Welcome to SPN

Register and Join the most happening forum of Sikh community & intellectuals from around the world.

Sign Up Now!

Paurees Suggest a Rather Abrahamic God-figure

Discussion in 'Questions and Answers' started by Ishna, Jan 5, 2013.

  1. Ishna

    Ishna
    Expand Collapse
    On hiatus
    Writer SPNer Contributor

    Joined:
    May 9, 2006
    Messages:
    2,942
    Likes Received:
    5,002
    *squints at screen... not sure if Waheguru... or Allah!*

    I was reading Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji just now and noticed an interesting set of paurhis which seem to describe Akal Purakh in Abrahamical terms, starting at ang 89. I was surprised by this.

    The paurhis are separated by shaloks and I can't see how they relate.

    Here's ang 89 at SriGranth: http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.gurbani?Action=Page&g=1&h=1&r=1&t=1&p=0&k=0&fb=0&Param=89

    Here's the entire section in English with the paurhis highlighted. I've left the Gurmukhi out as the post will become too cumbersome otherwise. I hope that's ok. I'm not sure which comes first, shalok or paurhi, so I've kept the shaloks at the very beginning of the section and at the very end in case they are relevant.

    I always thought people reaped what they sowed. I never considered Guruji as the kind of creative force which actively chose sides, wielding justice in his hand, bashing the sinners and coddling the believers. That's how this reads, a bit. What do you think?

    It also frightens me to think this sentiment can be used to displace responsibility, i.e. 'she suffered because she was a sinner, even if we didn't see it, God saw it, and delivered justice in the form of this suffering'.

    Thanks in advance for any thoughts you may have.

    SHALOK, SECOND MEHL: Chop off that head which does not bow to the Lord. O Nanak, that human body, in which there is no pain of separation from the Lord—take that body and burn it. || 1 || FIFTH MEHL: Forgetting the Primal Lord, O Nanak, people are born and die, over and over again. Mistaking it for musk, they have fallen into the stinking pit of filth. || 2 || PAUREE: Meditate on that Name of the Lord, O my mind, whose Command rules over all. Chant that Name of the Lord, O my mind, which will save you at the very last moment. Chant that Name of the Lord, O my mind, which shall drive out all hunger and desire from your mind. Very fortunate and blessed is that Gurmukh who chants the Naam; it shall bring all slanderers and wicked enemies to fall at his feet. O Nanak, worship and adore the Naam, the Greatest Name of all, before which all come and bow. || 15 || SHALOK, THIRD MEHL: She may wear good clothes, but the bride is ugly and rude; her mind is false and impure. She does not walk in harmony with the Will of her Husband Lord. Instead, she foolishly gives Him orders. But she who walks in harmony with the Guru’s Will, shall be spared all pain and suffering. That destiny which was pre-ordained by the Creator cannot be erased. She must dedicate her mind and body to her Husband Lord, and enshrine love for the Word of the Shabad. Without His Name, no one has found Him; see this and reflect upon it in your heart. O Nanak, she is beautiful and graceful; the Creator Lord ravishes and enjoys her. || 1 || THIRD MEHL: Attachment to Maya is an ocean of darkness; neither this shore nor the one beyond can be seen. The ignorant, self-willed manmukhs suffer in terrible pain; they forget the Lord’s Name and drown. They arise in the morning and perform all sorts of rituals, but they are caught in the love of duality. Those who serve the True Guru cross over the terrifying world-ocean. O Nanak, the Gurmukhs keep the True Name enshrined in their hearts; they are absorbed into the True One. || 2 || PAUREE: The Lord pervades and permeates the water, the land and the sky; there is no other at all. The Lord Himself sits upon His Throne and administers justice. He beats and drives out the false-hearted. The Lord bestows glorious greatness upon those who are truthful. He administers righteous justice. So praise the Lord, everybody; He protects the poor and the lost souls. He honors the righteous and punishes the sinners. || 16 || SHALOK, THIRD MEHL: The self-willed manmukh, the foolish bride, is a filthy, rude and evil wife. Forsaking her Husband Lord and leaving her own home, she gives her love to another. Her desires are never satisfied, and she burns and cries out in pain. O Nanak, without the Name, she is ugly and ungraceful. She is abandoned and left behind by her Husband Lord. || 1 || THIRD MEHL: The happy soul-bride is attuned to the Word of the Shabad; she is in love with the True Guru. She continually enjoys and ravishes her Beloved, with true love and affection. She is such a loveable, beautiful and noble woman. O Nanak, through the Naam, the happy soul-bride unites with the Lord of Union. || 2 || PAUREE: Lord, everyone sings Your Praises. You have freed us from bondage. Lord, everyone bows in reverence to You. You have saved us from our sinful ways. Lord, You are the Honor of the dishonored. Lord, You are the Strongest of the strong. The Lord beats down the egocentrics and corrects the foolish, self-willed manmukhs. The Lord bestows glorious greatness on His devotees, the poor, and the lost souls. || 17 || SHALOK, THIRD MEHL: One who walks in harmony with the Will of the True Guru, obtains the greatest glory. The Exalted Name of the Lord abides in his mind, and no one can take it away. That person, upon whom the Lord bestows His Grace, receives His Mercy. O Nanak, creativity is under the control of the Creator; how rare are those who, as Gurmukh, realize this! || 1 || THIRD MEHL: O Nanak, those who worship and adore the Lord’s Name night and day, vibrate the String of the Lord’s Love. Maya, the maid-servant of our Lord and Master, serves them. The Perfect One has made them perfect; by the Hukam of His Command, they are embellished. By Guru’s Grace, they understand Him, and they find the gate of salvation. The self-willed manmukhs do not know the Lord’s Command; they are beaten down by the Messenger of Death. But the Gurmukhs, who worship and adore the Lord, cross over the terrifying world-ocean. All their demerits are erased, and replaced with merits. The Guru Himself is their Forgiver. || 2 || PAUREE: The Lord’s devotees have faith in Him. The Lord knows everything. No one is as great a Knower as the Lord; the Lord administers righteous justice. Why should we feel any burning anxiety, since the Lord does not punish without just cause? True is the Master, and True is His Justice; only the sinners are defeated. O devotees, praise the Lord with your palms pressed together; the Lord saves His humble devotees. || 18 || SHALOK, THIRD MEHL: Oh, if only I could meet my Beloved, and keep Him enshrined deep within my heart! I praise that God forever and ever, through love and affection for the Guru. O Nanak, that one upon whom He bestows His Glance of Grace is united with Him; such a person is the true soul-bride of the Lord. || 1 || THIRD MEHL: Serving the Guru, the Lord is obtained, when He bestows His Glance of Grace. They are transformed from humans into angels, meditating on the Naam, the Name of the Lord. They conquer their egotism and merge with the Lord; they are saved through the Word of the Guru’s Shabad. O Nanak, they merge imperceptibly into the Lord, who has bestowed His Favor upon them. || 2 || PAUREE: The Lord Himself inspires us to worship Him; He reveals His Glorious Greatness. He Himself inspires us to place our faith in Him. Thus He performs His Own Service. The Lord bestows bliss upon His devotees, and gives them a seat in the eternal home. He does not give the sinners any stability or place of rest; He consigns them to the depths of hell. The Lord blesses His devotees with His Love; He sides with them and saves them. || 19 || SHALOK, FIRST MEHL: False-mindedness is the drummer-woman; cruelty is the butcheress; slander of others in one’s heart is the cleaning-woman, and deceitful anger is the outcast-woman. What good are the ceremonial lines drawn around your kitchen, when these four are seated there with you? Make Truth your self-discipline, and make good deeds the lines you draw; make chanting the Name your cleansing bath. O Nanak, those who do not walk in the ways of sin, shall be exalted in the world hereafter. || 1 || FIRST MEHL: Which is the swan, and which is the crane? It is only by His Glance of Grace. Whoever is pleasing to Him, O Nanak, is transformed from a crow into a swan. || 2 ||
     
    • Like Like x 1
    #1 Ishna, Jan 5, 2013
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2013
  2. Loading...

    Similar Threads Forum Date
    General Help! Looking for a good clairvoyant/card reader......any suggestions? Please Blogs Jan 25, 2016
    Ways to Connect to The Guru - Suggestions? Questions and Answers May 27, 2014
    Turban Day Suggestions? Sikh Sikhi Sikhism Mar 22, 2013
    SciTech Rocks found on Mars suggest water existed Breaking News Sep 29, 2012
    Christianity Jesus May Have Had a Wife, Ancient Text Suggests Interfaith Dialogues Sep 21, 2012

  3. Gyani Jarnail Singh

    Gyani Jarnail Singh Malaysia
    Expand Collapse
    Sawa lakh se EK larraoan
    Mentor Writer SPNer Contributor

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2004
    Messages:
    7,623
    Likes Received:
    14,188
    THE translator IS THE ONE GIVING THAT IMPRESSION JI...

    PROF SAHIB SINGHS PUNJABI DARPAN..doesnt give that impression at all...!!!!

    The "Head" that doesnt bow...to HIM...is WORTHLESS...(discard it ) THATS exactly what we all supposedly DO when we Matha TEK to SGGS...we supposedly "DISCARD" our HEAD (Manmatt) and Take back GURUMATT !! The BODY that does not have the Creators GUNNAS..is WORTHLESS....rubbish...and we do routinely burn rubbish dont we ??

    READ in the GURBANI and PUNJABI CONTEXT..the Tuks are perfectly in line with the rest of SGGS...but the way the TRANSLATOR...translated..they do seem "Abrahams vengeful god types.." sorry..WRONG GOD !!

    BTW Sheikh farid Ji also says the same thing about the Unbowing head...cut it off and throw it away ( BUT this is a SELF ACTION....NOT an order for someone like the TALIBAN to do it on OTHERS HEADS !!! ABRAHAMS GOD doenst CUT his own head..He orders others heads cut..or other cities destroyed..The GOD of SGGS NEVER ORDERED any Bhai to SACRIFICE his SON...Guru Gobind Singh Ji sacrificed his 4 sons of his own FREE WILL...not because His God asked him to...as Abrahams God did....and UNLIKE Abrahams God...GGS God DID NOT then ask GGS to sacrifice a GOAT instead of the 4 sons...lots of differences..
     
    • Like Like x 5
  4. Harry Haller

    Harry Haller United Kingdom
    Expand Collapse

    Moderator

    Writer SPNer Contributor

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2011
    Messages:
    5,119
    Likes Received:
    7,945
    I have read translations that are written in the spirit of the Bible, including usage of similar words. I think sometimes the translators get carried away..........
     
    • Like Like x 4
  5. Ishna

    Ishna
    Expand Collapse
    On hiatus
    Writer SPNer Contributor

    Joined:
    May 9, 2006
    Messages:
    2,942
    Likes Received:
    5,002
    Hmm, both translations at SriGranth give that impression. :S I give up with English translations then. There is nothing to be learned. Classical Punjabi it is then.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  6. Luckysingh

    Luckysingh Canada
    Expand Collapse
    Writer SPNer

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2011
    Messages:
    1,634
    Likes Received:
    2,749
    Sometimes it is easier to get the messages across in this style of translation.
    I wouldn't treat it as a wrong translation, but I would rather simplify it to your own personal understanding.

    Personally I have absolutely no problem when these kind of terms are used or even when there is talk of angels and similar which is on the other thread.
    People not so educated, informed or wise find it easier to understand actions and consequences when these descriptions are used.

    Maybe it's just my school bible upbringing that makes me more accomadating for abrahamic talk !!!!
     
    • Like Like x 1
  7. Brother Onam

    Brother Onam United States
    Expand Collapse
    Writer SPNer Contributor

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2012
    Messages:
    272
    Likes Received:
    636
    I always find it funny when I see writers, translating punjabi in the 20th century, using ''thee" and "thou" terminology -17th century british-, because it sounds 'holy'.
     
    • Like Like x 3
  8. Luckysingh

    Luckysingh Canada
    Expand Collapse
    Writer SPNer

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2011
    Messages:
    1,634
    Likes Received:
    2,749
    thou shall read the words of the Lord and thy shall be done
    winkingmunda
     
  9. Gyani Jarnail Singh

    Gyani Jarnail Singh Malaysia
    Expand Collapse
    Sawa lakh se EK larraoan
    Mentor Writer SPNer Contributor

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2004
    Messages:
    7,623
    Likes Received:
    14,188
    Thats WHY we get all those...Maala wearing sehli topis cholas and stuff...in certain minds..THAT IS THE OFFICIAL UNIFORM of a HOLY MAN...so how could Guru nanak Ji be NOT having maals upon maaals..or sehli topi on hsi head..etc etc

    Thats why we get entangled in Vedas and Puraans and Korans abd Bibles...How dare Guru nanak ji walk a DIFFERENT PATH..its not religious" at all....

    Its Just not done..a Holy man has to wear Orange..White..Black..GREEN....a Holy Man has to act a certain way, dress a certain way..walk a certain way..talk a certain way...CONFORM !!!

    GURU NANAK did NOT conform..He walked a new Path...used New techniques - GO TO where the Crowds are to preach...( not wait for people to gather around him)...DO THE EXACT OPPOSITE to teach and attract attention..GO to the CENTRAL HQ and catch the bull by its horns...Hardwaar, Sri lanka, Badrinath, Kanshi, Jaganath Puri..Mecca Medina Baghdad etc etc

    THis is why anyone attempting to understand the GURBANI of Guru nanak must be revolutionary minded...able to think out of the box..cut all ties to established paths and walk the new path..the unbeaten path..he must remove any colored spectacles and see FRESH SKIES (that are NOT BLUE !!) Every one sees the BLUE SKY...but those who dare to fly high enough will see that the SKY is actually BLACK !! That is how high one has to fly before one can see what actually GURU NANAK JI is saying...all those who are satisfied sitting at Ground level..CANNOT escape the Blue sky...
     
    • Like Like x 3
  10. Scarlet Pimpernel

    Scarlet Pimpernel
    Expand Collapse
    We seek him here,we sikh
    SPNer Supporter

    Joined:
    May 31, 2011
    Messages:
    978
    Likes Received:
    1,081
    Isi Even Abrahams God is constrained in that he is God ,which then presupposes that he can do no wrong lest he no longer be rightly called God.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  11. Harry Haller

    Harry Haller United Kingdom
    Expand Collapse

    Moderator

    Writer SPNer Contributor

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2011
    Messages:
    5,119
    Likes Received:
    7,945
    Allow me to quote the bible brother

    The LORD is a jealous God, filled with vengeance and wrath. He takes revenge on all who oppose him and furiously destroys his enemies! The LORD is slow to get angry, but his power is great, and he never lets the guilty go unpunished. He displays his power in the whirlwind and the storm. The billowing clouds are the dust beneath his feet. At his command the oceans and rivers dry up, the lush pastures of Bashan and Carmel fade, and the green forests of Lebanon wilt. In his presence the mountains quake, and the hills melt away; the earth trembles, and its people are destroyed. Who can stand before his fierce anger? Who can survive his burning fury? His rage blazes forth like fire, and the mountains crumble to dust in his presence. The LORD is good. When trouble comes, he is a strong refuge. And he knows everyone who trusts in him. But he sweeps away his enemies in an overwhelming flood. He pursues his foes into the darkness of night. (Nahum 1:2-8 NLT)

    I do not recognise such a being as God, that is why this being is referred to as an Abrahamic God, and why I am a Sikh
     
    • Like Like x 3
  12. Scarlet Pimpernel

    Scarlet Pimpernel
    Expand Collapse
    We seek him here,we sikh
    SPNer Supporter

    Joined:
    May 31, 2011
    Messages:
    978
    Likes Received:
    1,081
    Veer Ji He cannot be Referred to easily ,nor can he be Labelled and in his Narrative he is both notional and relational.
     
    #11 Scarlet Pimpernel, Jan 7, 2013
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2013
  13. Harry Haller

    Harry Haller United Kingdom
    Expand Collapse

    Moderator

    Writer SPNer Contributor

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2011
    Messages:
    5,119
    Likes Received:
    7,945
    you just did, and constantly dolol

    but which narrative? the Abrahamic God shows evidence of thieves being present, I prefer the narrative of the Sikh God
     
    • Like Like x 3
  14. Scarlet Pimpernel

    Scarlet Pimpernel
    Expand Collapse
    We seek him here,we sikh
    SPNer Supporter

    Joined:
    May 31, 2011
    Messages:
    978
    Likes Received:
    1,081
    Veer Ji don't presuppose they are different,I don't see why he can't be angry and not angry at the same time.
     
  15. Harry Haller

    Harry Haller United Kingdom
    Expand Collapse

    Moderator

    Writer SPNer Contributor

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2011
    Messages:
    5,119
    Likes Received:
    7,945
    Spji,

    I know your posts can be cryptic, but let us look at this statement in a bit more depth.

    The following is from the bible,
    Lo, a day shall come for the Lord when the spoils shall be divided in your midst. And I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem for battle: the city shall be taken, houses plundered, women ravished; half of the city shall go into exile, but the rest of the people shall not be removed from the city. (Zechariah 14:1-2 NAB)

    The fact is that whether he can be angry or not angry at the same time is irrelevent. The words as written above justify and encourage others to be angry, to plunder and rape women. Find me anything that comes close to this in the SGGS...

    Do you know what the trouble with duality is? it is everything, but it is also nothing
     
  16. spnadmin

    spnadmin United States
    Expand Collapse
    1947-2014 (Archived)
    SPNer Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2004
    Messages:
    14,551
    Likes Received:
    19,200
    My impression was that Scarlet Pimpernel was illustrating how the Abrahamic god does demonstrate anger and no anger within the same space of time. In contrast to.... the Sikh vision of god who is without enmity and without fear/nirbhao and nirvair. He will of course correct me if I mistook his words, and yes I hope it is not too cryptic.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  17. Harry Haller

    Harry Haller United Kingdom
    Expand Collapse

    Moderator

    Writer SPNer Contributor

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2011
    Messages:
    5,119
    Likes Received:
    7,945
    Those that do not possess the ability to differentiate such a difficult concept will see only anger, as the crusades demonstrated.

    If this was indeed SPji's illustration, perhaps I could be enlightened by him as to how one demonstrates anger and no anger within the same space of time, say raping and pillaging, but with medicines and bandages at the ready, or words of sympathy, or is it just a concept that sounds good but is actually meaningless.

    Actually this ties in quite nicely with those that rape and pillage in the name of God, but when caught, proclaim that they were merely carrying out Gods will.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  18. Scarlet Pimpernel

    Scarlet Pimpernel
    Expand Collapse
    We seek him here,we sikh
    SPNer Supporter

    Joined:
    May 31, 2011
    Messages:
    978
    Likes Received:
    1,081
    Veer Ji Let us make things light,why is God not afraid?
    Because he's not married!
     
    • Like Like x 2
    #17 Scarlet Pimpernel, Jan 7, 2013
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2013
  19. spnadmin

    spnadmin United States
    Expand Collapse
    1947-2014 (Archived)
    SPNer Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2004
    Messages:
    14,551
    Likes Received:
    19,200
    Oh no! Not again! The tree that fell in the Black Forest revisits the forum! Kind of like Jason in Friday the 13th?
     
    • Like Like x 1
  20. Randip Singh

    Randip Singh
    Expand Collapse
    SPN Sewadaar
    Historian SPNer Supporter

    Joined:
    May 25, 2005
    Messages:
    2,949
    Likes Received:
    2,952
    This is poor translations as has been stated in other posts.

    Alway bear in mind the opening line of the Sikh prayer:

    Ek Onkar Satnam

    There is but one reality/constant/god, it's name is truth

    Truth seems to have this effect on people. People fall infront of the truth. It drives away falsehood. It drives away selfwill. Once people realise this truth there is no room in them for superfulous the 5 thieves.

    One could say the Abrahamic sense see's God firing bolts down etc, the Sikh concept is totally different from this. It is about within. Once you realise the truth within you, it drives out everything else.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  21. Scarlet Pimpernel

    Scarlet Pimpernel
    Expand Collapse
    We seek him here,we sikh
    SPNer Supporter

    Joined:
    May 31, 2011
    Messages:
    978
    Likes Received:
    1,081
    Veer Ji I can't explain the question you posed about man as he and i can be in error ,but a God who makes errors is not God,I also think he might be an Insurance company as everyone calls him when they're in trouble and everyone keeps sending off their premiums religiously.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    #20 Scarlet Pimpernel, Jan 7, 2013
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2013

Share This Page