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Shabad of the Week: Man Pankhi Bha-i-o Ud Ud Dah dis Ja-e

Discussion in 'Shabad of the Week' started by findingmyway, Apr 27, 2013.

  1. findingmyway

    findingmyway
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    These are saloks of Sant Kabir ji. They appear on Ang 1369. There is no rehao. The translation is by Dr. Sant Singh Khalsa. spnadmin



    ਕਬੀਰ ਮਨੁ ਪੰਖੀ ਭਇਓ ਉਡਿ ਉਡਿ ਦਹ ਦਿਸ ਜਾਇ ॥
    Kabīr man pankẖī bẖa▫i▫o ud ud ḏah ḏis jā▫e.
    Kabeer, the mind has become a bird; it soars and flies in the ten directions.

    ਜੋ ਜੈਸੀ ਸੰਗਤਿ ਮਿਲੈ ਸੋ ਤੈਸੋ ਫਲੁ ਖਾਇ ॥੮੬॥
    Jo jaisī sangaṯ milai so ṯaiso fal kẖā▫e. ||86||
    According to the company it keeps, so are the fruits it eats. ||86||

    ਕਬੀਰ ਜਾ ਕਉ ਖੋਜਤੇ ਪਾਇਓ ਸੋਈ ਠਉਰੁ ॥
    Kabīr jā ka▫o kẖojṯe pā▫i▫o so▫ī ṯẖa▫ur.
    Kabeer, you have found that place which you were seeking.

    ਸੋਈ ਫਿਰਿ ਕੈ ਤੂ ਭਇਆ ਜਾ ਕਉ ਕਹਤਾ ਅਉਰੁ ॥੮੭॥
    So▫ī fir kai ṯū bẖa▫i▫ā jā ka▫o kahṯā a▫or. ||87||
    You have become that which you thought was separate from yourself. ||87||

    ਕਬੀਰ ਮਾਰੀ ਮਰਉ ਕੁਸੰਗ ਕੀ ਕੇਲੇ ਨਿਕਟਿ ਜੁ ਬੇਰਿ ॥
    Kabīr mārī mara▫o kusang kī kele nikat jo ber.
    Kabeer, I have been ruined and destroyed by bad company, like the banana plant near the thorn bush.

    ਉਹ ਝੂਲੈ ਉਹ ਚੀਰੀਐ ਸਾਕਤ ਸੰਗੁ ਨ ਹੇਰਿ ॥੮੮॥
    Uh jẖūlai uh cẖīrī▫ai sākaṯ sang na her. ||88||
    The thorn bush waves in the wind, and pierces the banana plant; see this, and do not associate with the faithless cynics. ||88||

    ਕਬੀਰ ਭਾਰ ਪਰਾਈ ਸਿਰਿ ਚਰੈ ਚਲਿਓ ਚਾਹੈ ਬਾਟ ॥
    Kabīr bẖār parā▫ī sir cẖarai cẖali▫o cẖāhai bāt.
    Kabeer, the mortal wants to walk on the path, carrying the load of others' sins on his head.

    ਅਪਨੇ ਭਾਰਹਿ ਨਾ ਡਰੈ ਆਗੈ ਅਉਘਟ ਘਾਟ ॥੮੯॥
    Apne bẖārėh nā darai āgai a▫ugẖat gẖāt. ||89||
    He is not afraid of his own load of sins; the road ahead shall be difficult and treacherous. ||89||

    ਕਬੀਰ ਬਨ ਕੀ ਦਾਧੀ ਲਾਕਰੀ ਠਾਢੀ ਕਰੈ ਪੁਕਾਰ ॥
    Kabīr ban kī ḏāḏẖī lākrī ṯẖādẖī karai pukār.
    Kabeer, the forest is burning; the tree standing in it is crying out,

    ਮਤਿ ਬਸਿ ਪਰਉ ਲੁਹਾਰ ਕੇ ਜਾਰੈ ਦੂਜੀ ਬਾਰ ॥੯੦॥
    Maṯ bas para▫o luhār ke jārai ḏūjī bār. ||90||
    Do not let me fall into the hands of the blacksmith, who would burn me a second time. ||90||

    ਕਬੀਰ ਏਕ ਮਰੰਤੇ ਦੁਇ ਮੂਏ ਦੋਇ ਮਰੰਤਹ ਚਾਰਿ ॥
    Kabīr ek maranṯe ḏu▫e mū▫e ḏo▫e maranṯah cẖār.
    Kabeer, when one died, two were dead. When two died, four were dead.

    ਚਾਰਿ ਮਰੰਤਹ ਛਹ ਮੂਏ ਚਾਰਿ ਪੁਰਖ ਦੁਇ ਨਾਰਿ ॥੯੧॥
    Cẖār maranṯah cẖẖah mū▫e cẖār purakẖ ḏu▫e nār. ||91||
    When four died, six were dead, four males and two females. ||91||

    ਕਬੀਰ ਦੇਖਿ ਦੇਖਿ ਜਗੁ ਢੂੰਢਿਆ ਕਹੂੰ ਨ ਪਾਇਆ ਠਉਰੁ ॥
    Kabīr ḏekẖ ḏekẖ jag dẖūʼndẖi▫ā kahū▫aʼn na pā▫i▫ā ṯẖa▫ur.
    Kabeer, I have seen and observed, and searched all over the world, but I have found no place of rest anywhere.

    ਜਿਨਿ ਹਰਿ ਕਾ ਨਾਮੁ ਨ ਚੇਤਿਓ ਕਹਾ ਭੁਲਾਨੇ ਅਉਰ ॥੯੨॥
    Jin har kā nām na cẖeṯi▫o kahā bẖulāne a▫or. ||92||
    Those who do not remember the Lord's Name - why do they delude themselves in other pursuits? ||92||

    ਕਬੀਰ ਸੰਗਤਿ ਕਰੀਐ ਸਾਧ ਕੀ ਅੰਤਿ ਕਰੈ ਨਿਰਬਾਹੁ ॥
    Kabīr sangaṯ karī▫ai sāḏẖ kī anṯ karai nirbāhu.
    Kabeer, associate with the Holy people, who will take you to Nirvaanaa in the end.

    ਸਾਕਤ ਸੰਗੁ ਨ ਕੀਜੀਐ ਜਾ ਤੇ ਹੋਇ ਬਿਨਾਹੁ ॥੯੩॥
    Sākaṯ sang na kījī▫ai jā ṯe ho▫e bināhu. ||93||
    Do not associate with the faithless cynics; they would bring you to ruin. ||93||
     

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  3. spnadmin

    spnadmin United States
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    Naturally there is no substitute for the insights of respected forum moderator findingmyway ji. However, some of us may be deeply intrigued by the puzzles Sant Kabir ji places before us, and we may want to start discussing what these verses are telling us.

    What is most striking to you about these saloks?

    Here are some other questions to think about.


    Could this verse be a good substitute for the "rehao?"


    The thorn bush waves in the wind, and pierces the banana plant; see this, and do not associate with the faithless cynics.

    Professor Manmohan Singh translates it differently to say
    Kabir, I am destroyed and ruined by the evil company, like the plantain near the wild caper.

    What ideas come to mind as you read these 2 verses?

    He is not afraid of his own load of sins?
    Kabeer, the mortal wants to walk on the path, carrying the load of others' sins on his head.
    He is not afraid of his own load of sins; the road ahead shall be difficult and treacherous. ||89||


    Who or what is the tree that is crying out?


    Kabeer, the forest is burning; the tree standing in it is crying out,


    Who is the "blacksmith?" in this pangatee?

    Do not let me fall into the hands of the blacksmith, who would burn me a second time.


    Why does Kabir ji say

    when one died, two then four and then six were dead?


    Why does Kabir ji say "I have found no place of rest anywhere?"

    Kabeer, I have seen and observed, and searched all over the world, but I have found no place of rest anywhere.

    :welcomemunda:
     
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  4. Ambarsaria

    Ambarsaria Canada
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    Findingmyway ji thanks for your post.
    <iframe src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/eakKfY5aHmY?feature=player_detailpage" allowfullscreen="" frameborder="0" height="360" width="640"></iframe>

    ESSENCE: If you watch the above video and greater confluence of starlings as association and your mind as a starling in the midst. You will get the message of this shabad so easily.

    Company of the pious (Sadh Sangat) encouraged to again and again in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji as by Kabir ji.

    I may be wrong but the authors like Kabir ji were the greatest of observers and used these observations of common occurrence to provide wisdom of their teachings.

    I stand corrected and all errors are mine.

    Sat Sri Akal.

    PS: Beyond understanding if you want to enjoy the beauty of Gurbani in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, look for the environs and metaphors or similes to actual references to referred happenings.
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  5. findingmyway

    findingmyway
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    Thanks Spnadmin ji for starting things off. Here is my understanding in blue:

    <!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <o:OfficeDocumentSettings> <o:AllowPNG/> </o:OfficeDocumentSettings> </xml><![endif]--> ਕਬੀਰ ਮਨੁ ਪੰਖੀ ਭਇਓ ਉਡਿ ਉਡਿ ਦਹ ਦਿਸ ਜਾਇ ॥
    Kabīr man pankẖī bẖa▫i▫o ud ud ḏah ḏis jā▫e.


    Kabeer has accepted that the mind of a manmukh is like a bird, leaving the protection of Ik Oankaar and flitting here there and everywhere, in 10 different directions after material things.

    ਜੋ ਜੈਸੀ ਸੰਗਤਿ ਮਿਲੈ ਸੋ ਤੈਸੋ ਫਲੁ ਖਾਇ ॥੮੬॥
    Jo jaisī sangaṯ milai so ṯaiso fal kẖā▫e. ||86||


    A person behaves according to the company they keep. (I’m sure everyone reading this can identify with this, when you are with a negative person it is easy to slip into that way of thinking. When you are with a positive person, you become uplifted and happier too.)

    ਕਬੀਰ ਜਾ ਕਉ ਖੋਜਤੇ ਪਾਇਓ ਸੋਈ ਠਉਰੁ ॥
    Kabīr jā ka▫o kẖojṯe pā▫i▫o so▫ī ṯẖa▫ur.


    While remaining in the service of Ik Oankaar, Kabeer has found that place which he was seeking – in the service of the creator.

    ਸੋਈ ਫਿਰਿ ਕੈ ਤੂ ਭਇਆ ਜਾ ਕਉ ਕਹਤਾ ਅਉਰੁ ॥੮੭॥
    So▫ī fir kai ṯū bẖa▫i▫ā jā ka▫o kahṯā a▫or. ||87||


    You previously thought the Creator separate to yourself, and call her ‘someone else’, you have become aware through seva that you are intermingled/combined. You are a reflection of the Creator yourself! ||87||

    ਕਬੀਰ ਮਾਰੀ ਮਰਉ ਕੁਸੰਗ ਕੀ ਕੇਲੇ ਨਿਕਟਿ ਜੁ ਬੇਰਿ ॥
    Kabīr mārī mara▫o kusang kī kele nikat jo ber.


    O Kabeer, never keep the company of those gripped in the claws of separation as they are ruined and experience spiritual death, like the banana plant withers near a jujube plant. I did some research on banana plants and jujube trees but could not find any specific information. The banana plany likes other banana plants and does not do well in shade. The jujube tree seems to tower and needs lots of space so I do not think the 2 go together! The jujube tree is also a spiny tree and is known as Christ’s thorns.

    ਉਹ ਝੂਲੈ ਉਹ ਚੀਰੀਐ ਸਾਕਤ ਸੰਗੁ ਨ ਹੇਰਿ ॥੮੮॥
    Uh jẖūlai uh cẖīrī▫ai sākaṯ sang na her. ||88||


    The jujube branches dance in the wind, and pierces the banana; see this, and do not be pierced by those who will bring you down.

    ਕਬੀਰ ਭਾਰ ਪਰਾਈ ਸਿਰਿ ਚਰੈ ਚਲਿਓ ਚਾਹੈ ਬਾਟ ॥
    Kabīr bẖār parā▫ī sir cẖarai cẖali▫o cẖāhai bāt.


    O Kabeer, with bad company, the load of bad deeds is carried on your head while walking the path of life.

    ਅਪਨੇ ਭਾਰਹਿ ਨਾ ਡਰੈ ਆਗੈ ਅਉਘਟ ਘਾਟ ॥੮੯॥
    Apne bẖārėh nā darai āgai a▫ugẖat gẖāt. ||89||


    A person has in front of him/herself a dangerous and difficult path. (S)he does not know how to remember the load of their own actions.

    ਕਬੀਰ ਬਨ ਕੀ ਦਾਧੀ ਲਾਕਰੀ ਠਾਢੀ ਕਰੈ ਪੁਕਾਰ ॥
    Kabīr ban kī ḏāḏẖī lākrī ṯẖādẖī karai pukār.


    Kabeer, listen carefully to understand, when the forest is burnt; the remaining trees standing amongst the ashes cry out.


    ਮਤਿ ਬਸਿ ਪਰਉ ਲੁਹਾਰ ਕੇ ਜਾਰੈ ਦੂਜੀ ਬਾਰ ॥੯੦॥
    Maṯ bas para▫o luhār ke jārai ḏūjī bār. ||90||


    “Do not let me fall into the hands of the blacksmith, who will burn me a second time.”

    ਕਬੀਰ ਏਕ ਮਰੰਤੇ ਦੁਇ ਮੂਏ ਦੋਇ ਮਰੰਤਹ ਚਾਰਿ ॥
    Kabīr ek maranṯe ḏu▫e mū▫e ḏo▫e maranṯah cẖār.


    Kabeer, when one died, two were dead (across castes so such pride is useless). When two died, four were dead.

    ਚਾਰਿ ਮਰੰਤਹ ਛਹ ਮੂਏ ਚਾਰਿ ਪੁਰਖ ਦੁਇ ਨਾਰਿ ॥੯੧॥
    Cẖār maranṯah cẖẖah mū▫e cẖār purakẖ ḏu▫e nār. ||91||


    Two more died from bad company making six - four males and two females. (Let the people who state men need warnings about women chew on this sentence in our Guru! If that were the case then why is it more men affected by bad company!!)

    ਕਬੀਰ ਦੇਖਿ ਦੇਖਿ ਜਗੁ ਢੂੰਢਿਆ ਕਹੂੰ ਨ ਪਾਇਆ ਠਉਰੁ ॥
    Kabīr ḏekẖ ḏekẖ jag dẖūʼndẖi▫ā kahū▫aʼn na pā▫i▫ā ṯẖa▫ur.


    O Kabeer, I have spent much effort on searching the whole world, but I have not found a single place where the mind does not wander. NOTE: it is not the place the state of mind that brings peace.

    ਜਿਨਿ ਹਰਿ ਕਾ ਨਾਮੁ ਨ ਚੇਤਿਓ ਕਹਾ ਭੁਲਾਨੇ ਅਉਰ ॥੯੨॥
    Jin har kā nām na cẖeṯi▫o kahā bẖulāne a▫or. ||92||


    Those who do not live as Gurmukhs, they do not find peace anywhere. The peace found in the sangat who lives in Hukam, stops a person drifting so why are you looking for peace in different places?

    ਕਬੀਰ ਸੰਗਤਿ ਕਰੀਐ ਸਾਧ ਕੀ ਅੰਤਿ ਕਰੈ ਨਿਰਬਾਹੁ ॥
    Kabīr sangaṯ karī▫ai sāḏẖ kī anṯ karai nirbāhu.


    Kabeer, there is only 1 solution for the peace of the mind – the sadh sangat. Join with a true sangat and they will support you until the end.

    ਸਾਕਤ ਸੰਗੁ ਨ ਕੀਜੀਐ ਜਾ ਤੇ ਹੋਇ ਬਿਨਾਹੁ ॥੯੩॥
    Sākaṯ sang na kījī▫ai jā ṯe ho▫e bināhu. ||93||


    Associating with those without morals, or a Godly conscious will kill your soul.


    The essence of the lines by Kabir ji are teaching us important lessons about the company we keep as a key for mental and spiritual peace/well being. Place is not important, but our environs are.
     
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  6. Luckysingh

    Luckysingh Canada
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    Thanks Findingmywayji, that was very helpful.
    I would just like to add my own interpretation as well.
    But I think that the One pangti is much deeper than we all think, but I still haven't worked it out (see below -lines 91)


    ਕਬੀਰ ਜਾ ਕਉ ਖੋਜਤੇ ਪਾਇਓ ਸੋਈ ਠਉਰੁ ॥
    Kabīr jā ka▫o kẖojṯe pā▫i▫o so▫ī ṯẖa▫ur.
    Kabeer, you have found that place which you were seeking.

    ਸੋਈ ਫਿਰਿ ਕੈ ਤੂ ਭਇਆ ਜਾ ਕਉ ਕਹਤਾ ਅਉਰੁ ॥੮੭॥
    So▫ī fir kai ṯū bẖa▫i▫ā jā ka▫o kahṯā a▫or. ||87||
    You have become that which you thought was separate from yourself. ||87||

    The duality separates us from Him. When one's conscious merges with the supreme, they realize that the separation and duality was only evident because of own ego and haumai.

    ਕਬੀਰ ਮਾਰੀ ਮਰਉ ਕੁਸੰਗ ਕੀ ਕੇਲੇ ਨਿਕਟਿ ਜੁ ਬੇਰਿ ॥
    Kabīr mārī mara▫o kusang kī kele nikat jo ber.
    Kabeer, I have been ruined and destroyed by bad company, like the banana plant near the thorn bush.

    ਉਹ ਝੂਲੈ ਉਹ ਚੀਰੀਐ ਸਾਕਤ ਸੰਗੁ ਨ ਹੇਰਿ ॥੮੮॥
    Uh jẖūlai uh cẖīrī▫ai sākaṯ sang na her. ||88||
    The thorn bush waves in the wind, and pierces the banana plant; see this, and do not associate with the faithless cynics. ||88||

    A thorn bush is nearly always present near where other flowers and fruits of beauty and taste are. A single thorn bush can continue to damage as many fruits and flowers as the wind contact may allow.
    As Kabir ji talked about avoiding the groups of bad company in the beginning, here he is saying that just a few within a good group can taint and damage the majority as well.

    ਕਬੀਰ ਭਾਰ ਪਰਾਈ ਸਿਰਿ ਚਰੈ ਚਲਿਓ ਚਾਹੈ ਬਾਟ ॥
    Kabīr bẖār parā▫ī sir cẖarai cẖali▫o cẖāhai bāt.
    Kabeer, the mortal wants to walk on the path, carrying the load of others' sins on his head.
    ਅਪਨੇ ਭਾਰਹਿ ਨਾ ਡਰੈ ਆਗੈ ਅਉਘਟ ਘਾਟ ॥੮੯॥
    Apne bẖārėh nā darai āgai a▫ugẖat gẖāt. ||89]|
    He is not afraid of his own load of sins; the road ahead shall be difficult and treacherous. ||89||

    This one is interesting since the shabad is talking about the 'MIND' and how the mind wanders like a bird without knowing a specifc direction.
    I think this line is not talking much about hanging with one's who have committed physical crimes as such, but more about how they commit crimes with 'MIND'.
    This is probably the bad mouthing, slandering, nindiya, gossip and all of that where people find comfort by being at ease within the group whilst slandering others outside.
    This is why, Kabirji states that the ONE is NOT afraid of their own sins, since they don't realize as they were probably joining in the slandering..etc.. When ONE is in a group doing this but not specifically initiating, then they feel they may not be guilty. But because they are acknowledging the bad mouthing and encouraging the others 'mind' with their 'mind', then they are just as guilty!!



    ਕਬੀਰ ਬਨ ਕੀ ਦਾਧੀ ਲਾਕਰੀ ਠਾਢੀ ਕਰੈ ਪੁਕਾਰ ॥
    Kabīr ban kī ḏāḏẖī lākrī ṯẖādẖī karai pukār.
    Kabeer, the forest is burning; the tree standing in it is crying out,
    ਮਤਿ ਬਸਿ ਪਰਉ ਲੁਹਾਰ ਕੇ ਜਾਰੈ ਦੂਜੀ ਬਾਰ ॥੯੦॥
    Maṯ bas para▫o luhār ke jārai ḏūjī bār. ||90||
    Do not let me fall into the hands of the blacksmith, who would burn me a second time. ||90||

    The crimes and desires of the mind will lead to one's own self destruction.
    (I remember a shabad by Kabirji where he talked about the pleasures and desires of the mind that set oneself on a burning fire and then the person seeks the coolng water which is the Lord's name.)- I think this burning is similar since Kabirji's works and metaphors are usually related.
    Thus, when one is burning like the tree, then one is crying out to be saved from among the rest.
    I think the 'Blacksmith' in this case is another evil doer with bad, negative, slandering, ego boosting desires within the mind. The wood from the tree is burnt to charcoal or carbon, but the blacksmith burns this charcoal even further for welding and metal making.
    So, the burnt person like the charcoal gets burnt further a second time for this evil doer's own good!!


    ਕਬੀਰ ਏਕ ਮਰੰਤੇ ਦੁਇ ਮੂਏ ਦੋਇ ਮਰੰਤਹ ਚਾਰਿ ॥
    Kabīr ek maranṯe ḏu▫e mū▫e ḏo▫e maranṯah cẖār.
    Kabeer, when one died, two were dead. When two died, four were dead.
    ਚਾਰਿ ਮਰੰਤਹ ਛਹ ਮੂਏ ਚਾਰਿ ਪੁਰਖ ਦੁਇ ਨਾਰਿ ॥੯੧॥
    Cẖār maranṯah cẖẖah mū▫e cẖār purakẖ ḏu▫e nār. ||91||
    When four died, six were dead, four males and two females. ||91||

    I believe that this is talking about the MIND here as well and the death of it's wrong wanderings.
    I 'm not too sure but need some help if someone could translate the teeka clearly.
    I tried to look at it but couldn't make much sense of it. However, I gathered that it is about the 5 evils and how the knock on affect can arise after death of the duality !!
    I think that killing ego/haumai gives to death of the 2 dualities ??
    OR maybe that death of EGO(1) results in death of duality(2) and then we attain death of Kaam(3) krodh (4) Moh(5) and lobh or greed (6). Then are 2 of these feminine in terms of grammar ??
     
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  7. spnadmin

    spnadmin United States
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    Lucky ji

    Thanks for taking up the questions. I was the one that posted them. Kabir ji is sometimes easier than he seems and sometimes more difficult. Ambasaria ji give helpful guidance when he says we should read Kabir ji with a eye to the experience of life, of nature, around us.

    The clue to the one... two...four ... six comes when you think of "self" and then the "five." When one dies, six die in the end.

    Great answers.
     
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  8. Harry Haller

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    you are what you think, more than what you do

    Water your weeds, they will grow, Water your flowers, they will grow, what do you want, weeds of flowers?

    Being good is easier than emulating good.

    Avoid those that make lies the truth, they cannot tell the difference, you can, there is nothing to learn here, plenty to lose

    you may end up paying the price not only for your own shortcomings, but for others too.

    All actions and thoughts have consequences, some bring forth peace,love, happiness, some will take you to the fire.

    the thieves, and ultimately the part of us that cannot see past the fog

    the place of rest, sachkhand, the land of the truth, it cannot be found, it cannot be reached by car or plane, it can only be experienced by aligning our will with that of Creator, anything else is lip service

    When we associate, we learn, we fill in gaps, from a wise person, we can fill in the gaps with sturdy, hardy well thought out substances that will serve us well, from a fool, we will only get something that looks nice, for about five minutes, then falls out taking a chunk of our soul with it. Ruin or perfection, it is our choice.
     
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  9. BlazinSikh

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    Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa, Waheguru Ji Ke Fateh!

    This shabad by Sant Baba Kabir Ji really speaks to me, i just wish i had read this in my early teenage years to saved from the bad sangat i used to "roll with", but hey whatever!

    However i do have a questions to ask:

    1) In this shabad, and in other angs within Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, its states that one should not associate with bad company or with faithless cynics. However my question is what if i have a friend who does not believe in GOD, yes he is an atheist, however he is not your typical atheist who mocks GOD or any other religions, even for an atheist he is quite interested in religion and different concepts of GOD, but he's like my brother from another mother we somewhat nearly experienced the same childhood and early teenage life, and also have certain political beliefs which we agree upon. So would it be wrong to associate with him has he is a faithless cynic?

    Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa, Waheguru Ji Ke Fateh!
     
  10. Harry Haller

    Harry Haller United Kingdom
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    My shop is in a particularly rough area, I count among my customers drug users, drug dealers, prostitutes, and quite a few atheists!

    They all know the rules, my shop is an area where they are just people, without the badges that they may be proud to wear outside, they are just people, are they bad people just because they are blatantly in breach of certain laws? would it be better to only have good respectable people in my shop, but how would I know what they think, would a good respectable person be allowed in, even if they secretly thought about cheating on their spouse? or what about a priest who secretly abuses children, would he be allowed in, provided he looked and acted like a priest?

    Sikhism is supposed to be a progressive modern 'religion', and I use the word sparingly, as like dear Tejwantji, I do not view Sikhism as a religion, how would your friend feel if you rang him up and said 'hey look we can't talk anymore, I am not allowed', he would think you were a numpty!

    Sikhism is not about rules, and following rules does not make a Sikh, it is about wisdom, understanding, enlightenment.

    I am no specialist in Gurmukhi, but could it be that the essence is not to take on board concepts or facets from someone who is clearly on the wrong path, rather than shun them altogether.
     
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  11. spnadmin

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    It's best not to micro-analyze the shabad guru. Just my opinion. Even Guru Nanak consorted with a thief and with Babar (so go the janamsakhis).

    But he was a teacher, even a teacher to a thief and a barbarian.

    Continual exposure to promiscuous abuse, manipulation, greed, extortion, lies, and violence creates "the faithless cynic." It leads to chronic hopelessness, just as a cynic has hardened himself against any hope that good can prevail over evil. The shabad speaks to that. One learns hope, learns good can prevail if you allow it to prevail. And one learns to be a person of character by hanging out (making satsangh) with other people of character.

    That is part of the message. The broader meaning goes much deeper. It describes the work we must do within ourselves. It speaks to how we must change ourselves in spite of the faithless cynics.
     
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  12. findingmyway

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    BlazinSikh ji, if you notice in my interpretation I never use the words faithless cynic as it is a huge mistranslation! I understand God conscious as not necessarily believing in God, but thinking beyond themself. A God conscious person is someone who's good side outweighs their bad side and they are able to think of others and others' needs.
     
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  13. findingmyway

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    I am thoroughly enjoying this thread. Its wonderful how different people see different things in Kabir ji's poetry. I am learning so much :cheerleaders:

    I have been pondering but there is one line that I am stuck on:
    ਚਾਰਿ ਮਰੰਤਹ ਛਹ ਮੂਏ ਚਾਰਿ ਪੁਰਖ ਦੁਇ ਨਾਰਿ ॥੯੧॥
    Cẖār maranṯah cẖẖah mū▫e cẖār purakẖ ḏu▫e nār. ||91||

    Why are male and female specifically mentioned. The Guru's believed in gender equality so it is definitely not referring to humans but what does it really mean?
     
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  14. Luckysingh

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    This is what was bothering me !!
    I later came to the point about it referring to the grammar contexts of the minds weaknesses.
    That's why I asked if someone could make sense of the teekas a little clearly, I think faridkots seemed a little promising!

    Also, I remember reading some story somewhere that was based on something similar to this!! It was about a hunter killing a deer that was pregnant with twins and then he too got killed and his wife somehow.....(something like that?)
    anyway, the moral pointed in a similar direction that the minds properties were represented by a certain being !!
    I'm not sure who or where I came across this but it has gotten me curious and I have this feeling that the answer may be there !!!
     
  15. spnadmin

    spnadmin United States
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    I was waiting for Luckysingh ji to figure it out.
    OK - The previous says when "one" died, and then a progression of 2 died, then 4 died, then 6 died. It is a signature of Kabir to build in a mathematical or alphabetical puzzle.

    "One" is the self or false self consciousness. When One dies 5 other evils die with it. Kabeer, when one died, two were dead. When two died, four were dead. When four died, six were dead, four males and two females. Notice the tuks progress from 1 to 2 to 4 to 6. And 1 plus 5 is 6.

    Two of the evils are female and 4 are male. The self plus 5 evils but not the 5 evils we ordinarily think of. They are mentioned specifically in earlier saloks of Kabir.

    "(1) pride (e.g, Jaat-Paat, etc.), (2) Kusang or bad association, (3) Sareer-Moh or body-attachment (emotional attachments, body-consciousness, body-identity, defective vision etc.), (4) Kaam (lust, Triashnaa, desires, mind's wanderings due to all evil passions etc.), and (5) Nindaa or slander ("Bhaar Paraaee Sir Charrai", consciousness of good-bad etc.)."

    Kaam and Nindaa are female gender ; the others are male gender... one dies after the other once the ego or false self dies http://www.gurbani.org/articles/webart221.htm


    The use of mathematical progressions was popular in the poetry of Kabir's time. The mystery of it made him a favorite of many people; we still enjoy it today in literature. Kabir also used the "acrostic" starting a tuk with a letter of the alphabet and building from one letter to another. Guru Nanak also used the ancrostic. Interesting is that this was also popular in European poetry of the era.
     
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  16. Ambarsaria

    Ambarsaria Canada
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    BlazinSikh ji thanks for your post.
    BlazinSikh ji let us remember one thing as follows,
    Sikhism and Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji teach us to look for and associate with the good in people and in general to seek Sadh Sangat (a hint on how to achieve it in an easier way).

    Sikhism does not teach us to shun people but seek the good in them and associate with that. Goodness will breed more goodness to impact the bad in all interacting.

    Company is a multi-faceted word. Perhaps deeper meaning behind it should be to forget the persona and focus on deeds and actions and always seeking the good as it thus shows up.

    Just some thoughts to share.

    Sat Sri Akal.

    PS: Harry veer has also provided a remarkable answer in the following to your query,

    http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/shabad-of-the-week/40676-shabad-week-man-pankhi-bha-i.html#post183585

    spnadmin ji thanks for a wonderful explanation of the 2 feminine and 4 masculine attributes alluded to in the shabad. From Prof. Sahib Singh ji's Darpan these are,

    <!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <w:punctuationKerning/> <w:ValidateAgainstSchemas/> <w:SaveIfXMLInvalid>false</w:SaveIfXMLInvalid> <w:IgnoreMixedContent>false</w:IgnoreMixedContent> <w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>false</w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText> <w:Compatibility> <w:BreakWrappedTables/> <w:SnapToGridInCell/> <w:WrapTextWithPunct/> <w:UseAsianBreakRules/> <w:DontGrowAutofit/> <w:UseFELayout/> </w:Compatibility> <w:DoNotOptimizeForBrowser/> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]-->

    • ਦੋ ਮਰ ਗਏ- (1) ਮਨ ਅਤੇ [​IMG] (2) ਜਾਤਿ-ਅਭਿਮਾਨ[​IMG]

    • ਦੋ ਹੋਰ ਮਰੇ-(3) ਦੇਹ-ਅੱਧਿਆਸ [​IMG](4) ਤ੍ਰਿਸ਼ਨਾ:interestedkudi:

    • (5) ਕੁਸੰਗ ਅਤੇ [​IMG](6) ਨਿੰਦਾ[​IMG]

    In the above I believe two of (4) ਤ੍ਰਿਸ਼ਨਾ and (6) ਨਿੰਦਾ will be feminine [​IMG], and the remainder 4 would be masculine[​IMG].
    <!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:LatentStyles DefLockedState="false" LatentStyleCount="156"> </w:LatentStyles> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 10]> <style> /* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; mso-para-margin:0in; mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language:#0400; mso-fareast-language:#0400; mso-bidi-language:#0400;} </style> <![endif]-->
     
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  17. spnadmin

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    Well, Thank you! But, there is a problem Ambarsaria ji! :sippingcoffee:

    Someone is going to say that Kaam and Ninda are not feminine gender grammatically. Which they are not. So there is another puzzle behind the puzzle.

    :whatzpointkudi:

    Also, I love the way you showed the progression below, including the smiley-cons.
     
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  18. Luckysingh

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    Thanks for that !

    I was trying to get at it but couldn't quite lay it out.
    I can't remember what the banis that are acrostic are called.
    I believe there are 2 of them, but would be much obliged if you reminde me the names of these.
     
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  19. spnadmin

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    You give me too much credit! I can see them in my mind's eye but not be able to rattle them off quickly. Let me do a search and come back and edit this.

    Back! For Kabir

    The prayer begins "I know only the one. The acrostic starts with saloka 8 on Ang 340, and ends with saloka 44. Then Kabir ji says: The 52 letters have been joined together (by the salokas) "But people cannot remember the One true God, on Ang 342

    That is the only one I can remember. A long one.
     
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  20. spnadmin

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    Luckysingh ji

    I think for Guru Nanak here are the 2:

    The Patti is Ang 432 through 434

    ਰਾਗੁ ਆਸਾ ਮਹਲਾ ੧ ਪਟੀ ਲਿਖੀ
    Rāg āsā mėhlā 1 patī likẖī
    Raag Aasaa, First Mehl, Patee Likhee ~ The Poem Of The Alphabet:

    Guru Nanak Ang 930 to 938 which begins

    ਸਸੈ ਸਭੁ ਜਗੁ ਸਹਜਿ ਉਪਾਇਆ ਤੀਨਿ ਭਵਨ ਇਕ ਜੋਤੀ ॥
    Sasai sabẖ jag sahj upā▫i▫ā ṯīn bẖavan ik joṯī.
    Sassa: He created the entire universe with ease; His One Light pervades the three


    For Guru Arjan Dev there is one Ang 251 to 260, and begins:

    ਧਧਾ ਧੂਰਿ ਪੁਨੀਤ ਤੇਰੇ ਜਨੂਆ ॥
    Ḏẖaḏẖā ḏẖūr punīṯ ṯere janū▫ā.
    DHADHA: The dust of the feet of the Saints is sacred.


    Guru Amardas on Ang 434 to 435:

    ਛਛੈ ਛੀਜਹਿ ਅਹਿਨਿਸਿ ਮੂੜੇ ਕਿਉ ਛੂਟਹਿ ਜਮਿ ਪਾਕੜਿਆ ॥੨॥
    Cẖẖacẖẖai cẖẖījėh ahinis mūṛe ki▫o cẖẖūtėh jam pākṛi▫ā. ||2||
    Chhachha: You are wearing away, every night and day; you fool, how will you find reliease? You held in the grip of death.

    I had to run this down on the net. The source that had all of them in one place is http://www.sikhs.org/gr_table.htm

    Note the index gives the page where the raag begins. I have noted the page where the acrostic begins to avoid confusion.
     
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  21. Ambarsaria

    Ambarsaria Canada
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    Learning and not to win but perhaps the following shabad would clarify at least one iten
    Here it goes,
    I do believe also that ਤ੍ਰਿਸ਼ਨਾ/Trishna[​IMG]is not Kaam/lust. ਤ੍ਰਿਸ਼ਨਾ/Trishna is craving.

    So using Prof. Sahib Singh ji's elaboration I do believe the gender assignment is correct.

    Of course I always stand corrected and thanks for your comments.

    Sat Sri Akal.
     
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