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Religion - A shroud for evil

Discussion in 'Interfaith Dialogues' started by makkanz, Oct 10, 2007.

  1. makkanz

    makkanz
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    Is religion a shroud for people to commit evil or immoral acts but then use their faith (and the fact that they actively exercise their faith) to comfort themselves in believing it is ok?

    I would like to ask this question. This applies to all religions. Here are some examples:

    1) A suicide bomber blows up themselves and a number of people e.g. Iraq, Israel, pakistan

    2) A person who prays on a regular basis but is happy to claim the unemployment benefit while having a regular income (e.g. Taxi etc)

    3) A father who marries off his daughter when they find out there might be someone else.

    I ask the last question because it is relevant to me. If you look at my other thread you will see why i am asking this question. How is number 3 different from people selling off slaves in sexual slavery? Is it not also something against a person's will? How can someone use their faith and their beliefs to justify an evil act such as this? This happens everywhere i know, especially in Islam but i would like to pose this question here as well and I would like some honest answers.
     
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  3. spnadmin

    spnadmin United States
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    makkanz ji, No one has responded to your comment yet.

    Your remarks refer to 2 very important questions. Are religions a cover or shroud for evil? Can we rightly use religion to deprive other humans of their basic rights? You know that the answers cannot be simple. My humble opinions, and only opinions.

    1. It is important to separate religion from the people who profess to members of a religious path. There are now, and throughout history there have been, individuals who used religion to justify great wickedness. But this is too simplistic an answer because there are also religions that give humans the right to commit violence against others in the name of God. Sometimes these religions even require violence in the name of God.

    2. Sikhism does not condone taking fundamental rights from others in the Name of God. All of Sikh history is the story of fighting to preserve the rights of the downtrodden. We do not own our children, or our women, or slaves, etc. When children are born, their souls seek the couple who parent them biologically and choose parents who will create the stage for their souls' karma to be worked out.

    So parents are entrusted with a huge responsibility and do not have moral authority over the souls of children. But some Sikhs do terrible things -- as you have mentioned. it is the Sikh not Sikhism that is at fault.

    Why? We know why.. just like the oppressive rulers of Persia, the Crusaders, or those who stone women and those who keep quiet about it, so the parents who force a daughter into marriage are consumed by Pride and at bottom Despair. Guruji is not real for them.

    Do you think this will end? The important thing is to use your head and not despair yourself.
     
  4. makkanz

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    I am moved and humbled by the quality of your response. Thank You
     
  5. makkanz

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    You do realise i am muslim right? Quite secular but muslim by birth.
     
  6. kds1980

    kds1980 India
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    Dear makkanz

    how are you?

    In the traditional society where religion,culture, and tradition are important for family ,parents regularly marry their daughters to others inspite if they are seeing others.It is a matter of families position and respect.It is easy for daughter to marry outside religion.
    But it is very difficuilt for parents to face their society.The respect they earn in decades
    is lost forever.

    Also many girls make blunderous decision while marrying a person.they are plenty of cases in world where girls run away with their boyfriends only to find out that they are already
    married,or just satisfying their sexual desires with them.

    As far as your community is concerned i am sorry but majority of muslims are not at all trustworthy for marrying their daughters.recently i saw a blogspot by muslim where pictures of sikh girls were displayed to insults sikhs.i am not saying that there are no good and tolerant muslims.but they also has to suffer because of what majority is doing.
     
  7. makkanz

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    Hello kds1980,

    I am ok. Thank you for asking. I cannot disagree with you at all. I am disgusted by the muslim society and how a majority of them have gone so far away from what logic would suggest is right or wrong. Just blind to what they are doing to others and to each other as well.

    It is very unfortunate.

    Regards,
    Makkanz
     
  8. makkanz

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    But i think there is hope. There are people there from all cultures and religions who do look at things in a balanced way. Who retain the good parts from our faiths and combine them with the good parts from the western culture to form a balanced and well adjusted outlook on life. I am one, and so is my true love. And i think there are a lot more out there who are just like us.

    You know when i was younger, my father told me that it was a good thing to break the statues that hindus pray to (his words). I always wondered why it would be a good thing to do that to something so important to someone else. I could never reconcile that with everything else my parents taught me about right and wrong.

    So there is hope for us all. I think more and more of the newer generation are forging a new future where we say no to the fear, xenophobia, hatred that has been cultivated in the past by unfortunate and unforgivable acts by our ancestors. And we are moving on and reforging the strong bonds we should have with everyone but especially muslims, sikhs and hindus because we are but one race.
     
  9. spnadmin

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    Maklanz ji

    I did not know you were Muslim, and knowing that would not have changed what I have said. Bothersome to me is the fact that there is a resurgence everywhere in religious fundamentalism. Muslims do not speak as loudly as they should. But others do not either. A woman who is married off by force is the victim of rape, only the rape is legitimated by the religion. The acquiescence of all parties to this shows how easy it is for the mind to be seduced.

    But we also read of Sikh women who are tricked into going on vacation, only to be married by force. Or they are simply told, today we go to Gurdwara and you are getting married. These women are also victims of terror. We read of honor killings. And we read of ghastly acts of violence, as you point out, against others, all justified by religion. No one religious group is stainless in this regard.

    The worst part is what you have said -- a basic right has been violated, a basic freedom.

    You are a Muslim. You spoke out. You may not be as secular as you think you are. I should stop right here and say that you have earned your place as a spirit minded person, who is asking the tough questions, trying to be better than that, and you are someone who added something good to my world.

    Stay in Chardi Kala
     
  10. clarkejoey

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    Sat Sri Akal.

    First, i agree with what has been said thus far. Just to expand a bit... it's unfortunate that people who plan/do wicked things use religion - our great gift - to excuse their wickedness. Some use politics for the same thing: invading countries, imprisonment without trial, etc etc etc... when folk want to be cruel, they will be cruel, and they will excuse themselves with whatever works.

    Makkanz, i understand how sad it must be when your religion is being misused in this way; i was a Catholic when the child-abuse business flared up, and it was heartbreaking to me that sick men were able to hide in their robes to avoid the law.

    On the bright side - in your case and the Catholic one - the evildoers are (i hope and pray) the exception rather than the rule. Most muslims i have met - and indeed, most Christians - are just regular folk trying to do the best they can. Pity that the unpleasant ones attract the most attention.

    More important is that we don't let awful people blind us to the admirable ones. Also, we need to resist the temptaion to say: "since there are evil people of faith X, faith X is a bad thing."
     
  11. spnadmin

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    clarkejoey ji,

    I am using your response to build a little on past remarks by me and others


    First, i agree with what has been said thus far. Just to expand a bit... it's unfortunate that people who plan/do wicked things use religion - our great gift - to excuse their wickedness. Some use politics for the same thing: invading countries, imprisonment without trial, etc etc etc... when folk want to be cruel, they will be cruel, and they will excuse themselves with whatever works.

    There is no question that this happens. It happens because Pride, Lust, Greed win out over truly God-centered thinking. We must not forget that "religion" is commonly re-invented as a social institution by its followers, and this has been true from the beginning of civilization. Part of the purpose of religions is to shape people, especially children, to instill fear of consequences here and beyond death, when social norms are violated. None of this has anything to do with God, but all that happens is his hukam. In the end we can't know what God wills.

    Makkanz, i understand how sad it must be when your religion is being misused in this way; i was a Catholic when the child-abuse business flared up, and it was heartbreaking to me that sick men were able to hide in their robes to avoid the law.

    I do not know how so many suffering people remain standng, remain patient and kind Penance and asking for forgiveness will cleanse pain and relieve the desire for revenge. But in the end each individual has to find the value in No-hatred No-enmity for himself/herself.

    On the bright side - in your case and the Catholic one - the evildoers are (i hope and pray) the exception rather than the rule. Most muslims i have met - and indeed, most Christians - are just regular folk trying to do the best they can. Pity that the unpleasant ones attract the most attention.

    It is more difficult to understand and then move away when talking of the above. True most muslims, catholics, protestants, and others are doing the best they can. But there are segments of Islam that are dedicated to the destruction of other ways of life. There are even some Sufi mystics who choose silence rather than challenging injustice, for religious reasons. So many deeply embedded Sikh values are continually challenged by the words of the prophet Mohamed and his followers. When Sikh parents learn of a daughter or a son who plans to marry a muslim, can one not understand the feelings of panic they must experience? But of course forced marriages only deepen the effects of hatred and enmity. These emotions become stronger and weigh more heavily in the universe each time. Then we are all trapped in negative realities more and more.

    More important is that we don't let awful people blind us to the admirable ones. Also, we need to resist the temptation to say: "since there are evil people of faith X, faith X is a bad thing."[/quote]

    In the end each individual has to find No-hatred No-enmity in himself/herself.
     
    #10 spnadmin, Oct 10, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 16, 2007
  12. clarkejoey

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    (Taking off rose-coloured glasses)

    It's true, too true. There are those who systematically - and with scriptural (written) authority - oppose other faiths. There are Christians in my neck of the wood who eagerly attend "Missioning Classes" whose only end is to teach people the folly of their Non-Christian faith. And that's not even as frightening as those who don't want to debate, just to destroy.

    Thanks for reminding us of the difference between "religion" and spirituality; "religion" being the public, structured doctrinal translation of spirituality, which is the wordless, ineffable experience of God in one's own life/self/soul.
     
  13. makkanz

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    Thank you for your support and comments everyone. My initial email with regards to parents might have been a bit strong however i believe it is a abhorrent practice in any day and age .. especially this one.
     
  14. Astroboy

    Astroboy Malaysia
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    Quote by Clarkjoey, "Most muslims i have met - and indeed, most Christians - are just regular folk trying to do the best they can."

    I like what you said here. It is in harmony with my intentions in this forum to establish a harmonious base for all to be simple and loving community.

    Thanks.
     
  15. makkanz

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    #14 makkanz, Jan 12, 2008
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2008
  16. kds1980

    kds1980 India
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    Here is the latest case of a brahman person his Daughter,son in law and grandson because his son in law was from lower caste.

    Details emerge in deadly Oak Forest arson case :: CHICAGO SUN-TIMES :: Metro & Tri-State
     
  17. BhagatSingh

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    None of those are related to SIKHISM but the second two are realted to Punjabi culture.
    I can see how the first one might relate to islam, but none of those prove how religion is a shroud of evil!!??
     
  18. makkanz

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    People in these situations find comfort in their religion but at the same time somehow justify actions that would be unjustifiable in any religion. To me, religions are a guide to how one should their life, a documented list of things one shouldnt do, which either have a scientific or moral reason behind it. How one can justify the termination of a life (possibly two in this case) and still consider themselves a religious figure and a leader in that religion is hard to fathom. Religion is not a counterweight to be used to balance out unforgivable tasks. Many people consider it to be general ledger of some sort. Do enough good and when you do some bad things, the good will outweigh the bad. To me that is a shroud, one uses within their own mind to balance unforgivable actions. examples ..

    1) Muslim molwi runing prayers etc in a mosque, and yet a ruthless business person in their private life ripping off people left right and centre. Well known to the community (ripped off my family as well)

    2) Medievil wars in europe. A large number of rich widows left (as the knights had been murdered), the church created the concept of "witches" to burn a number of rich widows as witches in order to confiscate their posessions

    3) Jews etc .. in how they treat the palestinians for example .. people who have are outgunned, outnumbered and virtually no money. Hardliners murdering their own leader when their leader gives agreeing to terms that would bring peace

    4) Palestinians, recruiting innocent young children and women to blow themselves up ... i dont see any of the leaders putting on a bomb vest and blowing themselves up.

    All i am saying here, is that people who have a strong and clear set of religious guidelines and practice and study the religion .. how can they commit such atrocities... Thats why religion is a shroud. It, somehow, allows them to live with themselves, to put a cover over their evil acts, and somehow justify to themselves ...

    Its very easy to say that culture and religion are two different things, but religions shape our cultures. So, the question is ... is religion responsible for us doing these evil things .. does it make it easier to do it .. when one can find comfort in their religion while committing evil acts, whether it be suicide bombers or honour killings.

    I am sorry, but i am starting to loose faith in religion .. not GOD .... religion. I am ashamed of being muslim and even more ashamed of people who commit these evil acts in the name of Islam. They misinterpret, or interpret in a manner that suits them and then blindly, without question, follow what they hear and see and commit evil acts.

    Do you understand what i am saying? Turning, the lens back onto sikhs (this is a sikh forum) .. i think the punjabi culture as it has developed under the superiority complex i have seen in a number of sikhs.

    Please correct me if i am wrong, but I see a large of sikhs believing their beliefs are superior to other people of different faiths. They feel more spiritual and walk with heads high. Believing they are closer to GOD than other people of inferior faiths.

    That is the impression i get. All i can do is shake my head and feel sad. People are people. We are all equals. And we are capable of evil. And it seems more easily when one is more religious or considers themselves closer to god. Very sad.

    Now do you understand why i think religion is a shroud for evil?
     
  19. BhagatSingh

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    First of all, the Sikhism is actually better that the other religions. This is a fact!
    Firstly, other religions have a lot of scientific errors. Sikhism does not.
    Other religions do not promote equality of man and woman and all races. Sikhism does. This is the main reason that religion in general are a shroud of evil. IF you say that these religions(Islam, Christianity, Hinduism etc) DO promote equality of Men, WOmen and humanity, then you need to study them :hmm: because they don't.

    So the fact that large number of Sikhs think their beliefs are superior, are not wrong.
    But if they believe they are superior to other people, then that goes against the very basic Sikh principles of equality.
     
  20. makkanz

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    what i was raised to believe in my muslim family .. is that everyone is equal, men, women from all faiths and that we will be judged according to our beliefs and our actions. Noone ever told me that Islam is superior to other faiths. Simply that it suggests a way to live your life. Talking about women and especially mothers, they are placed as the head of the family ... and funnily enough .. in our family ... my mother is the boss !!!!

    I find your religious arrogance insulting. I dont believe any faith can tell us that ours is better than yours.

    From all i have read, the sikh faith says to focus on the meaning and spirituality of your beliefs and dont get lost in the mechanics. Hence, you will feel closer to god than those who simply practice their faith.

    Nowhere, does it say that it is superior. It is people who come to that conclusion and in doing so, i believe they have taken a step away from god.

    Reading your comments, it seems like you agree with my initial point about religion being a shroud for evil?

    and women being equal in your faith .... maybe in your faith ... but not in your testostorone fuelled punjabi culture .. especially daughters ...

    Tell me, do you treat the daughters the same way as your sons? From what i have seen, there are 2 set of rules and yet you all insist that women are equal ... or is it only once you have married them off with the boy of your choice?

    Do you see the hyporcisy? Again, your beliefs then become a shroud for your actions ... as proven by your female leader ... to the point where she probably murdered an unborn child (27 weeks - fully formed) and quite possibly her own daughter ...

    Tell me, where was her faith then? If your beliefs are so much superior, why didnt they stop her from doing such evil acts . and why didnt the sikhs get up and hold her accountable ...

    or is this behaviour acceptable in your faith in this situation .. and you can all turn a blind eye?
     
    #19 makkanz, Jan 13, 2008
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2008
  21. kds1980

    kds1980 India
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    In one of your earlier post you said that your father told you that hindu idols should be broken and now you are saying that you were told that all faiths are equal.Is breaking the idols of hindu god's mean's equality to you.

    O.K. please tell me how many muslim families are ready to accept if their daughter's marry hindu's,sikhs or christian's.

    Why are you blaming the action of jagir kaur on sikhism.If i start posting crime's of muslims then it will be consisdered as spamming as the numbers are so high.

    Maakanz here is small example for you

    BBC NEWS | England | Merseyside | Marriage fear teenager 'murdered'

    Marriage fear teenager 'murdered'
     
    #20 kds1980, Jan 13, 2008
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2008

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