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Respect For Guru Ji - Guru Granth Sahib

Discussion in 'Sikh Sikhi Sikhism' started by Gyani Jarnail Singh, Dec 16, 2004.

  1. Gyani Jarnail Singh

    Gyani Jarnail Singh Malaysia
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    WAHEGURU JI KA KHALSA WAHEGURU JI KI FATEH.

    Recently a campaign is in the news a lot.... this is the campaign called "respect for Guru Ji...

    may I be so bold as to direct their attention to the Ghor Beadbi ALMOST ALL SIKHS commit when ever a smagam/akhand paath/sehaj paath etc is held in a HOME or away from the Gurdwara.

    Most of the time, we Parkash GURU JI sroop on a manji that has four small posts stuck on its paveh..and two feet above these four posts are covered with a rumalla...

    The space is so confined chaur cannot be done properly.... when the chaur sewak stands up for ardass his hands are ABOVE the so called chandni...
    This small contraption goes under the name of "THRONE of sacha patshah Guur Ji ".... what a joke. It is usually stuck in any small space adn usually the granthi has to squeeze behind it in a really tight squeeze as well ( trust me I know as I have to deal with such nearly every week !!)

    What do the readers think ??

    jarnail Singh
     
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  3. S|kH

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    Re: Respect For Guru Ji - Guru Granth Ji

    What difference does it make if he stands up during ardaas and his hands are higher than the "chandni" ?

    And perhaps some people can't afford more than just a little table with four small legs.

    I remember when I was young, and we lived in a run-down apartment in New Jersey we had no table at all. We had a 15 inch tv on the floor and we would put the Guru Granth Sahib over it, and my mom used to read from it like that. My cousins could have donated a table over to us, they could have even donated a pure golden table to us, but would it make a difference?

    And if you say, but Akhand Paht or other gatherings weren't performed there, what difference does that make? We used to have cousins and still read from the SGGS like that.

    Is that beadbi?

    The campaign of "respect to Guruji" is to stop INTENTIONAL dishonor to Guruji. Such as taking the SGGS to locations and having people dance around it while holding beer. That is intentional and known.

    As far as someone standing up and the chaur sahib slightly over the "chandni" thats not intentional, I'm sure no one attempts to do that as to say their higher than Guruji.

    As far as the space, can't you kindly talk to the owner of the home to create more space? I'm pretty sure they wouldn't mind that much..
     
  4. Gyani Jarnail Singh

    Gyani Jarnail Singh Malaysia
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    Re: Respect For Guru Ji - Guru Granth Ji

    sikh ji,

    perhaps you are right ?? am i more paranoid than necessary ? reality check.

    jarnail singh
     
  5. drkhalsa

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    Re: Respect For Guru Ji - Guru Granth Ji

    Thinking on similar lines I agree with that as now as for me I consult SGGS on my computer and it is PDF form as one file so you cant perform all those things as we perform on the traditional saroop of guru ji but what matter is intention with which you approch guru ji and if it is right than every thing is fine
     
  6. Amarpal

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    Re: Respect For Guru Ji - Guru Granth Ji

    Dear Khalsa Ji,

    The real respect to Sri Guru Granth Sahib is when we incorporate its teachings in our life. That is why Guru Sahibs gave it to us.

    The way we keep it in Gurdwaras is for its proper up keep. I explain it why I say so.

    Traditionally, Sri Guru Granth Sahib was and even now being read sitting on flat surface e.g. floor. It is ease if this heavy Granth is at an elevated postion so that the reader can read it effectively, that is why Manji is needed.

    We keep pillow like item on either side, below the open Sri Guru Granth Sahib. This primarily reduces the stress on its binding thus prolongs its life. In fact I even do the same even when reading secular literature if the size of the book is large e.g. big dictionary or Atlas. That is why the pillows like things are needed.

    We cover Sri Guru Granth Sahib with rumalas. This is to provide some sort of protection from fine mud that is often there in the air even during wind of moderate intensity. Incidently these rumalas act as paper weights also. They protect the pages from being torn by the flowing wind. That is why rumalas are needed.

    This way we see that these features are have utility.

    Chandani and Chour, in my opinion are frils. They are not necessary. They make Sri Guru Granth Sahib resemble like a deity. There is no need of these unless the individual wants to its reverence to the Akaar of the Granth. I revere more the Nirakaar part of of Sri Guru Granth Sahib, which is Sikhi (teachings) that is enshirined in it.

    With love and respect for all.

    Amarpal Singh
     
  7. Tejwant Singh

    Tejwant Singh United States
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    Re: Respect For Guru Ji - Guru Granth Ji

    Amarpal ji,


    Thanks for showing how NOT to make, hence consider SGGS an idol which is only good for bowing and parrot reading but a gateway to SAT which can only be obtained by studying and thus using the tools bestowed upon us through GURBANI, thanks to our visionary teachers.

    Tejwant
     
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  8. The Punj Pyara

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    Re: Respect For Guru Ji - Guru Granth Ji

    I am really saddened regarding the issues that are taking place in the sikh society today.

    We are not going to last as a religion for very long if we carry on like this. We have started making rediciulous rules at adhoc times(alienating the youth). The true fact that the issue has arisen is due to the gurdwara's losing money to rogue granthi's.

    I am a very spiritual sikh but i do my own interpertations according to what my heart tells me is right. As guru nanak made his opinon on issues regarding giving water to the moon and praying east to mecca. i believe that the sikhs are wrong for preaching such unacceptable rules. What happened for the last 300 years!! why is it so important now?? Why make big and expensive temples when you can spend the money taking care of the community. Build a sports centre encourage children into sports.

    the gurdwara/granthi(in india and UK) seem like the new age catholic church where people are out for their own good. In India if they realise you are from the abroad they sideline the locals for you. Here in the UK all the rich people control the temples.

    My recent experiences about granthi's in Hmv looking at porn videos and stealing money from Akhand paths and perving at woman at gurdwara. Has alienated me more and more from going to the temple, i feel more righteous praying from home.

    If we dont watch out we will not have many sikhs left in the world. The next generation will not care as they will be disillusioned. The young kids are not stupid they know what goes on even though they dont seem to care too much.

    Why dont the gurdwara care about the sikh society, taking the kids off the street and helping the poor and suffering. Why waste the time and effort of the 40 sikhs who went on rampage in Slough. Whereas they can spend their time minding the schools where young girls are put on drugs and then put for prostitution. There is a bigger emphasis on why the 40 sikhs went on rampage in Slough and that is MONEY.

    That is the view of me and of all the young people i have talked to. I feel Sickened that someone special day got spoilt because of this false pretence.
     
  9. GushK

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    Re: Respect For Guru Ji - Guru Granth Ji

    I agree that the current state of affairs is definitly due to the gurdwara's lack of care and attention to thier own communities. The have marginalised their own sangat to build larger gurdwaras and so their own sangat had become lost and have no unserstanding of their own faith. But this doesn not give them an excuse to make a mockery of it for the sake of show.

    Dear Punj Pyara.

    I have been noting the work of this campaign for a bit and as far as I have seen/heard/understood. THEY are the ones sticking up for the community. The venue/organiser in question has had repeated requests not to take SGGS to inappropriate locations, and several peaceful protests have been conducted previously, and they were even congratulated by several of the function attendees for doing the right thing!

    The biased articles in the major papers go as as far as to fabricate things and you should not be so quick to believe everything you read. From what I understand, there was no violence or scuffle, no one was thrown to the floor and SGGS was handed over in a peaceful manner. The police were present during the whole thing.

    It must be noted that several attempts were made to compromise and perform the anand karaj at a local gurdwara at the Respect for SGGS's expense, but they refused.

    Additionally, most of the 40 people (young, old, men and women) came from many miles away and none had anything to gain in terms on money.

    What do you define as a special day? For the people in question the special day seems to be, read some lines from SGGS, run around and do the laavan so they can get the saroop out and party on! They have no idea what a deep and spiritual commitment an anand karaj is. For them it's just another ritual to finish as quickly as possible before the reception. Their respect to SGGS was such that they ended up performing the wedding from a gutka instead of maharaaj, rather than give up on any of their partying!

    If parties are so important, then there is a civil marriage court around the corner. What was the need of performing a "show" ceremony, since it seems to have no significance in their life? It was because of this that SGGS was taken from them.


    Sorry for the rant.

    Gursharan Singh
     
  10. The Punj Pyara

    The Punj Pyara
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    My argument to you is:

    Look at the workings of the inhouse of gurdwara before you can look at society and its portral of the SGGS. In a gurdwara we need to show consideration towards what is right and what is wrong. We know for a fact how much fighting goes on when the voting takes place at the gurdwara. All the dodgy granthi's and rude people that sit around the gurdwara gossiping about what is happening in the local community.

    Please, please dont tell me that these people are showing any respect for the SGGS. when i was little, people used to go to the gurdwara and it was such a wonderful community feel. People were so happy with each other, they dressed up nicely spent the whole Sunday morning doing seva and listening to path. I loved the feeling, now it is all commercialised.

    I respect all peoples wishes and i have been to the gurdwara when a wedding has taken hours to perform, where the couple have perfomed kirtan after the lavan. I have been to a wedding where the lavan have been finished within an hour. If the congreation spent the whole hour in deep mediation and respect of the SGGS i would rather perfer this than to sitting down for 5 hours when your mind is drifting off to other things.

    i want there to be a whole spectrum of sikhs. From religious Gur-sikhs(Amrit) to others that use the teachings of sikhism for their daily life. Please do not marginalise the people that are not highly religious.

    It is fair that a comprimise had tried to be reached, but it is not a widely known fact before the papers actually published the news. The vast amount of society will think we are worse than the muslims(whereas we are more tolerant to all a persons beliefs).

    I have a daughter and she attends CofE school because i believe a key principle of sikhism is respect and tolerance to all people. Please don't make it harder for the next generation of sikhs to accept Sikhism. If my daughter wanted to get married in the middle of the countyside with the blessing of the SGGS when she grows up, she should be able to. Dont make the failings of a small minority to reflect the hardline attititudes of Sikh people.

    If you ever saw me in real life you would never expect me to be writing in a forum. But the lack of information to the community and tolerance that the sikh religion is showing is highly upsetting.
     
  11. GushK

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    I'm sure the 40 sevadaars who performed this are not out to hound and marginalise the less religious portions of the community.
    As I understand from them, many attempts were made at contacting them and helping them understand, but no quarter was given.
    The taking of SGGS was the "final straw", because they made no attempt to understand or compromise.

    Respect and tolerance, as you say, are of utmost importance, gurbani stresses this time and time again.
    But what respect and tolerance can people have for other faiths if they don't even have any towards their own?

    They're not running around destroying peoples lives, and there are very few cases like this which come up.
    They are just just trying to show those that if you want to be a Sikh, at least try to act like one.
    Their target was not the really the wedding party but the corrupt organiser who continues to unshamedly "rent" SGGS out.

    Incidentally there is an Akal Takht Hukamnama explicitly stating that no weddings should take place outside of a Gurdwara.


    The media knew full well exactly what happened, but they were out for their pint of blood. I mean what better way to sell papers?
    Ever since the Behzti play, they just look for a chance to pounce on our community.
    The wording of every single article seemed to indicate a large mob rushing in, leaving destruction and havoc in thier wake.
    This clearly wasn't the case, but the truth wouldn't make a good headline, would it?

    What about all the good stuff that's been happening lately? I haven't seen a word in any papers about that.

    What about the large peaceful 1984 rally/march that happened in London?
    What about the constant campaigning by the Sikh Federation against the turban ban in France?
    What about the Sikh lobby day, which will probably be attended by many of the Respect for SGGS campaigners, to promote Sikh issues to government ministers?

    nobody hears about any of these...

    Though I do agree with you on many issues, the points which you have brought up ultimately point back to the sangat.
    Gurdwaras can only turn into runaway money grabbing machines if the sangat let it or don't care enough to stop it.
    At the end of a day, a granthi is not a priest, just another sevadaar, and it's the sangat's duty to take responsibility for their own gurdwara.
    Even a dodgy management committee can be got rid of, if the people care enough to do anything about it.
    And that's the crux of the matter, many people don't care about religion, and don't want to know. So the problem gets worse.
    It's easy to say something is wrong, but it takes a whole amount of courage to decide to do something about it.


    It's with the actions of these sevadaars, that we can stop the rot from inside and make Gurdwaras an integral part of our community again.
    It's only then, that we can provide a service to the whole spectrum of the Sikh community, that everyone can benefit from.

    I have to say, not all gurdwaras are bad, actually the best ones are those which have no management committee at all, everyone is a sevadaar. no more, no less.

    I live in the heart of Southall, but ever since I was little, we've always gone to a Gurdwara a few miles away.
    I asked my father one day, why he chose this gurdwara rather than all the other closer ones.

    His reply... "They have better principles and uphold the basic tenants of Sikhi."
     
  12. The Punj Pyara

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    Dear GushK

    I am happy with your reply and wish there were more people in the community like you. I really appreciate you taking the time to clarify a few issues.

    As this is now in the open, it would be nice to give people who have booked a venue a small discretion. The real victims arent the venue holders but the people that are putting their hard earnt savings towards their daughters weddings.People getting married in say the next few months may not be able to manage a replacement option.

    I remember the days when wedding ceremonies took place in community centres because there wasnt no instances of gurdwara's. Maybe a PR inititive needs to be undertaken by gurdwara's to educate people.The way normal folk think is, why wasn't it a big deal back in the 1970's+-?
     
  13. drkhalsa

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    Dear Punj Pyare ji

    You have raised very essential point out the disscusion that currently we rae facing change of gurdwara functioning and most important serenity and environment of gurdwara this has been lately complain of many people

    I also have given good time thinking about the issue but really no solution actually i think we are the one who visit gurudwara and so we are the one who makeup the environment of gurdwara if over the period of time it has changed then offcourse we are the one who have changed .

    May be we now take little interest in issus of the ruuning of gurdwaras

    May be we ourself have undergone change in the changing world to the extent that we want our religion to be tolerant towards our practices and we just want to progress at the pace of the prevailing world

    May be we made ourself so distant fronm our religion that we are now dependant on the priestly class ( Bhai jis) which i hink was never meant to be there in our religion

    May be we so afraid that our new generation would move away from sikhism as if there is hardly any thing in our religion that can attract mind and intellact of our new generation

    well ther is no one answer we can give but I really liked your thought whenyou said

    yes this the reality of the world every body is at different level of involvement in spirtual life and so there should wider spectrum and tolerant environment bu still the guiding pricipleshould be there and then offcourse then there will be some boundary lines some do amd some donts

    now about the given situation if as said that there was Guru Ji Sarrop was planned to be there and subsequently alcohol was to be served then I think it crossed the lined and the offending party should be peacefully informed about that ( as they may be even unaware of what they are doing... ... as this present condition of sikhi) and matter resolved
    And I also think that use of force and voilence in case is the thing that made you upset and I agree with you if it sio happened

    And about the tolerance I think it is already enough of tolerance that so called to be sikhs (who ven dont even follow single act of faith ) are allowed to do anand karaj in presense of GUruji saroop ( I just think in parallel way that was it possible when our guru ji was in the form human that some body proclaming himself to be sikh dared do anand karaj in guruji hazoori with out evenfollowing the basic tenets of sikhi )

    totally agree with you on this the possible way out is we need to be more sensible and diplomatic in handling such issues and secondaly we have stronger presense in international media

    Any singh ji forgive me if I have said any thing inappropiate you post was really thought provocingi just felt like sharing my thoughts

    Jatinder Singh
     
  14. gurpreet2501

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    Hi
    If u have any questions or doubts related to Gurbani then you can ask me bny mailing to my email address ....
    Personal email has been removed by admin


    I will try my best to solve your problem due to God's Grace. .Just send me a private message here at SPN. Edit by admin
    Waheguiru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh
     
  15. Randip Singh

    Randip Singh
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    I really don't understand this campaign "respect for Guruji".

    A bunch of lunatics raiding peoples weddings and houses to rescue copies of the Guru Granth Sahib ji? Sound pretty medieval to me.

    If you ask me its the people who are doing this "recuing" that need rescuing" :D
     
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  16. Gyani Jarnail Singh

    Gyani Jarnail Singh Malaysia
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    Randip ji..they need/want/require ?? the respect...and in their own way they are trying to get it...
    They forget..RESPECT is EARNED..not enforced.:D:D:D:D:D
     
  17. ekonam

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    i agree just want to add a gurbani line:

    mMdr imtI sMdVy pQr kIqy rwis jIau ]
    hau eynI tolI BulIAsu iqsu kMq n bYTI pwis jIau ]

    This is why ... we all run to the so called gurthwara when the gurbani's guruthwara is inside of you "dasum dhovar" instead of sitting down teaching our children what the true meanings are ...we all go to this building and go for social get together....that is what it is ... :up::up:
     
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