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Rehabilitation or Decimation?

Discussion in 'Sikh Sikhi Sikhism' started by Harry Haller, May 30, 2012.

  1. Harry Haller

    Harry Haller United Kingdom
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    Gurfatehji

    There are a lot of unwholesome types out there, bullies, rapists, sexual deviants, drug dealers, pimps etc. The world is full of some quite nasty people. My own philosophy is to avoid such at all costs, rather than get involved, I find there are many innocent people that have fallen, and they take priority when I give my time to try and help.

    So what we do when we come across the nasty people of the world, those for whom a certain way of life is normal, devoid of respect or kindness, whose only objective is to gain money, or indeed whatever they want through force and intimidation, on the one hand, Guru Nanakji rehabilitated thugs, on the other hand Guru Gobind Singhji decimated them, although I feel Bandaji possibly went a bit too far.

    My own feeling is that Creator gave us a brain, Guruji shows us how to use it, and it is up to us to use it wisely and adopt the correct retaliation as per the situation, however, there are those that feel the way of Guru Nanakji should always be a first consideration, just like those that feel the way of decimation should be the primary consideration. In my view there is no text book way to deal with any situation, I think a true Sikh should be a person capable of anything as per Sikh philosophy, and not mired in one extreme philsophy or another.

    We must forgive, as such is good for the soul, but we must never forget, for that would be stupid,

    comments welcome
     
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    #1 Harry Haller, May 30, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 5, 2012
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  3. Kamala

    Kamala
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    I don't understand what you are trying to say..
     
  4. Luckysingh

    Luckysingh United States
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    I think it's a matter of keeping a balance, that's what I always try to do.
    We must try to forgive but it's not always easy.
    In all fairness we can all argue that rapists may be given to long sentences, just to say as an example. It could be equivalent sentences to murderers let's say. Taking these views we may all vote that they be reduced so as to stop overcrowding and costs!!

    BUT, if the rapist had raped your sister or wife, then would you still feel the same and be willing to forgive a few years off the sentence ??
    Very unlikely!!!
    So, personal affects do play a role no matter how strictly we adhere to laws and ethics.
    This is where we have to personally maintain a correct balance with both approaches.
    But, trying to forgive is better than not even attempting it.
     
  5. Harry Haller

    Harry Haller United Kingdom
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    Do you wish me to me mention a few Hindu deities to make it easier to understand Kamalaji?
     
  6. Kamala

    Kamala
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    LoL, no thanks. I don't think I want to know after your rudeness..
     
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  7. Gyani Jarnail Singh

    Gyani Jarnail Singh Malaysia
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    BUT that BAD behavior is MENTIONED IN GURBANI...like How SHIVA assumed the figure of a RISHI, went into his hut after the Rishi had gone for his morning bath, raped her....and then when the Rishi returned and found out about the RAPE of his beautiful wife by SHIVA the GOD...He CURSED SHIVA to have HUNDREDS of FEMALE VAGINAS all over his body (becasue he loved that part of the female anatomy badly enough to rape a wife of his own sisshya/follower) and he also CURSED the MOON by throiwng his wet towel at it !! (Becasue the Moon rose early to create impression that it was time for his bath....and also the cock who crowed early as well to cheat the Rishi..all Co-Conspirators of SHIVA the God !!
    BTW the Peacock- fan feathers are used in Hindu mandirs/religious ceremonies because the "EYES" on the Feathers look similar to the Vaginas on Shivas Body....
    DG proponents cite this "mere mention of vagina" as EQUAL to DG.s graphic descriptions of sex acts and ORGIES..like comparing a Biology book mention to a vulgar text and justifying that..
    We have Brains and Gurbani instructs us..AAkleean Sahib Seveah...so we are able to judge and discern whether we are to "worship" such gods like Shiva or not...mere mention doesnt mean worship...
     
  8. Harry Haller

    Harry Haller United Kingdom
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    Apologies Kamalaji,

    it was never my intention to be rude, I just wondered if you found it easier to understand concepts using mythical figures from history, some people find it hard to conceptualise without imagery, without a reference point if you will, of course there is the fear that instead of digging beneath the imagery and discovering the message, you get stuck on the imagery, but I am sure you are discerning enough to realise that Bhenji :happykudi:
     
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  9. Kamala

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    LoL, we have imagery of them.
     
  10. Ishna

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    Harry, brother,

    How does one judge a person to be such? The answer to your question lies in the extent to which you are willing and able to judge the other person.

    I'm not sure you can compare Guru Nanak ji with Guru Gobind Singh ji in these matters. Guru Nanak worked with thugs 1:1, Guru Gobind Singh worked on the scale of war. I am given to understand he used gold-tipped arrows as compensation for the people he killed, and he authorised Bhai Kanhaiya to administer water and ointment to fallen soldiers. I wouldn't call that decimation and I wouldn't call the soldiers thugs.

    Lucky ji makes a good point with his post.

    It is a very difficult question you pose, Harry. It is double-edged. Do you remove the criminal entirely to save more innocent victims? Or do you give the criminal (who has already affected someone's entire life) the benefit of the doubt and allow them to ruin more lives on the off chance that they might rehabilitate?

    A rapist who rapes, serves time, is released and lives the rest of their lives as a regular person has still got the better deal than the person who was raped who will carry that trauma for the rest of their lives.

    What is justice? If justice has been satisfied, and rehabilitation has been effective, then everybody wins. But these days there is no justice and rehabilitation is rarely effective.
     
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  11. findingmyway

    findingmyway
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    I completely disagree. Guru Gobind Singh ji was completely in line with Guru Nanak Dev ji. He tried diplomacy and rehabilitation. It failed. He did not decimate but merely defended. Decimation is attack. Sikhs use self defence. It is not the same thing.

    I see the modern day glorification of violence in Sikhism and portrayel of Guru Gobind Singh ji as epitomising this. It saddens me as I think it misses point of his actions and intentions completely. It is how the Taliban twist Islam and how the IRA twist justice motherlylove:mundaviolin::confusedmunda::omggg:
     
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    #10 findingmyway, Jun 5, 2012
    Last edited: Jun 5, 2012
  12. Kamala

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    Please cite where you have found this info :) if you found it from a Sikh website it's +1 for you.
     
  13. Gyani Jarnail Singh

    Gyani Jarnail Singh Malaysia
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    Kamala Ji..Its NOT from a "Sikh" website or anywhere else..its from SGGS...GURBANI. Google Shiva references in SGGS..and then pick up any teeka etc...its there
     
  14. Gyani Jarnail Singh

    Gyani Jarnail Singh Malaysia
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    I agree wholeheartedly. Its clear misconception and misrepresentation.
    ALL 4 Battles of GURU HARGOBIND SAHIB JI were Purely DEFENSIVE in Nature. All four were WON by Guru Ji despite the great odds of the well trained Mughal armies facing untrained sikhs who were farmers, villagers, halwaiis, carpenters etc.

    Guru Har Rai ji kept an armed Cavalry Unit of the best 1000 horsemen...Guru Ji didnt fight even a single skirmish as he wasnt attacked./distrubed in any way.

    ALL the battles of GURU GOBIND SINGH JI were also DEFENSIVE....self defence after being attacked by well armed overwhelming enemy forces. Not a single time did GURU Ji go on the OFFENSIVE to seek trouble !! Anandpur sahib was ATTACKED and surrounded by the enemy...Guru ji was "persuaded" via Solemn OATHS on Sacred Cows and Quarans...to leave and all woudl be OK...these solemn oaths were broken shamelessly and the Guru was ATTACKED at Chamkaur and in Muktsar after that.

    Baba Banda Singh was the First Sikh general to go on the OFFENSIVE. Until the establishemnt of the Sikh Khalsa Raaj of Ranjit Singh, Sikh misls and Jathas were relatively DEFENSIVE most of the time...defending themsleves and very few offensive battles.

    June 1984...Darbar sahib was DEFENDED by Sikhs under Bhinderawaaalh. Operation Bluestar was an OFFENSIVE ATTACK on Darbar sahib by the Indian Armed Forces.
     
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  15. Harry Haller

    Harry Haller United Kingdom
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    Apologies, my statement does read to suggest that.

    in hindsight, and in context of the title, it should read

    on the one hand, Guru Gobind Singhji rehabilitated thugs, on the other hand he also stood up to them,

    it was easier to use the first and tenth master as examples in history clearly shows events that assist in this understanding, however, it also creates an argument of general deviation from the teachings of Guru Nanakji, which was not my intention. peacesignkaur
     
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  16. Gyani Jarnail Singh

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    harry Ji...:singhbhangra::singhbhangra::singhbhangra: i agree with the new choice of words..brilliant !!
    Guru Nanak Ji rehabiliated Sajjan THUGH into simply SAJJAN .....btw..( Sajjan was the Local Chapter of the Indian MAFIA known as THUGGHS - a Cult of thousands spread all over India that were Durga worshippers, sweet talked their victims and strangled them with their customary red scarf and looted them and buried the bodies..Robert Clive decided to put an end to them but the word "THUGGH" survives them....in Punjabi it means a CHEAT/fraud..who are mostly non-violent types..and in English as "THUG" it means a bully, cheapskate Gangster robber/thief/snatcher etc who does use Violence..)....and GURU NANAK JI also STOOD UP to Thugghs like Babar !! IN Gurbani we find Namdev standing up to Thugghs like the Sultan etc.

    2. Guru Gobind Singh ji also rehabilitated thughs and stood up to them to...btw in BETWEEN...other GURU SAHIBS also did the same...like...Guru Anagd sahib too stood up to the naked sword of Humayun who stpped by at Khadoor Sahib to "threaten" Guru ji while fleeing Sher Shah Suris armies..Guru Amardass ji in advanced age also stood up to Tapa a religious thuggh and tried to rehabilitate him but the people killed him by dragging him around their fields..sad case.

    Guru Hargobind Sahib ji ...also rehabilitated thughs and stood up to them.. Guru Arjun ji sahib,
    Guru Har rai, Guur har Kishan ji, Guur teg bahdur Ji stood up to thughs via non-violence
     
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