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Raj Bina Nahin Dharam Chale Hain, Dharam Bina Sab Dalle Malle Hain

Discussion in 'Sikh Sikhi Sikhism' started by kds1980, Feb 15, 2009.

  1. kds1980

    kds1980 India
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    I read somewhere that following quote is written by Guru Gobind singh ji

    "Raj Bina Nahin Dharam Chale Hain, Dharam Bina Sab Dalle Malle Hain"

    Does anybody has Idea In which granth this quote is written?
     
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  3. japjisahib04

    japjisahib04 Kuwait
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    Re: This quote - Raj Bina Nahin Dharam Chale Hain, Dharam Bina Sab Dalle Malle Hain

    Guru Gobind Singh Ji is not the author of these lines, neither is this from SGGS.
    Best regards
    Mohinder Sahni
     
  4. spnadmin

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    Re: This quote - Raj Bina Nahin Dharam Chale Hain, Dharam Bina Sab Dalle Malle Hain

    Mohinder ji

    You know it is all over the Internet that these words are by Nanak X. Mostly in youth forums. But read this below. It seems that the verse is very controversial :confused:

    Sikh Museum to have portrait of Balkar
    Vedanti, Mann lock horns over hymn
    Gurbaxpuri
    Jamarai (Tarn Taran), July 6
    Source http://www.tribuneindia.com/2008/20080707/punjab1.htm

    An unsavoury situation occurred during a gathering organised to pay tributes to Balkar Singh, who was shot dead by guards of Dera Sacha Sauda chief in Mumbai, here today when jathedar of Akal Takht Giani Joginder Singh Vedanti and SAD (Amritsar) president Simranjit Singh Mann entered into a verbal duel.



    The cause of the verbal duel between them was a hymn “Raj bina nahi dharm chale hai...,” which, Mann said, was part of Gurbani. Vedanti contradicted it, accusing Mann of misleading the Sikh community by relating it to Gurbani.


    During their arguments, the gathering raised slogans of “Khalistan” zindabad and brandished their swords. Jathedar Vedanti stopped his address midway and left the venue.



    Meanwhile, president of the SGPC Avtar Singh declared that the portrait of Balkar Singh would be installed at Central Sikh Museum at the Golden Temple in Amritsar. He gave Rs 1 lakh to the deceased’s mother and announced that a family member, who fulfilled the conditions, would be provided a job with the SGPC.



    Minister for rural development and panchayat Ranjit Singh Brahmpura expressed sympathy with the family.



    In a resolution passed on the occasion, Akal Takht and other organisations called upon the Sikh masses not to be misled by living gurus.


    So where did it come from? Very weird... A writer on one blog says it comes from Guru Nanak. Most believe that it was stated by Guru Gobind Singh. But I searched and it is not in either Bani.
     
  5. dalsingh

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    Re: This quote - Raj Bina Nahin Dharam Chale Hain, Dharam Bina Sab Dalle Malle Hain

    I vaguely recall that it was from a manuscript copy of Rattan Singh Bhangu's Panth Prakaash that has since been lost. Could be wrong though.
     
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  6. pk70

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    Re: This quote - Raj Bina Nahin Dharam Chale Hain, Dharam Bina Sab Dalle Malle Hain


    Regardless who penned it down it, it reveals the truth History verifies it and we witness everyday :cool:
     
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  7. Tejwant Singh

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    Dear Gyani Arshi ji,

    Guru Fateh.

    I have a personal request to make.

    Can you please interpret this in lay man's terms and also shed some light how this is related to the Miri-Piri life of Sikhi?

    Thanks and Regards

    Tejwant Singh
     
  8. sadhu

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    vaheguru seekr ji

    So, who wrote these lines?
    Because i want to know if guru gobind singh wrote these lines.
     
  9. Hardip Singh

    Hardip Singh India
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    No exact proof of the writer exists. But one thing is certainly their that it tally's with the basic concept and teachings of Guru Gobind singh jee. Could be a verse from many of his poems or one written by his 52 great poets.
     
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  10. Gyani Jarnail Singh

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    Dear Tejwant Ji,
    Gurfateh.

    Imho..this is one of those sayings....that put theory into practise.
    My understanding of thsi is that RAAJ......POLITICAL POWER is very necessary ingredient to speed up the rapid spread of a "religion....or any other ideology"
    1. Christianity began its rapid spread once the RAAJA..the KINGS were converted....thus Europe turned Christian soon after...then came the Christian Roman Empire...Crusades...etc etc..
    2. Christianity spread worldwide..due to the " Christain Whiteman" grabbing political power and COLONISING the world.
    3. Islam came on the scene..and spread rapidly only after it began to use the SWORD...conquer...and take over political power...the Caliphates..the Mughal Empire...
    4. Today Isalm is the power behind the govts of more than 40 Govts - remove that power and bring in democracy..freedom of religion..and islam will rapidly decline....

    The Difference in this Phrase is the QUALIFYING....DHARAM BINA SABH DALLEH MALLEH HAIN.
    The Writer says that although RELIGION cannot spread rapidly without POLITICAL POWER. HE INSISTS .that POLITICAL POWER MUST be SUBSERVIENT TO DHARAM !! IF DHARAM is neglected..then ABSOLUTE POWER will be CORRUPTED ABSOLUTELY..as is happening worldwide in many countries and so called Religious Countries !! Chaos results...

    That is my understanding in layman terms..
     
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  11. Gyani Jarnail Singh

    Gyani Jarnail Singh Malaysia
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    and if i may add..this is also true for political ideologies like Communism..Marxism. These would have just remained theories on paper..if not successful in grabbing and keeping a stranglehold on political power in USSR Eastern Europe, China Vietnamese etc. When this power was absolute and in the hands of afew...it fell as in the fall of the USSR.Eastern Europe...and may be slowly happening in China.. IF these Leaders had some "goodness" like Dharam backing their actions..they would have succeeded a little longer..but they became dictators Stalin, Lenin, Khrsuhchev...with no morality of good actions.....

    2. KHALSA increased rapidly during the time of Mahraja ranjit Singh - political power....and the numbers declined just as rapidly when the Empire Collpased within 50 years....State Patronage helped a whole lot...but most were merely opportunists...converting to sikhism to earn favours- with not much DHARAM...so became dallaeh malleh soon...
     
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  12. Tejwant Singh

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    Gyani ji,

    Guru Fateh.

    Thanks for the response.

    You write:

    So the answer lies in having a true democracy with the concept of Miri-Piri, then all religons will be able to breed harmony amongst them.

    Then they say I am a dreamer....

    Tejwant Singh
     
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  13. spnadmin

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    Tejwant ji

    I don't think you are a dreamer. What you propose may sound like dreaming, but only by people are either unable or unwilling to overcome their cynicism -- which is often a justification for not thinking and trying harder.
     
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  14. ManinderSingh69

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    The views of Guru Gobind Singh on temporal sovereignty are given in his writing Krishan Avtar.

    1) Deg, Tegh Jag mein dohon chalen,
    Rakh lo moi aap, awar na dalen
    meaning both my economic power and strength of arms should prevail in the world. Under your protection, none be able to trample me.24

    2) Koi kisi ko Raj na de hae
    Jo lai hai nij bal sit lai hae
    meaning, no body gives self rule as a gift to another,
    it is to be seized through their own strength.25

    3) Raj bina neh Dharam chale hain
    Dharam bina sab dale male hain
    meaning, that without political power Dharam does not prosper and without Dharam the society remains admixture of hoch poch.26

    source:http://sikhinstitute.org/akaltakht06/13-surindersingh.html
     
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  15. spnadmin

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    Nanak X was a brilliant man. From your same link
    He also understood it takes a Gurmukh to balance "Raj bina neh Dharam chale hain
    Dharam bina sab dale male hain." Otherwise, these are only words. Nothing comes of it. It takes constant moral accounting, continual reflection on the consequences of one's motives and actions.
     
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  16. Kanwaljit Singh

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    Has anyone looked for this line in the Sarbloh Granth?
     
  17. spnadmin

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    If one follows up the link to Institute of Sikh Studies, the hymn is credited to Krishan Avtar.

    However, after earlier searching reported in this thread, and current searching, the couplet is not found in Krishan Avtar. Another theory is that it can be found in Surag Parkash.

    Does it appear in Sarbloh? For that again there does not seem to be a source.
     
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    #16 spnadmin, Dec 31, 2012
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2013
  18. Tejwant Singh

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    Maninder Singh ji,

    Guru Fateh.

    Let's be honest. We have no idea if the above verses are from Guru Gobind Singh ji, how inspiring they may be.

    Let's not try to play Guru Gobind Singh ji. If he wanted those verses to be His, he would have added them to the SGGS, our only Guru, as he added his dad's; Guru Teg Bahadur's Gurbani, not only at the end but in between the SGGS where the context made sense.

    It would be sheer arrogance on our part to think otherwise.

    Thanks and regards

    Tejwant Singh
     
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  19. Kanwaljit Singh

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    I asked about source of Raj Bina Nahi Dharam lines on Sikhnet and got this reply:

     
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  20. spnadmin

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    Kanwaljit ji

    Thanks for following up. Here is the problem. Can we actually find this in Gurbilas Patshai Dasvi, as a verbatim quote? If we can find it, then there is the problem of authentic quoting. The writings of Sukha Singh, particularly Gurbilas Patshai were written many years after the the life and death ofBaba Banda Singh Ji Bahadur, and are based on family stories, anecdotes and personal notes than cannot be verified. There are scholars that argue that accounts by Sukha Singh are infused with 19th Century theories about Guru Gobind Singh, and regarding a past-era of Sikh history, biased toward sectarian viewpoints. Problematic!
     
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  21. Kanwaljit Singh

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    At least it is better to say that it 'could have' been said by Banda Singh Bahadur rather than Guru Gobind Singh.
     

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