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Raagmala : Part of Gurbani or Not ?

Discussion in 'Hard Talk' started by Neutral Singh, Feb 18, 2005.

  1. Neutral Singh

    Neutral Singh
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    What are your views about Raagmala being part of Gurbani or not ? Please take care to provide good references to support your arguements or counter arguemetns.

    Thanks
     
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  3. Arvind

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    What is Raagmala?
     
  4. vijaydeep Singh

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    Ek Oankar Wahiguru Ji Ki Fateh


    Ragmala is verses just at the concluding part of Guru Granth Sahib Ji ,which are telling about various Ragas.AKJ and some schoolar do not consider it as a Bani but no Adi Guru Granth Sahib Ji's copy is considered complete without ragmala.

    Das votes for its being Part of Gurubani
     
  5. Arvind

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    Thanks veer ji.

    Now I remember asking the same thing before too I guess. Forgive my ignorance please.

    Regards.
     
  6. TeraRoop11

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    Guru Fateh All...........

    I believe Raagmala is shudh part of baani. Although, Singstah, the articles in your post give many good arguments, they are written by a man who fully believes that the Raagmala is not shudh baani, and is therefore looking for reasons to support his own belief.

    Might I remind you, that the Raagmala is not the only baani without a srilekh? Look Jap Ji Sahib da paath. The start of Sri Gurur Granth Sahib Ji, and the initial explanation of Ik Oankar, and Mool Mantar. I find this to be a question of belief; believe it or not, the choice is yours.............
     
  7. Gyani Jarnail Singh

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    Veer Vijaydeep Jio,

    It would be informative if you can quote some references as to why you vote for raagmaalaa being Gurbani.

    Thanks in advance.

    jarnail Singh
     
  8. Gyani Jarnail Singh

    Gyani Jarnail Singh Malaysia
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    Waheguru Ji ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji ki fateh.

    Sri japji Sahib is needlessly "dragged" into this debate jsut to "prove" it has no sirlekh/mahalla as raagmala...

    People seem to forget that JAPJI SAHIB ( and its MOOLMANTAR" seemingly without sirlekh/mahalla is REPEATED agin and again in the Guur garnth ji...31 times in fact )...was already so FAMOUS as GURU NANAK JI's DIVINE BANI during the LIFE of GURU NANAK JI himself. Bhai Lehna Ji heard the paath of JAPJI SAHIB and came to look for the writer...Guur nanak Ji....and loved what he saw and became GURU ANGAD JI. Bhai Amardass Ji also HEARD Japji Sahib Being RECITED LOUDLY..and wanted to meet the WRITER of this Divine Gurbani....and when He came..Guur nanak Ji was replaced by GURU ANGAD JI...Bhai Amardass ji also Loved what He saw, stayed on to Become GURU AMARDASS JI.

    NO such "evidence" exists for Raagmaala. SO please STOP dragging in JAPJI SAHIB into this Mud-pit of Raagmaala ??? Japji Sahib BEGINS GURU GRANTH JI, its Moolmantar occupies Pride of PLACE 31 times through out the Guru Granth ji, is well known to be GURU NANAK KIRT through ROCK SOLID evidence.

    On the other hand this "Raagmaala" EXISTS word for word in a TRASHY SEX BOOK called madahvnall's KAMKANDLA. It is CORRECTLY NUMBERED there in SEQUENCE ( unlike in Guru Granth Ji whetre the writer just put (1) after every pankitii...making NO SENSE at all and going AGAINST each Rule followed so striclty by GURU JI through out the entire Guru Granth Sahib jee meticulously.) This is ROCK hard evidence that this FEW LINES going under "raagmala" name have been LIFTED ( cut and paste so familiar to us !!!) from the Kaamkandala book. NONE other "gurbani" from Guru granth jis exists anywhere else..HOW did "raagmaaala" get into that book ?? and in SEQUENCE too..too PERFECT SEQUENCE to deny.

    GURMATT does NOT sanction BLIND FAITH/BELIEF. AAkleen SAHIB SEVIAH akleen keechee daan..says Gurbani.

    The LAST and IRREFUTABLE EVIDENCE is that the Mundawni Mh 5 and the Slok Mh 5..are GURU ARJUN SAHIB JEE's BANI.....BUT when GURU GOBIND SINGH JI REWROTE GURU GRANTH JI...and ADDED in GURU TEG BAHADUR JI's GURBANI....GURU JI SHIFTED these two...MUNDAWNI MH 5 ( SEAL/STAMP of APPROVAL) to the END....and also SLOK MH 5 ( THANKSGIVING SLOK to thank Waheguru for Successfullty Completing this GREAT GRANTH JI). Then ONLY is raagmaala present....IF this raagmaala had been "gurbani" GURU JI would have placed it BEFORE the STAMP of Approval and Thanksgiving Slok ( it is a literary tradition that all writers BEGIN a Major Granth/Poem etc with a SLOK to THANK His GURU/MASTER...hence GURU GRANTH JI also begins with a SLOK..listed as "AAd sach Jugaad sach Nanak Hosee Bhee sach [[1]]" This is the MASTER of GURU NANAK. The CONCLUDING SLOK is Slok mah 5 Tera kita jato nahin... THANKS being given to Waheguru for "his" help in concluding this great granth. This Fits in very well into the PERFECT SYMETTRY of GURBANI as prepared by Guru Ji through out Guru Granth ji...the way the bani is separated by Guru, Sloks, pauris, ashtpadis varaans,bhagats banis..slok varaan te vdheek ( EXTRA SLOKS which are therefore put in one place and NOT scattered all over the place haphazardly)..EXTRA care taken to NUMBER sequenbce, add/write footnotes such as SHUDH ( cotrrected) Shudh Keeche ( I have corrected this)..Instructions such as "Eh slok AAd aant parrhnna..PLEASE READ this SLOK at the Beginning and at the END...because this Slok does indeed occur TWICE and some smart aleck might decide to SKIP one reading...so GURU JI specifically INSTRUCTS..READ THIS TWICE just the way it is RECORDED TWICE..and how Guur Ji WRITES Numbers as PEHLLA/DOOJA/TEEJA so we dont read them wrongly as Mh EK, Mh do or Mh tin..the correct way is Mahalla Pehlla, Mahalla DOOJa etc. ALL this Proves GURU jis was vwery very METICUOLOUS adn Careful with GURBANI...No additions. alterations, adulterations could OCCUR..and NONE has OCURRED...EXCEPT at the END..where raagmaala was added in...and BEFORE raagmala there are several other spurious additions as well..How to make INK, Shah mohamdah sloks etc etc etc..ALL these come AFTER SLOK MH 5 Concluding Slok..BUT BEFORE Raagmaaala...so HOW are the Pro raagmala going to PROVE that the RECIPE for INK is also GURBANI...the Shah Mohammadah sloks are also Gurbani...THESE have been taken out of Guur garnth because they are TOO PAINFULLY OBVIOUS that they are NOT gurbani..not by along shot..but Raagmaal managed to "hold on by the skin of its teeth...BECAUSE the SANT/BABAY LOBBY of DERAWALLAHS latched on to it as a Fighting weapon aginst the SINGH SABVHA reformers..thats the real story.

    I look forward to the authentic reasoins that PROVE raagmala is "gurbani" at PAR with the rest of GURBANI. These SAME SANT BABAY are also INSISTING that the Chitrapakhoyan ( also found elsewhere in ancient texts exactly as in dasam granth) to be DIVINE GURBANI..when they CANNOT read this "GURBANI" in the company of their own wives and daughters ( OH I forgot the sant abbay DONT have wives or daughters !!!)

    Love for all

    Jarnail Singh
     
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  9. Arvind

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    Respected Gyani ji,

    I love reading your posts, which make a lot of sense due to clarity of words, and simplest way of explanation. I humbly request you to keep sant/baba off from this discussion, that may off-track the discussion about raagmaala.

    With respect and love, Arvind.
     
  10. TeraRoop11

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    Guru Fateh, Gyani Jarnail Singh Ji................

    You make some really good points here, and I myself am starting to wonder...........
    Thank you very much for your post, I love the way you express yourself.............
    Keep it up ji...............
     
  11. vijaydeep Singh

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    EK OAANKAR WAHIGURU JI KI FATEH
    Dear Gyni Sahib Ji,

    Das first of all touches your feet and seek blessing of Akal who is in your heart so that Das could prove his point.Rest is in the hand of Akal.

    So regarding Ragmala,Das will bring the link of Damdami Taksal also that why is it part of Adi Guru Darbar.But das here is giving his own explanation as he understand by his tuchh budhi(inferiror mind).

    It is possible that it may not be liked by schoolars so if that is so das is sorry in advance.

    The fact there is that Jthedar of Takhat Patna Sahib issued Tankha to prof Gurdit Singh Ji regarding similar matter which was later reissued by Akal Takhat.His(Jathedar's) logic is in book Shabad Guru.

    Das is giving disclaimer that das has nothing to do with there views but they are personal views of DAs.

    Das may agree that it is by poet Alam.It may be something to do with Ragas used in prositutes brothal.As there are many Ragas in which Gurubani is sung are also used by prostitutes in kothas(Brothals).So why should a Sikh have faith in it. Or why should it be in Adi Guru Granth Sahib.Das attach no value of miralce to any Sabad's singing till its meaning is not known.

    Das is infact not averce to any idea that it should not read or not read in Akahnd path.

    But it has to be seen in earlist versions of copis of Damdami beers kept in Takhats of Hazur Sahib or Patna Sahib or the oldest copy of the same kept in Damdama Sahib(this is shown to the general public on Vaishaki day).There Carbon dating can be done to know how old are they if they are from the time of Baba Deep Singh Ji or Bhai Mani Singh Ji(They were aware of Gurmat better then prsent day schoolars).And if Raagmaala was there in it or not.

    but why das says that it is as per Gurmat.

    Gurmat always ask for reform.By will of Akal bigest sinner can be saved.In Guru Granth Sahib Ji also.There has been an instance that Akal even salvaged a Ganika({censored word, do not repeat.}) it is taken from Hindu mythology and may be false but aim here is to tell that no one is sinner.

    The way Sarangi(a musical instrument) which is used at prosititute's brothal can be utiliesed by Dhadis(Bard's of Akal) to give new life to dead souls.
    So do the raagas,which are rather used till then more for matterialitics pleasures were utilied by Gurus for spritual Salvation.Bani is devine weather read or sung or understood but Bani has power to what it say,

    Neeche Ooch Kare Mera Gobind(Das may have writtan it wrong so kindly rectify it).Akal makes lower to high.So Raagmaala as per das proves the power of Gurbani,which states that negitive luxuray oriented Ragas can be used in positive way.

    Das could be wrong in perception so forgive das for that.But Ragas of Sarboh Granth also are not as easy nor we could say about Ragas of Guru Granth Sahib Ji are as easy for anyone but one properly trained.But Ragas do have quality that ,by those tunes it is possilbe to change the mood or mental frame work of a person.Das love Rag Bhairav the most as it is to do with veer Ras.

    Das is also adding one more thing.Village people or even urbanite are often unaware of deep spirituality so they may be told to carry slow and sturdy update by varuoius similar symobols.Say in military(as Each and evey Sikh can become soldier anytime) often we are told to remain unquestioning to commander.Maybe that is the reason that to let there be a miliatary decipline in Sikhs unlike hindus who keep on abusing there own holy books that Jathedars have tried to impose Tankh of prof Gurdit Singh JI.

    Due to this reason Nihung of UK do not like das very much because Das himself has religious fanticism in his mind may be due to past of Bajrang Dal.But due to that only Das admires AKJ or DDT.Das does respect the views of others but even then it would have been better if there was debate on Raagmala then just declaring a schoolar a Tankha(Das heart does support Tankah but brain supports a debate).

    But religeon is nothing if only brain is to brought in else large part of Shri Guru Granth Sahib Ji also can be misinterpreted as Hindutva people are doing.
     
  12. vijaydeep Singh

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    Ek Oankar Wahiguru Ji Ki Fateh

    Das also got some more work from Damdamitaksal on this issue.Anyway have look at it.Das may not agree to Rahit Maryada of Damdami Taksal Ji but does approve it for the members of it.

    So have look on issues supporting Ragmala.

    http://www.damdamitaksal.com/lit.htm
    Ragmala is Gurbani

    .....

    Das is again repeating that Das does respect Damdami Taksal but does not consider thier Maryada as one for whole Panth.As Das being Nirmala may not be following what they say.Or Say if Das is Amritdhari from sgpc then too Das may not follow it.But as said by Sant Jarnail Singh Ji Khalsa Bhindranwale that Amrit is Amrit be it from Taksal or be it from SGPC so as per taksal also of that time.All Sikhs are equal.Even if not abidning the code in uniform way.Say some eating meat while some do not.Some singing Raga while other doing Katha or other making Langer.There is a diversity in unity.
     
  13. Arvind

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    Vijay veer ji,

    With due regards to your sincere efforts, Labelling Amrit from different jathas doesnt make any sense to me. One may belong to different group as per individual choice (even that is unwarranted, but anyway), but Amrit got to be the same everywhere.

    Regards, Arvind.
     
  14. vijaydeep Singh

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    Gurfateh Parwan Ho!

    Bro Das support your views that Amrit is one irrespective of any Jatha and same were the views of Great Sikh Sant Jarnail Singh Ji Khalsa Bhindrawale.

    BUT Das is sorry to say that yes there are some Jathas which are rather more like Brahmanical in thier apporach that thier ritual is OK.

    As per Das Amrit is to unit Mankind and not to dived Sikhs.

    But What Das here was trying to convey is something differnt.Inspite of having differnt types of codes of conducts due to differnt situations.We all are same.

    This may even included those Sikhs who have not yet taken Amrit.But at least have Faith that Akal is thier Guru,Akal is thier God,Akal is in All.

    They may not have taken Amrit but may take it some day Akal willing.

    Das thinks that there was a bit of wrong presentation on the part of Das.Das just want to say that as Taksal is university so it has diffenrt roles so a bit differnt Marayad due to extra roles.But thayt is not for whole Panth like you and Das.And they (Taksal) also respected Amritdharis from main stream also.They still respect but there are some Jathas who do not.

    If you say Das did posted a detailed study on Taksal at sikhawreness.com yesterday only.If you want Das can bring it here also.
    Forgive Das if wrong is writtan.
     
  15. Arvind

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    haanji veer, I understand where u coming from.

    With pleasure, I look forward to the article you mentioned abt ur study on Taksal.
     
  16. vijaydeep Singh

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  17. UnstoppableSingh

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    Many people like to say that Raagmala isn't part of Gurbani and isn't part of Guru Granth Sahib Ji. But if we look at historical bhirs of Guru Granth Sahib Ji (ie Baba Deep Singh Jis hand written copy @ Harmandhir Sahib) Raagmala is included.

    My only question is do people honestly think they have a higher authority then someone like Baba Deep Singh Ji to remove any Bani.


    As for the Raags and Raagnis i personally believe they were people. I don't think they came to Guru Ji asking for respect or anything like that. I think Guru Ji was trying to explain some history and show a certain love because Raag is simply one form of love. Remeber in Guru Granth Sahib ji History of certain events are told. More so in the Dasam Granth Ji but also in Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

    P.S. This is my first POST!
     
  18. spnadmin

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    A person can take the part that the Zen masters call, wu wei, or go with the flow -- assuming no major breach of Guru Nanak's message is involved.

    Wu Wei A key principle in realizing our oneness with the Tao is that of wu-wei, or "non-doing." Wu-wei refers to behavior that arises from a sense of oneself as connected to others and to one's environment. It is not motivated by a sense of separateness. It is action that is spontaneous and effortless. At the same time it is not to be considered inertia, laziness, or mere passivity. Rather, it is the experience of going with the grain or swimming with the current. Our contemporary expression, "going with the flow," is a direct expression of this fundamental Taoist principle, which in its most basic form refers to behavior occurring in response to the flow of the Tao.

    "Going with the flow" is what we have in the current Sikh Rehat Maryada. "Article XI (a) of the Sikh Rehat Maryada (SRM): "The reading of the whole Guru Granth Sahib (intermittent or non-stop) may be concluded with the reading of Mundawani alone or the Rag Mala according to the convention traditionally observed at all the concerned places. (There is know difference of opinion within the Panth on this issue, nobody should dare to write or print a copy of the Guru Granth Sahib excluding the Rag Mala)."

    The statement does NOT delcare that raagmala is authentically a part of the Guru Granth. Rather it defers to local custom. In that way - given the rehat was crafted and approved through the years of 1915 through 1950 (final approval of the 1947 version) - a major rift in the panth was avoided.

    There are a number of good threads about this, and the early years of controversy, in the forum.

    A major review of the controversy was written by Madan Singh (attached). This article by Madan Singh has been uploaded several times at SPN. His conclusion is that Raagmala is not Gurbani. At the same time he argues that individual groups/jathas must not put themselves (including Baba Deep Singh) above the entire panth. The controversy he says should be resolved through collective effort.

    My personal view for what it is worth is that Raagmala should not be considered Gurbani.
     
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  19. spnadmin

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