Controversial Raagmala - Is It Really Part Of Gurbani?

[ActsOfGod]

i started with asking giani jee about page 1430 and he did not answer yet. but i am involved in this imaginary discussion please provide with your contribution to sggs, sikh religion, theology before we proceed further. i do not want to deal with people who read khalsa's translation and then ask questions and provide argument. i was raked over coals on this site by scholars before, regarding my translation of sggs. at that time i did not know where the people get the information and object to my explanation. now i know it.

In other words, you can't (or won't) provide the answer. Instead, you refuse to have a dialogue and choose to sidestep the issue.

The question was asked to reconcile the noted inconsistencies and you ignored the question. Is it because you don't have an answer?

Since you are discussing a matter related to what you call "sikh religion", please note that Guru Sahib always answered the questions that were put to them, to the satisfaction of the genuine inquirer. We are genuinely inquiring, since you appear to have positioned yourself as an expert on this issue.

Please do us all a favor and provide some discussion of real value.

[AoG]

 

[Ishna]

Swarn Ji, you were treated with respect and people tried to engage with you in the thread about your own translation of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji - I really do not know where your hostility comes from. I can't converse with you when you are so fixated and aggressive.

 

[swarn bains]

ishna jee thank u for ur answer. i receive this every day from your site by e mail. last time when the controversy arose about mool mantar. one gentleman sent me threatening e mail. i do not live in amritsar so you cannot scare me. whenever my answer is not acceptable to the questioner. he or she says that i have become aggressive and {censored}y . that is not a peaceful mind. a very quick logical question upon question to divert your own mind.
next will give you my opinion. it is a long answer how a i arrived at it. i am not aggressive all i am trying to put forward my own thinking. it will take time to explain. first i have question for you actofgod sir. why are u hiding your identity and i am not. do you think your questions are not aggressive. i will say that you read from the internet and put your side forward. it is not your own thinking. my logic to get into these controversial explanations is that ( may be someone will thing with hs own mind not read on the internet alone)
i have another very controversial issue that is how many writers wrote gurbani. it is not to incite someone but tell that he or she should read sggs seriously with intent.
mr sir let me know how many persons wrote sggs that will give incentive for u to read sggs
i will answer how i arrived at that

 

[swarn bains]

I was an ignorant man. I am an ignorant man. I did not know path I did not do path. I still do not do path.

I met a man 45 years ago, who guided me to think on this line of life. He impressed me and turned my mind towards his guidance. During that process he told me to read sggs. I did not have sggs but some how i acquired it and started reading slowly slowly. ( I do not keep it hidden because I read 4 pages every day. I also have respect for it but not the same way as many others have who hide it and never read it.) Then when I went to gurdwara for akhand path bhog. The readers read slok very slowly with rime and ritham, but when it came to raag maala they changed the speed. It broke my concentration. I started to think why they are doing it. So read and read the raaag maala till I remembered it all by heart. Then started to do that path every day which I still do.

I had an unfortunate encounter with some scholar about waaraan te wadheek page 1410.

This time I had the opportunity to read some translations. What found that bhai sahib singh has written that the woman says to her mother in law ( if she touches her feet; her breasts will touch the ground). Luckily it is written by the master of masters baba Nanak. Then I read this translation of sant singh khalsa, manmohan singh, talab. They all write the same thing. That means either they all think the same or copy from sahib singh. If this translation was provided by baba nanak then he would give the correct explanation. But all those who translate, they think with their own mind to the best of their ability. But it did not appeal to me. I thought it was wrong baba cannot say so. Then I thought and arrived at this

Baba says; a lady how can you respect your mother in law if you are not humble. You would not like it sir because you might have read sahib singhs version which many people think that he was the reincarnate of baba nanak. To them my explanation is wrong. So was the reason for the man who threatened me about my explanation of mool mantar. You put your opinion forward and I put mine. But it should be from your own mind. That gives incentive to dig deep into gurbani.

So I started to translate sggs in English. I worked for 16 hours a day for one year. Most of my explanation does not agree with bhai sahib singh or any other one. It was very difficult and got stuck. I tried for help.

I requested prof darshan singh. I talked to two profs who had M A in English, Punjabi and religion. They all told me that neither they will guide me nor anyone else will because you are an ignorant man. You have to have such degrees as they had to translate sggs. Somehow I struggled and completed it. With all that when someone reads on the internet and calls me aggressive and calls names, it hurts. The sggs is written by illiterate people like me who did not have degrees, and not by those who hold phd degree in religion. This was also questioned by the scholars last time. But that is my explanation with my own mind. Read salok pavan guru pani pita. It is different from all others. I have been questioned by such people.

During that time when I got tired I went for a walk for an hour. I always kept thinking about many topics which I could not understand well. So one day I started to think about raag maala during my walk. I remember it by heart and I started to contemplate the meanings. So I translated it in my mind and there were some words which I could not translate. I came home, I took out mahan kosh and found those words. This is how arrived at the meaning of raag maala. Till then I had not read anyone else’s explanation. I showed to some Punjabi phd types. Some did not like and others said it is very nice. It became part of my translation

Read this much and then put the question from your soul and mind not from reading from internet. Please do me a favour. It is very easy to put a question. I still have much to say. I will; after hearing from you .

once again, I want you and the others who run this site. To read sggs and tell how many people wrote sggs. It will give them incentive and knowledge as well.

 

[swarn bains]

I gave you enough time to digest and raise questions and now is the next part.


Those objected to my explanation they raised questions and then I looked at the translations of others including bhai sahib singh. Bhai sahib singh and McAuliffe put the most effort to translate. I admire them. The other scholars take advantage of the giddad parchi hanging on their head by going to universities and acquiring phds. The answers to any question come the way a person thinks. Right here there is an example of harkeerat kaur. She found God in nasa’s frequency waves. So it is ok. More to it. There are millions of mistake in my translation. That is why your questions arise. There are wives, sons and then there are 48 sons in their explanations of raag maala. Who are those 48 sons. You call yourselves actofGod, I feel you also call yourself the son of God. I do. Unfortunately I am a poet. That is how I arrived at whether eighteen, ten or twenty. It is done to resonate with the previous part of the stanza.

Then I found the controversy of raag maala.

Scholars against raag maala.

There two side of it. I will explain the first

Raag maal appeared in the writing of Aalm in the story of Madhavnal kaam kandla. This was first written by bhai jodh. It did not have raag maala in it. Then alam copied it and wrote raag maala in it. He lived around the same time as guru Arjun dev jee.

Alam included it in his book. Alams poetry is in chaupai; all of it. But at one point he says that madhav nal comes to meet kaam kandla. As he enters the boundry of kaam kandlas town he sings raag maala. There is no raag in alam,s book. Then where does he get this para full of raags. I will say that alam stole it from some where. I read that book I have it on old flopy as well. The person who wrote the big article that you read, says that it was kaam kandla singing the raag maal. I read the book, the book says that it is madhav nal who sings the raag maala. Something is fishy. Alam is used to stealing. So it is!

The second objection is

As you said. You read someonès explanation. It comes after mudavani, it has no numbering as in sggs. It does not have the same number of raags as in sggs. So it does not meet the criteria to be in sggs.

The objection comes from not having all above. Salok mahall 5 also comes after mudavani. So that nullifies the end of sggs explanation.

It does not have the same numbering system as the rest. It does not have the numbering system.

The last thing is that the raag maala has been written before also. Those who follow that philosophy say that it is not part of sggs, because the previous raag maalas explained the raags in it. it does not follow the raags in sggs. Once a man makes up his mind, the mind starts contemplating the same way. As you do.



The school in favour of raag maala

My mind says that guru Arjun dev jee wrote it, but after writing mudavani.so it is after mudavani. The numbering system if it is written after compiling the sggs. It is a small paragraph small subject, probably it did not need those numbering system. That is the reason why alam could steal it.

People who say it does not have all the raags.

I say it is an independent para. It does not deal with raags. Some raags are mentioned in order to admire God the way he thought it correct. Those who think that it should have all the raags in it, do not think with their mind. They cannot did deep and try to contemplate why is it in sggs. Everything in sggs is bani. Then why could raag maala not be bani. I thought it was bani that is why I went that deep in my mind to think and remember it

. All those who against it cannot think that hard, they do what you do. Though they may be called

Ganga singh, ganda singh jhanda singh.

If it is in sggs ; it has to be gurbani. Why is sunders bani in it. It does not explain anything divine. Why is satta and balwand’s writing in it. Except one stanza they only sing praises of guru’s wife. They refused to sing in congregation at one time and yet their writing is in it. Why? Once you start thinking that way; your mind starts to think that way.

I think it is written after slok mahalla 5 and it did not need that numbering. And added in the end as a master piece if u think it my way. All those who think otherwise, and they have libraries named after them, so be it. they are all social scholars, historians, read from somewhere and then write like many scholars who translated sggs calling God has 48 sons and put their seal because of their phd.

Let me put mudavani now. They are not spiritual people, simply people call them. They are historians.

Now I want you to be sincere and find faults in my explanation from your soul, all of you including giani jee, because that is where it all started. and answer back I will be very happy, but not reading someone wrote on the internet. They also read someone’s writing and claim their own. I want u to answer my question of how many people wrote sggs. It will give you the time to soul searching and learning and may be teach me something which I did not try to find. Then I will tell my version how many. Dig deep son dig deep?

You asked me questions, taunted me. I gave you the answers to the best of my ability. Now I want to ask you. What is your name why are u using artificial name. are you a scholar or just fishing the internet for killing time and hunt people with strong remarks to either give in or answer your questions.

Now a question for the organizers or the owners of this site

. I am a poet. I write sufi or spiritual poetry in Punjabi. After resolving the above amicably. With your permission can I put some Punjabi poems on this site. Please!

God bless the creation my friends.

 

[ActsOfGod]

Then I found the controversy of raag maala.

Scholars against raag maala.

There two side of it. I will explain the first

Thank you for finally answering the questions. You're quite long winded, but at least you eventually got to the point.

Raag maal appeared in the writing of Aalm in the story of Madhavnal kaam kandla. This was first written by bhai jodh. It did not have raag maala in it. Then alam copied it and wrote raag maala in it. He lived around the same time as guru Arjun dev jee.

Alam included it in his book. Alams poetry is in chaupai; all of it. But at one point he says that madhav nal comes to meet kaam kandla. As he enters the boundry of kaam kandlas town he sings raag maala. There is no raag in alam,s book. Then where does he get this para full of raags. I will say that alam stole it from some where. I read that book I have it on old flopy as well. The person who wrote the big article that you read, says that it was kaam kandla singing the raag maal. I read the book, the book says that it is madhav nal who sings the raag maala. Something is fishy. Alam is used to stealing. So it is!

Quite interesting history.

The second objection is

As you said. You read someonès explanation.

I don't recall ever having said that I read someones explanation.

It comes after mudavani, it has no numbering as in sggs. It does not have the same number of raags as in sggs. So it does not meet the criteria to be in sggs.

The objection comes from not having all above. Salok mahall 5 also comes after mudavani. So that nullifies the end of sggs explanation.

Indeed it does. However, there is still an author signature to "Salok Mehla 5".

It does not have the same numbering system as the rest. It does not have the numbering system.

The last thing is that the raag maala has been written before also. Those who follow that philosophy say that it is not part of sggs, because the previous raag maalas explained the raags in it. it does not follow the raags in sggs. Once a man makes up his mind, the mind starts contemplating the same way. As you do.

Wait, are you saying that raag mala is not an original composition of Guru Sahib? You state "raag mala has been written before also". Who was the original author?

The school in favour of raag maala

My mind says that guru Arjun dev jee wrote it, but after writing mudavani.so it is after mudavani. The numbering system if it is written after compiling the sggs. It is a small paragraph small subject, probably it did not need those numbering system. That is the reason why alam could steal it.

To my mind, it seems doubtful that Guru Arjun Sahib would suddenly change the numbering system after compiling over a thousand pages of the Guru Granth Sahib under one system. It seems very incompatible, inconsistent, and unnecessary. Besides, the numbering system worked very well, there would be absolutely no need to modify or change it. One of the main reasons why Guru Sahib created the numbering system was to prevent anyone from tampering with the Bani.

People who say it does not have all the raags.

I say it is an independent para. It does not deal with raags. Some raags are mentioned in order to admire God the way he thought it correct. Those who think that it should have all the raags in it, do not think with their mind. They cannot did deep and try to contemplate why is it in sggs. Everything in sggs is bani. Then why could raag maala not be bani. I thought it was bani that is why I went that deep in my mind to think and remember it

Everything in SGGS is indeed Bani. But is Raagmala in SGGS or was it added by some third party afterwards?

If it is in sggs ; it has to be gurbani. Why is sunders bani in it. It does not explain anything divine. Why is satta and balwand’s writing in it. Except one stanza they only sing praises of guru’s wife. They refused to sing in congregation at one time and yet their writing is in it. Why? Once you start thinking that way; your mind starts to think that way.

Yes but their bani is credited with the author names, whereas the raagmala author remains anonymous.

ਰਾਮਕਲੀ ਕੀ ਵਾਰ ਰਾਇ ਬਲਵੰਡਿ ਤਥਾ ਸਤੈ ਡੂਮਿ ਆਖੀ
Rāmkalī kī vār rā▫e Balvand ṯathā Saṯai dūm ākẖī
Vaar Of Raamkalee, Uttered By Satta And Balwand The Drummer:

I think it is written after slok mahalla 5 and it did not need that numbering.

Why not? Why is it exempt from the system that was used to ensure that Bani remained safe from tampering and mischievious hands?

You asked me questions, taunted me. I gave you the answers to the best of my ability. Now I want to ask you. What is your name why are u using artificial name. are you a scholar or just fishing the internet for killing time and hunt people with strong remarks to either give in or answer your questions.

Mr. Swarn Bains, I am not a scholar or fishing the internet. I'm just an ordinary person trying to understand and learn. I did not taunt you (sorry if you felt that way). I have no agenda or particular pro- or against- stance. I'm just trying to learn the truth. Thanks for (finally) attempting to answer some of my questions.

As far as I can tell, you provided your personal opinion, but you did not prove definitively that raagmala is indeed Gurbani.

Thank you for taking your time to answer the questions to the best of your ability.

[AoG]

 

[swarn bains]

there are lot of questions you did not answer. give your own opinion not what someone else wrote.

 

[swarn bains]

you do not answer my questions and yet you want me to answer yours.. what is the reason. am i a pawn in your list to attack in the game of chess you are playing

 

[ActsOfGod]

I was an ignorant man. I am an ignorant man. I did not know path I did not do path. I still do not do path.

It's never too late to start.

 

[ActsOfGod]

there are lot of questions you did not answer. give your own opinion not what someone else wrote.

I don't have an opinion yet. I don't know whether Raagmala is Gurbani or if it the work of a third party who tampered with the contents of SGGS. That is why I am asking you questions, to gain a better understanding and insight into the matter.

When I have formed an opinion, I will surely share it.

[AoG]

 

[ActsOfGod]

you do not answer my questions and yet you want me to answer yours.. what is the reason. am i a pawn in your list to attack in the game of chess you are playing

Just because I asked you a few pointed questions, you take it to mean that I'm playing a game of chess using you as a pawn?

Questions are how we learn. If you don't believe me, watch any child. They will be filled with questions from morning till night. And the most common question they ask is, "Why?" They're not doing it to taunt their parents or insult them. They are trying to LEARN.

If you are not able to fulfill the role of a teacher, then please do not position yourself as an expert on controversial topics and then talk down to people as if they are beneath you in intelligence or in spirituality. You have absolutely no idea what the other persons kamai is.

Furthermore, yours is only one viewpoint among many. It is not the only viewpoint, so you must learn to respect other peoples views, even if you may disagree with them (just as you expect others to respect your views). For example, scroll back in the thread and read your comments regarding "blue frequency waves" and "computer age religion".

[AoG]

 

[swarn bains]

if it is not gurbani then the scholars like you should have taken it out. why not. it is in most of the sggs beers.
i do not know how the numbering system works. this might be the answer to your question.
here is the numbering at page 1409 after the sawayaas. ||2||21||9||11||10||10||22||60||143||
please explain it to me how it works. may be i will learn something from you. at least one reply

 

[Harkiran Kaur]

Swarn Ji, Here is my answer to how many wrote SGGSJ:

ONE.

In SGGSJ Ang 736 (paraphrased)

The director (God) stages the play, playing the parts of the many characters (ALL of us), wearing many different costumes. But when the play is over (when this world ends) and the costumes are removed (Ego identities gone), we see that ALL the characters were really the same ONE actor all along - more than that the actor (God) is also the director, having created the play to begin with.

So looking at it from this perspective, there is only ONE who could have written SGGSJ.... Akal Purakh.

 

[Harkiran Kaur]

if it is not gurbani then the scholars like you should have taken it out. why not. it is in most of the sggs beers.
i do not know how the numbering system works. this might be the answer to your question.
here is the numbering at page 1409 after the sawayaas. ||2||21||9||11||10||10||22||60||143||
please explain it to me how it works. may be i will learn something from you. at least one reply

I recently got to photograph up close a hand written bir of SGGSJ in Kashmir, from 1700's and it did, indeed contain the Ragmaala.

 

[ActsOfGod]

if it is not gurbani then the scholars like you should have taken it out. why not. it is in most of the sggs beers.
i do not know how the numbering system works. this might be the answer to your question.
here is the numbering at page 1409 after the sawayaas. ||2||21||9||11||10||10||22||60||143||
please explain it to me how it works. may be i will learn something from you. at least one reply

Once again, I'm not a scholar. I'm just an ordinary individual, as I stated before. Please refrain from making inaccurate statements.

As for your question, a quick Google search reveals:

https://www.sikhiwiki.org/index.php/Guru_Granth_Sahib_Numbering_System

 

[ActsOfGod]

I recently got to photograph up close a hand written bir of SGGSJ in Kashmir, from 1700's and it did, indeed contain the Ragmaala.

Would you be able to share the photographs? Very interested in seeing them.

[AoG]

 

[Harkiran Kaur]

Would you be able to share the photographs? Very interested in seeing them.

[AoG]

Posted in Sikhism forum!

 

[ActsOfGod]

Posted in Sikhism forum!

Thank you so much. It was wonderful to be able to see those pictures.

 

[Harkiran Kaur]

Thank you so much. It was wonderful to be able to see those pictures.

Seeing the handwritten bir in person AND getting to actually touch it... THAT was wonderful!!!

 

[swarn bains]

re numbering of raag maala. pratham raa bhero ve gave, dutia malkausic alapi, khastam megh raag ve gaave. so there are six raags and the numbers in it. as i wrote before about sawaias. it was the writing of many people. that is how that numbering came up. in this case it is one paragraph by one man and has its own kind of numbering. the complicated numbering does not fit here. the people on google whop wrote the numbers are also like u sir. i asked you two questions.
first your identity. you did not answer. second the number and the names of writers of sggs. you did not answer. how far you can go to argue without any input.
harkeerat kaur jee. thank u for your having photo of sggs. and your answer to my question. your answer is very good but it does have names of the writers. such as the following
guru nanak, guru Angad, guru Amar das, gur ram das, guru Arjun dev, guru Teg bahadur, guru Gobind singh and many others. my reasoning for asking is that all those who argue to the top of their hair may have a chance to read sggs seriously to find out. at the same time the scholars say it is written by 36 people. i counted and found different. may be actofGod or the owners of this site would read and write the name, the line number along with the number of stanzas to suffice the answer. thank u