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UK Police And Public Injured As Violence Flares At "Peaceful" Dudley Protest

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spnadmin

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I am stunned that any any mitigating circumstances would be cited for what happened. Both sides are not to be blamed! What occurred? Numerous felonies to include: assault and battery, breaking and entering, vandalism and destruction of property, and the possibility of criminal conspiracy.

A policeman and other individuals had to be hospitalized. The hall was funded in part by public money. Someone did not do the homework necessary to pull an organized protest off. Essentially a protest was organized, and the organizers lost control of the protest.
 

Harry Haller

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The thing is, there are Gurdwaras all over the world that stray to some extent from what is written and what is expected. I am sure every pedant could find something critical if they scrutinized every Gurdwara.

However picking ones like these that attempt to bridge the gap between the elite and the not so elite is simply cowardice. If it is known that a gurdwara has certain 'ways' about it, and you find them repugnant, then do not go there. I am a mona, and I enjoy a drink, however, when I go to gurdwara, I want my granthi perfect, and I have no wish to associate my own failings with a gurdwara that rubber stamps them. That is my personal opinion, and I would not foist it on others.

However this mob has picked an easy target here, I would like to see them gatecrash a Nirankari Gurdwara, and see how they find that, or even better, goto India and gatecrash a Nihang Gurdwara, and tell them they are wrong, but no, I suppose its easier to inflict your opinions (right or wrong) on old men and teenagers
 

Scarlet Pimpernel

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Spnadmin

With respect to the funding ,from what I have heard coming from people in Dudley is that originally a large amount of it came from a grant which was used for building the actual facility ,the land for the hall however was purchased by using funds from the Gurdwara, but was accounted for as a loan, to be paid back when the hall became operational.
For UK members the Tuesday 1pm Nihal show on Asian Network discussed the topic and is available on I player.
 

Scarlet Pimpernel

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Harry

I think you have a point when I heard the debate on TV the Committee were held up for not having enough Amritdhari in the committee,but the committee only reflects the Sikh Sangat of Dudley who are majority of them unfortunately are not Keshdhari.
They may not be the most organised or the best at management of a Gurdwara,but if they fail or succeed ,it's not good for it to be overtaken by outside forces.That would set a bad precedent.
One suggestion I read on another forum was from "Khalistani Gunman" and was asking "Can the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji be removed and any GutkaSahibs if the committee don't come on board".
 

Randip Singh

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Dear Randip
Quote" This hall was a community centre owned by Sikhs, and was not a Gurdwara, therefore it does not matter whether meat or alcohol was served there."
That was exactly my initial gut feeling,seems really simple yet there has been so much turmoil I just heard about how they punched people in the face from my 17 year old cousin who was there.I'm so glad that he had the sense not to get into the violence.

Why are young Sikh's so easily led into these campaigns?

They use inflamatory language like Beadbi, and say how the Gurudwara has been desecrated. That makes the situation worse.
 

Randip Singh

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Dear and Respected Saadh Sangat Jio

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

I rarely post other than on reaction to my articles on SPN. I have done so on two or three occasions and each time got burnt my fingers and perhaps even alienated some – this I regretted very much. It is only too easy to be misunderstood on non-face to face discussions. However, this is one occasion I could no longer hold myself.

Here we see yet another manifestation of discord, lack of communication and increasing diversity in opinion and deed amongst ourselves. A lot of comments are made on TV, press and forums, many not well thought out nor giving a balanced view. These only add fire to an already inflamed and sensitive situation. This also gives an opportunity to some individuals to grind their own axes and promote their own brand of Sikhi. There is a great need for a balanced view on the issues facing us without any personal agenda – this is a general point not aimed at anyone personal on this forum or elsewhere.

The core issue here is the use (or misuse) of premises that are associated with a Guru Ghar (Gurudwara). The main contention being: “is it OK to preach abstinence under one roof and permit it under another - next door? Some view this as saying “you must abstain from intoxicants etc… etc… but if you insist you may do so in our building next door”.

I, personally, am not associated with any Gurudwara Committee or organisation and take a genuinely neutral stand. There is absolutely no excuse for violence, particularly amongst people of the same faith. However, in this instance I cannot help feeling that there is ‘fault’ (for want of a better word) on both sides caused by a sheer lack of communication or, perhaps, unwillingness to communicate. There also appears to be an element of provocation which led to the disorderly and shameful scenes we had to witness on the Sikh Channel, and the U tube.

My personal observation is that we as a nation fail to see each other’s problems and points of view and want to impose our values on others in an insensitive and ‘anti-gurmat’ manner. This again applies to all sides of the spectrum. There is great need for debate and discussion because of the increasing diversity in opinion, culture and values we experience in the modern times. Such discussions must be based on the teachings of Guru Granth Sahib with humility being a necessary undertone. No matter in which part of the world we are living our conduct has an impact on the lives of others - Sikhs and non-Sikhs. It is therefore imperative that we act with absolute caution and total responsibility.

An additional factor to consider is that there are racist elements within the UK police and such events give them an opportunity to vent out their own prejudices against the minorities (it was mentioned on the Sikh Channel that one senior person had his beard pulled by a policeman without any provocation). We are our own worst enemies and walk into the hands of others who are only to happy to oblige.

It has emerged quite clearly that the majority of the protestors were peaceful. The actions of the minority cannot be justified even under the provocation that is claimed by some. Before embarking on the mission some taunting and verbal provocation must have expected and the campaigners should have been prepared to handle this – and this where they have failed themselves. It is in our interests to learn how to handle provocation and any physical reaction must only be in self-defence.

On 28 March 2011, I attended the Celebration of Vaisakhi at Westminster (Parliament Buildings, House of Commons, London). The event was attended by many MPs, ministers, Lords and the Leader of the opposition Ed Miliband and covered by the Sikh TV channels. This was taken as an opportunity to raise the question of turban at airports. Speaker after speaker spoke in support our rights to wear the five kakaars in public and that the turban of Sikh is not an accessory but an integral and sacred part of our identity. Events such as Dudley weaken our case and had this taken an even uglier turn involving kirpans it would have jeopardised and thwarted all our efforts – perhaps this what some elements amongst us want – some people may want to portray this as a battle between the monas and amritdharis – which it is not. Sikhism must embrace all as did our Gurus and any persuasion to come back into the fold must be by peaceful means based Sikh Ethics (sidhant).

In the end let me stress very strongly that I am not taking sides and that somewhere along the line both sides are to blame – basically an unwillingness to communicate, to shed ego and stubbornness - the end result is in front of us. I pray that we will all be spared a repeat of this unfortunate and unnecessary episode in the future and that we can conduct ourselves in a way that is more mature and commensurate with the teachings of our illustrious Gurus.

Bhul chul di khima

Rajinder Singh ‘Arshi’

Some excellent points.

One thing I will say is that not all buildings that are owned by the Gurudwara automatically become sacred.

We know Sikhs are going to go and drink, and at least if they are doing it on premises where the Gurudwara can take some benefit from it, maybe the Gurudwara can lauch campaigns with the money to help stop alcohol abuse.
 

Scarlet Pimpernel

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"Mass movements appeal to frustrated people who are dissatisfied with their current state, but are capable of a strong belief in the future. As well, mass movements appeal to people who want to escape a flawed self by creating an imaginary self and joining a collective whole. Some categories of people who may be attracted to mass movements include poor people, misfits, and people who feel thwarted in their endeavors. Hoffer quotes extensively from leaders of the Nazi and communist parties in the early part of the 20th Century, to demonstrate, among other things, that they were competing for adherents from the same pool of people predisposed to support mass movements. Despite the two parties' fierce antagonism, they were more likely to gain recruits from their opposing party than from moderates with no affiliation to either.The book (TRUE BELIEVER )also explores the behavior of mass movements once they become established (or leave the "active phase"). With their collapse of a communal framework people can no longer defeat the feelings of insecurity and uncertainty by belonging to a compact whole."
Another quote by him from in the (PASSIONATE STATE OF MIND):"Our greatest pretenses are built up not to hide the evil and the ugly in us, but our emptiness. The hardest thing to hide is something that is not there. "Eric Hoffer 1955
(He wrote ten books in his sparetime as he worked on a docks despite being blinded as a child)
 

findingmyway

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Why are young Sikh's so easily led into these campaigns?

My guess is that this is because the soldier aspect of a Sikh is romanticised but the saint part is left behind. Also the way the youth is being taught in gurmat classes is increasingly rule based rather than understanding based and others are forced out so there is no balanced view. That is my observation!
 

Scarlet Pimpernel

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Ms Way you are right but it runs deeper than that ,you gotta read True Believer.

Thanks for taking the time to answer my internet ponderings!

“All I say is by way of discourse, and nothing by way of advice"

Montaigne
 

findingmyway

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Mr Way you are right but it runs deeper than that ,you gotta read True Believer.

Thanks for taking the time to answer my internet ponderings!

“All I say is by way of discourse, and nothing by way of advice"

Montaigne

Who's that by? How we have ended up here has troubled me a lot as I don't see how the trend can be reversed. I see less emphasis on the Guru Granth Sahib ji and more on being part of a collective and either being in or out. There's no room for discussion anymore :motherlylove:
J Kaur
 

Scarlet Pimpernel

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Ms Kaur (forgive me for assuming you were male,I'm new to this using other names game)

It seems the temporal authority's sandesh is more important to this group than other principles of our faith ,like kindness ,understanding,restraint.

The quote is by Montaigne who influenced Hoffer and so he uses the quote by Montaigne in the preface of his own book ,the True Believer.
I really admire Hoffer because he was the opposite of those people who just sit and do philosophy ,he worked full time loading and unloading ships ,and wrote philosophical treatises during his time off.
You would never think a labourer could write so well!Gives me hope, being working class myself.
S S Medare
 
Jun 3, 2011
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All the comments are spot on. These people are so hard-line fundamentalists, what is wrong with a bit of meat and sharaab in a Sikh Community hall eh?
 

Scarlet Pimpernel

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Breeb
The group are saying any Gurdwara property must be used to cultivate and adhere to Sikhi principles.

I emailed the group to say that I felt they had a noble intention, but to enforce it would be like being a religous police force and as they are not given a mandate by the majority of Sikhs they should leave it to each Gurdwara.

I quoted Robert E Lee to them who was for the Union but had to fight on the other side for the love of his family and State.This was to invoke in them affection for those with differing opinions. My position was of being for " respect " and against "Fighting" my brothers in faith.

"Now we are in a state of war which will yield to nothing. The whole South is in a state of revolution,into which Virginia, after a long struggle, has been drawn; and though I recognise no necessity for this state of things, and would have forborne and pleaded to the end for redress of grievances, real or supposed, yet in my own person I had to meet the question whether I should take part against my native State.

With all my devotion to the Union and the feeling of loyalty and duty of an American citizen, I have not been able to make up my mind to raise my hand against my relatives, my children, my home. I have therefore resigned my commission in the Army, and save in defense of my native State, with the sincere hope that my poor services may never be needed, I hope I may never be called on to draw my sword. I know you will blame me; but you must think as kindly of me as you can,and believe that I have endeavoured to do what I thought right."

Robert E.Lee
 

spnadmin

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All the comments are spot on. These people are so hard-line fundamentalists, what is wrong with a bit of meat and sharaab in a Sikh Community hall eh?

Breeb! Sp far you are the first to confront the question "what is wrong with a bit of meat and sharaab in etc......" Actually that is not the direction the comments against the vandals and gundhas in this story has taken. Until now.

Sharab, leaving meat to one side since the center is not a langar hal,l is contravened for Sikhs. So putting the label "Sikh" on the cultural center is offensive for a wide sector of Sikhs. That was a mis-step on the part of the management committee some time back.

Question: Did their lack of judgement justify what happened on May 28 even one small bit?

The indignation against this so called protest has centered on the fact that crimes have been committed and then these crimes were justified as protecting Sikhism. Taking the law into one's own hands always raises the question of using the "ends to justify the means." A lot bad has happened so far. I won't repeat it. 200 people did not have enough grasp of life in civil society to get why their deeds were wrong. So....

Let's not give the gundhas any more opening to say " See!, Our next incursion in to peaceful civil society will be morally right." Because that is what they will say. But it won't be morally right. So use some discretion.
 

Scarlet Pimpernel

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Dear Spnadmin
Quote "That was a mis-step on the part of the management committee"

I agree the people who changed the name, did not anticipate the infuriated sentiments of the more adherent Sikh brethrin. It was funded in large part by the borough,so it should have stayed as "Dudley Community Centre".

The means they used on the day were certainly against the law of the land and were immoral acts.
 
Jun 3, 2011
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Woudn't you say that if a building has been established by the golak of the Gurdwara then it should adhere to the principles of the gurdwara ?
 
Jun 3, 2011
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Look, I like a good beefburger like the next person, but if a number of gurdwaras from the midlands have approached the dudley committee over the last few months trying to make them see sense about the Akaal takhat hukamnama and the protests were 95% peaceful then surely the committee should take note of the sentiments of the sangat ? do you not think ?

Hey, maybe am wrong who knows ?
 
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