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Grammer / Vyakarn Prof Maninderpal Singh of Gurmat Gyan Missionary College on Gurbani Grammar

Discussion in 'Language, Arts & Culture' started by Gyani Jarnail Singh, Nov 18, 2012.

  1. Gyani Jarnail Singh

    Gyani Jarnail Singh Malaysia
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    #1 Gyani Jarnail Singh, Nov 18, 2012
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2012
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  3. Gyani Jarnail Singh

    Gyani Jarnail Singh Malaysia
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  4. Gyani Jarnail Singh

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  5. Gyani Jarnail Singh

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  6. Gyani Jarnail Singh

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    You will learn so much it will change the way you look at WORDS which you thought are all the same....GUR-SIKH comes in so many different ways with different meanings..you will Never again say GURSIKH is just a Guru ka Sikh and is the same word..its NOT !!
     
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  7. Gyani Jarnail Singh

    Gyani Jarnail Singh Malaysia
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    Bhagat Ji,
    I would say listen to Prof Maninderpal singh ji...he explains it all in very simple Punajbi...its difficult to explain in writing...maybe later I will try and get the written examples translated..but for now I also am still listneing to the videos and learning myself.. ( an example from English would be the K in KNIFE...its silent but visible..in GURBANI there are many INVISIBLE..but pronounced..many VISIBLE..but not pronounced...its all INTERNAL EVIDENCE based Grammar.
     
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  8. BhagatSingh

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    Yeah that was a premature question. I am enjoying his lectures. This is a great resource! This is what I need to take a my Gurbani readings to the next level.
     
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  9. prakash.s.bagga

    prakash.s.bagga
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    If one looks at th rule as
    they are Grammar Markers....Singular+Male Nouns have Aunkarrs..Plural/Female Nouns DONT have Aunkarrs !! etc etc etc..listen carefully

    Then the word GURSIKH is Female /PLURAL Noun
    How this can be taken to mean as GuRu Ka Sikh

    then what should be the meaning of the word GURSIKHu (with matra of Aukad under Kh) which is SINULAR -Male NOUN word.?

    Prakash.S.Bagga
     
  10. BhagatSingh

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    Prakash ji,
    He said Gur is a masculine singular. So would be written as Gur(u) but this is not grammatically correctly when we want to say Gur ka Sikh. Gur(u) ka Sikh is wrong. The correct is Gur Ka Sikh, in short Gursikh.

    He illustrates his point with this tuk:
    ਕੇਸੋ ਗੋਪਾਲ ਪੰਡਿਤ ਸਦਿਅਹੁ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਕਥਾ ਪੜਹਿ ਪੁਰਾਣੁ ਜੀਉ ॥

    He says the this is not talking about Puran's Katha rather katha of God. Because Puran has Aunkad. He also said this isn't talking about Keso Gopal the Pandit.

    But Puran, a noun, with Aunkad is a Masculine Singular without a preposition in the verse. It says "Katha of Hari", not "Katha of Puran". The verse says "Katha of Hari i.e. Puran Jio".

    So the translation reads in two ways:
    1. Call Keso Gopal, the Pandit, to read the tales of Hari, the Puran Jio.
    OR
    2. Call the Pandits (the worshippers) of the long-haired Gopal, the Cow Herder, to read the tales of Hari, the Puran Jio.

    Apparently there was such a person as Keso Gopal. Also Keso Gopal never appears in Guru Granth Sahib as a name of Hari. So #1 is more accurate.

    Did I miss something in his way of translating?
     
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    #9 BhagatSingh, Nov 19, 2012
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  11. prakash.s.bagga

    prakash.s.bagga
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    Bhagat Singh Ji,

    Pl refer to the point being mentioned by your goodself as
    He said Gur is a masculine singular

    No. He says that the word Pricipally the word GuR is PLURAL Female Gender as the word is withour Aukad.
    He is assuming this GuR as GuRu as Masculine Gender.So he says GuR as GuRu

    My understanding is if the word GuR is Plural Female Gender why it should be given the meaning accordingly.? What should be need for making assuption for this wors as to be understood as GuRu Masculine Gender?

    One should rather understand that any word is Either Singular or PLural Number irrespective of the Gender then one can get better and true understanding of the meanings of Gurbanee words.

    One should make the understanding of Gurbanee Gender free then get the
    meanings accordingly.There is great difference in the complete nessage on account of such understanding.

    Prakash.s.Bagga
     
    #10 prakash.s.bagga, Nov 19, 2012
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  12. Gyani Jarnail Singh

    Gyani Jarnail Singh Malaysia
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    let alone Gurbani..PUNJABI langauge itslef is NOT "Gender free"...Chah is PEETEE and DUDH is PEETAH....lassee peetee..dhanih KHADHA....roti Khadhee..Ladoo KHADHA !!! barfee khadhee, jalebi khadhee..golgappa KHADHA..samosa Khadaha..Pizza Khadah..Tmatar khadha, alloo khadha..moolee KHADHEE !!! Gajar khadhee..ganna chuupiah, dhudh chunghiah..GAAN CUNGHEE !! Maajh Chunghee... GENDER is so INGRAINED in our Langauge and culture..we cannot take it out...GUTT Keetee JOORRAH KEETAH settles it..when BOTH are KESH !!! why the Gender difference ?? IN English both would say..I made my joorrah and I made my gutt.

    PURAKH is Singular Male..how to make this Gender free ??
     
  13. Gyani Jarnail Singh

    Gyani Jarnail Singh Malaysia
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    I would suggest listening to ALL 16 videos..making notes and THEN discussing...
     
  14. prakash.s.bagga

    prakash.s.bagga
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    GIYANI JARNAIL SINGH Ji,
    Pl get me your answer to this as

    If the word PURAKH is SINGULAR MALE then what is its PLURAL MALE word?

    Prakash.S.Bagga
     
  15. prakash.s.bagga

    prakash.s.bagga
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    I have listened to all .But still there is confusion in the application of this gender cocept to the understanding of Noun words.

    As per gender consideration the word Gur is stated to be Plural/Female Gender as the word GuR is without Aukad under its last letter R

    Prakash.s.Bagga
     
  16. Gyani Jarnail Singh

    Gyani Jarnail Singh Malaysia
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    PURAKH ne chah peetee...PURKHAAN NE chah peetee. (Plural of Purakh) Banda..Bandian...Isteri..Isterian...Bhed..Bhedaan...thsi is how i change singualr to plural...
     
  17. BhagatSingh

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    Gur is Masculine Singular, not feminine, just like Purakh is masculine singular and not feminine. That's all I have to say.

    Both Gur and Purakh refer to the same thing wouldn't you say so Prakash ji?

    I think words should be considered to be masculine singular by default. Like Nirbhau, Nirvair. These are masculine singular. Chaturbhuj is also masculine singular. Oamkar is also masculine singular. (all without aunkad)

    ਨਿਰਭਉ ਨਿਰਵੈਰ ਅਥਾਹ ਅਤੋਲੇ ॥
    ਮੰਨੈ ਤਰੈ ਤਾਰੇ ਗੁਰੁ ਸਿਖ
    No Aunkad on Niravair, and there is an aunkad on Gur. Does this change the meaning? I don't think so but then again I am new to this kind of grammar, that is, IF it exists.
     
    #16 BhagatSingh, Nov 19, 2012
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  18. Gyani Jarnail Singh

    Gyani Jarnail Singh Malaysia
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    Maneeh treh..TAREH GURU Sikh...
    I take it as..

    IF (one) Manneh (beleives)..he is liberated....
    The one who TAREH..does/assists in the Liberation is the GURU and the one Liberated is the SIKH...thus GUR SIKH is TWO WORDS and NOT ONE !! becasue its SEPARATED and the Marker that shows this is the AUNKADD under R of GUR.( IN Larivaar sroops )
     
  19. prakash.s.bagga

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    From gurbanee grammar one learns that any Noun word with a Matra of Aukad under its last letter is SINGULAR and the same word without matra of Aukad is PLURAL be it
    Masculine and or Feminine Gender.

    Like the word ਗੁਰੁ is SINGULAR for MASCULINE and/or Feminine Gender. And the word ਗੁਰ GuR ( without Aukad under its letter R) is PLURAL as Masculline and or Feminine Gender

    One can look for the classification of words in the chart form in the Gurbanee Grammar Book by Prof Sahib Singh ji or any other similar book.

    Prakash.S.Bagga
     
    #18 prakash.s.bagga, Nov 19, 2012
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2012
  20. BhagatSingh

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    Gyani ji,
    That makes sense.

    ਗੁਰ ਕਾ ਸਿਖੁ ਬਿਕਾਰ ਤੇ ਹਾਟੈ ॥

    Gur is never with an Aunkad when it is written in this form.

    Prakash ji,

    ਨਿਰਭਉ ਨਿਰਵੈਰ ਅਥਾਹ ਅਤੋਲੇ ॥
    So this translates to "One God is without fear, and multiple Gods are without enmity, unfathomable in depth and immeasurable"?

    What would these translate to?

    ਗੁਰਸਿਖੁ /ਗੁਰ ਕਾ [SIZE=1][COLOR=BLACK][FONT=Verdana][SIZE=2][SIZE=2][SIZE=2][SIZE=2][SIZE=2][SIZE=2][SIZE=2][SIZE=2][FONT=AnmolUniPr][SIZE=1]ਸਿਖੁ[/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/FONT][/COLOR][/SIZE] -
    [SIZE=2][SIZE=2][SIZE=2][SIZE=2][FONT=AnmolUniPr][SIZE=1]ਗੁਰਸਿਖ[SIZE=1] -[/SIZE][/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE]
    ਗੁਰੁ ਸਿਖ -
     
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    #19 BhagatSingh, Nov 19, 2012
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  21. prakash.s.bagga

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    ਗੁਰਸਿਖੁ ........Teaching of GuR or Single Person as Sikh
    of GuR

    ਗੁਰਸਿਖ -.......Teachings of GuR or Many persons as
    Sikh of GuR

    ਗੁਰੁ ਸਿਖ -...... Teachings of GuRu(Prabhu)NAAMu

    ਗੁਰ ਕਾ ਸਿਖੁ ਬਿਕਾਰ ਤੇ ਹਾਟੈ ॥

    Gur is never with an Aunkad when it is written in this form.
    Yes this is true.But this is so because of immediate next word being as Proposition.Here the word GuR is
    to be considered as GuRu for interpretation.
    This is an exception to the general Rule Singular/Plural
    consideration of the words.

    Prakash.S.Bagga
     
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    #20 prakash.s.bagga, Nov 19, 2012
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