Welcome to SPN

Register and Join the most happening forum of Sikh community & intellectuals from around the world.

Sign Up Now!

Questioning/Losing Faith...

Discussion in 'Questions and Answers' started by CuriousMan, May 5, 2014.

  1. CuriousMan

    CuriousMan
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer

    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2014
    Messages:
    6
    Likes Received:
    10
    Recently I've been questioning religion and whether it is true.

    I like Sikhism and what it stands for but I cannot get my head around some concepts.

    All religions were formed when people did not know a much about the universe and how it was created. I do still think that Guru Nanak was special because he did state that there were multiple planets, galaxies etc.
    He also said that the universe has been created and destroyed multiple times, which fits in with the Big Bang and Big Crunch theories.

    I have the following doubts.

    1. No religion has accurately explained the origin of life on Earth and backed it up with evidence.

    2. Why would God create things like Dinosaurs and so much before humans? If humans are the only ones that can achieve mukti, why waste time creating dinosaurs and other ancient animals, why not create humans as one of the first lifeforms. The sikh scriptures do not mention dinosaurs.

    3. You are born into a religion, if I was born 2000 years ago in Norway I would believe in Thor and Odin.

    4. Countries where religion plays a big part in people's lives like India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Middle East, Africa, South America are generally full of poverty. Whereas in places like Western Europe, Japan, religion is not important at all. Guess which countries are more successful and tolerant.

    5. Why was Guruship kept in the same family from Guru Ram Das onwards? I cannot imagine Guru Nanak giving the Guruship to a child like it was given to Guru Har Krishan or a child Guru Gobind. Even though these Gurus were great men who did a lot for us it seems like nepotism.

    6. Sorry if this offends people but Guru Nanak was against rituals, so why is it mandatory to drink Amrit, carry a kirpan, grow our hair.
    We say we grow our hair because we don't want to change the form God made us in. So if we are born with an illness do we just leave it or do we keep it? We are a continually evolving species and we may one day evolve into one that has no hair.

    7. Guru Nanak said if you're a Muslim be a good muslim, if you're a hindu be a good hindu, yet he criticised both religions. Even I can see that both religions have big problems. Islam with it's misogyny, violence, heaven and hell, virgins in heaven. Hinduism in it's belief in multiple gods, fairy tales, caste system. He should have been more critical.

    8. Why worship this creator. Maybe it exists but how do you know it wants us to worship it and think about it all of the time.

    9. Why has no religious 'prophet' discovered something amazing like Electricity or flying. These were supposed to be all knowing people but they did not help humanity in scientific advancement.

    10. People turn to God when things are down and when going through depression. I am guilty of this as well but as soon as the storm clears and my rational thought returns I return to doubt.

    11. There are so many religions in this world and most of them have only been around for 5000 years, whereas humans have been around a lot longer. People have worshiped all kinds of things throughout humanity, from the sun, to idols, demi gods, one god and now worshiping no god is rising.

    12. They could have sent out a big message by giving the guruship to a lower caste person, rather than keeping it in the high Khatri caste. They could have married out of caste. It would have sent out an even bigger message.

    13. Karma system has flaws. So if you are bad you are given a bad next life, but who cares, it's not like you will remember it. I think it's downright cruel to say that disabled people are born that way because of bad karma. Why don't we just stop helping the poor people, after all it is due to bad karma that they are born that way.
    Generally the more money people have the more they succumb to vices, so
    is it better to be born poor and believe in god or be born into a rich family where you are more likely do 'bad things'

    14. Reincarnation. There are lines in the SGGS that if you think of your family in your last breath you will come back as a pig. Well then I guess a huge proportion of people who die come back as pigs because that is what a lot of people think of when they die. Why is it wrong to think of your family when dying?

    15. Yugas make no sense. We are supposed to believe in the yugas and we are supposed to be in Kalyug. Yet in the last 100 years we have seen the most advancement in human history compared to any other time in humanity. We are supoosed to believe that people lived a lot longer in the past, like for hundreds of years. I highly doubt this is true.


    Sorry if this offends people but I cannot live with this confusion.
    I think there is some kind of higher power but no religion has explained it. No one can truly know until they die.

    Can anyone answer these questions/doubts.
     
    • Like Like x 6
  2. Loading...

    Similar Threads Forum Date
    DEVELOPMENT OF INTERFAITH DIALOGUE BY GURU NANAK Interfaith Dialogues Nov 30, 2016
    Interfaith Meet At Gaya -Concepts Discussed Interfaith Dialogues Nov 30, 2016
    Interfaith Meet At Gaya Interfaith Dialogues Nov 30, 2016
    Interfaith Religion In Sikhism Interfaith Dialogues Nov 30, 2016
    Khalsa Aid The Selfless Sikh Faith On The Frontline, A Documentary By BBC 2016 Sikh Organisations Nov 16, 2016

  3. Parma

    Parma United Kingdom
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer Supporter

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2007
    Messages:
    351
    Likes Received:
    262
    Re: Questioning/losing faith

    !
     
    • Like Like x 3
  4. CuriousMan

    CuriousMan
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer

    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2014
    Messages:
    6
    Likes Received:
    10
    Re: Questioning/losing faith

    Thanks for your reply brother. However with your answer to number 6 you make the latter Sikh gurus sound more political than spiritual.

    I thought the purpose of Sikhi is to end the cycle of rebirth and join with god, not just to find inner peace.

    I wonder that Guru Arjan Dev Ji, Guru Tegh Bahadur, Sahibzade were such great holy people who meditated a lot but they faced a gruesome demise. I thought by mediating such things could be avoided.

    I also sometimes think maybe Guru Nanak was a truly divine man and the Gurus after him although being great were not at the same spiritual level and introduced rituals.

    It would be great if these religious texts were just straight to the point without poetry and speaking in riddles.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  5. Parma

    Parma United Kingdom
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer Supporter

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2007
    Messages:
    351
    Likes Received:
    262
    Re: Questioning/losing faith

    Miri and Piri in Sikhism it is all there on how to run a civilized society they were spiritual and political, they are quiet often both the same thing learning how to live and administer life. Sikhism was one of the first systems to enshrine equal rights to females, the red cross, Free kitchen loads of concepts. You would have to take an in depth view into the religion really. God is indescribable in the Guru Granth Sahib ji it says even if I say thousands, and thousands of words in your honour they still would not be enough to describe you. It is a theory like you know the world exists but just one piece of land alone does not create the earth. Be at one with the earth, if you can sort of understand that theory then you will start understanding the concept of god, and how being at peace or being nice to the earth would then lead to a more fulfilling life for you I'm using the earth as an example god is greater then that so if you grasp and become one with the creator you gain a peace which no one can teach you it is a self fulfilling power of love.
    Just because you gain the power to understand doesn't mean you can stop all things. You gain knowledge to stop and do nearly anything but then you live by a code of morals the others do not adhere to so that is what stopped them really otherwise if they used there dark side of themselves there would have been no limit on there achievements, but they would be no better then the oppressors and then what was the point in them. Its like saying your bad, then going straight ahead and doing the same thing to resolve your issues they where men for humanity not self gain that was the real problem, if they only wanted self gain they would have ruled the world. When you gain so much knowledge nothing can stop you but god, they realised that knowledge and realised where it could take them, they did not come to take a lesson, they came to give a lesson. I wish I was born then for I would have stood side by side with such honest men to the end. Ordinary Men don't stand like that you see they stand for reason for themselves. Not honesty justice or truth, and that is why his kids where martyred, not enough honest people in the world, and it hurts, shame!
     
    • Like Like x 5
  6. Sherdil

    Sherdil
    Expand Collapse
    Writer SPNer Contributor

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2014
    Messages:
    438
    Likes Received:
    868
    Re: Questioning/losing faith

    0:)
     
    • Like Like x 5
  7. Ishna

    Ishna
    Expand Collapse
    On hiatus
    Writer SPNer Contributor

    Joined:
    May 9, 2006
    Messages:
    2,942
    Likes Received:
    5,002
    Re: Questioning/losing faith

    Hello CuriousMan, and welcome to SPN.

    It always puzzles me when people think religion = science. Science is science, and religion is religion. We don't apply the dramatic arts to dietary nutrition, so why do we try to apply religious philosophy to astrophysics?

    On that note...

    Why should religion? Perhaps it's best left to science.

    Because It can. Because evolution. Because it's fun to make jokes about T-rex's small arms. :D Sri Guru Granth Sahib is about spirituality/philosophy, not biological history. Dinosaurs simply weren't considered relevant to talk about.

    What is the question here? People are born into cultures, and religion is part of culture. Sometimes people reject the religion of their culture and seek others.

    Again I think this is more to do with culture than religion. If we consider the period in history when the Islamic civilization reached across southern Europe, I understand it was a very high standard of living (for the times). I'm not convinced of the link between religion and poverty.

    I can't answer this one.

    For discussions of kesh you're best searching the forum for the threads that have already done the topic upside down, inside out and back-to-front.

    Regards to rituals, I agree with you. When looking at Sikhi we see the turmoil in Panjab at the time, and can understand why Sikhs had to be made distinct amongst the people. The Khalsa army has a solid, logical foundation. Nowadays I'm not so sure, but that's just my personal opinion. I look forward to other replies on this particular question.

    I'm not one to tell Guru Nanak what he should or shouldn't have done. :)

    To my mind, Guru Nanak wasn't inventing a new religion, he was stripping life down to the basic core truths, and these are common to all people, no matter what their outward religion is. Guru Nanak was expressing a philosophy and a state of mind based on his understanding of life and the Creator.

    It's about human needs, not the Creator's needs. Why do you think about the person you love all the time?

    They have discovered amazing things in their field of spirituality, philosophy, religion, psychology, social sciences. :)

    When was the last time a science professor invented a way to better manage Post Traumatic Stress Disorder? (random example only)

    Because it's human nature to reach out for something when you feel like you're losing control. Some people find comfort in faith. Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji talks about the problem of forgetting when everything is good again, which is why we need to remind ourselves, which helps us to prepare for the next storm in this whirlwind of life.

    Yep. So is "spiritual but not religious". Humans still have fuzzy psychological needs that religions and philosophies address. To me, being in connection with what I believe in is important to me and Sikhi provides the necessary framework.

    Yes. I guess they did what they did for their own reasons. Like it would have been nice to have some bani by a female bhagat, but oh well.

    Yes, karma as you've put it is an odd system, and you won't find much argument for this interpretation of karma in Sikhi!!! Please check out some of our other threads on karma and you'll find the concept redrawn if not entirely thrown out in the Gurbani.

    See reply to question 13 but -karma +reincarnation.

    Yugas are states of mind, not physical time periods.

    Sorry I can't be more wordy, I've run out of lunch break!
     
    • Like Like x 7
  8. Harry Haller

    Harry Haller United Kingdom
    Expand Collapse

    Moderator

    Writer SPNer Contributor

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2011
    Messages:
    5,122
    Likes Received:
    7,948
    Re: Questioning/losing faith

    I do not speak for Sikhism, only myself, so the following is my own opinion rather than a definitive answer

    Sikhism is not a religion, it is a way of life, as my sis says above, best left to scientists

    Firstly, you mention god in the abrahamic sense, as a bearded fellow in sandals who goes about creating stuff and destroying stuff, that is not my view, in Sikhism god is an energy, a force, and is in us all, and in everything. 'god' merely set the game in motion, the game itself is down to us, down to evolution, and the state of the world is once again down to us and how the game has been played. I do not believe we are here to achieve mukti, I believe that every day we get the chance to be in mukti, that is our choice.

    No one is born a Sikh, anyone who is, I find, struggles with the basic foundations of Sikhism due to lack of knowledge and ignorance, most of the people I consider to be knowledgeable about Sikhism were either attracted to it later in life, or born Sikhs who then rejected the Vedic/Abrahamic nonsense they were brought up with and attempted to search for the truth.


    Ask your average Hindu how many gods they have, they are likely to say 'quite a few', ask your average Muslim about heaven they may talk about virgins serving food and huge palaces, and ask your average Sikh, they are likely to say that Sikhism is a mix of Hinduism and Islam, all three answers are wrong, Hindus ultimately believe in one God, Muslims believe heaven to be a place of bliss, and use palaces as a metaphor, and Sikhism has nothing to do with either Islam or Hinduism, so, the East is not very religious at all, just very traditional and ritualistic.

    Maybe age is no indication of wisdom, maybe even a child can grasp the very simple notion that god is around us and in everything, and that we live to serve Creation.One does not have to be aged with white hair to know the answers, maybe Sikhism is so simple that anyone at all can grasp the foundations.

    It is not mandatory, the SRM, the handbook to being a Sikh, describes a Sikh in very simple terms

    The Definition of Sikh :

    Article I
    Any human being who faithfully believes in
    i. One Immortal Being,
    ii. Ten Gurus, from Guru Nanak Sahib to Guru Gobind Singh Sahib,
    iii. The Guru Granth Sahib,
    iv. The utterances and teachings of the ten Gurus and
    v. the baptism bequeathed by the tenth Guru, and who does not owe allegiance to any other religion, is a Sikh

    The tenth Guru took this to another level, the Khalsa, the true, a bit like the A team, or the SAS, and with every elite organisation, they need to be visual, people need to know who they are, now some people can go on about why hair, why kirpan etc etc, for me, the fact that the tenth Guru thought it was a good idea is enough for me, do I have long hair and a kirpan, no I do not, but when that day comes when it feels like a good idea, I will embrace it, but not for myself, for the people round me to know that this fellow is Khalsa, he can help us, be it changing a tyre, feeding a beggar, defending a rape victim, whatever, that fellow over there, in the turban and beard, he will help, he is Khalsa, now what gets my goat are the many that look like Khalsa but are none of the sort, that is why, in my opinion, you cannot aspire to be Khalsa, merely accept the challenge when the time is right.

    By the time most Sikhs have found the answers, they find the calling to grow hair, wear a kirpan, it is done with love and happiness, not foisted on you, or done for reasons of ego and pride.

    Guru Nanak believed in the 'one' just like all other religions, however time has corrupted, and people are mired in ritual and habit, to my mind he never criticised anyone, merely showed people that they were drifting away from the one, and into fable and stories, all he did was hold up a mirror and ask people who they were, delve deeper into both religions and you will see that all the above facets you mention can be construed as red herrings, a Hindu and a Muslim contributed to the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.....

    Err I don't, and neither do I pray, the Creator that I see in everyone and everything speaks to me and interacts with me every day, I do not need to mumble in quiet rooms, or bow to pictures, or take a random quote from the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and live my day by it, all the quotes in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji are good, the key is learning what is in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and living by it, Creator does not suffer from an ego, Creator does not wish to be worshipped, Creation should be respected and a consonance should be reached with all Creation. I do not think of Creator at all, however, Creation is in front of my very nose, I can interact with this at any time.

    I cannot speak for other prophets, but Sikh prophets never made out to be all knowing, they were all accepting maybe, and they knew the limits of what a human being could know, all perceptive, and all knowing about the human condition, they knew about living, about interacting and about how to play the game of life. They left the rest to the scientists and the artists.

    Not me, I find truthful living gives you better circumstances so that depression is sidestepped, most depression is down to seeds we sow ourselves, instead of dealing with bad crops, simply stop planting bad seeds, for things that happen to you that have nothing to do with you, then acceptance is the key, acceptance of situation? no, acceptance of the fight to deal with the situation. Depression does not hep anyone, that is why as Sikhs we embrace Chardi kala, high spirits, optimism, belief in ourselves, belief that the truth will win, will vanquish, and if it does not, then we will die trying.

    worshipping no god is good, that works for me

    Sikhism is not about sending out messages like some latter day spin doctor, it is simply about the truth

    Sikhs don't believe in the karma system, when your dead, your dead

    Sikhs don't believe in reincarnation, when your dead, your dead, the pig quote needs to be contemplated further, but that is for another thread.

    Sorry I don't even know what a yuga is, are we supposed to believe in them? are they more important than truthful living and thinking? am I missing something huge in Sikhism?,

    no there is no kind of higher power, no it is pointless begging this higher power for treats, in Sikhism there is only the truth, thats it, either live by it, or don't, its that simple
     
    • Like Like x 7
  9. angrisha

    angrisha
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer

    Joined:
    Jun 24, 2010
    Messages:
    95
    Likes Received:
    231
    Re: Questioning/losing faith

    As you can already see there are many different answers to all your questions, and all of them are equally correct.

    Science hasnt done this either, and Ive never really understood why this was necessary to my life currently...

    IMO this idea of God as a creator like your describing is a very Abrahamic religious view. I.E god created the world in 7 days kind of idea. Why things happened the way they did, I dont think it really matters... all life comes from one source, no one is above or below any other life form... we all just are, apart of the same universe. Personally, as Ive processed my own life I envy animals because they are always simply connected and they dont have all the extra mental noise we humans do.

    And that would be perfectly fine.... you can also be born with out religion....


    I feel like this has been answered well by others.... I dont thinK i have anything more to add

    I dont think age really matters when it comes to your soul.... being in an older body doesnt mean you are any more enlightened than a 3 year old. Sometimes, kids are even more true to themselves than adults area. The faith in the guruship comes from the very foundation of sikhism.... its all with in hukam ....

    I dont think drinking Amrit is a ritual, I think its more of a deceleration to be committed to a sikhi. Once you take Amrit you are choosing to follow and live life a certain way. I heard an explanation of why we done the 5 K's.... its not even so ppl can see us and recognize someone as an sikhi, but because through these symbols we can be reminded of the presence of SatGuru who is always with us. Again, all of this worn outside your body, and none of it goes with you in the end... So it can be argued that ultimately it doesn't matter.

    I also read something on this very forum about kesh (and forgive me i dont remember the exact words or who said it), where they compared hair growing to hukam in the sense that why fight the growth its going to come back anyways.

    Illness also has medicine, where you body can be healed of (or not depending on the illness).... illness is something that can be changed and is contained with in your body... kesh on the other hand really has no need to be changed.... it is not something that needs to be healed ... if you keep it or not is really up to you....



    In my belief of what I read, if you choose to live your life in accordance with a particular faith then you should follow that faith well. Critism isnt of the religion, but the necessity of rituals (rituals have there place if done with meaning and intention, but empty rituals are just that empty). GuruJi states there is no one path to follow.... if you in your heart align yourself with a particular faith follow it well with in your heart.

    I can comment on what I think Guru Nanak was thinking, only what I believe to be true.

    You dont need to worship anything, I dont understand this concept of worship either. You also dont need to think about the 'creator' all the time.... In my mind, God is within everything and anything and that includes you. At its core, there is nothing to think about.....

    I dont understand why this was a requriment of anyone.... why havent any of us helped in scientific advancement?
    Just as there are very significant ppl in spiritual/religious realms, we have also been gifted with very significant ppl in the scientific realm.... neither one is more or less important in the advancement of humanity.... if anything they go hand in hand with each other

    The SGGS teaches us (or at least me) that there is a place beyond this duality, that the highs and lows of life are all with in our perspective of the situation. There is a place where no matter what happens we stay perfectly content. But, my question to you is... if something is true for you in your lows why would it suddenly not be in your highs? Maybe your actually not turning to God but running from the fear of failure....

    There is a difference between religion and God... majority of people believe that there is an expression of something greater than themselves. Religion, worship and God get lumped together when they are very very different concepts. You do not need one to have the other 2.

    How did any of that actually affect the message

    I dont claim to understand the laws of Karma, I dont actually think karma exists. My understanding of what ive read, karma is simply action and reaction... the sggs speaks of a realm above that as well so therefore we are not bound by our actions. Perspective plays a large role, you only can control your actions and how you choose to be in this world in a day to day way.... I do not have the ability to judge or criticize anyone else way of life, I dont think there is any better or worse than it just is.

    Please quote what you are describing..... I again don't know about reincarnation, im not convinced I believe in it either.... so I wont comment
    Yugas are an vedic concept from what I get... im not sure where you get your 'supposed' to believe in from because ive never been taught that....

    Yugas often get broken down into time periods, as if they were concrete chunks of time.... The best explanation ive heard for what a Yug actually is or what it means came from a Gani in philly. He said that its about your state of mind, if you stayed connect with Sat Guru than no matter what period of time you are in you will always be within sat yug, if you loose your connection then you will be with in kaliyug regardless of what actual period of time your in.

    There is no guarantee you'll know even when you die... all you can control is this moment right now... and honestly concern yourself with how you live in this moment.... worrying about the rest isnt necessary.
     
    • Like Like x 6
  10. CuriousMan

    CuriousMan
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer

    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2014
    Messages:
    6
    Likes Received:
    10
    Re: Questioning/losing faith

    Thank you all for your answers but for some of them I think, have you even read the SGGS?

    Karma and reincarnation are the fundamentals of Sikhi.
    Some of you are saying there is no reincarnation and some are saying there is no god.
    Seems like you have a very liberal interpretation of bani.

    There is a passage in SGGS where it explains how in previous incarnations who were this species and that species now this is the chance to meet god because you have finally achieved human incarnation you can be free from the cycle of birth and death.
    Reincarnation and rebirth have been mentioned so many times in SGGS.

    Bani constantly mentions that this human life is the chance to end the rebirth cycle.

    Sikhi does not simply believe when you die that's it. If you don't believe in reincarnation then I don't think Sikhi is the religion for you.

    There are also lines stating - how can you forget god, the one who created you.
    So believing in god is again very much a part of Sikhi. This isn't buddhism.

    Some of you all make it sound like Guru Nanak was just a highly philosophical man rather than a 'messenger' of god. Maybe that is true and that makes me wonder why should I just follow what another man says rather than make my own decisions and use my own judgement.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  11. Ishna

    Ishna
    Expand Collapse
    On hiatus
    Writer SPNer Contributor

    Joined:
    May 9, 2006
    Messages:
    2,942
    Likes Received:
    5,002
    Re: Questioning/losing faith

    You may like to review threads about Reincarnation:
    http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/quest...-believe-in-reincarnation-transmigration.html

    http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-...rt-for-the-concept-reincarnation-sikhism.html

    And about karma:
    http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/questions-and-answers/39836-in-gurbani-is-it-karma-actions.html

    http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/controversies/39975-why-is-the-law-karma-rejected.html

    http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/controversies/38889-life-is-easier-without-karma-discussion.html

    This article by Dr Baldev Singh may also give good perspective: http://sikhbulletin.com/Bulletins/SikhBulletinJanFeb2009.pdf

    You are free to read Gurbani and reach your own conclusions, as many do.

    Perhaps, but the next question is, how does the Gurbani define the Thing which you've translated as "God"?

    No one is asking you to. In fact, Gurmat demands that you use your very own noodle to work things out. That's one of the most pleasing dimensions of Sikhi, it asks you to question and seek for yourself. It gently guides, it doesn't spoon feed you like some other religions. This is a good thing.

    Also, in the same way we listen to and respect learned teachers, professors, scientists, we can learn from great men of philosophy like Guru Nanak.
     
    • Like Like x 5
  12. Parma

    Parma United Kingdom
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer Supporter

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2007
    Messages:
    351
    Likes Received:
    262
    Re: Questioning/losing faith

    How can you talk about something you don't know about. So he must have been a messenger of god. Its a miracle to find people of that calibre and that is why he is so revered and it is the definition of the creator and people who are god realised human beings that causes arguments in these situations, if you gave guidance on something that great like Guru Nanak did, I would call him like a father to me I can only have great love and respect for his thoughts as they showed me a realization of God.
     
    • Like Like x 4
  13. Ishna

    Ishna
    Expand Collapse
    On hiatus
    Writer SPNer Contributor

    Joined:
    May 9, 2006
    Messages:
    2,942
    Likes Received:
    5,002
    Re: Questioning/losing faith

    Parma ji, thank you! This is a gem! :kaurhug:
     
    • Like Like x 4
  14. Harry Haller

    Harry Haller United Kingdom
    Expand Collapse

    Moderator

    Writer SPNer Contributor

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2011
    Messages:
    5,122
    Likes Received:
    7,948
    Re: Questioning/losing faith

    Which one are you? the questioning potentially faithless or the expert?

    that is a very definitive statement, I am sorry to burst your bubble, but many disagree with you, my sis has given links to some.

    again are you here to further your understanding or give us a lesson?

    Passages in the SGGS need to be taken in context with the rest of the shabad, one liners can be misleading, if your looking for surface answers that is easy enough, if you are looking for the gems, you will have to look harder, think harder,

    I believe that to refer to personalities not physical death

    again, please make a choice, are you student or teacher?

    One can normally tell a genuinely interested person who has a genuine desire to find out more, from someone simply playing a game, your writings indicate the latter....
     
    • Like Like x 4
  15. CuriousMan

    CuriousMan
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer

    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2014
    Messages:
    6
    Likes Received:
    10
    Re: Questioning/losing faith

    Well how about these lines from the SGGS:

    P4
    But when the intellect is stained and polluted by sin,
    it can only be cleansed by the Love of Naam.
    Virtue and vice do not come by mere words;
    actions repeated, over and over again, are engraved on the soul.
    You shall harvest what you plant.
    O Nanak, by God’s Command, we come and go in reincarnation.

    P19
    Some are very knowledgeable,
    but if they do not know the Guru, then what is the use of their lives?
    The blind have forgotten Naam.
    The self-willed manmukhs are in utter darkness.
    Their comings and goings in reincarnation do not end;
    through death and rebirth, they are wasting away.



    P124

    Without the Shabad, there is only darkness within.

    The genuine article is not found, and the cycle of reincarnation does not end.
    The key is in the hands of the True Guru; no one else can open this door.
    By perfect destiny, He is met.



    P524

    Enduring pleasure and pain, drowned in the great ocean of doubt, you shall wander in numerous reincarnations.

    You have lost the jewel of human birth by forgetting God; when will you have such an opportunity again?
    You turn on the wheel of reincarnation, like an ox at the oil-press; the night of your life passes away without salvation.
    Says Kabeer, without the Name of the Lord, you shall pound your head, and regret and repent.




    P900
    Slandering others, you are totally ruined; because of your past actions, you shall be consigned to the womb of reincarnation.
    Your past actions will not just go away; the most horrible Messenger of Death shall seize you. 2.
    You tell lies, and do not practice what you preach. Your desires are not satisfied - what a shame.
    You have contracted an incurable disease; slandering the Saints, your body is wasting away; you are utterly ruined.

    Now how can there be any doubt on Sikhi's views on reincarnation.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  16. Sherdil

    Sherdil
    Expand Collapse
    Writer SPNer Contributor

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2014
    Messages:
    438
    Likes Received:
    868
    Re: Questioning/losing faith

    Your looking at gurbani like an instruction manual. It's a poem. It's full of metaphors and references drawn from different sources, but framed in a new context. Mukti (Moksha) in the Hindu sense means freedom from the circle of life and death after you die. In Sikhi, we believe that we can attain Mukti while alive. We don't have to wait until death. We call this Jivan Mukti. So what happens after this life is inconsequential to us. For all intensive purposes, now is our one and only chance.

    It is generally the rule of this forum to paste the entire shabad, with the Gurmukhi part included, so that we can appreciate the tuks within their full context. Also, this allows us to check if the translations are accurate, as some meaning is lost when going from Gurmukhi to English.

    So why reference it at all? Why not? The majority of the Indian population believed in reincarnation. They believed in empty rituals and superstitions as a means to achieve liberation from this cycle. This was also used as a means of social control. The gurus said that the real way to break from this cycle is to be truthful and contemplate on the divine. Truthful thought and truthful action makes a truthful person. That's what is meant by cleansing the soul, in the first quote you referenced.

    So belief in reincarnation does not make or break your Sikhi. Either way you look at it, guru ji is telling you not to waste this precious human life.

    I have always seen it like adults telling children they will end up on Santa's naughty list if they misbehave. There is no Santa or a naughty list, but the intent is to get the children to behave, by using references they understand.
     
    • Like Like x 4
  17. CuriousMan

    CuriousMan
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer

    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2014
    Messages:
    6
    Likes Received:
    10
    Re: Questioning/losing faith

    Engrossed in the intoxication of sexual desire and anger, people wander through reincarnation over and over again.”


    Those who do not become Gurmukh do not understand the Naam; they die, and continue coming and going in reincarnation.”


    Practicing falsehood again and again, people come and go in reincarnation, and forfeit their honour.”


    Every katha I've listened to says Reincarnation is a fundamental belief in Sikhi.
     
  18. Sherdil

    Sherdil
    Expand Collapse
    Writer SPNer Contributor

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2014
    Messages:
    438
    Likes Received:
    868
    Re: Questioning/losing faith

    You didn't read what I wrote. You need to post the full shabadh, with page number, along with the Gurmukhi so we can verify the translation.

    If humans are the highest form of incarnation, then tell me what is the lowest form? Does gurbani mention that? What form of animal is directly under humans?

    That's why it is not a literal reference.

    Even if I play Devil's advocate and say Sikhs do believe in reincarnation, it doesn't change how a Sikh is meant to live their life. That's why many Sikhs believe it is not integral to Sikhi.
     
    • Like Like x 4
  19. kds1980

    kds1980 India
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2005
    Messages:
    4,504
    Likes Received:
    2,738
    Re: Questioning/losing faith

    There are many versions of Sikhi.Just follow the one which you like , if not satisfied create your own
     
    • Like Like x 2
  20. Ishna

    Ishna
    Expand Collapse
    On hiatus
    Writer SPNer Contributor

    Joined:
    May 9, 2006
    Messages:
    2,942
    Likes Received:
    5,002
    Re: Questioning/losing faith

    Reiterating Sherdil bhaji's kind explanation about how to reference shabads, it's also part of SPN's Terms of Service.

    Post full shabads, in Gurmukhi and with English translations, please.

    A good site to use is www.srigranth.org. You can easily copy/paste the relevant shabads from that site with Gurmukhi and English.

    Thank you
     
    • Like Like x 2
  21. Abneet

    Abneet
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer

    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2013
    Messages:
    281
    Likes Received:
    311
    Re: Questioning/losing faith

    Some like parts the GSS and others don't like some parts like reincarnation and question the GGS itself. They are entitled to their own opinions.

    Guru Nanak was a prophet. He came at a time where Muslims and Hindus were doing all sorts of crazy rituals in India. Religion was very distorted at the time I believe. So of course Guru Nanak came onto this world with Divine knowledge to enlighten us all about the Truth. He indeed was a prophet. The examples of the lives of the 10 Gurus are prime examples of Living Truthfully. Moreover, people want proof of miracles in order too see as one as a prophet. But those people don't understand its more about His teaching.
     

Share This Page