarnation in order ot believe in why every human has a different destiny...

    If a person is born mentally retarded, it is not because of his past-life sins. It is because of the genetic-makeup failed.

    And I did not mean that the only time people use metaphors is when "taking amrit" and past life sins are different, but I was just using taking amrit as an example. There are terms such as "born-again" Christians...what if Kabeer was talking on those terms?



    Ok, there are certain things that can be seen as "pre-ordained" destiny, such as where you are born, who your parents are, and things of that nature. You do not decide those factors.

    As per the first line of the shabad, He wanders around the globe as per the dictates of his karma. It does not mean that he actually travels the world, it means "he reaps what he sows". I feel thats a very straight forward line and in no means is to be taken literally.

    As per the second line, think of it...if we take the factors that I state are a part of our pre-ordained destiny..than re-incarnation simply comes in the fact that if you father mistreats your mom, and you grow up in such an enivornment, you will fall into the same trap. You do not become liberated, until you wish so, since God is in us. Until you make the action to become liberated...by your karma, by your "reap what you sow". Pleasure, and Pain can come according to one's preordained destiny such that...some parents are nice to their children, some are not. Some parents will help their children become liberated, others will not. Some children will fall right back into the footsteps of the deceitful lives they see infront of them, and will be forever stuck in the wasteless human cycle i.e. re-incarnation. They won't get beyond watching "MTV" on tv ;)
     
  11. S|kH

    S|kH SPNer

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    Devinesanative summed up pretty much what I was going to say.
     
  12. kds1980

    kds1980 (previously Kanwardeep Singh) SPNer

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    i agree with it that a person is born mentally retarded because of its genes.but if genes are everything then who is god.what are the spiritual reason behind taking birth as mentally retarded.and where that person will
    go.does it mean that god discriminates between its people

    as for the reincarnation theory many people have confirmed this theory by their previous lives experiances.here is the site where you can read their experiances
    http://www.childpastlives.org/
     
  13. devinesanative

    devinesanative SPNer

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    Dear Friend ,

    There are many sites which claim so much ..........

    There is one site which can calculate you Death time ....

    Death.com ........

    But upon closely probing it ........ they were actually selling their products .......

    The funda of calculating the Death time was to presell their products ..... this is marketing concept .........

    As far as reincarnation or rebirth is concerned , I am also researching and have found some amazing facts about it ............

    Please wait ....
     
  14. devinesanative

    devinesanative SPNer

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    Dear friend ,

    There may have been a time when you were thinking that your friend should call you or you should call your friend , and just after that you recieve a call ........

    Or

    When you are with your friend or family in the mall or market place , And as you are thinking about something , just after the fraction of the secornd you family member or friend says the samething which you were just thinking ........


    Here the rebirth , and the above concept is somewhere connected .........
     
  15. kds1980

    kds1980 (previously Kanwardeep Singh) SPNer

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    there are many funny sites but this site has a forum where people like you and me have debates about their past lives.these people have their memories of their past lives.even their are scientists who are doing research on this subject.a case was shown on discovery channel of a girl which remember everything about her previous life .she even told about the place of her death . the scientist that was doing research on this subject
    found her previous life parents.all the things she told about herself was found true.you should read some books on this subject
     
  16. kds1980

    kds1980 (previously Kanwardeep Singh) SPNer

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    this is not rebirth this is telepathy.i experienced this several times
    btw you haven't answer my question that if genes are everything then who is god.why he discriminate between its people
     
  17. devinesanative

    devinesanative SPNer

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    Dear Friend ,

    In this world there are two type of Questions :

    1) For which any one can answer it or the answer can be found .
    2) This second type of question has no answers , their answers can be sought only by experience .

    Questions Related to : LOVE , LIFE , GOD , DEATH cannot be answered , they can only be experienced ...........

    As far as rebirth is concerned , my thesis is very long and , so I have to cut it short , and will post soon .............
     
  18. kds1980

    kds1980 (previously Kanwardeep Singh) SPNer

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    dear devinsanative ji and sikh ji all the religions beleive that our soul is eternal
    all the abrahamic faith beleive that we have only one chance after that we will go in heaven or hell according to our deeds
    while all the indian faiths beleive in reincarnation theory.
    all the atheists beleive that death is the end
    i want to know which theory you people beleive
     
  19. rosethorne

    rosethorne SPNer

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    Dear Gursikhs, Gurbani says about re-incarnation is very true. As per Gursikhi we are not capable to say no to Gurbani. May be anyone can say it orthodox or illitrate person. But GURU SAHEB, so many times in SGGS Maharaj, said to gursikhs only, anyone can see or hear it, but the truth is revealed only by the Gursikhs. One has to be surrendered to Guru Saheb. After surrendering to Guru Saheb a gursikh surely reach to Eternal and True Lord= Waheguru. Incarnation is true when if it is said in SGGS Maharaj. It is a duty of A true Gursikh, That he willnot make its meanings of his own.

    rwmklI mhlw 5 ] qU dwnw qU Aibclu qUhI qU jwiq myrI pwqI ] qU Afolu kdy folih nwhI qw hm kYsI qwqI ]1] eykY eykY eyk qUhI ] eykY eykY qU rwieAw ] qau ikrpw qy suKu pwieAw ]1] rhwau ] qU swgru hm hMs qumwry qum mih mwxk lwlw ] qum dyvhu iqlu sMk n mwnhu hm BuMch sdw inhwlw ]2] hm bwirk qum ipqw hmwry qum muiK dyvhu KIrw ] hm Kylh siB lwf lfwvh qum sd guxI ghIrw ]3] qum pUrn pUir rhy sMpUrn hm BI sMig AGwey ] imlq imlq imlq imil rihAw nwnk khxu n jwey ]4]6] (pMnw884)


    RAAMKALEE, FIFTH MEHL: You are wise; You are eternal and unchanging. You are my social class and honor. You are unmoving - You never move at all. How can I be worried? || 1 || You alone are the One and only Lord; You alone are the king. By Your Grace, I have found peace. || 1 || Pause || You are the ocean, and I am Your swan; the pearls and rubies are in You. You give, and You do not hesitate for an instant; I receive, forever enraptured. || 2 || I am Your child, and You are my father; You place the milk in my mouth. I play with You, and You caress me in every way. You are forever the ocean of excellence. || 3 || You are perfect, perfectly all-pervading; I am fulfilled with You as well. I am merged, merged, merged and remain merged; O Nanak, I cannot describe it! || 4 || 6 || (Page884)







     
  20. drkhalsa

    drkhalsa SPNer

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    Dear Khalsa ji

    There are manu other examples in our gurbani which pionts to Reincarnation one of it is to add to above is
    gourree chaethee mehalaa 1 ||
    Gauree Chaytee, First Mehl:

    kath kee maaee baap kath kaeraa kidhoo thhaavahu ham aaeae ||
    Who is our mother, and who is our father? Where did we come from?

    Agin ibMb jl BIqir inpjy kwhy kMim aupwey ]1]
    agan bi(n)b jal bheethar nipajae kaahae ka(n)m oupaaeae ||1||
    We are formed from the fire of the womb within, and the bubble of water of the sperm. For what purpose are we created? ||1||

    maerae saahibaa koun jaanai gun thaerae ||
    O my Master, who can know Your Glorious Virtues?

    kehae n jaanee aougan maerae ||1|| rehaao ||
    My own demerits cannot be counted. ||1||Pause||

    kaethae rukh birakh ham cheenae kaethae pasoo oupaaeae ||
    I took the form of so many plants and trees, and so many animals.
    kaethae naag kulee mehi aaeae kaethae pa(n)kh ouddaaeae ||2||
    Many times I entered the families of snakes and flying birds. ||2||

    hatt pattan bij ma(n)dhar bha(n)nai kar choree ghar aavai ||
    I broke into the shops of the city and well-guarded palaces; stealing from them, I snuck home again.

    agahu dhaekhai pishhahu dhaekhai thujh thae kehaa shhapaavai ||3||
    I looked in front of me, and I looked behind me, but where could I hide from You? ||3||

    thatt theerathh ham nav kha(n)dd dhaekhae hatt pattan baajaaraa ||
    I saw the banks of sacred rivers, the nine continents, the shops and bazaars of the cities.

    lai kai thakarree tholan laagaa ghatt hee mehi vanajaaraa ||4||
    Taking the scale, the merchant begins to weigh his actions within his own heart. ||4||

    jaethaa samu(n)dh saagar neer bhariaa thaethae aougan hamaarae ||
    As the seas and the oceans are overflowing with water, so vast are my own sins.

    dhaeiaa karahu kishh mihar oupaavahu ddubadhae pathhar thaarae ||5||
    Please, shower me with Your Mercy, and take pity upon me. I am a sinking stone - please carry me across! ||5||

    jeearraa agan baraabar thapai bheethar vagai kaathee ||
    My soul is burning like fire, and the knife is cutting deep.

    pranavath naanak hukam pashhaanai sukh hovai dhin raathee ||6||5||17||
    Prays Nanak, recognizing the Lord's Command, I am at peace, day and night. ||6||5||17||

    Guru Nanak, Raag Gauree, Page 156

    Dear khalsa ji that
    if we take very straight forward meaning looks pointing more toward to reincarnation but still my personal understanding is not enough to understand full the message in our Guru Granth Sahib while i have no doubt about our Guruji bit my understanding still not good enough but as per my current understanding i believe in reincarnation may akal gives more clear understanding
    I have one account of disscusion done on the topic by very revolutionary and enlightened soul but not related to Sikhism but his logical way of thinking helps lot of people to relate with many such issues actually I am taling about Jidu Krishnamurti I will post that disscusion here it may help you in futher understanding the concept

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