Sabẖhū ko ras har ho / ਸਭਹੂ ਕੋ ਰਸੁ ਹਰਿ ਹੋ

Discussion in 'Gurmat Vichaar' started by Ambarsaria, Dec 19, 2011.


  1. Ambarsaria

    Ambarsaria ੴ / Ik▫oaʼnkār
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    My understanding outside quotes in blue. I stand corrected for any errors which are mine.

    Raag Gaureeh, Guru Arjan Dev ji
    Ultimate happiness for all is in one creator understood
    Some do yoga, Some so enjoy consuming, Some research, Some contemplate so quiet
    Some hold stick and do yoga
    Some do repeated renditions, Some do ritualistic fires, Some worship deities, daily Havan rituals of fire
    Some wander around singing
    Some on the banks of a river, Some do holy baths, Some study the Vedas scriptures
    Guru Nanak loved is that contemplates

    This sabad cuts across many hotly contested and debated items like parroting, simran as chanting, yogic samadhis, fire rituals like havans, holy baths and many religious practices in India.

    Wonderful clarity. All comments welcome.

    Sat Sri Akal.
     
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  2. BhagatSingh

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    Ambarsaria ji,
    Bhagati is
    Bhagati is cultivating love and devotion to a personal God and as the last line says "O Guru Nanak, God loves such love and devotion (worship is love and devotion)." The shabad advocates for Bhagati and if you do your research you'll find chanting, meditation, worship etc often arise out of Bhagati and are even prescribed by Guru Nanak time and time again, as a way to connect to God and to subdue the inner ego.
     
    #2 BhagatSingh, Dec 19, 2011
    Last edited: Dec 19, 2011
  3. Ambarsaria

    Ambarsaria ੴ / Ik▫oaʼnkār
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    Bhagat Singh ji thanks for your comments.

    There is no question about ਭਗਤ, ਭਗਤਿ (Bhagat, of Bhagati) are widely used in Indian religions and culture. In this sabad such is clarified that all examples given are not what is meant. Many do and understand the examples as extrapolation of Sikhism from common usage outside of Sikhism. That is against the message of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

    I do not believe it is a complicated sabad to understand. It is stated in your face style what is meant.
    Practices noted NOT, unencumbered contemplation and understanding YES.
    Feel free to quote a complete sabad with what your are basing your comments on and we can all review.

    Sat Sri Akal.
     
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  4. BhagatSingh

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    Ambarsaria ji,
    Bhagati is a way of union with God through love and devotion. Now to cultivate love and evotion specific practices (upasana) are used: listening, singing, repeating, chanting, servicing, surrendering, etc. Bhagati in itself does not mean intuitive understanding. The intuitive understanding comes from doing Bhagati.

    As for other shabads, I have already posted numerous such shabads during our previous interactions on mysticism and other threads. Please review them.
    Here are some of them for your convenience:
    http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/gurma...-god-sri-guru-granth-sahib-13.html#post157468
    http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/quest...th-and-sitting-darbar-sahib-4.html#post156855
    http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-...s-sikhism-embrace-mysticism-4.html#post157081
     
  5. Ambarsaria

    Ambarsaria ੴ / Ik▫oaʼnkār
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    Veer Bhagat Singh ji thanks.

    I will review if we need further dialog to extend and share understanding. Very fascinating fine lines with potential great divide and clarification.

    Sat Sri Akal.
     
  6. Tejwant Singh

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    Bhagat Singh ji,

    Guru Fateh.

    You write:

    By Union, I gather you mean the connection. Correct me if you have a different take on it. Or does it mean something totally different as one can never be disunited from the omnipresence of Ik Ong Kaar?

    Why would one surrender to THE ONE who is in all of us and everywhere or by surrender,do you really mean is to get rid of me-ism?

    I agree with the Listening,Singing, Reading, Understanding and Practicing the Guru Shabad to make our lives better and share that goodness with others. If by repeating/chanting you mean to engrave the message of Gurbani - as we do in our Nitnem- and breed goodness in our hearts and souls, then I agree with that too. But if you mean just parroting a couple of words from the 1429 pages of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, our only Guru then it is nothing more but one more mechanical ritual which Guru Nanak was against and so are the 1429 pages of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, our only Guru. There are no specific practices for a Sikh as you have mentioned in your post. However Hindus used them for some reasons, but Guru Nanak was against those as explained below.

    The true Bhagati is understanding and practicing Gurbani in order to make this world better. Bhagati is not the one legged stance for hours and nor is it hanging like a monkey for hours as Guru Nanak mentions in Sidh Ghosht.

    These are things these Hindus called as true Bhagatis and named themselves as Bhagats. What a true Bhagat is explained very well by Guru Nanak in Pauri 21. Guru Nanak clearly uses the word for Bhagat, "HONAH" which requires continues actions of sharing goodness. Guru Nanak on purpose did not use the word "BANANAH"- to have become because according to Sikhi it is neither a title nor a destination but to the contrary, unlike in Hindu theology.

    You seem to be confused between the Hindu concept of Bhagati and the Sikhi one. You should learn to differentiate the two because there is a difference and it is in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, our only Guru.

    Please read the following described by Ambarsaria ji from Jap Pauri 21. Now, if you have a different interpretation about it, please share with us so we can all learn from it.

    http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/jap-ji...tml#post158152

    We will talk about your Shabads later on, once we have clarified the above.

    I fail to understand one thing from you, that whenever you are challenged about what you write, you are kind enough to agree about the challenge and promise to respond which you have failed to do so far.

    Is this the true Bhagati are you talking about?:)

    Regards

    Tejwant Singh
     
    #6 Tejwant Singh, Dec 20, 2011
    Last edited: Dec 20, 2011
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  7. BhagatSingh

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    Haha Tejwant Singh ji, One is never disconnected from God either. Thus united and connected mean the same.
    I will clarify that connected to me seems like a temporary thing where you cultivate a connection and then it breaks and you do so again. Whereas being united is a permanent thing. Where you intuitively see the Omnipresence of God always.

    One need not actually be disunited/disconnected in order to feel disunited/disconnected. In other words, there maybe a diamond in one's pocket but until it is brought into awareness, one does not even know about it, and goes on living as if there was no diamond there.

    Surrender and ridding oneself of Me-ism also means the same. What are you surrendering if not the "me"?

    Yes. It does both.

    Which challenge was this?
     
  8. Tejwant Singh

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    Bhagat Singh ji

    Guru Fateh.

    you write:

    If you have a diamond in your pocket then you should/must be aware of it. Now, if you have Zirconia in your pocket and you convince yourself that it is real diamond, then it is a different story all together.:)

    Well, then surrender is wrongly used as a term in the English translation of the Gurbani. Actually, we are looking for tools to get rid of Me-ism from SGGS, our only Guru. There is no war between my Guru and myself, to the contrary. It is camaraderie, a very close friendship. One does not need to surrender to one's best friend but seeks his/her help

    My Quote:
    Your response:

    By both you do not mean parroting one or 2 words from the 1429 pages of SGGS, our only Guru, I suppose but understanding Gurbani and putting it into practice.

    But my main point of the post was your definition of Bhagat and Bhagati that you used in Sikhi which I challenged you about and you ignored to respond to that.

    My post:
    Your response:

    Just re-read our last interaction which took place several days ago in which I challenged you that you do not respond to what I ask you in my posts. After claiming you did. But after some self reflection,it was nice of you to admit that you do not and assured me that you would in the future.

    Still waiting.:)

    Regards

    Tejwant Singh
     
    #8 Tejwant Singh, Dec 20, 2011
    Last edited: Dec 20, 2011
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  9. BhagatSingh

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    Tejwant Singh ji,
    I actually did respond later (as I said I would) but on a different thread. Though I felt you did not understand that response (either). Anyway I am satisfied by your words in this thread that chanting and repeating "breed goodness in our hearts and souls".

    I also agree with your definition of Bhagat and Bhagati hence I don't find it a challenge.

    Edit: One relationship to God can be that of a friend (soulbride with husband lord) or it can be that of a Master-disciple where the disciple surrenders himself and his narrow understanding of reality in exchange for the understanding of the Master. Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji in different parts appeals to many such relationships including the mother/father- child relationship as well. These are emotions one cultivates in order to obtain connection and union, in the Bhagati method.
     
    #9 BhagatSingh, Dec 20, 2011
    Last edited: Dec 20, 2011
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  10. Tejwant Singh

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    Bhagat Singh ji,

    Guru Fateh.

    You write:

    This makes no sense. If you had responded to it, then I would have read it. And now you are saying that you are sure that I have read it but did not understand it either. You being the judge and the jury here. Please give me the url and give me the right to decide whether I understand it or not. If I understand it differently or not, you will hear from me, but please do not judge others. Learn to ask questions if I have understood something you wrote which I specifically asked for.

    I am glad you have changed your mind about parroting one or two words and call it a meditation which does not exist in Sikhi,.

    Well, your definition of Bhagati was from the Hindu theology not from the Sikh point of view. I am happy to know that you have grasped the Sikhi idea of Bhagati now.

    Please quote Gurbani from SGGS, which says for one to surrender. Please do not use the word from the literal translation but express it in your words about the word from the Shabad.

    Thanks & regards

    Tejwant Singh
     
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  11. Ambarsaria

    Ambarsaria ੴ / Ik▫oaʼnkār
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    Veer Tejwant Singh ji what is the sustaining remedy for this situation. Young and old alike are too tempted to take what comes easy. "Surrender" is mentioned 96 times at Srigranth.org. I checked couple of the citations and were very out of context. This is such a temptation though! Look at other traps on appearance of common others,

    Meditate 1613
    Surrender 96
    Name 4970
    Chant 1589

    Very disturbing but I don't see a practical easy solution :)situps::8-:) ).

    Sat Sri Akal.
     
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  12. Tejwant Singh

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    Ambarsaria ji,

    Guru Fateh.

    I totally agree with you that many words like surrender etc etc are used in the English literal translation even though the word in Gurmukhi is not what it says.

    I will give you one more example and I explained it to the Sangat. The word Enraptured is used 74 times according to srigranth.org. The day I was explaining the Hukumnaama in the Gurdwara, this word flashed on the screen and we had visiting Councilmen/women from Las Vegas and Henderson the same day.

    The meaning of the word in English is as follows:
    Adj.1.enraptured - deeply moved; "sat completely still, enraptured by the music"; "listened with rapt admiration"; "rapt in reverie"Synonyms: rapt, captive

    2.enraptured - feeling great rapture or delightSynonyms: ecstatic, rapturous, rhapsodic
    http://www.webster-dictionary.org/definition/enraptured

    However, its origins are quite dreadful. It comes from the word Rapture which means Jesus' return and the judgement day for those who do not become Christians. In other words the Jews and others who do not convert to Christianity will be thrown in the bubbling cauldron and will die.

    So this is what people will feel. They will be all enraptured when Jesus returns and all the non- believers are either converted or killed.

    I explained to the Sangat the meaning of Rapture and after it was all over, the guests came to me and said they were surprised to see that on the screen because they knew the origin of the word.

    On the other hand, the Gurdwara committee President told me not to mention if the translation is incorrect. In other words, let the devotees leave the Gurdwara, the way they came, with their heads in the sand.

    The only solution is from great sevadaars like you. You are doing an excellent job in Sukhmani and now you have said that you have finished the Saloks of Sheikh Farid. In fact we do have another thread on it started by Astroboy ji in which lots of us pitched in. You should check that too if you have not already.

    So, Sevadaars like you and others including myself should start using different words which have the right intentions of what our Gurus want us to learn.

    This problem started when we let the Christian missionaries translate SGGS with the Biblical slant and sad to say, their followers followed in the same manner and still do.

    Hence, this forum should be the trailblazer to bring the true meaning from Gurmukhi to English and you are its flag bearer.

    Thanks for all your help. You have no idea how much I appreciate it.

    Regards

    Tejwant Singh
     

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