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Polygamy and Sikhism

Discussion in 'Sikh Sikhi Sikhism' started by Neutral Singh, Aug 13, 2004.

  1. Neutral Singh

    Neutral Singh
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    Polygamy and Sikhism

    Polygamy is wide spread among different cultures of the world. According to one study out of '853' cultures only 16 percent stipulate monogamy. Historically most of the Sikh kings practiced polygamy in 18th and 19th centuary. The Guru Amar Dass ji has clearly defined that conjugal relationship has to be two bodies and one soul phenomenon. It vividly conforms to the monogamy idealism.

    It appears very paradoxical and enigmatic to a student of Sikh history when one confronts the practice of polygamy by some Sikh Gurus. Historically the following Gurus had more than one wife.
    *** Please Note :: The authenticity of historical accounts is debatable in these case as even today we can see people like ex-education minister of India, Murli Manohar Joshi, who simply erased the full chapters on Sikhism in history books of School children and also demeaned the martyardom of Guru Teg Bahadur Ji... So, dont get fooled by historical accounts. ***

    1. Guru Arjan Dev.

    Wives
    - Ram Deyi, daughter of Surri Khatri (Charan Dass) of village Mour married year Bik 1622. Guruji was 11 years old at that
    time Guru Amar Dass was on Guru Gaddi. (Ref. DR. Gopal Singh, Kesar Singh Chibbar, Mohinder Kaur Gill)
    *** It is a controversial issue among the Sikh historians
    - Ganga devi

    2. Guru Hargobind

    Wives
    - Damodri Devi
    - Nanki Devi
    - Maha Devi

    3. Guru Hari Rai

    Wives
    - Prem Kaur
    - Chand Kaur
    - Anokhi Devi
    - Ram Kaur
    - Laddli
    - Krishan Kaur
    - Kalyani

    4. Guru Gobind Singh

    Wives
    - Sahib Kaur Ji
    - Jeeto Rani
    - Sundri Devi

    Many causes about the practice of polygamy among the humans have been sited by eminent scholars...

    Helen Fisher states that men seek polygamy to spread their genes while women join harems to acquire resources and ensure the survival of their young. Polygamy enables men to have more children. Most of the scientific evidence stacks up in favor of monogamy. Desmond Morris summarised the explanations by saying that the pair bonding is a trademark of humans.

    But, even then the question arises, why Some Gurus did practice it?

    Most of Sikh scholars never touch the subject probably due to the divinity and spirituality associated with Sikh Gurus.
    Very few explanations have been given which can be summarised as such...

    1. It was the Divine will.

    2. One should not raise the issue as they were super humans and their life incidents are beyond the comprehension of commoners.

    3. With improved economy of Guru Ghars, the Gurus could afford multiple marriages...

    Spirituality, Awarness, Enlightment has nothing to do with polygamy, monogamy, hetrosexuality and homosextuality. This state of being is above and beyond all this.



    Guru Amar Dass Ji thus said

    bhu ByK kir BrmweIAY min ihrdY kptu kmwie ] (26-13, isrIrwgu, mhlw 3)
    People wear all sorts of costumes and wander all around, but in their hearts and minds, they practice deception.

    hir kw mhlu n pwveI mir ivstw mwih smwie ]1] (26-14, isrIrwgu, mhlw 3)
    They do not attain the Mansion of the Lord's Presence, and after death, they sink into manure. ||1||

    mn ry igRh hI mwih audwsu ] (26-14, isrIrwgu, mhlw 3)
    O mind, remain detached in the midst of your household.

    scu sMjmu krxI so kry gurmuiK hoie prgwsu ]1] rhwau ] (26-15, isrIrwgu, mhlw 3)
    Practicing truth, self-discipline and good deeds, the Gurmukh is enlightened. ||1||Pause||

    gur kY sbid mnu jIiqAw giq mukiq GrY mih pwie ] (26-15, isrIrwgu, mhlw 3)
    Through the Word of the Guru's Shabad, the mind is conquered, and one attains the State of Liberation in one's own home.

    hir kw nwmu iDAweIAY sqsMgiq myil imlwie ]2] (26-16, isrIrwgu, mhlw 3)
    So meditate on the Name of the Lord; join and merge with the Sat Sangat, the True Congregation. ||2||

    jy lK iesqrIAw Bog krih nv KMf rwju kmwih ] (26-16, isrIrwgu, mhlw 3)
    You may enjoy the pleasures of hundreds of thousands of women, and rule the nine continents of the world.

    ibnu siqgur suKu n pwveI iPir iPir jonI pwih ]3] (26-17, isrIrwgu, mhlw 3)
    But without the True Guru, you will not find peace; you will be reincarnated over and over again. ||3||

    hir hwru kMiT ijnI pihirAw gur crxI icqu lwie ] (26-18, isrIrwgu, mhlw 3)
    Those who wear the Necklace of the Lord around their necks, and focus their consciousness on the Guru's Feet

    iqnw ipCY iriD isiD iPrY Enw iqlu n qmwie ]4] (26-18, isrIrwgu, mhlw 3)
    -wealth and supernatural spiritual powers follow them, but they do not care for such things at all. ||4||

    jo pRB BwvY so QIAY Avru n krxw jwie ] (26-19, isrIrwgu, mhlw 3)
    Whatever pleases God's Will comes to pass. Nothing else can be done.

    jnu nwnku jIvY nwmu lY hir dyvhu shij suBwie ]5]2]35] (26-19, isrIrwgu, mhlw 3)
    Servant Nanak lives by chanting the Naam. O Lord, please give it to me, in Your Natural Way. ||5||2||35||


    Guru Arjan Dev ji also said...

    Awsw mhlw 5 ] (385-1)
    Aasaa, Fifth Mehl:

    pwvqu rlIAw jobin blIAw ] (385-1, Awsw, mhlw 5)
    The mortal revels in joy, in the vigor of youth;

    nwm ibnw mwtI sMig rlIAw ]1] (385-1, Awsw, mhlw 5)
    but without the Name, he mingles with dust. ||1||

    kwn kuMflIAw bsqR EFlIAw ] (385-2, Awsw, mhlw 5)
    He may wear ear-rings and fine clothes,

    syj suKlIAw min grblIAw ]1] rhwau ] (385-2, Awsw, mhlw 5)
    and have a comfortable bed, and his mind may be so proud. ||1||Pause||

    qlY kuMcrIAw isir kink CqrIAw ] (385-3, Awsw, mhlw 5)
    He may have elephants to ride, and golden umbrellas over his head;

    hir Bgiq ibnw ly Drin gflIAw ]2] (385-3, Awsw, mhlw 5)
    but without devotional worship to the Lord, he is buried beneath the dirt. ||2||

    rUp suMdrIAw Aink iesqrIAw ] (385-4, Awsw, mhlw 5)
    He may enjoy many women, of exquisite beauty;

    hir rs ibnu siB suAwd iPkrIAw ]3] (385-4, Awsw, mhlw 5)
    but without the sublime essence of the Lord, all tastes are tasteless. ||3||

    mwieAw ClIAw ibkwr ibKlIAw ] (385-4, Awsw, mhlw 5)
    Deluded by Maya, the mortal is led into sin and corruption.

    srix nwnk pRB purK dieAlIAw ]4]4]55] (385-5, Awsw, mhlw 5)
    Nanak seeks the Sanctuary of God, the All-powerful, Compassionate Lord. ||4||4||55||

    What do Sikhs think about Polygamy ?
     
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  3. Neutral Singh

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    What do Sikhs think about Polygamy ?
     
  4. Arvind

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    As per my gut feelings, I go for monogamy to ensure undivided love, dedication and everything. Well, once one reaches the state of Guru jis, they might make an issue of polygamy (to have more). Being a Gursikh is so difficult, forget being a Guru.

    Just a thought.
     
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  5. BabbarSher

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    Dear Neutral Singh

    Can you please elaborate upon the Sources for the multiple marriages of the Gurus?

    In my view sikhism advocates Monogamy

    1. Bhai Gurdass Ji's Vaar is one proof to this:
    "Eka nari jati hoi par nari dhi bhain vakhanai."

    2. A great Sikh General Hari Singh Nalua, was famous for his bravery and battle strategies. He was the only one in history who could rule over Kabul (Afghanistan) after defeating the Pathans. One Afghan princes got so enamored by his bravery that she some how succeeded in organizing a secret meeting with the General Hari Singh Nalua. On meeting him face to face she expressed her desire to marry him but the Sikh General refused the proposal by telling her that he is already married and as per his Guru’s commandments a Sikh cannot marry two women at the same time. After the refusal of her proposal the princes took a promise from the Sikh General that if he cannot marry her then he must not say no to her second proposal. When the general gave her his promise not to disappoint her the second time, then she asked him that she wants to have a brave son like him. The Sikh General thought for a moment and then fulfilled his promise and said “if you want a son like me then from now onwards I am your son” and he touched her feet pronouncing her his mother. This is an unparallel historical example of the character of a Sikh General not too easily found elsewhere in the history of the world.

    (Taken from www.sikhfilms.com with Thanks)

    Akal Sahai
     
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  6. Neutral Singh

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    I hope you know a person called Bahadur Singh... The following is reply by him to my above post... Any observations by you would be gr8 to this discussion. Please support your logics with historical validations so that doubts are cleared.

    Regards

     
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  7. BabbarSher

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    Dear Neutral:

    Bahadur singh is a person with Jazba..which is right, but I think he goes overboard quite frequently.

    NOTE: If Polygamy is allowed, by the rule of equality Polyandry should also be allowed. I wonder if Bahadur Singh is willing to justify that?

    My Response is after >>>>>>>>

    If polygamy was the absolute norm in SIkhi, as you say, Guru Gobind SIngh would not have had 3 wives otherwise our Guru would have contradicted his own teachings. He would not have accepted his Sikhs wish to have their daughters married as he says in Bachitar Natak: It is the Rahit that is dear to me not the Sikh!!! If polygamy was against rahit Guru Gobind SIngh would have been monogamous which he wasn't!!!In Charitropakhyan there are plenty of cases of polygamy that are not condemned. Sikhi does hence allow polygamy as long as all wives are treated equally and fairly.

    >>>>>>>>the whole response is based on the false premise that Guru Gobind Singh Ji was married twice. (my friend here mentions 3, hence taking it 1 marriage further than what some historians say). The point is that Guru Maharaj never married twice.

    The simple reason for two names is that sometimes when a girl is married, her name in Susraal is different from the one in Paike Ghar.

    I know of people who have 2 names - one for Peke Ghar and one for Suhre.

    >>>>>>>>The reference is being made to CharitroPakhyan:my friend Bahadur Singh says that polygamy is mentioned in Charitro and since it is not condemned in Charitro..it is allowable in Gurbani.

    1. CharitroPakhyan is not Gurbaani

    2. CharitroPakhyan does not even qualify as a historical document as there are many historical fallacies.

    3. Even if for a split second I admit that it is writing of Guru Gobind Singh Ji, just saying that since monogamy is mentioned and is not condemned so it is justified is a lame excuse.

    Going by the same standard Charitro mentions, hair removal creams, Bhang, Afeem etc. and does not condemn their use...?

    >>>>>>>>What does this imply? going by Bahdur Singh's deduction.



    Your argument about the Guru Gobind SIngh only marrying once is, I am afraid an utter insult to our Gurus. All the pre-British Sikh sources (such as Gurbiulas Patshahi 10,Chaupa SIngh Rahitnama, Banmsavali nama, Suraj Prakash Granth and Panth Prakash) mention the fact that Guru Gobind SIngh had three wives. All of these authors were Sikhs from the traditional orders created by SIkh Gurus themselves. All the real scholars from the puratan sampradayas (Nihang, Nirmale, Udasi and Sevapanthi) agree that our belove Guru Gobind Singh had three wives.

    >>>>>>>>Firstly, since Bahdur Singh is learned in all the above texts, he need to point out the page number and the line number where such proofs are provided by the authors.

    >>>>>>>>Secondly, all the above writings are not of Samkaleen writers of Guru Gobind Singh Ji?

    >>>>>>>>Thirdly they are themselves error prone not only on this aspect but also on many Gurmat aspects.

    >>>>>>>>Fourth, Over the years they have been susceptible to additions from a number sources.


    1.These three wives have their own samadhs. How could one single person have three samadhs?

    >>>>>>>>Who built these Samadhis? And is building a smadhi according to Gurmat? What is the purpose of building a samadhi and what does Guru Gobind Singh Ji say about those who belive in amris and Mats.

    Also why does sikhi belive in cremation and not burrying the bodies.

    2.The relics of these three wives are conserved and their places of birth and families have been recorded in Sikh historiographical writings.

    >>>>>>>>Please detail

    3. The Mughal sources clearly mention Mata Sundari and Mata Sahib Devan who lived simultaneously in Delhi in different houses!

    >>>>>>>>I would need to see the names and the exact quotes. Funny why the mughal sources dont mention about the third wife.

    4. Mata Sundari and Mata Sahib Devan wrote hukam namas and the handwriting on them is different.

    >>>>>>>>Most of the Hukamnamsa available to the sikhs are not authentic. Hence this is not a conclusive proof.

    Your arguments are based on pure imagination. Mine are based on sure historical sources.

    >>>>>>>>"SURE" is the word.... !!! You talk about histroy yet you so easily neglect Bhai Gurdas Ji's Baani.

    The problem with you Neo-Sikhs is that they have taken Protestantism and Victorian values as role models trying to prove that SIkhi is compatible with middle class culture!

    >>>>>>>>And the problem with you is that you are so much affected by the muslim shia way of life that you spend your nights dreaming about similarities.


    It is indeed a shame that so-called Sikhs roam around spreading lies about our beloved Gurus.

    Y>>>>>>>>es. thats what we worry about. A person who calls other sikhs, so-called sikhs.. should judge himself first.

    My advoce to you sikhphilosophy: study Sikhi properly before you criticise other religions because it seems you have a lot to learn still. I can't believe you actually have the guts to spread such lies about our Gurus. This is utterly disgusting!

    >>>>>>>>where did other religions come into picture. Please Bahadur Singh.. for a moment think of a sikhi as a religion separate and unique and dont try and find similarities between each aspect of sikhi and shia...


    Akal Sahai
     
  8. Platinum007

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    I'm not sikh, but my grandfather was.. and he had more then one wife..

    Personaly i think its perfectly fine to engage in a polygamy life style

    My reasons?
    By nature men are providers, if a women has no where to go it is our (a mans) duty to provide for some for them

    I beleive men have the ability to love more then one women, and treat both equaly

    What if there is a women living on the streets with a single child and no money?.. some times these women are foced into selling there bodies to provide.. rather men can do the honorable duty by helping.

    Obvously women are more independ now, but in the past being a independed women was next to impossible.

    In modern day I still beleive its "okay" to have more then one wife since in some cases some people (men and women) don't have the ability to be independent.

    now that i've said that i'm sure some women are thinking so "why can't women have more then one husband"
    here is why, will your child know who the father is? and study has shown it has phycological effects even if they know who the father is in such cases.
     
  9. drkhalsa

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    1 by nature men are provider

    2 women living on street

    3 women were not independent in past

    Your all assertion and reason belong s to medivial and possibaly stone age culture this is not the case I think is in world we are living in so if islam wants to preserve these expects of living and culture till date ( as you think) then obviously they are doing blunder and are not right as I think and believe . if you want to preserve something of the religion than its message should be preserved not the rituals ( as according to sikhism ) if you cant preserve a meesage without its adjunct like these old rituals then offcourse the problem is with your understanding of the message

    now the second thing


    I respect your belief but they almost absolutely wrong in wake of present understanding of science and Psychology

    Man is the weaker member of human species in respect to survive emotional and any kind of pysical stress in life

    about sexual performance Single women can satifactoraly have satisfying sexual relation with more than one man as her biological setup is made like that .so in practicle situation it is impossible for a man to satisfy two women sexualy while this is no problem for women to even have relation with more than one man and all this is not which I believe this well known hard facts you can confirm with any sextherapist or a doctor as this is very clear issue .


    by saying all this i don t want to claim that polygamy is right or wrong what I am saying is that the reason for male polygamy you are giving is childish in my view and who ever every body on this planet agrees for polygamy than womwn will be more fit candidate for polygamy


    O dear as I told it is not a stoneage if you want to go for female poly gamy science has devised 100% accurate test to tell you who your father is and offcourse in case of male poly gamy also it will great help as you never know who is father for sure
     
  10. Platinum007

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    yes, they are medivial... i was refering to such times..not in all aspects was I refering to today.. Obviously women are more independent now, but who NOT every women is....It was very normal at the time to marry more then one wife Islam only LIMITED polygamy to 4 wifes during those times, the Qu'ran stated it during that PERIOD since many men where marrying much more then 20 wifes at a time, and where not able to satisfy the needs of all of these women, I highly doubt ANY man can take care of even 10 wifes.. but if you study history you'll know that many men where marrying as much women (take king solomon as an example). .. its not recommended in Islam to marry more then one, but if it comes down to it 4 is the maximum for those reasons i just provided above. (Also consider the fact that hardly any men in islamic countries are even practicing polygamy anymore other then the "royals" who seem to abuse and take advantage of everything and call themselfs "muslims")Read up on history and the religion under a positive light, maybe you'll learn something new. Also many other cultures in today societies still marry more then one female.

    Unless your talking about a female able to sexual satisfy two men AT THE SAME TIME. then i can see your point.. but, it seems by NATURE men have a tendancy to sexually satisfy more then one women at a time. Find a web site and see the number of male cheaters in comparison to female to cheaters... the fact that most of these women cheat is because they are not in "right" relationship (sex is excluded)..and want a different type of romance.. but are to weak or will eventually leave their current relationship.. as for men MOST of the times its simply because they want another female. This all leads to the old "stone age" nature your thinking of (maybe God intended it to be) of men who want multiple women to bare them many children and be able to plant there "seed" in many areas as possible so they can multiple offsprings, it works at a subconctions level.

    women more fit candidate?... if you have ever studied sociology, you will learn that by nature women don't think in a linear logical fashion like men yet females by nature think in a intiution style..hense the reason why women don't opt to study being a airplane poilet, engineering... etc etc.. sure you'll find a few but even in this liberal western society women STILL dont' choose to study in such fields, just to prove my point as to how women think.

    If women think such a way they obviously won't be the BEST candidate for polygamy. Even in a modern day society women will NOT emotionally be able to handle a mere two husbands (if THAT works)... Other cultures even in todays society practice polygamy (excluding muslim countries, which hardly even practice polygamy anymore) but many african tribes do and they work out fine... some MUCH older cultures DID have polygamy for women and lets just it didnt' work out that well ;)
    We both can probalby agree women are much more emotional then men, genernally speaking their emotions can swing from one end to another.. So how will a women be able to handling working a job, raising kids, and please more then one man?... If u take into factor that womens incomes are lower in Canada/America its NOT ALWAYS because they are paid less, since 1996 female/male income gap has closed to a very satisfying level for women, yet in 2004 womens incomes where STILL less then there male counterpart... WHY?.. women generally don't work as MANY HOURS a week as men do, the reasons basically fall into stone age time. I'm sure u can figure that one our yourself :)

    of course, your right! :) but i beleive you over looked something... EVEN if a child did find out who is father is from a group of 2-8 men (through DNA testing) for example it is more emotionally stressful, and pchybologially destress on the child as it would be the other way around.

    Also biologically speaking women can carry disease in there genital area more easly COMPARED to men.. so the spead of a virus is MORE liken to happen when a female takes on a polygamy life style.

    Your right when you exclude SOME "stone age" ideas, but remember at the core of things humans will be humans and human NATURE rarely changes in ways your thinking.
     
  11. Platinum007

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    future more,
    women by nature like tend to be drawn to raising there children, which leads them not able to work as many hours as men.. making them more dependent to a certain degree, YES it could go the other way around too... but generally speaking this is how its always been, and by nature how females are.

    If you look at modern day society you will see that many women are drawn to a wealthy man (provider) and would care less if that man has a wife...so some women today just into pural marages with both arms and legs without thinking of a males first wife. (it CAN happen the other way aroud, but it does so seldomly)

    if you look at history, and the highly respectful Guru Arjan Dev, Guru Hargobind, Guru Hari Rai, and Guru Gobind Singh all had more then one wife, In todays society it seems almost like second nature to SOME women not to care if a weathly man has already has a wife.

    Over all, your points do sound fine, i've also at some points took the side of female polygamy since i don't like to keep a closed mind to one side.. but after considering both sides with an open mind males have MORE MERIT, and have different
     
  12. Platinum007

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    future more,
    women by nature like tend to be drawn to raising there children, which leads them not able to work as many hours as men.. making them more dependent to a certain degree, YES it could go the other way around too... but generally speaking this is how its always been, and by nature how females are.

    If you look at modern day society you will see that many women are drawn to a wealthy man (provider) and would care less if that man has a wife...so some women today jump into pural marages with both arms and legs without thinking of a males first wife. IF it does happen the other way around in MOST AND MANY cases the male is there for only one reason and doesn't care about starting a relationship..

    if you look at history, and the highly respectful Guru Arjan Dev, Guru Hargobind, Guru Hari Rai, and Guru Gobind Singh all had more then one wife, In todays society it seems almost like second nature to SOME women not to care if a weathly man has already has a wife.

    Over all, your points do sound fine, i've also at some points took the side of female polygamy since i don't like to keep a closed mind to one side.. but after considering both sides with an open mind males have MORE MERIT, and have different QUALITIES that women don't that let males be more succesful in polagamy, if it wasn't so the great successful AND WISE men of our history wouldn't have done it. Take into consideration some of the very respectful Guru's did it.
     
  13. nsbuttar

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    Aman Singh's initial post comes from here http://www.{url not allowed}/Sikhnet/discussion.nsf/0/F4F0F76A8D1D5F5B872565C8004DAF6F?OpenDocument
    (Just a request, please provide the source of your information. It helps a lot, thx)


    Now the question of 2/3 Wives of Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji. (Yes, guyz some cronicals do reflect 3 wives of Shri Guru Gobind Singh Ji) But the explaination comes right here.

    ====================================================================================
    Article taken from this book.
    Encyclopedia of Sikhism edited by Harbans Singh ji.
    NOTE: (based on the following results on the research by Dr. Gurbaksh Singh ji

    The wrong impression that the Guru had more than one wife was created by those writers who were ignorant of Punjabi culture. Later authors accepted those writings indicating more than one marriage of the Guru and presented it as a royal act. During those days kings, chiefs, and other important people usually had more than one wife as a symbol of their being great and superior to the common man. Guru Gobind Singh, being a true king, was justified in their eyes to have had more than one wife. This is actually incorrect. In Punjab, there are two and sometimes three big functions connected with marriage, i.e., engagement, wedding, and Muklawa. Big gatherings and singings are held at all these three functions. In many cases, the engagement was held as soon as the person had passed the infant stage. Even today engagements at 8 to 12 years of age are not uncommon in some interior parts of India. The wedding is performed a couple of years after the engagement. After the wedding, it takes another couple of years for the bride to move in with her in laws and live there. This is called Muklawa. A dowry and other gifts to the bride are usually given at this time of this ceremony to help her to establish a new home. Now, the wedding and Muklawa are performed on the same day and only when the partners are adults.

    A big befitting function and other joyful activities were held at anand Pur, according to custom, at the time of the engagement of the Guru. The bride, Mata Jeeto Ji, resided at Lahore, which was the capital of the Mughal rulers who were not on good terms with the Gurus. When the time for the marriage ceremony came, it was not considered desirable for the Guru to go to Lahore, along with the armed Sikhs in large numbers. Furthermore, it would involve a lot of traveling and huge expenses, in addition to the inconvenience to the Sangat, younger and old, who wished to witness the marriage of the Guru. Therefore, as mentioned in the Sikh chronicles, Lahore was 'brought' to Anand Pur Sahib for the marriage instead of the Guru going to Lahore. A scenic place a couple of miles to the north of Anand Pur was developed into a nice camp for the marriage. This place was named Guru Ka Lahore. Today, people are going to Anand Pur visit this place as well. The bride was brought to this place by her parents and the marria ge was celebrated with a very huge gathering attending the ceremony.

    The two elaborate functions, one at the time of engagement and the other at the time of the marriage of the Guru, gave the outside observers the impression of two marriages. They had reason to assume this because a second name was also there, i.e., Mata Sundari Ji. After the marriage, there is a custom in the Panjab of giving a new affectionate name to the bride by her inlaws. Mata Jeeto Ji, because of her fine features and good looks, was named Sundari (beautiful) by the Guru's mother. The two names and two functions gave a basis for outsiders to believe that the Guru had two wives. In fact, the Guru had one wife with two names as explained above. Some historians even say that Guru Gobind Singh had a third wife, Mata Sahib Kaur. In 1699, the Guru asked her to put patasas (puffed sugar) in the water for preparing Amrit when he founded the Khalsa Panth. Whereas Guru Gobind Singh is recognized as the spiritual father of the Khalsa, Mata Sahib Kaur is recognized as the spiritual mother of the Khalsa. People not conversant with the Amrit ceremony mistakenly assume that Mata Sahib Kaur was the wife of Guru Gobind Singh. As Guru Gobind Singh is the spiritual but not the biological father of the Khalsa, Mata Sahib Devan is the spiritual mother of the Khalsa, Mata Sahib Devan is the spiritual mother of the Khalsa but not the wife of Guru Gobind Singh. From ignorance of Punjabi culture and the Amrit ceremony, some writers mistook these three names of the women in the life of Guru Gobind Singh as the names of his three wives. Another reason for this misunderstanding is that the parents of Mata Sahib Devan, as some Sikh chronicles have mentioned, had decided to marry her to Guru Gobind Singh. When the proposal was brought for discussion to Anandpur, the Guru had already been married. Therefore, the Guru said that he could not have another wife since he was already married. The dilemma before the parents of the girl was that, the proposal having become public, no Sikh would be willing to marry her. The Guru agreed for her to stay at Anand Pur but without accepting her as his wife. The question arose, as most women desire to have children, how could she have one without being married. The Guru told, "She will be the "mother" of a great son who will live forever and be known all over the world." The people understood the hidden meaning of his statement only after the Guru associated Mata Sahib Devan with preparing Amrit by bringing patasas. It is, therefore, out of ignorance that some writers consider Mata Sahib Devan as the worldly wife of Guru Gobind Singh.
    ======================================================================================

    Source : http://www.sikh-history.com/sikhhist/gurus/matajito.html

    Waheguru Ji Ka khalsa, Waheguru Ji ki Fateh.
     
  14. Amerikaur

    Amerikaur
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    I respectfully disagree a bit with Platinum.


    ""women by nature like tend to be drawn to raising there children"

    The women that have children often do tend to be raising them, yes. But with the birth control pill, as well as some erosion prejudice, there are many women that are content to not have children at all.


    ""which leads them not able to work as many hours as men.. making them more dependent to a certain degree ""

    I don't necessarily agree with that. There are many situations where the husband simply does not earn enough to support the household, and the wife must earn something so the household stays solvent. In that situation, the husband is just as dependent on the wife.


    "" YES it could go the other way around too... but generally speaking this is how its always been, and by nature how females are. ""

    But women working isn't "how it's always been." That has been more recent. But if having children and staying home with them were how all females are...then there would be substantially less women in the workforce...as they would all be drawn to staying at home caring for their children.


    ""If you look at modern day society you will see that many women are drawn to a wealthy man (provider) and would care less if that man has a wife...so some women today jump into pural marages with both arms and legs without thinking of a males first wife.""

    A woman in that situation is not fulfilling the role of a wife, she is fulfilling the role of a prostitute.


    ""the highly respectful Guru Arjan Dev, Guru Hargobind, Guru Hari Rai, and Guru Gobind Singh all had more then one wife ""

    But the reasons behind it were not specifically (or exclusively) so a man can indulge himself sexually with more than one woman.

    There was very little in those days for medicine, or medical care. Diseases were common...especially in hot climates. Life provided much more risk. Childbirth was risky. Children were paramount. Women did not have careers of their own, and sterile women were dismissed as useless.

    In addition to the reasons sited by Dr. Gurbaksh Singh, polygamy had a very important role of ensuring perpetual children. It provided genetic diversity to fend off diseases and disorders. It is a fantastic solution.

    And now, centuries later, the planet is feeling the strain of all of that genetic diversity. Two coutries where polygamy thrived for centuries, India and China, are now desoerately overcrowded with populations topping over 1,000,000,000 each.

    But in modern times, we have much better medical care, many diseases are under control, and a very watchful eye is taken torwards reproductive habits. Or in China's case, a very legislative eye. There may have been a time, and a need, for polygamy. However, that time is likely not now.
     
  15. The lion king

    The lion king
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    I agree with the above.

    polygamy is of no value in this day and age.

    women now are more independent and are more career focused.
     
  16. vijaydeep Singh

    vijaydeep Singh
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    Gurfateh



    Sau Sakhi was writtan at the time of GURU and if we go by and if go by it other sources for other justufication like to eat meat then we must accpet that Guuru had Mahal more then one.Especialy the Tenth Master.



    If Kala Afghan Ji or Baber sher ji say that Triya Chritar are not Gurubani then this does not means that it is not.If they say same for Japu Sahib or like they say for Raagmala they say for other Sabads of Guru Granth Sahib Ji.They are not the authority to decide nor is Das.



    But what qoute of Bhai Gurdas JI is given(bhai Kahan Singh Ji Nabah said that not all of thier Vars are authinitc) but Das say all are true.



    What he said regarding EK Nari Jati is in General term ie to be truthfull to own wife as later on he state not to go after other's wife.So even more then one wife is thier at a time we can be loyal to one or more then one of our own wifes.But not to commit adultory.



    In cases like rape,widowhood oor exterme fincial or phyisical difficulty there could not be any problem for polygamy.Due to going after mony to rear more child Sikhs are already haing less population due to family plaing and may bcome minority in Hindu or Muslim Majority and ploygamy can solve this problem.

    Well Das can not make two Angeetha or Tenth Guru then why can we have arhcilogical Angeethas for all three matas.One is in Annadpur Sahib(Mata Ajeet Kaur Ji) and other two are in Bala Sahib Delhi.

    It is craze to mould and fit Sikhism in modern fold that we harp anti polygamy weather in this process we are sufocating it with false information.

    Das would like to have more then one wife(Just kiding) and give birth to 10 Sikhs if Akal allow by 3 wife and make a criket team.

    In Fact it is better to give a doughter to give to Sikh even already married then let her go to Anti Sikh non Sikh.Das can bring here an essy hew rote sometime before in this regard.

    Das can only say that those who sit there in west can coment while here where we fight for survivla in democracy and n umber counts we have to think practice.Let there be seprate Sikh family law and we must be made to have ploygamy.

    we were 2.5% of India 15 years before.

    Today we are les s then 1.9

    This could be one of the reason.In Punjab Sikhs are keep on haiving samller andsamller family and this wil keep on reducing thier numbers.And Sikhism is ultimate ends of other faiths and not something uprooted that we do not leanr from other like say Muslims r Jews so that we can do something to save faith.
     
  17. Arvind

    Arvind
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    There was a news in circulation that Jathedar Patna Sahib exhibited polygamy with an intention to prove that it is okay. Someone may like to post evidence to this, if there is any link online abt this.

    Personally, I feel monogamy is better.

    Thanks.
     
  18. The lion king

    The lion king
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    I, personally am not in favour of polygamy. but if such a case rises where it is absolute nessasry IF under extenuating circumstances then its ok.
     
  19. vijaydeep Singh

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    Gurfateh

    Das will soon analyse where Brother Baber Sher were making some good statements and Das may not agree.Das can say that Das is not generalising that all of us should do polygamy but mongamy and Polygamy can go togather.

    In Past Arya Samajis wanted to say Gurus were lustfull so they did have more then one wives so to defend that our reformer made all these claims.If they say Rama was Yug Purush with one wife then he had three mothers.

    Lord Krishna Had more then one wife.He is mentioned in Bhai Gurdas's Var and equated with God and told that he was mercyful to Sudama Ji and Vidur Ji.The same person Bhai Gurdas says that one (person) must be loyal or chaste(Yati) with Nari(wife) and other's (marreid )wife must be deemed sisters/mothers /Doughters.

    So go to south but do not to north.In this statement going to east or west is not prohibitied.So to marry unamrred,divrecee or Widowed by marreided are not forbbiddan.(by the way what is the proof that Vars of Bhai sahib are key to Gurbani,telll this to Das?)

    Well Guru Ji were not Jatts or Punjabis and deeming them same is very Bad.Say Bibi Nanaki,Mata Tripta,Mata Khivi,Mata Bhani,Mata Gujari in there case there is only one name is there iif Das knows correctly and why were they not givne two names.

    Then regarding Three Angeethas even if he exume or X Ray bones of female under Three of them if someone does not want to agree to it then Das can not forece them.

    By the way why should some one make two Samadhis(Angeetha or Grave of remains) of a 'single' person adjacent to each others as in Bala Sahib Gurudwara,Delhi(Both Mata Sahib Kaur and Mata Sundri Ji).

    Then Das does not find Rahit is beloved to me and Sikh is not Vachitar Natak.It is in Rahit Nammah of some person who could be at the time of Tenth master and After him also.He is correct in both the cases.But Bhai Gurbax Singh(writer of Mangal Prakash) and Kavi Santokh Singh Ji(Suraj Praksh's writer) contemporary of Guru and born after Gurus going to Sachkhand are not correct when they btalk of Gurus having more then one wife.Akal decides.

     
  20. Sher Singh

    Sher Singh
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    NO, THE SIKH GURU'S DID NOT HAVE MORE THAN ONE WIFE!!!
    I say this because I no for a fact that the Guru's wouldnt go against another Guru's teaching. there is no point in having more than one wife. The Guru's had one wife and one wife only. I think that the some women didnt want to get married and just stay with the Guru, because getting married there re many responsibilities. Thus, the Guru's had one wife, but i think that the other women became "famous for being the Gurus' wife" as well because they didnt want to get married, but stay with the Guru, and do sewa.

    Forgive me if i said anythign wrong.
     
  21. Lee

    Lee
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    Waheguru Ji Ka Kahlsa,
    Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh,

    AmeriKaur, Platimun, Cyeber Sangat.

    Umm all very intersting, I can see the merits of both.

    I think what Platinum is saying, is more to do with the inherant built in differances between male and female. Which as she rightly points out will not really change, no matter how we change socialy as a species.

    On a personal note, I could see how polygamy could work but my wife wouldn't let me :0)

    Cheers,

    Lee.
     

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