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Religious strife in Britain

Discussion in 'Interfaith Dialogues' started by dalsingh, Jul 19, 2008.

  1. dalsingh

    dalsingh
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  3. dalsingh

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  4. spnadmin

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    Dalsingh ji

    It is probably very unfair for someone in the US to comment on the documentary above. I am not there "on the street" experiencing the day-to-day events in context that have the habit of building tension over a period of time -- that never-ending string of individual incidents that lead to a place where it becomes impossible to figure out who did what, who pulled the first punch, and who bears the lion's share of the responsibility for what is happening.

    But a few thoughts. European countries are all reporting similar tension and strife. Some of the negatives in public opinion can be explained very simply: An indigenous population feels challenged at every turn by groups that are culturally different, speak a different language, and who at the same time are competing for limited and shrinking resources. And when this happens, competition for basic resources is complicated by the feeling that one's birthright - one's privileged position in society - is also under attack by newcomers and upstarts. Upstarts whose numbers seem to be increasing by leaps and bounds.

    It is this very sentiment that the ultra-conservative politicians seize upon. They find it convenient to play with these emotions. Notice in the documentary that the conservatives are now OK with Jews. They have found a new enemy - Muslims.

    In the US the same political strategies and patterns of social strife occur. They occur frequently. However, this is a larger country geographically, and society is not so stratified as in Europe. So people at the bottom of the economic ladder do not feel stuck at the bottom or as helpless as they might somewhere else. Therefore there is less pressure to find targets for their rage. But the rage is still here.

    Now onto my overall impression watching as an outsider. Few in this documentary were authentic or honest. The vicar had it right -- there are issues below the surface that will come to top again and again. People have already made up their minds.

    At many mosques there is a continuing tirade against the West. And very little is done publicly to alter perceptions. In fact what non-Muslims claim they hear more often are justifications for acts of terrorism, abuse of women, etc. The neighbors of the milk-factory which opened a prayer room are distraught but they are not thinking clearly. One has to ask what it would take to snap them out of some irrational thinking and language? It was amazing to hear one woman say that having a prayer room directly under a flight path from Heathrow puts every air plane at risk. But she believes that. What and who will help unearth all the other beliefs like this, and then go to work to dispel them? I was dumbstruck by that statement. At the same time friends in Britain tell me that every day the newspapers report stories of bomb-scares. The populace in the London area is becoming weary from fear -- truly fed up. It was also evident that politicians manipulate the situation into electoral opportunities, and do not lead by problem-solving. These are problems that need to be solved for the good of humanity.

    Again -- we do here in the US experience all of this. But not as intensely because similar problems are spread over a larger geographical area.

    The issues in my humble opinion boil down to four themes:

    1. Those who enjoyed unquestioned feelings of privilege, of being in charge of their world no matter how small, suddenly discover that they must share their hegemony;

    2. When the economic order is in decline, it is very hard to share your shrinking privilege with strangers willingly;

    3. When the strangers are truly different and espouse values that clash with indigenous values, you rebel when asked to share anything;

    4. When societies feel helpless and frustrated, rage, anger and aggression look like an avenue of escape.

    It is a very difficult combination of problems that takes real political genius and moral inspiration to resolve. And no one is doing a good job far as I can tell.
     
  5. Canuck Singh

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    Inquisitive post Aad Ji, very interesting insights...

    I am not intelligent enough to post a response, but will post this in the words of Dr dyer:
    "
    With empathy you know in your heart that it's not a sign of weakness to attempt to understand that the people we call terrorists have placed the same label on us, and that the use of force will create a counter force, a never-ending saga of killing and hate. Ending war involves cultivating empathy in our policies and the love of God in our hearts.
    As the Native Americans reminded us: No tree has branches so foolish as to fight among themselves."
     
  6. spnadmin

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    Canuck ji

    Seems to me that less is more -- and you said a lot with less. The Native American saying is a keeper.

    Here are two from Judaeo-Christian tradition.

    A house divided against itself shall fall.
    The one who shakes the pillars of his own home shall inherit the wind.;)
     
  7. dalsingh

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    Aad, your comments are full of wonderful insights.

    I would add that in times of crisis, governments themselves can become prone to peddling such nonsense as a deflective technique to keep eyes off their own misdoings.
     
  8. spnadmin

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    dalsingh hi

    "peddling" is the operative word.:rolleyes:
     
  9. dalsingh

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  10. Canuck Singh

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    Anyhow, I am unsure of anyone else, but do you know who gets the most backlash for the rest of the world's fights?

    Yes, the most visible minority group in the world...

    I have had to post over 7 incidents on Sikhcoalition.org since coming to the Uk

    Where is my "new earth"?
     
  11. spnadmin

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    Canuck ji

    I was wondering why that issue was not raised in the documentary. There is a considerable amount of hate crimes against Sikhs in UK, particularly in the poor urban areas.
     
  12. Canuck Singh

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    I am glad at least, that Sikhcoalition and other organisations are available. Another good one is Valerie Kaur and her work: Into the Whirlwind and other videos are available, but not necessarily to educate the public at large.

    Indeed, thinking about the situation. Who is most likely to take the brunt of the attacks? Most individuals can blend into the British crowd and not worry about racism/backlash. But Sikhs stand out, and I am sure many more have suffered the brunt of the backlash.

    Nonetheless, such is my fate, and whatever is the Lord's Will is my Way... :up:
     
  13. dalsingh

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    I thought you was in Canada Canuck Singh?
     
  14. Sinister

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    YouTube - Islam is not a victim

    YouTube - A word to Islamofascists

    The questions are:

    Is there too much multiculturalism (pluralism), which has led to the erosion of national identity and social cohesion through ethnic enclaving?

    Is there not enough multiculturalism and pluralistic attitudes?

    You decide.

    this tension is all politics...politicians thrive off this tension (on both sides)....because when you have conflict...what do people say? we need more politics for a political solution (i for one dont think we need more politics)...integration is natural (both for hosts and immigrants)...politics just prevents this integration
     
  15. Canuck Singh

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    Canadian in UK finishing post-grad :thumbup: back n forth for a bit
     
  16. dalsingh

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    I would have thought the problem is worse in the US?

    Thing with the UK is that in areas where Sikhs have been for some time, the people will know them and locals will leave them alone. Going to certain deprived white majority areas will be another matter though! Avoid like plague!
     
  17. Canuck Singh

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    Perhaps London is better than Leeds!

    Apparently 45% of non-nativewhitebritish are in London, the rest are primarily in cities such as birmingham, leicester, etc.

    Although there are Punjabi folk here in Leeds, and I have met just as many nice people as sullen people, I think I am just a Canuck at heart...:}{}{}:

    British culture, including British Sikh culture is also different based on my observations people are generally more impersonal.

    That being said, I can not discount the severity and regularity of the racism that has occurred here. I have even had things thrown at me. BUt alas, a short stay longer and I will go back to the nature and serenity of the Rocky mountains,.
     
  18. KulwantK

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    Sat Nam, all, and Thank you for bringing this up. One thing it goes to show us all is that we might well remember that a man by the name of Marshall McLuhan stated, "The media is the message."
    In many ways he is correct. It is not just what is reported, but how it is reported.
    Look at all this stuff. Anger, frustration, rebellion, fights, hate crimes, bigotry; in short, it is all fear based.
    We need to look at the ways in which our emotions may be manipulated by media and those who control them. A good example is the following:
    ILLUMINIST STRATEGIES: The Delphi Technique The Delphi Technique8 commentsDefeating The Delphi Technique The delphi technique and hegelian dialects are heavily exposed at www.freedom-force.org This document will give some ugly but useful advice in how to defeat the Delphi Technique. If you're not familiar with what it is - it is a manipulative method used by Governments, Organizations and Unions to cause a 'pre-selected outcome' at a meeting, event, or function.

    Its usage is also implemented in any on line instrument such as a chat room, forum or newsgroup that has 'Moderators.' Here is how the delphi technique works (and boy its effective). It is based upon the Hegelian Dialectic of creating ones own opposition in order to manipulate that opposition to a unified consensus.

    One exposing document from the Education Reporter accurately describes it: In group settings, the Delphi Technique is an unethical method of achieving consensus on controversial topics. It requires well-trained professionals, known as "facilitators" or "change agents," who deliberately escalate tension among group members, pitting one faction against another to make a preordained viewpoint appear "sensible," while making opposing views appear ridiculous.

    So there you have it, - a highly trained change agent or facilitator is brought in whenever a dispute arises where a predetermined outcome is desired. The facilitator will host a meeting (on line or otherwise) to gather input from members of the group.

    The trick is anyone who disagrees with the pre-ordained plan is segregated, rediculed and marginalized, while those supporting the ruling powers agenda is encouraged and praised for their 'activism' The key is that it is important that the members of the meeting or group get involved thus causing them to have the feeling of satisfaction that they have been involved in the change.

    The sad reality is that the entire thing was only a mass crowd manipulation to a pre-determined end. Here is another example of what it is. The facilitator begins by working the crowd to establish a good-guy-bad-guy scenario.

    Anyone disagreeing with the facilitator must be made to appear as the bad guy, with the facilitator appearing as the good guy. To accomplish this, the facilitator seeks out those who disagree and makes them look foolish, inept, or aggressive, which sends a clear message to the rest of the audience that, if they don't want the same treatment, they must keep quiet.

    When the opposition has been identified and alienated, the facilitator becomes the good guy - a friend - and the agenda and direction of the meeting are established without the audience ever realizing what has happened.

    Trap-Dooring the Change Agent The simplest and most effective method to defeat the delphi technique is for everyone in the meeting to know about it. I call it trap-dooring the change agent. Here is how you do it. Prior to the meeting simply make many copies of what the Delphi Technique is (and how its used).

    That could be as simple as printing and making 500 copies of this document. If there is a 'facilitator' in the meeting, and you are reading this - try to see if you can see this tactic at work. Do you think this is a acceptable method of democracy where everyones rights are being equally respected?? I don't think so either.

    Why don't we start with a polite question for him like “Are you using Delphi?” How to Diffuse the Delphi Technique Three steps can diffuse the Delphi Technique as facilitators attempt to steer a meeting in a specific direction.
    1. Always be charming, courteous, and pleasant. Smile. Moderate your voice so as not to come across as belligerent or aggressive.

    2. Stay focused. If possible, jot down your thoughts or questions. When facilitators are asked questions they don't want to answer, they often digress from the issue that was raised and try instead to put the questioner on the defensive. Do not fall for this tactic.
    Courteously bring the facilitator back to your original question. If he rephrases it so that it becomes an accusatory statement (a popular tactic), simply say, "That is not what I asked. What I asked was . . ." and repeat your question.

    3. Be persistent. If putting you on the defensive doesn't work, facilitators often resort to long monologues that drag on for several minutes. During that time, the group usually forgets the question that was asked,which is the intent.

    Let the facilitator finish. Then with polite persistence state: "But you didn't answer my question. My question was . . ." and repeat your question. Never become angry under any circumstances. Anger directed at the facilitator will immediately make the facilitator the victim. This defeats the purpose.

    The goal of facilitators is to make the majority of the group members like them, and to alienate anyone who might pose a threat to the realization of their agenda. At a meeting, have two or three people who know the Delphi Technique dispersed through the crowd so that, when the facilitator digresses from a question, they can stand up and politely say: "But you didn't answer that lady or gentleman's question."

    Even if the facilitator suspects certain group members are working together, he will not want to alienate the crowd by making accusations. Occasionally, it takes only one incident of this type for the crowd to figure out what's going on.

    Establish a plan of action before a meeting. Everyone on your team should know his part. Later, analyze what went right, what went wrong and why, and what needs to happen the next time. Never strategize during a meeting. A popular tactic of facilitators, if a session is meeting with resistance, is to call a recess.

    During the recess, the facilitator and his spotters (people who observe the crowd during the course of a meeting) watch the crowd to see who congregates where, especially those who have offered resistance. If the resistors congregate in one place, a spotter will gravitate to that group and join in the conversation, reporting what was said to the facilitator.

    When the meeting resumes, the facilitator will steer clear of the resistors. Do not congregate. Instead gravitate to where the facilitators or spotters are. Stay away from your team members. Maybe the Diamond Tactic (communist tactic of crowd manipulation) will also interest you:

    1. Plan ahead of time what action you want the group to take: nominate or oppose a candidate, support or oppose an issue, heckle a speaker, or whatever. Everyone on your team must know exactly what they are going to do, including contingency plans.

    2. Team members should arrive at the meeting separately and never congregate together.

    3. Team players should arrive early enough to take seats around the outside of the assembly area, roughly in the shape of a diamond. They must not sit together. The object of the tactic is place your people around the perimeter of the audience so that, when they begin to take action, those in the center will have to do a lot of head turning to see them – to the right, then the left, then the rear of the room, then the front, etc.

    The more they turn their heads, the greater the illusion of being surrounded by people in agreement with each other, and the more they will be convinced that these people represent the majority opinion.

    The only way to thwart the Diamond Tactic is to always be prepared to match it with your own team. Never take a meeting for granted, especially if something important is scheduled to transpire, such as nomination of officers.

    Even a simple gathering to hear an important speaker can turn into a nightmare if opponents send in hecklers. So, always plan for the worst and be prepared to spring into action with comments from the floor such as: “I want to make it clear that these people do not speak for me. I am in total opposition to what they stand for. In fact, I would like to ask them to identify themselves. Who are you? Why did you come to this meeting? What is your agenda?”

    If comments such as this are heard from three or four people around the outside of the room, the meeting will be very exciting, but the tactic will be defused. S etting Up a O nline Trap Door For a Change Agent in a Forum (eg - [link]) an effective and blunt instrument to put a total kill on manipulations in an online forum is to simply post the Delphi Technique to several similar email lists.

    In the posting SHOW where you have attempted to post an educational expose showing how crowds are manipulated(both online and off). If a change agent is running a email group they are now in a juxtaposition. If they they attempt to censor the document, it will be quickly exposed in the other groups where the posting was allowed. If they DO post the document their techniques may be quickly realized.

    Either way they are cornered, and they have to cede their operations or face exposure. I am truly of the belief that everyone in North America should know the Delphi Technique and be taught to resist it.

    Now that you know the average public meeting (or online forum) can be highly manipulated from both sides, did you ever stop to think that the Hegelian Dialectic is being used at a national level by our one-mind propaganda media?

    Start learning some alternative information so you can become a critical thinker again. This document is public domain please copy and share freely with all.

    Thanks,
    Wahe Guru
    KulwantK

     

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