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Sabh Sikhan Ko Hukam Hai Guru Maneyo Granth

Discussion in 'Sikh Sikhi Sikhism' started by Kully, Sep 7, 2016.

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  1. Kully

    Kully United Kingdom
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    I posed this question a short whilke ago in another discussion, but unfortunately as that discussion has been closed I would like to start a new discussion based solely on this line.

    This line is attributed to Guru Gobind Singh pertaining to Guru Sahib saying accept the granth (Pothi Sahib) as your Guru.

    Where has Guru Sahib written this?
     
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  3. Harkiran Kaur

    Harkiran Kaur Canada
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    The event on 20 October 1708 at Nanded (in present-day Maharashtra), when Guru Gobind Singh installed Adi Granth as the Guru of Sikhism, was recorded in a Bhatt Vahi (a bard's scroll) by an eyewitness, Narbud Singh, and is now celebrated as Guru Gaddi (Guru Gaddi Divas), and statement is part of the central chant,Sabh Sikhan ko Hukam Hai, Guru Maneyo Granth.

    Before he died, Guru Gobind Singh, the tenth Guru, conferred the Guruship to the [Adi Granth]. He then delivered a self-composed hymn:

    • Agya bhai Akal ki tabhi chalayo Panth. Sabh Sikhan ko hukam hai Guru manyo Granth. Guru Granth Ji manyo pargat Guran ki deh.
    Jo Prabhu ko milbo chahe khoj shabad mein le. Raj karega Khalsa aqi rahei na koe ,Khwar hoe sabh milange bache sharan jo hoe."
    • Translation:
    Under orders of the Immortal Being, the Panth was created. All Sikhs are enjoined to accept the Granth as their Guru.

    Consider the Guru Granth as an embodiment of the Gurus.Those who want to meet God, can find Him in its hymns. The pure Khalsa shall rule, and the impures will be left no more, Those separated will unite and all the devotees of the Guru shall be saved."

    He also offered his obeisance to the sacred Granth thus conveying his Light to it.
    This historic development took place in Oct. 1708 which ensured that the order of the Khalsa brotherhood always remained an abiding force for Sikh Panth unity.

    The first part of the Dohra is Guru Gobind Singh Ji's Pavitar Bachan (Holy Saying) recorded in BHAI PRAHLAAD SINGH's Rehitnama. This was written at the time when Guru Ji said this bachan by Bhatt Vehi who was one of Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji's poets at Hazoor Sahib. Giani Gian Singh later found it and copied it into his literature's "Twarikh Guru Khalsa" and "Panth Parkash":

    • Agya Bhai Akal Ki Tabe Chalyo Panth
    • As was ordained by the Timeless, thus was established the Panth.
    • Sabh Sikhan Ko Hukam Hai Guru Manyo Granth
    • To all Sikhs, let this be the order, recognize the Granth as your Guru.
    • Guru Granth Ji Manyo Prakat Guran Ki Deh
    • The reverend Guru Granth is the visible body of the gurus
    • Jo Prabh Ko Milbo Chahe Khoj Sabad Mein Leh
    • Those that seek to meet with Vaaheguru, delve into the Shabad
    its inclusion is based on the rahitnama of Bhai Nand Lal, an eye witness to the sermon in which Guru Gobind Singh affirmed

    Dusara rup Granth ji jan Un ke ang mero kar man Jo sikh gur darshan ki chah Darshan karo granth ji ah. Jo mam sath chaho kar bat Granth ji parhe bichare sath. jo muj bachan sunan ki chai Granth ji parhe sune chit lae mero rup Granth ji jan Is men bhed nahin kuchh man

    The Granth is second myself It should be taken for me. A Sikh who wants to see me, should have a look at the Granth. One who wishes to talk to me, should read the Granth and think over it. One who is anxious to listen to my talk, he should read the Granth and listen to its recitation with attention. Consider the Granth as my own self. Have not the least doubt about it.

    This account is supposed to be recorded in notes of the court poet Sainapat, Bhai Nand Lal and Dhadi Nath Mal.

    (From numerous sources)
     
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  4. Kully

    Kully United Kingdom
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    Harkiran Ji, the question was

    "Where has Guru Sahib written this?"
     
  5. Harkiran Kaur

    Harkiran Kaur Canada
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    Try reading the 52 Hukams of Guru Gobind Singh Ji and you will find your answer.

    Here I will help you....

    Hukamnama Guru Gobind Singh Ji

    #10
     
    #4 Harkiran Kaur, Sep 8, 2016
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2016
  6. Kully

    Kully United Kingdom
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    Did Guru Sahib write these 52 hukams and hand them over to a SIkh for propogation?

    It seems more like someone has made a writing of the things Guru Sahib MAY have said but I want written proof that Guru Gobind Singh, wrote this and it is not just ascribed to him please.


    Thanks for the heads up. it certainly does say accept the granth as Guru. Now then question is who wrote the text?
     
  7. Harkiran Kaur

    Harkiran Kaur Canada
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    --- So let me get this straight, you are willing to believe that Guru Ji wrote DG himself, in his own writing, based merely on one vague source from a century later. So much so, that you place doubt on and openly challenged SGGSJ being our only Guru on this site (which many would consider tantamount to beadbi) ---- But you won't believe the hukamnamas that were actually dictated by Guru Ji, in his own time while he was still alive in Nanded, sealed with his personal seal, recorded in numerous sources from the time, and copies were sent to multiple places (including Hazoor Sahib), and where the lineage is easily traceable all the way back - and where original copies can be seen today??

    "The 52 hukamnamas or edicts giving instruction on appropriate behavior were written by order of Guru Gobind Singh and copied down by Baba Raam Singh Koer whose great grandfather was Bhai Baba Buddha. Guru Gobind Singh affixed his personal seal to the document, a copy of which can be seen at historic Gurdwara Paonta Sahib built on the Yamuna river banks in the town of Paonta Sahib of Sirmaur in Himachal, Pradesh India about 44 kilometers from Dehradun." - What Are the 52 Hukams (Edicts) of Guru Gobind Singh?

    It was dictated by Guru Ji and written down by Baba Raam Singh Koer, as it was being dictated. Then Guru Ji affixed his personal seal to the document.

    .
     
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    #6 Harkiran Kaur, Sep 8, 2016
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2016
  8. Harkiran Kaur

    Harkiran Kaur Canada
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    ***** Also, did you notice something interesting??

    In Guru JI's 52 Hukams, though it DOES list the required banis japji Sahib, Rehras Sahib, and Kirtan Sohila, it does not mention at all the banis Jaap Sahib, Tav Prasad Swaiye, nor Benti Chaupai. Coincidence??

    This is why I stated what I did earlier about Rehet Maryada regarding the nitnem banis. I accept the panthic decision on what banis to include, so I follow sikh rehet maryada. However, having said that, going by Guru Gobind Singh Ji's 52 hukams (the original rehet maryada if you will) it does not look like these were originally part of our nitnem requirements at all. Though they are part of the only 50 or so pages of DG that are generally considered proven to be written by Guru Gobind Singh Ji, for whatever reason he himself chose to exclude these from his 52 hukamnamas.
     
    #7 Harkiran Kaur, Sep 8, 2016
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2016
  9. Harkiran Kaur

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    1) Dharam di Kirat karni – Earn by honest means.

    2) Daswand dena – Give one tenth of your salary.

    3) Gurbani kantth karni – Memorize Gurbani.

    4) Amrit Vaelae utthna – Wake up Amrit Vela (before dawn).

    5) Sikh sewak di sewa ruchi naal karni – Serve a Sikh Servant with devotion.

    6) Gurbani dae arth Sikh vidhvana tuo parrhnae- Learn the meanings of Gurbani from Sikh Scholars.

    7) Punj Kakaar di Rehat drirh kar rukhni – Follow the discipline of the 5 K’s strictly.

    8) Shabad da abhihas karna – Practice Shabad Gurbani in life.

    9) Sat-Saroop Satgur da dhian dharna – Concentrate on the True Guru (God).

    10) Guru Granth Sahib Ji noo Guru mananaa – Accept the Guru Granth Sahib as Guru.

    11) Kaarjaan dae arambh vich ardaas karni – At the beginning of a task, do ardaas.

    12) Jaman, maran, ja viah mokae Jup da paatth kar tihaaval (Karaah Parsaad) kar anand sahib dia punj paurian, ardaas, pratham punj pyaariaan atae hazoori granthi noo vartaa kae oprunth sangat noo vartaaouna – At birth, death, or marriage ceremonies, do Japji Sahib, make Karaah Parshaad, do five stanzas of anand sahib, do ardaas, and then distribute Karaah Parshaad to the Panj Pyare, the Granthi, and then to the sangat.

    13) Jad tak Karaah Parshaad Parshaad vartadaa rahae sadh sangat addol batthee rahae – Until Karaah Parshaad is completely distributed, the Sangat should remain sitting and unmoving.

    14) Anand Viah bina grahist nahi karna – Do not start married life without Anand Karaj (Sikh ceremony of marriage).

    15) Par-Istri, Ma-Bhain, Dhi-Bhain, kar jaanani. Par Istri da sang nahi karna – Recognize all other women other than your wife as mothers and sisters. (similarly, women recognize all other men other than your husband as fathers and brothers) Do not engage in marital behavior with them.

    16) Istri da mooh nahi fitkaarnaa – Do not silence your wife? (some translate it to mean do not subject your spouse to verbal abuse etc)

    17) Jagat-jootth tambaaku bikhiaa da tiaag karna – Abandon the worldly, false tobacco-poison.

    18) Rehatvaan atae naam jupan vaalae gursikhaa di sangat karni – Keep the company of Sikhs who follow the Rehat and meditate on the Name (of God).

    19) Kum karan vich daridar nahi karna – Dont’t be lazy while doing work.

    20) Gurbani di katha tae keertan roaz sunanaa atae karna – Listen and do kirtan and Gurbani discourses daily.

    21) Kisae di ninda, chugali, atae eirkha nahi karni – Do not engage in slander, gossip or spite anyone.

    22) Dhan, jawaani, tae kul-jaat da abhiman nahi karnaa (Nanak daadak tahe duae goath. Saak guru sikhan sang hoath) – Do not take pride in wealth, youth and caste. (Mother and Father’s caste both castes. All Sikhs of the Guru are siblings)?

    23) Mat uchi tae suchi rakhni – Keep the religious discipline high and pure.

    24) Shubh karman tao kadae naa ttarnaa – Do not refrain from doing Righteous deeds.

    25) Budh bal da daataa vaheguroo noo jaananaa – Recognize God as the giver of intellect and strength.

    26) Sugandh (kasam sahu) dae kar itbaar janaaoun vaalae tae yakeen nahi karna – Do not believe a person who breaks promises?

    27) Sutantar Vicharna. Raaj Kaaj dian kamaan tae doosrae mutaa dia purshaan noo huk nahi daenaa – Rule Independently? In the affaris of government, do not give people of other religions authority/power. (It has been interpreted as meaning do not let those from other faiths or religions be in position of power in Sikhi, as its understood government is secular and therefore those from other faiths can be elected)

    28) Raajniti parhni – Study politics.

    29) Dushman naal saam, daam, bhaed, aadiak, upaa vartnae – Treat the opponent with respect (definitions of the individual words are unknown to me)?

    30) Shaster vidyaa atae ghorhae di savaari da abhiaas karna – Practice the knowledge of weaponry and horse riding.

    31) Doosrae mataa dae pustak, vidyaa parhni. Pur bhrosaa drirh Gurbani, Akal Purakh tae karnaa – Study the books and knowledge of other faiths. But keep trust in Gurbani and Akal Purukh.

    32) Gurupdaesaa noo dhaaran karna – Follow the teachings of the Guru.

    33) Raheraas da paath kar kharae ho kae ardaas karni – After Rehras Paatth, do Ardaas standing up.

    34) Saun valae sohila atae ‘paun guru pani pita…’ salok parhna – Recite Sohila and ‘paun guru pani pita…’ stanza before going to sleep.

    35) Dastaar bina nahi rehnaa – Wear a turban at all times.

    36) Singha da adha naam nahi bulauna – Do not call a Singh by half of their name (nickname).

    37) Sharaab nai saevani – Do not partake of alcoholic drinks.

    38) Sir munae noo kanaiaa nahi daeni. Uos ghar daevni jithae Akal Purukh di sikhi ha, jo karzaai naa hovae, bhalae subhaa da hovae, bibaeki atae gyanvaan hovae – Do not given a daughter’s hand to a clean shaven. Give her hand in a house where God’s Sikhi exists, where the household is not in debt, is of a good nature, is disciplined and knowledgable.

    39) Subh kaaraj Gurbani anusaar karnae – Do all work in accordance with Gurbani.

    40) Chugali kar kisae da kam nahi vigaarnaa – Do not ruin someone’s work by gossip.

    41) Kaurha bachan nahi kahinaa – Do not utter bitter statements.

    42) Darshan yaatraa gurdwaaraa di hi karni – Make pilgrimages to Gurudwaras only.

    43) Bachan karkae paalnaa – Fulfill all promises that are made.

    44) Pardaesi, lorvaan, dukhi, apung manukh di yataahshkat sewa karni – Do as much sewa as you can for foreigners, the needy and the troubled.

    45) Putari da dhan bikh jananaa – To recognize the daughter as property is as poison. (some interpret it as do not steal the daughter's property / wealth - but it doesn't really make sense in context of the time, however women were very much treated AS property of men in those days, and some Fathers would actually arrange their daughter's marriage not for her benefit, but for whatever benefit he could get out of the deal from the boy's family.)

    46) Dikhaawae da Sikh nahi bananaa – Do not become an outward show-off Sikh. (Don't just dress the part)

    47) Sikhi kesaa-suaasa sang nibhaaouni – Live as a Keshadhari Sikh. (Speaking against sehejdhari)

    48) Chori, yaari, tthugi, dhokaa, dagaa bahi karnaa – Do not engage in theft, gangs?, fraud, and falisity?

    49) Sikh da itbaar karna – Believe a Sikh.

    50) Jhutthi gavaahi nahi daeni – Do not give false testimony.

    51) Dhroh nahi karnaa – Do not cheat.

    52) Langar-Parshaad ik ras vartaaunaa – Distribute Langar and Karaah Parshaad with equality.
     
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    #8 Harkiran Kaur, Sep 8, 2016
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2016
  10. Kully

    Kully United Kingdom
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    I don't doubt it. Nor have I openly challenged SGGS being our only Guru.so please don't begin to tell lies.

    What I am challenging is your criteria for accepting one and refusing the other.

    So far you have listed sources from the internet, none of which you can verify in actual text,

    Where is this seal of Guru Gobind Singh? Did Guru Gobind Singh apply this same seal to SGGS?

    I want written proof. Not something that Guru Sahib dictated. If you can't accept that Guru Sahib dictated certain texts as has been proved by Mehma Parkash, why are you holding not applying the same the same criteria in this case?

    Which is what? Remember you claimed that there was a 1973 hukumnama. You haven't been able to produce that (if indeed it exists) and now you are saying there is a seal just because a website says so.


    Ok let's see the seal.


    So, in the first instance you produce Bhai Prehlad Singh rehitnama as evidence which lists Jaap as a nitnem bani. Now you produce another text which says that isn't the case. Which one should we believe? In at least one case you (again) have produced doubtful evidence.

    In the furst case you claimed that Bhatts have written this.

    I don't want to see anything from anybody else. I want to see proof from Guru Sahib's own hand that Guruship is given to the Granth.

    But as you have already admitted you do not follow it from heart.

    Now if you can answer the question I asked, without trying to confuse the issue by bringing up any non related sources.
     
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  11. Kully

    Kully United Kingdom
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    When did the Panth have vidhvans?
     
  12. Harkiran Kaur

    Harkiran Kaur Canada
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    Kully you very very obviously have an agenda.

    If you want to see one of the originals, then go see it. I told you where you can find it.

    Mehma Parkash does not prove anything. It was written too long after the fact, and is vague at that. Plus it lists no sources for its contents. Unlike the 52 Hukams which can be traced all the way back. If you want to see an original copy with the seal then go to India. Nobody is stopping you.

    And yes you have been blatantly trying to lower the status of SGGSJ publicly.

    But for the record, vast majority of even Taksalis and Nihangs etc. who hold DG in high esteem, also believe in the 52 Hukams. In fact, even Taksali maryada states directly, do not have any other as your Guru besides SGGSJ.

    Anyway I am done with you. Consider this my last post in response to you. I have no desire to continually argue with someone who only has an agenda, and condescending attitude toward SPN members and staff.
     
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  13. Kully

    Kully United Kingdom
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    Why is your point of view a point of view, and my point of view an agenda? Do I not have to right that you have to air my views and provide evidence where applicable?

    Do I not have the right to question or want to discuss your posts and vice versa?


    You told me where it may be. But that doesn't mean it will be there. You haven't seen it, you have just used the net to look it up.


    There's no verifiable evidence though is there? Like there is with the Mehma Parkash. So So why should we hold something that is not verifiable over something that is, regardless of when it was written.

    You tried to use a 1973 "hukumnama" as some kind of evidence, but have never been able to show the actual letter, but yet you feel it is closer to the truth than a text that predates it by 200 years and differs from it.

    Why is it that you want to rely on certain letters/texts and use dateing when it suits you but ignore it when others want to use the same standards t make a differing view?


    I can say exactly the same that you have blatantly tried to lower the status of DG publicly if I want to be childish but this is a forum, where adult try and discuss things without the hysteria.

    I can also say that you have tried to lower the status of Guru Gobind Singh by criticising Guru Ji's teachings.

    How do you know exactly what the vast majority of taksalis/nihangs beleive in? What survey have you done to ascertain this? I don't think you have done any but are trying to use them as ammunition. What difference will that make? I'm not a nihang/taksali and don't wish to be either.


    Well rather than argue why not bring some quality substantative posts to the discussion then?

    Why try to sensationalise my asking questions that you have already asked and trying to paint me out to "lower the status of SGGS"? You didn't have to write that did you? Because nowhere had I made any such inference that, that was my intention.


    See what I mean? My main discussions here have been with you. But why are you trying to drag SPN staff into it? To make me look like I'm being unreasonable? To make me out to be the bad guy? Is that what adults do on a discussion forum?
     
  14. Kully

    Kully United Kingdom
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    Maybe it would be an idea to see if what you copy and paste is actually accurate. I have just looked through Kavi Sainapats "Sri Gur Sobha" and there is no mention of this dohra being recited. (Chapter 18 )

    I can't find my copy of Dhadi Nath Mal's book immediately but having read it a few years ago, will have a look to see if he mentions it.
     
  15. Admin Singh

    Admin Singh
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    Dear all, please discuss the topics without getting personal.

    Final Warning: Challenging or doubting the authenticity and there by challenging the authority of Sri Guru Granth Saheb (SGGS), our ONLY Guru, just to prove a point is NOT allowed at SPN and CANNOT be used as an evidence to authenticate any other scripture.

    The only way to contest the authenticity of any other scripture is that it must completely pass the litmus test of Gurmat Values and Principles laid in Sri Guru Granth Saheb Ji, our only Guru.

    Any future attempts to cast a doubt on the authenticity of SGGS would not be tolerated on this forum. Please consider this as our first and final warning.

    Gurfateh Ji
     
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