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General "Salvation" Through Faith or Works?

Discussion in 'Hard Talk' started by Ishna, Jul 16, 2015.

  1. Ishna

    Ishna
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    Sat Sri Akaal Sangat Ji

    Christians have a long standing argument about how they can be "saved". Catholics believe that good works are required for their ticket into Heaven, whereas Protestants believe that you can get in through faith in Christ alone. [for more information as it pertains to Christianity, see Justification]

    Although Sikhi does not have a concept of "salvation", it certainly does have a goal in mind; to merge with Ik Onkar (whatever that may mean to you personally).

    I read this on the Sikh philosophy page of Wikipedia:

    "Actions count: Salvation is obtained by one’s actions– good deeds, remembrance of God – Naam Simran, Kirtan."​

    So, from the Sikh perspective, is "faith" alone good enough, or are "good works" essential, or both? Or something else.

    Open for discussion. :)

    Gurfateh
     
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  3. Harry Haller

    Harry Haller United Kingdom
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    I personally have no goal, I cannot share in the 'I'm doing this for xxx', I do whatever it is I do because its what I do, if anything like a goal, I suppose it would be that more facets of truth become natural, become me

    I have no wish for salvation, that is not the nature of my relationship with Creator.
     
  4. ActsOfGod

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    From what I've been able to gather, good works and charity are worthwhile, but their benefit is minuscule when compared to the contemplation of the Naam. Perhaps their value might be as a stepping stone, for Gurbani also tells us that without virtue, there cannot be bhagti/devotional worship.

    From japji Sahib:

    ਤੀਰਥੁ ਤਪੁ ਦਇਆ ਦਤੁ ਦਾਨੁ ॥
    Pilgrimages, austere discipline, compassion and charity -

    ਜੇ ਕੋ ਪਾਵੈ ਤਿਲ ਕਾ ਮਾਨੁ ॥
    these, by themselves, bring only an iota of merit.

    ਸੁਣਿਆ ਮੰਨਿਆ ਮਨਿ ਕੀਤਾ ਭਾਉ ॥
    Listening and believing with love and humility in your mind,

    ਅੰਤਰਗਤਿ ਤੀਰਥਿ ਮਲਿ ਨਾਉ ॥
    cleanse yourself with the Name, at the sacred shrine deep within.

    ਸਭਿ ਗੁਣ ਤੇਰੇ ਮੈ ਨਾਹੀ ਕੋਇ ॥
    All virtues are Yours, Lord, I have none at all.

    ਵਿਣੁ ਗੁਣ ਕੀਤੇ ਭਗਤਿ ਨ ਹੋਇ ॥
    Without virtue, there is no devotional worship.

    ਸੁਅਸਤਿ ਆਥਿ ਬਾਣੀ ਬਰਮਾਉ ॥
    I bow to the Lord of the World, to His Word, to Brahma the Creator.

    ਸਤਿ ਸੁਹਾਣੁ ਸਦਾ ਮਨਿ ਚਾਉ ॥
    He is Beautiful, True and Eternally Joyful.

    ਕਵਣੁ ਸੁ ਵੇਲਾ ਵਖਤੁ ਕਵਣੁ ਕਵਣ ਥਿਤਿ ਕਵਣੁ ਵਾਰੁ ॥
    What was that time, and what was that moment? What was that day, and what was that date?

    ਕਵਣਿ ਸਿ ਰੁਤੀ ਮਾਹੁ ਕਵਣੁ ਜਿਤੁ ਹੋਆ ਆਕਾਰੁ ॥
    What was that season, and what was that month, when the Universe was created?

    ਵੇਲ ਨ ਪਾਈਆ ਪੰਡਤੀ ਜਿ ਹੋਵੈ ਲੇਖੁ ਪੁਰਾਣੁ ॥
    The Pandits, the religious scholars, cannot find that time, even if it is written in the Puraanas.

    ਵਖਤੁ ਨ ਪਾਇਓ ਕਾਦੀਆ ਜਿ ਲਿਖਨਿ ਲੇਖੁ ਕੁਰਾਣੁ ॥
    That time is not known to the Qazis, who study the Koran.

    ਥਿਤਿ ਵਾਰੁ ਨਾ ਜੋਗੀ ਜਾਣੈ ਰੁਤਿ ਮਾਹੁ ਨਾ ਕੋਈ ॥
    The day and the date are not known to the Yogis, nor is the month or the season.

    ਜਾ ਕਰਤਾ ਸਿਰਠੀ ਕਉ ਸਾਜੇ ਆਪੇ ਜਾਣੈ ਸੋਈ ॥
    The Creator who created this creation-only He Himself knows.

    ਕਿਵ ਕਰਿ ਆਖਾ ਕਿਵ ਸਾਲਾਹੀ ਕਿਉ ਵਰਨੀ ਕਿਵ ਜਾਣਾ ॥
    How can we speak of Him? How can we praise Him? How can we describe Him? How can we know Him?

    ਨਾਨਕ ਆਖਣਿ ਸਭੁ ਕੋ ਆਖੈ ਇਕ ਦੂ ਇਕੁ ਸਿਆਣਾ ॥
    O Nanak, everyone speaks of Him, each one wiser than the rest.

    ਵਡਾ ਸਾਹਿਬੁ ਵਡੀ ਨਾਈ ਕੀਤਾ ਜਾ ਕਾ ਹੋਵੈ ॥
    Great is the Master, Great is His Name. Whatever happens is according to His Will.

    ਨਾਨਕ ਜੇ ਕੋ ਆਪੌ ਜਾਣੈ ਅਗੈ ਗਇਆ ਨ ਸੋਹੈ ॥੨੧॥
    O Nanak, one who claims to know everything shall not be decorated in the world hereafter. ||21||
     
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  5. Original

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    The only certain thing in life is that it will one day end. That knowledge is perhaps the defining feature of the human condition.

    Like all living things, humans struggle to survive and unlike all other creatures, as far as we know, this is a struggle we are bound to lose. Not if you're a Sikh [ideological perspective as a system of belief] says Nanak.

    Sikhism, arguably epitomise humankind's attempt to assuage the fear of finitude by offering existential solace - consciousness survives death.

    "....on the other side of the river is a field where there is no right n wrong, no good n bad, no you n me, I'll meet you there" = Sikh.

    Goodnight
     
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  6. Harry Haller

    Harry Haller United Kingdom
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    its not minuscule to those on the receiving end, and to those unfortunates, the helpers spiritual and personal advancement is probably not that important.
     
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  7. Ecumenigal

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    As a student of multiple religions, this is my understanding:

    Catholics believe that a mix of good works and Grace are necessary for salvation, and good works are seen as a kind of "earning points" for a "heavenly reward."

    Protestantism comes in varieties that cover the whole range from Catholicism to Born-Again christians.

    Born-Again Christians, (a.k.a Evangelical, Charismatic, or Spirit-Lead Churches) are adamant that the Grace from Christ's atonement allows salvation as a "free gift" that you could not ever deserve. It is sinful to image that you have merited salvation. Good works are encouraged, but thought of as a response of gratefulness to God's Grace.

    Mormons (an American Christian religion started by a prophet in the 1830's), like Catholics, believe in a mix of Grace and works. Their scripture says, "We are saved by Grace after all that we can do." Mormons have levels of heaven, so there is a difference between "salvation" and "exaltation". Virtually everyone will be "saved". (The only "hell" is "outer darkness".) "Exaltation" is "earned" but not as a reward for good works. Good works cultivate spiritual maturity. Exaltation (becoming like God) is a state of being that is attained through good works and the help of Grace.
     
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  8. Original

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    Ecumenigal

    Your understanding is good and beautiful. Humankind's religious experience is good and beautiful, shapes humans in many ways, what is the point your trying to make ?
     

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