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Regarding the definition of Sikh according to Reht Maryada

Discussion in 'New to Sikhism' started by namjiwankaur, Sep 3, 2012.

  1. namjiwankaur

    namjiwankaur
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    Sat Nam _/|\_

    I have always read the definition of Sikh according to Reht Maryada as if Sikhs are those who have been baptized. But I just read it differently this time. It actually says if someone believes in the Sikh baptism, they are Sikhs. To clarify, does it mean someone becomes Sikh only after baptism or does it mean they are Sikh if they believe in baptism.

    :blueturban:
     
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  3. Ambarsaria

    Ambarsaria Canada
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    namjiwankaur thanks for your post
    Great observation. I believe that the following indeed is the "INCLUSIVE" statement to define a minimum set to be a Sikh,

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    It actually covers children to adulthood state of people, say born in a Sikh family or other all such children or adult. It can be classified as a minimum requirements definition of a Sikh. It is foundational.

    Baptism is recommended in SRM at the point where a Sikh can responsibly carry on the expected personal and panthic/communal aspects of being a fully practicing Sikh. There are references to a person's age and maturity in reference to Baptism.

    I believe the words "faithfully believes in" do imply practicing of the beliefs hence the remainder aspects of the SRM to be addressed at a personal level as and when one is ready.

    Sat Sri Akal.
     
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    #2 Ambarsaria, Sep 3, 2012
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2012
  4. Chaan Pardesi

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    Gurmukho, To comence with a Sikh is NEVER baptised.The questions of baptism NEVER arises in Sikhism nor should ever arise.I dont know how you have arrived at such a conclusion that a Sikh is ever baptised. The claim "It actually says if someone believes in the Sikh baptism, they are Sikhs" holds no water what so ever within Sikhi.


    A baptism is a confirmation to a christian church, a commitment to follow the directions of a particular christian church.

    Sikhism is not a sect or denomination of any christian religion, so how can a Sikh be baptised to "confirm to a church".

    A Christian can never be intiated into the Khalsa or Sikh religon and be confirmed to the Sikh tenets, and still call himself/herself a CHRISTIAN!

    Thus baptism is peculiar to the christian; like circumcision, read with kalma of the Koran is peculiar to a Muslim as is the circumcision of a Jew done by the readings of the Thorah; and the initiation of the Sikh with pahul khanda is peculair to the Sikhs.

    A Jew cannot be baptised, nor a Muslim or a Hindu, so like wise a Sikh is NEVER baptised.Sikh scholars of the old have erroneously used wrong terms to describe the Sikh religion many a time.

    Perhaps what you mean is a initiated Sikh.A Sikh is initiated in to the Khalsa.He does not become a Khalsa by getting "baptised"-a terminology very very wrongly used to define an initiated Sikh.

    I think you may have misunderstood the sentence when it says ""It actually says if someone believes in the Sikh baptism, they are Sikhs".

    What it means is rather different than your literal understanding.

    A Sikh is a learner that embarks upon the course/path of the Sikhi, must believe that the final goal is to be initiated into the Khalsa.That is what it means.It does not absorb one nor exempt from not under going the initiation simply because one beleives in the final goal; does not mean the one has achieved the final goal.

    I terribly BELIEVE in law,but that believe alone has not made me a lawyer, I need to study law and pass the bench marks set, to qualify as a lawyer!Sikhi has its own benchmarks.Because many find hard, are always trying to find ways to by pass those bench marks of Sikhi....and try to find easier paths...considering Khalsahood came at the price of FIVE heads, they simply want to escape keeping their one head intact!!

    Unfotunately due to many numbers of factors, many diferent "varieties" of Sikhs have developed in today's world.Many "believe" they Sikhs, simply because they were born in Sikh families, or Sikh families that had lost some Sikh aspect along the way, or have become what they refer to themselves as "MODERN" Sikhs, even though many cannot speak nor hold sensible conversations nor have a modern outlook to life!!

    Others discarded the identity of the Sikhs and still convinced /believe they are Sikhs because they feel Sikhi is" internal" and not on the "outside" or external!

    Others "feel" Sikh but because their grandfathers & mothers were hindus,but they are all part of Hindus still; as they understand!

    Whatever concosions there are, these are simply man made illusions.To truly follow the defined true path of Sikhi, it is at some stage necessary once one has mastered and understood the intricacies of Sikhi in practice and actions and mentally to become initiated into the Khalsa.Guru Gobind Singh has clearly without any doubt shown and directed that.

    I hope that clarifies that a Sikh never undergoes any baptism, but initiation into khalsahood!The word Amritpaan transliterated means initiation not baptism.I should have made more use of the words AMRITPAN.
     
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    #3 Chaan Pardesi, Sep 4, 2012
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2012
  5. Ishna

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    Chaan Pardesi ji

    Perhaps you could send your concerns regarding the translation to the SGPC so they can amend their website accordingly.

    Newcomers to Sikhi will read the translation on the official SGPC website - how are they to know any different?

    Ultimately you're right, it should say 'initiation' and not 'baptism'.
     
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  6. Chaan Pardesi

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    Ishna,JI, I thought that is why SPN is here - to get us all educated!That is how the new commers will know.Learning is a continious process.It does not come all in one day!When young, I too believed the Sikhs were baptised.

    Dont you agree, that SPN is a forum for learning and re-learning ?Or do you still think it is unwise for me to share it here, so others can learn and I can learn from them.I hope, I have come to the correct forum!

    On the other hand I could write to the SGPC, but I doubt the Jathedar would ever understand what I am trying to explain.As I can see they are even having difficulty understanding in Punjabi!

    I hope now you will understand, why I rather not waste my time with the SGPC[who I know are also notorious in ignoring mails, letters and not responding] as any mail I send will lie in the vaults until someone finds it perhaps 150 years later.

    By the way, official or not official, as long as the Sikhs learn through the Sikh media and gurmat mode,it would be better than the parchar SGPC does!I think so!

    Knowledge shared here and now is the best, I think, would you not kindly agree?
     
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    #5 Chaan Pardesi, Sep 4, 2012
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2012
  7. Gyani Jarnail Singh

    Gyani Jarnail Singh Malaysia
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    They cant even get the PUNJABI RIGHT...what to expect of ENGLISH ??
    GURBANI in SGGS says it REPEATEDLY..that the ONE and ONLY "AMRIT" is GURBANI/NAAM..................yet we have Sikhs calling the PAHUL "amrit chhaknna"....when it clearly declared PEEVOH PAHUL KHANDEHDHAAR Hoveh janam Suhela !! Not in a SINGLE incidence does the SGGS say that the Khandedhaar Pahul is "Amrit". Once having SLIPPED OFF the slippery EDGE with MISNAMING THE PAHUL....then Sikhs have begun calling the SAROVAR WATERS...RIVER WATERS, BAOLI WATERS, Various BOTTLED WATERS.....as "AMRIT".....heck even the Water used to wash the feet of Deotees/visitors to Gurdwaras at the DOORWAYS..is also called "Amrti" and drunk by many !! Isnt this Most UNFORTUNATE ?? Guru Gives us a Most Valuable GIFT....."and calls it AMRIT..the Naam the Gurbani form the Creator"....and we look at the Priceless DIAMOND....and declare..........NO..the GRAINS of SAND on the beach..also "gleam"....AH...so the sand is also DIAMOND EQUAL in Value to be also called "DIAMOND/AMRIT"....and given the same honour !!.

    2. The GURU WROTE decisively..Bani GURU GURU Hai bani..vich bani AMRIT SAREH......and this is real ONLY when the SIKH LISTENS and OBEYS the GURU UNRESERVEDLY !!! without a single question.

    Guru Declared the SGGS as GURU.


    The Moment the GURU closed His eyes in 1708..the SIKHS ran out and ....created multitude of "gurus".....LOOK Alike Imposter GRANTHS...look alike Imposter Gurus (RSSB, Sacha Sauda, namdharees Nirankarees etc etc)....or Babas/Brahmgyanis/mahapurashes/Sri 10008's etc etc etc to..worship, listen to, obey, follow and honour EQUAL to the SGGS.There is NOT a SINGLE Sant Ji/mahapurash ji/Sri 1008, Brahmgyani in the SGGS..ONLY Mehallas, Bhagats, Sheikhs, .....BUT look around and see such MUSHROOM GOD MEN roaming the world...esp PUNJAB.

    so we have banis, Gurbanis, Gurus, Granths, Pahuls, Amrits, ANEKTA..instead of EKTA which the GURU STRESSED. EK Oangkar is set aside............many many BEKaars,DOKaars etc abound...the problem is way beyond mere VOCABULARY...the Underlying PRINCIPLES...the Foundations are being shaken and destroyed...
     
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  8. Ishna

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    Chaan Pardesi ji

    I wholeheartedly agree SPN is a forum for learning and re-learning, and you are most welcome to share your knowledge.

    Agreed.
     
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  9. Harry Haller

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    I cannot see what all the fuss is about personally, you say baptism, I say amrit chaka, I used to avoid using the word God, because it had Christian leanings, but at the end of the day, its just language, we all know what baptism means, every book I read as a child referred to baptism within Sikhism, I think its actually more confusing to use the correct terminology for our young folk, I mean with respect, we are not stupid, we realise we are not Christians regardless of the words used, be they baptism, God, whatever, also let us try and remember that Sikhism is no longer purely a Punjabi preserve, it is now a universal religion, so to use purely Punjabi words limits the audience to whom many may gain something out of universal language terms.

    The SPGC obviously realised this. . . . . .
     
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  10. Gyani Jarnail Singh

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    harry Ji,

    I respectfully DISAGREE.
    CORRECT VOCABULARY and DEFINITIVE words are VITAL.

    1. The JEWS came first..why didnt the Christians just copy the word Synagogue and call theirs Christian Synagogue..Christian rabbi..The New Torah ?? The Muslims came later..why didnt they also have Muslim Rabbi, Muslim Torah..or the Muslim Synagogue ??

    The Very PRINCIPLE behind Baptism...CHURCH...Rabbi synagogue mosque etc are all DIFFERENT from PAHUL...GURDWARA..etc ..Thus we simply cannot call the SGGS the Sikh Torah, or the Sikh bible or the Sikh Koran...we cannot call our Gurdawara Sikh Church, Sikh synagogue or Sikh mosque..or Sikh temple !! Putting on a janeau is NOT same as putting on a GatraKirpan..tying the Maulee is NOt the same as wearing the Karra..the TRINITY is NOT EK OANGKAAR...

    SIKH,.....GURMATT...is an entirely different ball game..its not football or hockey..or netball..or rugby....although we may use *****...fileds...bats...leg guards..etc etc...its still NOT nay of those Games..its a GAME called Je ko prem khelan ka chao..SIR DHAR talee galee meri ayo...all the SIKH PLAYERS are HEADLESS !! thats the BIGGEST DIFFERENCE...the next time you have a football/hockey/cricket/netball/rugby GAME on TV and the Players are HEADLESS..call me..I want to see...and RECORD that game....I will be able to RECOGNISE the Manager/Coach..as Guru gobind Singh ji...cheerleader
     
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  11. itsmaneet

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    I have a very small & simple view on it. Lets first understand the mean of 'Sikh' & 'Khalsa'.

    Sikh - A Disciple
    Khalsa - Purest - Complete


    A diamond is not much worthy till it's cut & polished by an expert. Similarly, when a person comes to Sikhism, he remains Disciple until he gets baptized to become 'KHALSA'.

    The above views also coincides with the views of - Sant Naranjan Singh Ji (Patiala) who was also Star Pracharak of SGPC, frequent visitor to Malaysia)
     
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  12. thesikhviewpoint

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    whenever and wherever there is a comment by gyani jarnail singh jee, that single comment puts light on many dark holes...really love reading the knowledge about gurmat being shared by gyani jee.....:singhsippingcoffee:
     
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  13. Harry Haller

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    Gyaniji,

    I accept your argument completely and without reservation. However, with the greatest respect, is the word baptism purely a Christian preserve?

    Dictionary definition of baptism is

    bap·tism   [bap-tiz-uhm] Show IPA
    noun
    1.
    Ecclesiastical . a ceremonial immersion in water, or application of water, as an initiatory rite or sacrament of the Christian church.
    2.
    any similar ceremony or action of initiation, dedication, etc.
    3.
    a trying or purifying experience or initiation.
    4.
    Christian Science . purification of thought and character.

    I would think that number 2 would be acceptable in terms of a universal purifying experience.

    In that essence I see nothing wrong with the statement 'being baptised into Sikhism', however, I would, as always appreciate your clarification.

    From your post, I would concede that words that have an association with certain religions, ie, church, Torah, bible, etc should not be used, but Baptism , according to the above can be used universally, apparently :interestedmunda:
     
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  14. lionprinceuk

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    Please do remember this is SGPC maryada, and NOT traditional maryada!
     
  15. Harry Haller

    Harry Haller United Kingdom
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    This isnt SGPC maryada, this is M and S Maryada! lol lol lol lol

    sorry, only those living in the UK will understand!
     
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  16. Gyani Jarnail Singh

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    Harry Ji,

    IF a person Googles.."What or How is baptism carried out...." almost ALL the results will begin with....CHRISTIAN....BAPTISM ( from the GREEK Baptizem - meaning IMMERSION/PLUNGE/LARGE BODY OF WATER)............and IF that person goes ON to click the LINKS given...100% of the FIRST PAGE of 25 RESULTS are ALL CHRISTIAN BAPTISM SACRAMENT CHURCH BIBLE JESUS...and so on...see this link as an example...

    http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p2s2c1a1.htm

    NOTHING in there even REMOTELY resembles Khandey batte dee Pahul..no sins are washed off, nobody is made a son of God, no body dies for anyone else, etc etc...ALL THE UNDERLYING CONCEPTS, PRINCIPLES are NOT GURMATT TEACHINGS.

    IF However we USE ONLY "PAHUL" and ONLY PAHUL...then we will have resources on PAHUL..people who search Google for PAHUL..will be directed to PAHUL RESOURCES. Simple as that. DIRECT and SIMPLE.

    I ma a very STRONG advocate of SIKHS using GURMATT TERMINOLOGY...because THAT TERMINOLOGY FITS GURMATT TO a T with the Ts all crossed and the i' s all DOTTED.
    There is absolutely NO need to rely on nay other specialized terms meant for various other principles/philosophies that dont have the remotest relation with GURMATT.

    Last night i wrote a long post on how Gurmatt Gyaan is the latest, most logical and scientific based GYAAN of the Creator and why it deserves its very own terminology. Guru nanak decided to use a NEW SCRIPT...NEW VARIATIONS of Vocabulary to put forward this GYAAN. Due to limitations of HUMAN LIFE TIME...even 10 life times ( no other religion has 10 Gurus...No other religion is NOT based on and around its FOUNDER ONLY...Christ is CHRISTIANITY...MUHD is ISLAM...Gurmatt is NOT built AROUND GURU NANAK..its a PATH to the CREATOR...GURMATT is BUILT AROUND ONLY THE CREATOR- solely the Creator. ( unfortunately the post disappeared into thin air when i was just about to click Post Quick Reply...so will be rewriting today..he he lol ??
     
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  17. Gyani Jarnail Singh

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    Abraham was a PROPHET....Moses...Jesus...Muhammed....all are PROPHETS.
    PROPHETS have "qualities" etc which have to be FULFILLED...otherwise any tom d.ick and harry will be a PROPHET (actually many toms moons di.cks defied that ban and self proclaimed as PROPHETS..so there goes that "quality control check )

    BUT..GURU NANAK JI ( +9 ) was NOT a PROPHET. He FAILS all the "qualities" that make Jesus muhd etc prophets..and IF SIKHS continue using the word "prophet" to describe Guru ji..then we are bound to have Mulsims Christians crying out..Guru nanak was a FALSE "Prophet" a Fake Prophet..He wasnt a Prophet etc etc...and THEY are ALL CORRECT..simply because they are Comparing APPLES with ORANGES...Guru nanak ji is NOT a Prophet at all..not the way they qualify their prophets..

    Guru nanak wasnt a "GURU" either..He wasnt an "AVTAAR" either...He wasnt a "Son of God"...he wasnt a REDEEMER..He wasnt a Washer of YOUR SINS...

    to be continued....
     
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  18. Luckysingh

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    I think we have rightfully estabilished in the last few posts, that amrit chakna should not really be called baptism but ''INITIATION'!!!
     
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  19. Gyani Jarnail Singh

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    http://www.copticchurch.net/topics/thecopticchurch/sacraments/1_baptism.htm


    is as far away from "PAHUL"....as the Andromeda galaxy is from US here on Earth...at the very least if we accept "initiation"..or the dictionary meanings provided by Harry ji...and as far as the "Next UNKNOWN yet to be discovered galaxy....which may be trillions of Andromedas AWAY from Us...lol.....
     
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  20. Gyani Jarnail Singh

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    http://www.spiritualencyclopaedia.org/Articles/B-articles/baptism.htm


    Here the Most Important part is..in the Beginning sentence of the SECOND PARA..."Jesus Christ HIMSELF NEVER BAPTIZED ANYONE.....and Compare to Vasakhi 1699 and what Guur gobind Singh ji did there...!!! Not the remotest resemblance...

    The ONLY ONE THING thats in BOTH Pahul and baptism is WATER. All comparisons END AT WATER. Are we willing to accept that "PAHUL" is just plain WATER/BATH/??? etc"

    Rather than someone coming to me with a PRINTOUT from one of the Links I posted..and telling me.."Gyani ji..can you tell me the DIFFERENCES...or DELETE the Parts about baptism and REPLACE with PAHUL....so I can know what the DIFFERENCE between Pahula nd Baptism...I KNOW I will be forced to DRAW CANCELLATION LINES so heavily that the new Document will look like a millions chickens ran haywire ....WHY shouldnt we SIKHS start off with a CLEAN SHEET of Paper..and wrote in Simple Plain English what PAHUL IS...Isnt that much much better ?? No cancelling, no distortions, no explaining repeatedly this and that, . Would Guru nanak ji have accepted an already BOUND COPY of the VEDAS ( or Koran..or Bible..or Purans..or mahabharta..Gita..etc etc ) and just EDITED IT to make it look like the SGGS....cancel whats not gurmatt..add some..delete some..and proclaim..OK..Done...Heres a copy of the SGGS..it looks like the Vedas, it sounds like the Vedas, it reads like the Vedas..BUT really its SGGS.( the ONLY thing shared between the two is PAPER and INK !! just like WATER in my baptism qoute..):mundaviolin:
     
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  21. Gyani Jarnail Singh

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    YES..Lucky Ji...PAHUL ( INITIATION) !! is the best way.:singhsippingcoffee:
     
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