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Religious Orthodoxy:

Discussion in 'Sikh Sikhi Sikhism' started by vsgrewal48895, Apr 13, 2009.

  1. vsgrewal48895

    vsgrewal48895
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    Religious Orthodoxy:

    Sikhs of today are lost in labyrinthine maze of rituals, priest craft, religious robes, and submerged in superstitions. They are holding views that could neither be proven historically, scientifically, justified logically, realized and cognized inwardly. Their Wishy-Washy wishful religion is purely of promise and not of proof and performance. They try to compress life and truth in to a system of institutionalization, not knowing that to systematize life and truth is to limit it. Their desire to organize and proselyte rather than to inform, enlighten and subjectively experience that Truth themselves. The innate human alone can attain true power, for it is from with in that such power springs.

    Truth of a religion is experienced and realized when copiousness of man consciously enters in to his own being. He sees the things of flesh or pictures in question with the eyes of spirit.

    Spiritually fantasizing pictures of Sikh Gurus as painted by artists, according to their own feelings as they would have looked are being considered as idols and worshiped against the Philosophy of Sikh Gurus. Spiritually there is no difference between Gurus and Akal Purkh. Akal Purkh is formless so how come form/appearance of a Guru in a picture has any spiritual value. The following hymns from Sabd Guru are self explanatory;

    ਸਮੁੰਦੁ ਵਿਰੋਲਿ ਸਰੀਰੁ ਹਮ ਦੇਖਿਆ ਇਕ ਵਸਤੁ ਅਨੂਪ ਦਿਖਾਈ ॥ਗੁਰ ਗੋਵਿੰਦੁ ਵਿੰਦੁਗ ਗੁਰੂ ਹੈ ਨਾਨਕ ਭੇਦੁ ਨ ਭਾਈ ॥

    Samunḏ virol sarīr ham ḏėkẖi¬ā ik vasaṯ anūp ḏikẖā¬ī. Gur govinḏ govinḏ gurū hai Nānak bẖėḏ na bẖā¬ī.

    I have churned the ocean of the body, and I have seen the incomparable thing come into view. The Guru is God, and God is the Guru, O Nanak; there is no difference between the two, O Siblings of Destiny. -----Guru Amardas, Raag Asa, AGGS, Page, 442-18

    ਮਹਿਮਾ ਕਹੀ ਨ ਜਾਇ ਗੁਰ ਸਮਰਥ ਦੇਵ ॥ਗੁਰ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਪਰਮੇਸੁਰ ਅਪਰੰਪਰ ਅਲਖ ਅਭੇਵ ॥

    Mahimā kahī na jā¬ė gur samrath ḏėv. Gur pārbarahm parmėsur aprampar alakẖ abẖėv.

    The Glory of the all-powerful Divine Guru cannot be described. The Guru is the Supreme, Infinite, Unseen, Formless, and Unknowable Transcendent God. -----Guru Arjan, Raag Gujri Ki Vaar, AGGS, Page, 522-14

    ਦੂਜਾ ਨਹੀ ਜਾਨੈ ਕੋਇ ॥ਸਤਗੁਰੁ ਨਿਰੰਜਨੁ ਸੋਇ ॥

    Ḏūjā nahī jānai ko¬ė. Saṯgur niranjan so¬ė.

    Let no one think that God and Guru are separate. The True Guru is the Immaculate God. -----Guru Arjan, Raag Ramkali, AGGS, Page, 895-5

    ਇਹ ਪਧਤਿ ਤੇ ਮਤ ਚੂਕਹਿ ਰੇ ਮਨ ਭੇਦੁ ਬਿਭੇਦੁ ਨ ਜਾਨ ਬੀਅਉ ॥ ਪਰਤਛਿ ਰਿਦੈ ਗੁਰ ਅਰਜੁਨ ਕੈ ਹਰਿ ਪੂਰਨ ਬ੍ਰਹਮਿ ਨਿਵਾਸੁ ਲੀਅਉ ॥

    Ih paḏẖaṯ ṯė maṯ cẖūkeh rė man bẖėḏ bibẖėd na jān bī¬a¬o. Parṯacẖẖ riḏai gur arjun kai har pūran barahm nivās lī¬a¬o.

    O mortal being, do not leave this path; do not think that there is any difference between God and Guru. The Perfect God has manifested It self; and dwells in the heart of Guru Arjan.

    ਭਨਿ ਮਥੁਰਾ ਕਛੁ ਭੇਦੁ ਨਹੀ ਗੁਰੁ ਅਰਜੁਨੁ ਪਰਤਖ੍ਯ੍ਯ ਹਰਿ ॥

    Bẖan mathurā kacẖẖ bẖėḏ nahī gur arjun parṯakẖ¬y har.

    So speaks Mat'huraa: there is no difference between God and Guru; Guru Arjan is the Personification of the God It self. -----Bard Mathura, Swaeyea Mahla 5, AGGS, Page, 1409-5 & 12

    ਬੀਸ ਬਿਸੁਏ ਜਾ ਮਨ ਠਹਰਾਨੇ ॥ਗੁਰ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਏਕੈ ਹੀ ਜਾਨੇ ॥

    Bīs bisu¬ė jā man ṯẖehrānė. Gur pārbarahm ėkai hī jānė.

    When the mind is totally held in check, one sees the Guru and the Supreme God as one and the same. -----Guru Arjan, Raag Ramkali, AGGS, Page, 877-14

    ਨਾਨਕ ਸੋਧੇ ਸਿੰਮ੍ਰਿਤਿ ਬੇਦ ॥ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਗੁਰ ਨਾਹੀ ਭੇਦ ॥

    Nānak soḏẖė simriṯ bėḏ. Pārbarahm gur nāhī bẖėḏ.

    Nanak has studied the Simritees and the Vedas. There is no difference between the Supreme God and the Guru. -----Guru Arjan, Raag Bhairo, AGGS, Page, 1142-8

    ਸਭੁ ਕਿਛੁ ਤੇਰਾ ਤੂ ਕਰਣੈਹਾਰੁ ॥ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਗੁਰ ਅਗਮ ਅਪਾਰ ॥

    Sabẖ kicẖẖ ṯėrā ṯū karṇaihār. Pārbarahm gur agam apār.

    Everything is Yours, O Creator. The Guru is the Supreme Infinite, and Inaccessible God. -----Guru Arjan, Raag Bhairo, AGGS, Page, 1149-17

    ਗੁਰ ਪਰਮੇਸਰੁ ਇਕੁ ਹੈ ਸਚਾ ਸਾਹੁ ਜਗਤੁ ਬਣਜਾਰਾ ॥

    Gur Parmaysar Ik Hai Sacha Saah Jagat BaNjara.

    The Guru and God are One; Creator alone is the true Master and the whole world craves for It. -----Bhai Gurdas, Vaar 1, Pauri, 17-7

    ਸੰਤਾ ਕਉ ਮਤਿ ਕੋਈ ਨਿੰਦਹੁ ਸੰਤ ਰਾਮੁ ਹੈ ਏਕੋੁ॥ਕਹੁ ਕਬੀਰ ਮੈ ਸੋ ਗੁਰੁ ਪਾਇਆ ਜਾ ਕਾ ਨਾਉ ਬਿਬੇਕੋੁ ॥

    Sanṯā ka¬o maṯ ko¬ī ninḏahu sanṯ rām hai ėko, Kaho Kabīr mai so gur pā¬i¬ā jā kā nā¬o bibėko.

    Let no one slander the Saints, because the Saints and the God are as one. Says Kabir, I have found that Guru, whose Name is Clear Understanding (Gnosis). -----Kabir, Raag Suhi Lalit, AGGS, Page, 793-11

    Religious illiteracy is the cause of problems in the world at present. In general people are deeply religious but profoundly ignorant about religion. One of the great ironies is that people ignorant of other faiths don’t even know much about their own. Majority of the Sikhs can’t even name their ten Gurus and what to talk about do’s and don’ts written in AGGS. Sikhism is about inner cleanliness with development of virtues with contemplation, deliberation, and reflection of Naam in real life by living the instruction given in AGGS rather than wearing religious robes.

    Conclusion;

    Religious symbols, robes, rituals or external show of piety in any faith physically or in portraits does not confer spirituality as per AGGS. There are hundreds of hymns on form, robes and rejecting these in the AGGS and here are few;

    ਅੰਦਰਹੁ ਝੂਠੇ ਪੈਜ ਬਾਹਰਿ ਦੁਨੀਆ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਫੈਲੁ ॥ਅਠਸਠਿ ਤੀਰਥ ਜੇ ਨਾਵਹਿ ਉਤਰੈ ਨਾਹੀ ਮੈਲੁ ॥ਜਿਨ੍ਹ੍ਹ ਪਟੁ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਬਾਹਰਿ ਗੁਦੜੁ ਤੇ ਭਲੇ ਸੰਸਾਰਿ ॥

    Andrahu Jhoothay Paij Baahar Dunee-aa Andar Fail, Athsath Tirath Jay Naaveh Utrai Naahee Mail, Jinh Pat Andar Baahar Gudarh Tay Bhalay Sansaar.

    Those who are false within, and honorable on the outside, are very common in this world. Even though they may bathe at the sixty-eight sacred shrines of pilgrimage, still, their filth does not depart. Those who have silk on the inside and rags on the outside, are the good ones in this world. -----Guru Nanak, Raag Asa, AGGS, Page, 473-15

    ਭੇਖੀ ਹਾਥ ਨ ਲਭਈ ਤੀਰਥਿ ਨਹੀ ਦਾਨੇ ॥

    Bhaykhee Haath Na Labh-ee Tirath Nahee Daanay.

    Wearing religious robes, Akal Purkh is not obtained, nor is It obtained by giving donations at sacred shrines of pilgrimage. -----Guru Nanak, Raag Maru, AGGS, Page, 1012-13

    Finally even the ordinary Sikhs getting enlightened by honestly following the teachings incorporated in Sabd Guru are spiritually exactly like God and Guru Arjan in Raag Asa vouches for;

    ਜਿਨ੍ਹ੍ਹਾ ਨ ਵਿਸਰੈ ਨਾਮੁ ਸੇ ਕਿਨੇਹਿਆ ॥ਭੇਦੁ ਨ ਜਾਣਹੁ ਮੂਲਿ ਸਾਂਈ ਜੇਹਿਆ ॥

    Jinĥā na visrai nām sė kinėhi¬ā. Bẖėḏ na jāṇhu mūl sāʼn¬ī jėhi¬ā.

    What are they like - those who do not forget the Name of the God? Know that there is absolutely no difference; they are exactly like the It. -----Guru Arjan. Raag Asa, AGGS, Page, 397-17

    Virinder S.Grewal
     
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  3. Archived_Member4

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    Virinder, your reasons (Gurbani that you provided) given for your conclusion do not not go together. Then the Gurbani presented in your conclusion does not even state what you have said in your conclusion.

    If there are a 100 shabds on form, and robes rejecting these in Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji then provide them so we can see where you are coming from. So far you have not provided one SHABAD. The tuks you did provide do not say as you concluded.

    Thanks
    Singh
     
  4. Admin Singh

    Admin Singh
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    Singh ji, perhaps you could do some research of your own and provide supporting references to enhance the discussion in right direction rather than nullifying the efforts of an individual. Why there is so much effort to negate the efforts of one person? Have you ever followed Amarpal Ji, whether he agrees or he disagrees, he will provide his own understanding without pointing guns on every post somebody makes in the forum... need to do some introspection here... don't we? :)
     
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  5. Gyani Jarnail Singh

    Gyani Jarnail Singh Malaysia
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    Dear Aman ji and Singh Ji,
    Gurfateh.

    Although I agree in Principle with what Aman ji is saying about taking the trouble to research........

    I have been in the forefront of the SHABAD IN TOTAL .....BRIGADE..
    The TOTAL SHABAD and RAHAO TUK are absolutlly VITAL in any and ALL cases. This is to AVOID pitfalls of misuse/misinterprettaion/twisting/wrongful meaning
    Picking/chosing/individual TUKS is a dangerous game..open to abuse as dangerous as taking words out of context to "mean" anything and everything one wants

    SGGS contains only one shabad that is of TWO lines....ALL the REST are SHABADS and large ashtpadees...vaars..sloks...NOT a SINGLE ONE LINER anywhere.
    In most all cases the Shabd in Totality always means a totally DIFFERENT aspect/conclusion.... GURUS vital message is almost always in the RAHAO TUK of any Shabad. Leave that out..at our own peril.

    I would respectfully urge everyone that a Complete Shaabd with page Number be posted in all "quotes"....unless it can be proven that the TUK really stands alone !! and has the meaning in line with the rahao tuk. Very seldom RAHAO TUKS are quoted - simply because they are GURU JIS DECISION on any matter..and we differ !!!or wnat to tell something else.

    Chardeekalla jios..Have a Happy Khalsa day...I am !!
     
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  6. pk70

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    Respected Gyani Jio

    I beg to differ with Aman Ji. This is forum. People express views and the readers react to them. How it can be called "negation of one person"?

    Quotes in above posts do little to the title of the post but they are used more to attack religious symbols. That is why obviously it has been pointed out. Its sad that the author has failed to notice that in those quotes, target is the hypocrisy not the symbols. If it were symbols only, why would Tenth Nanak give symbols? When one liner is quoted to attack religious symbols, it is disservice to Guru. Take time to read the whole Shabadas, mind will be stunned.


    Regards
    G Singh
     
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  7. Tejwant Singh

    Tejwant Singh United States
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    Gyani ji,

    Guru Fateh.

    I totally agree with you. If you remember on GLZ forums, it was always urged to give the whole Shabad in English in your own words and explain the RAHAO- the nectar of the whole Shabad first.

    Once we start doing that here then most of the bickerings about one liners from anyone and I repeat anyone and everyone will dissipate. Gurbani should be studied as a whole Shabad, not in snippets.

    Talking about giving the whole Shabad, an email was sent to you and some others of this forum when some scholars here were talking about Faith with one liners without the whole Shabad. It was shown in the whole Shabad through the RAHAO verse that the whole Shabad has nothing to do with Faith as was propagated by some in here with one liners.

    As literal translations in English are misleading, so are one liners taken out to prove some point sometime which is not in the whole Shabad.

    By giving whole Shabads and by focusing on Rahao of the Shabad, all will be able to understand and savour the true essence of Gurbani. This will also eliminate the thinking that the ends justifies the means. In other words it will take us away from making a point and then quoting gurbani to prove that point rather than letting Gurbani makeing its for our understanding.

    And last but not the least. let us stop copying and pasting the literal translations from various authors but express the Gurbani in our own words. Otherwise it becomes nothing but parroting.

    Tejwant Singh
     
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  8. Archived_Member4

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    No one is picking on Virinder, it's just he has been writing many post lately and whenever he writes something faulty or not in-line with Gurbani I write on it. Aman Singh ji, go through my 450+ post and see if I negate the effort of a person because of the person. Also go through my post and see when I don't add support when it is needed. Point is Virinder views are expressed by using a tuk; taken out of context.

    The tuks he provides for his reasons speak about Guru and God being the same and that God is formless. He forgets to add that God does have the ability to take form and the True form for a Sikh is as a Khalsa. We have the Tenth Nanak saying Khalsa is my form. Then at the end he attaches some tuks that don't go along with his conclusion.

    I asked him to provide the 100 shabads that reject robes and form and I would like him to explain what the shabad is saying. This way we can understand where Virinder is coming from and understand his point of view. This is a forum and people are going to ask questions and challenge his writing just how everyone else's is challenged.

    This whole topic ends with a shabad from anand Sahib. Where Guru Sahib speaks about inwardly pure and outwardly pure. For a Sikh both are important for this way of life called Sikhi. Picking and choosing is called Manmat.

    Thanks for writing Aman Singh ji it has been a while since you wrote.

    Singh
     
  9. Archived_Member4

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    Everyone be walking on land mines on this thread now, watch out someone better not lawyer up here:D:D
     
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  10. Gyani Jarnail Singh

    Gyani Jarnail Singh Malaysia
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    This must surely be the final nail in the coffin of one liner quotes, selected with a purpose.
    in my own words...if the "Janeau" was rubbished by Guru nanak ji..the REASON was the HYPOCRACY hiding behind the thread. The HYPOCRACY that a certian type of janeau was for a Brahmin..high class..another was for a Khatree..lower class..and yet another was for the shudras...the lowest of the Low....CREATING DIVISIONS..CLASSES..among EQUALS..BROTHERS...THAT is the ILLS Guur ji IDENTIFIED and RUBBISHED.
    Guru nank ji also gave a DETAILED ACCOUNT of what exactly this HYPOCRACY is and how to avoid it.
    Guur nanak ji went DEEP..into the BACKGROUND..of the janeaus, the tilaks, the coconuts, the baths, the yatras...the what and whys of the WRONGS.
    Then GURU JI accepts the "non-Hypocritical" Janeau...made exactly the WAY he wants.
    This provs the janeau per se is not the problem..but what it HID ???
    The Royal Commission of Police Enquiry into Corrupt policemen would be looking into catching the "corrupt" policemen..NOT GO AFTER THEIR "UNIFORMS" per se...BUT an advisor trying to talk/advise these corrupt policemen would still be addressing them like this...RESPECT YOUR UNIFORM....bardee dee laaj rakho !!! Is he really addressing the "CLOTH/uniform" per se..OR the CORRUPT PRACTISES HIDING BEHIND THE UNIFORM ??
    Can we then assume..the "uniform" is unholy..dishonourable..its agisnt our ethics...or the corrupt ones wearing it ?? Is the Janeau being condemned..its a mere thread..or is the Brahmin//crafty pandit and his corruptness being cendemned VIA the Janeau ??
    In these posts..the main THRUST is on the UNIFORMS...and the push is taken from.." a few policemn were found guilty of corruption.."..so this writer CONCLUDES that its the UNIFORM that is part of the problem...its the uniform that is targetted..BUT WAIT..Guru Nnak Ji is NOT aginst the "uniform per se"..he says.a uniform made of such and such qualities is acceptable...and that means the person wearing such a uniform must be worthy..
    5 K's.... entirely voluntary...choice to ALL irrespective of any condition..
    entails compulsory Brotherhood, equality, classlessness, humility, responsibility, compassion, such a ROBE OF HONOUR Tenth nanak bestowed !! is acceptable.
    NO bagagge of the janeau is involved here...the Uniform is CLEAN...and for the CLEAN.

    2, Now the only academic debate remains to be settled...whcih came first..the EGG or the chicken...Amrit-Pahul First or the so called MR. Clean-inside first. Guru Nanak set no conditions...Bhai lehnna ji came...bhai buddha ji came....hun dreds more came....
    NO ONE was sent away first to be "MR.CLEAN-INSIDE" first before rejoining the Guru's darbaar....all sat the exams at the same time..Bhai lehnna ji PASSED. He didnt have to CHANGE anything...he was already changed. BHAI LEHHNNA JI gave his ALL....he came prepared to give his head !! thats why Guru nanak ji named him ANGAD..MY LIMB !!
    Guur nanak ji did nt draw a sword to call for Lehna jis head...not necessary...because the SIKHI was being made ready...by 1699 the entire plan was READY..the SWORD had to be drawn to physically ask for and receive the heads in a relatively SHORT TIME. For 200 Years the SIKHI TREE had been growing...watered..and thriving...the time had come to make a DECISION. Tenth nanak made that decision..the 5 Ks and the PAHUL ceremony to CHOOSE HUNDREDS of THOUSANDS of "ANGADS" in short time !! This time the GURU called them MY PYARAS..my BELOVEDs..same terminology as Angad..
    Guur Gobind Singh ji set no conditions. ALL welcome to give thier HEADS..and REVCEIVE the PAHUL. The PYARAS travelled HUGE DISTANCES...to come to GURU JI...were they READY ?? You bet.

    3. It is retrogressive to insist on going BACK to Bhai lehhna jis times...take 200 years
    ( human life is only around 70+ !!! 74 is nearing the end game as Gurbani declares satraan ka ????)...to Become MR. CLEAN INSIDE....before taking the plunge into Pahul..
    Even the lowly police academy has a short training period..then the uniform is given...then the ENTIRE LIFE before RETIREMENT is spent in being a GOOD POLICEMAN..being responsible for the Sanctity of the Uniform !! No one gets a Uniform at RETIREMENT..Mr Clean Inside is proven as no case was registered agaisnt him ?? Any such policeman in the world ?? anyone ?? Who spent his adult life serving the dept trying to be MR Clean inside..and on retirement was given his uniform to wear ?? as silly as this sounds..the same arguments are used agaisnt the 5 ks and pahul. I want to spend 75 years of my life trying to attain inside cleanliness...then maybe i will be fit for pahul ?? I have done numerous paaths..yet i am still dirty inside...??? who knows..sehajdharee for LIFe may be a life long mission for some..they are welcome to that. Not for me.No REGRETS.I dont want to die...clean inside but naked and berefit of my identity.:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:
     
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  11. spnadmin

    spnadmin United States
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    :D:D:D:D:D:D Singh ji

    This is my exact feeling--- GULP -- when I log on.
     
  12. spnadmin

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    In all seriousness -- and thank you Singh ji for the moment of laughter -- single-liners are sometimes relevant, but using them as VaheguruSeekr ji has pointed out to back up a personal opinion only leads to Gurbani squash tournaments -- which are in and of themselves undignified. This is so much like the pics you see on TV of orthodox anybody's religious zealots holding up quotes from the Bible or the Quran painted on sheets and pieces of cardboard. The only purpose of which is to taunt the "disbeliever." Taunting other people in the name of any understanding of God is also unworthy.

    A lot of controversy has transpired in the past week that could be avoided by one thing: Posting the entire Shabad with the Ang number and translation. (Actually a forum rule which has not been enforced as it should have been lately -- and I am one who is guilty.) When followed by or started off by a personal interpretation of the shabad it is even better. Forgive me for the school-house lecture.

    In truth -- what happens is this. The sacred words themselves become bullets in a gun. So let's give some thought to how to turn it around.
     
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