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Gurus Parkash Divas of Guru Gobind Singh : Celebrating with Uncertainty

Discussion in 'History of Sikhism' started by spnadmin, Dec 19, 2010.

  1. spnadmin

    spnadmin United States
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    By some historical accounts Guru Gobind Singh was born on December 22, 1666. The gurpurab of his birth is given as the 7th day in the Desi month of Poh, according to the Hindu Bikrami Calendar.

    According to the Nanakshahi Calendar (Purewal, 2003), Guru Gobind Singh’s birthday falls each year on January 5.

    When should we celebrate the gurpurab of his parkash? At first blush, it seems the dates given for the gurpurab will differ depending on whether one is observing the Hindu Bikrami Calendar, or the Nanakshahi Calendar. Why not just decide on a day and move forward? The 7th day of Poh is always the 7th day of the month of Poh. There should not be any uncertainty. Why would fixing a date for the gurpurab pose a problem, if there is a problem?

    The Problem


    The date of December 22 will be true only in some years; the gurpurab can also fall sometime uncertain in January. This means that adherence to the Bikrami Calendar requires some degree of flexibility, as the date can never be fixed. To keep the matter even more unsettled, Parkash Guru Gobind Singh can fall twice in one year.

    Then why not observe the gurpurab according to the Nanakashahi Calendar? There the date is fixed. The 5th day of January is always the 5th day of January. There should not be any confusion. Why would fixing the gurpurab pose a problem on that end?

    This article examines some of the reasons for uncertainty about the parkash of Guru Gobind Singh.

    Parkash Guru Gobind Singh and the Bikrami Calendar

    A Bikrami, or Desi year, is a solar year which starts on the 13 of March (Gregorian). The Bikrami calendar is about 57.7 years beyond the Gregorian Calendar. This means that the year 2000 corresponds approximately to Bikram Samvat 2057, and therefore we are currently in Bikram Samvat 2067. A Bikram Samvat, or Desi year, is a solar year just like the Gregorian Calendar. However some of its months consist of 30 days, some 31 days, and others 32 days in length. However, this is not the reason why its gurpurabs are not fixed.

    The date of December 22 itself makes certain assumptions that are not altogether valid. All gurpurabs are subject to the start of the Bikrami calendar which begins with the first day after the new moon in the month of Kartika, sometime in October or November. This means that the Bikram Samvat varies when aligned to its Gregorian counterpart. Therefore, any correspondence between the month of Poh and the month of December is at best rough. The use of “December” in giving the birth date is an attempt to align with the Gregorian Calendar, which has been used over many generations by the Western world. Poh begins this year in 2010 on December 16, but the start and end of Poh, in any year, can vary from mid December through mid January, and anyone born at the middle to end of Poh would conceivably celebrate a birthday in December in some years and in January in other years.

    Thus the gurpurab of Guru Gobind Singh can fall in December or in January (or not at all) using the Bikram Samvat system. Examples of 11 dates for Guruji's birth follow: December 24, 1990; January 12, 1992; December 31, 1993; January 19, 1994; January 7, 1995; December 28, 1995; January 15, 1997; December 25, 1998; and January 14, 2000 (http://www.allaboutsikhs.com/sikh-calendar/the-sikh-nanakshahi-calendar.html).

    Two gurpurabs in 1996 are likely the result of there being 2 new moons in that year during the month of December.

    The Nanakshahi Calendar, an alternative (Purewal version)

    The Nanakshahi Calendar was developed by Pal Singh Purewal to remedy the confusion created by movable gurpurabs. Until the 13th of March, 1998, the Bikrami Calendar was used by Sikhs to determine gurpurabs. Currently, or more precisely until January of this year, we used the Nanakshahi Calendar which begins on March 14 Gregorian (which is 1 Chet 531 Nanakshahi). The calendar is aligned with the Gregorian calendar as follows: it begins with the birth of Guru Nanak, taking (1 Chet 531 Nanakshahi ) as the date of his birth. Gurpurabs are fixed relative to the Gregorian Calendar. This makes the start of the year, and the birthday of Guru Nanak, fixed as 1 Chet and as March 15. There is no variation, as all other gurpurabs are also fixed dates.

    Pal Singh Purewal described the importance of revising the traditional Bikrami Calendar thus:

    The days in the months are not fixed. The number can vary from 31-32 days for the summer months and from 29-30 days for winter months. The rules for determination of Sankrantis, beginning of the months, is complicated and public have to rely on Jantri publishers for such a simple thing as the beginning of a month. ... The lunar portion of the calendar, according to which most of the religious festivals are fixed, has its share of peculiarities. Since it is based on 12 months of the lunar cycle (full moon to full moon or new moon to new moon), its year length is about 11 days shorter than that of the solar year. Therefore, its year begins 11 days earlier in the following year in relation to the solar year. This is why the Gurpurb dates shift by about 11 days from one year to the other. This is not the end. To keep the lunar year in step with the solar year, every two or three years an extra month is added to the lunar year. This month is called malmas or intercalary month. That lunar year contains 384 or so days. This makes the Gurpurb dates to occur by about 18 or 19 days later when such a month is introduced. The month of Jeth that will occur in 1999 CE will be intercalated, i.e., there would be two months of Jeth, one Sudha and the other Mal. In the malmas or the extra month religious festivals are not celebrated. This is quite a complicated set up, and is also contrary to the philosophy of Gurbani according to which no month in itself is good or bad (http://www.allaboutsikhs.com/sikh-calendar/the-sikh-nanakshahi-calendar.html).

    The Nanakshahi calendar does not fix all celebrations. Diwali and Hola Mohalla continue to be determined using the Bikrami calendar (http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/sikhism/customs/nanakshahi.shtml).

    Today

    The problems have not been resolved.

    In October 2009, The Tribune reported that the Nanakshai Calendar, ever at the time when it was officially released in 2003, was opposed by various Sikh sects, including the Sant Samaj and Damdami Taksal. A secret meeting of Sikh “clergy” was held at Akal Takht, and including the Jathedar of Takht Damdama Sahib. The goal was to put an end to an issue that divided the Sikh world, namely, a calendar that did not conform to the traditional lunar system. Many surmised that the meeting had “poliltical overtones” as elections approached (http://www.tribuneindia.com/2009/20091017/main5.htm).

    In January 2010 ammendments to the Nanakshahi calendar were approved by the Shiromani Gurdwara Parbandhak Committee.

    Giani Jathedar Gurbachan Singh justified the changes saying these would bring about unity in the community. SGPC head Avtar Singh Makkar had echoed the sentiments on Sunday. “Some takhts and the Sant Samaj were opposed to the calendar and these changes will help satisfy them,” the jathedar said (http://www.expressindia.com/latest-...eal-on-changes-in-nanakshahi-calendar/563543/).

    The revisions​

    The conclusion was to create what are now 2 Nanakshahi Calendars. One is the 2003 version based on scientific calculations of Pal Singh Purewal, a calendar that can be followed yearly, without consulting planetary charts, because it makes firm the dates for most gurpurabs. The second is also referred to as the Nanakshahi Calendar as amended, and approved by Akal Takht in 2010. It is essentially an amended Bikrami Calendar.

    … now Sikh community would follow all the Sikh religious occasions including birth and death anniversaries of Sikh masters as per new amendments which were approved by Akal Takht. Now the Nanak Shahi Calendar with latest amendments would come in practice after two month in March…As per new amendments, some important days like the birth anniversary of tenth Sikh master Guru Gobind Singh, Gurta Gaddi Divas and Jyoti Jot Samaun Divas of Guru Gobind Singh would be observed as per the old traditional Bikrami calendar (http://www.punjabnewsline.com/content/view/22341/38/).

    And the reaction ​

    Many expressed reservations.​
    The Institute of Sikh Studies, the International Sikh Confederation and the Kendri Guru Singh Sabha, Chandigarh, also expressed “disappointment” over the decision of the SGPC executive committee to modify the calendar. “Modifications approved by the SGPC executive committee have totally changed the character of the calendar,” said Pritam Singh, president, Institute of Sikh Studies.

    The Nanakshahi calendar had been framed after thorough research and deliberations in which a large segment of Sikhs from across the globe took part. Learned persons, irrespective of their religious beliefs, were consulted in framing the final draft of the calendar. This was thoughtfully studied and unanimously approved by the general body of the SGPC and the Jathedars before it was implemented. Making major modifications without consulting all sections of the Sikh Panth is totally unjustified,” he added. “ We earnestly appeal to our Jathedars not to issue any edict in this regard and thereby preserve the unity of the Sikh religion until wider consultations are instituted," said Baljit Kaur, secretary, Kendri Guru Singh Sabha, Chandigarh
    (http://www.indianexpress.com/news/a...eal-on-changes-in-nanakshahi-calendar/563543/).

    Sant Samaj was pleased with the outcome.​

    The Sant Samaj, meanwhile, gathered in Sarmastpur Gurdwara near Jalandhar and appreciated the changes made in the calendar and also thanked the SGPC and Deputy CM Sukhbir Badal for their efforts to pursue the required changes. Damdami Taksal and Sant Samaj chief Harnam Singh Dhumma said the remaining issues related to the religion should also be sorted out through discussions (http://www.indianexpress.com/news/a...eal-on-changes-in-nanakshahi-calendar/563543/).

    In conclusion

    The panth may or may not be satisfied that the matter of calendars has been handled with wisdom. The date of the gurpurab has been settled. Or has it? It depends on the calendar one chosoes to consult. The revisions to the Nanakshahi Calendar can be soft-peddled, but only for those who are not aware that the calendar officially titled "Nanakshahi Calendar" on the SGPC website is not so different from its traditional Bikram counterpart. Only the gurpurabs for the birth of Guru Nanak and the martyrdom of Guru Arjan Dev are now fixed. The others are movable. The Nanakshahi Calendar that was made official in 2003, and was greeted with broad acceptance by gurdwaras worldwide and established Sikh scholars, was said in 2009 to divide the panth, from Sant Samaj and Damdami Taksal most notably. What exactly has been settled?


    Definitions


    Gregorian Calendar The Gregorian calendar, also known as the Western calendar or the Christian calendar, is the internationally accepted civil calendar.

    Bikrami or Desi Calendar A Bikrami, or Desi year, is a solar year which starts on the 13 of March, or the start of Spring, and consists of 365 days. Some of its months consists of 30 days, some are of 31 and others are of 32 days. This calendar is in traditional use in Punjab (both in India and Pakistan). Later the use was changed to other calendars including the Islamic calendar, the Nanakshahi calendar and the Gregorian Calendar.

    Related links at Sikh Philosophy Network

    Sikh bodies to gherao Makkar over changes in Nanakshahi calendar

    Tampering with Nanakshahi Calendar Unacceptable Unbearable says Sikh Youth of Punjab
    Sikh Clergy to Scrap Nanakshahi Calendar?
    The Nanakshahi Calendar
    Nanakshahi - The Sikh Calendar

    References

    Akal Takht gives final nod to amendments in Nanak Shahi Calendar, Satinder Bains
    http://www.punjabnewsline.com/content/view/22341/38/

    Akal Takht puts final seal on changes in Nanakshahi calendar

    A. http://www.expressindia.com/latest-...eal-on-changes-in-nanakshahi-calendar/563543/
    B. http://www.indianexpress.com/news/a...eal-on-changes-in-nanakshahi-calendar/563543/

    Nanakshahi Calendar, by Pal Singh Purewal

    A. http://www.allaboutsikhs.com/sikh-calendar/the-sikh-nanakshahi-calendar-1.html
    B. http://www.allaboutsikhs.com/sikh-calendar/the-sikh-nanakshahi-calendar.html

    Sikh Calendar,
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/sikhism/customs/nanakshahi.shtml
    Sikh Clergy to Scrap Nanakshahi Calendar, Varinder Singh
    http://www.tribuneindia.com/2009/20091017/main5.htm

    Note: All material directed quoted is in italic font.
     

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  3. Gyani Jarnail Singh

    Gyani Jarnail Singh Malaysia
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    Re: Parkash Guru Gobind Singh: Celebrating with Uncertainty

    Earlier when the Sikh Panth was largely concentrated in India, it wanst much of a"problem" even though the SGPC/Sikh Printers of Calendars jantrees diaries etc were FORCED to WAIT for the BENARAS PANDITS to issue the current Bikrmi/Saka Calendar. Sometimes it would be LATE and sangats would await the Benaras go ahead eagerly to celebrate the Gurpurabs especially those that happened to be in the January/Feb months..

    2. Secondly no body botherted much when the Guru Gobind Singh Parkash came TWICE in one year and NONE in the Following YEAR !!

    3. THEN SIKHS began to MIGRATE and settle abroad in larger and larger numbers...the SIKH DIASPORA swelled in numbers...the Sikhs began to get RECOGNITION as a SEPARATE KAUM..and the Governments OUTSIDE of INDIA began to ask the SIKHS to be SPECIFIC about their religious Holidays and Gupurabs....and this is when the "PROBLEM" became not only OBVIOUS..but also a serious pain in the neck. Every one else has the Holidays FIXED...even though no one knows the Birthday of Christ..the Christians fixed dec 25 for eternity as Christmas...similarly Jews, etc had their Holy days Fixed and PUBLISHED in Govt Calendars, School events etc years in advance. One of the earlies Holidays widely accepted as SIKH was the Vasakhi Holiday....and that too wasnt spared the Bikrmi anamoly...some years it happened to fall on April 13..others it was on APRIL 14 !!! now which is which ?? Simialrly Gurpurabs etc kept changing DATES each YEAR...Sangrands and pooranmashis which ahve absolutley no significance in Gurmatt were however very PROMINENTLY PRINTED on Bikrmi Calendars and Jantrees...

    4 Thus way back in 2003 the Sikhs in WORLDWIDE CONSULTATIONS with Sikhs everywhere, under the leadership of the SGPC, the AKAL TAKHAT and the Three Takhats in Punjab, decided to issue a NANAKSHAHEE CALENDAR in which ALL the Gurpurabs were FIXED for ever. The SANT BABA LOBBY tried to throw spanners in the works, but only managed a FEEBLE attempt when they managed to keep the GURU NANAK PARKASH GURPURAB on the WRONG DATE in November (instead of the Correct April 1st), and also managed to slip in the SANGRANDS. The Panth "accepted" these under protest, thinking over time these anomalies would be CORRECTED. Little did anyoen know that the SANT SAMAAJ in collusion with the Two Takhats outside Punjab that are non sikh dominated and controlled by the GOI would be quietly working underground to DEFEAT the Nanaksahi calendar. Slowly but surely these anti-Sikh forces managed to infiltrate the SGPC and the Akal Takhat via the Badal Regime and thus destroyed the Nanaksahi Calendar and put the Guru khalsa Panth back under the RSS BENARAS THUMB.
    To FURTHER ERODE whatever is left the various dates of the Gurpurabs keep CHANGING even as announced in their own Bikrmi Calendar....the Guru teg Bahadur Shaheedee was supposed to be celebrated on Nov 24 as per the Bikrmi Calendar..but was postponed to DEC 10..ostensibly because the SIKHS had just celebrated the Guru nanak ji Gurpurab on November 19th and that made the Sikhs WEARY !! The Paraksh of Guru gobind Singh ji will NOW come TWICE in 2011 and NONE in 2012 !!

    WHILE even the Benaras Pandits DONT KNOW when the 2012 Gurpurabs will be..even a CHILD knows that the Gurpurabs a THOUSAND YEARS from TODAY.... in 3012 will be on such and such a day if the GENUINE 2003 nanakshahee Calendar is used !! Which is RIGHT for the PANTH ?? you DECIDE.
     
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  4. spnadmin

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    Re: Parkash Guru Gobind Singh: Celebrating with Uncertainty

    I would like to mention one more source of confusion. It is important because one will find on the net references to the Bikrami Calendar being a "solar" calendar, and it has lunar characteristics as well. The calendar is solar because it is based on 365 days, as the earth revolves around the sun. The lunar component comes into play because the actual months are set by the start of the year, which is not fixed; it depends on the date of the new moon at the start of Spring.

    There are other interesting points that contribute to even more variation between the Bikrami Calendar and other calendars in use in India. For example, the calendar is set according to the alignment of Northern India with the sidereal or star map of the sky, in relation to the equator. This is several degrees at variance with the alignment of other parts of India, and with other traditional Indian calendars. This in turn will influence the day on which one month ends and another starts. Thus the 7th day of Poh can vary and does vary from year to year.

    These images give the movable and fixed dates on the 2003 Nanakshahi Calendar
     

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  5. Jasbir

    Jasbir
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    All the dates whether according to Bikarmi or NanakShahi callenders are arbitrary. No one really knows the real date and especially as per Birarmi Callender they change every year it is never the real day we are celebrating. Therfore the actual date is is not that important. What is important is that we celebrate Guru ji life, understand their teachings and live our lives accordingly. As long as we do that it does not matter on what day we do it. It makes sense to fix the dates according to the callender which we use in our daily lives for everything else. Also adopting the nanakshahi callender will distance us from the Hindu philosophy of good and bad days as the Gurbani tells us. This is an unnecessary distraction and keeps the Sikhs from concentration on important things like how to stop our youth becoming patits in droves.
     
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  6. findingmyway

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    Extremely interesting!! It seems very disrespectful to keep moving the Gurpurbs at whim. If the dates are fixed, those memories can be honoured with full respect and energy is not wasted. Calendars are supposed to be practical. If we are wasting time on lunar systems and astrology then we are going against Gurbani and getting caught up in useless activities that take us away from practising naam!
     
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  7. spnadmin

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    Jasbir ji

    Though I agree with you in principle, here is a problem. There is no longer "will distance us from the Hindu philosophy of good and bad days." We are back to the Bikrami Calendar for all intents in purposes. It has been re-packaged and retitled as the "revised Nanakshahi Calendar." But the 2003 Calendar has been repealed, and the movable, Hindu dates substituted. The negative emotions that surround this are legitimate. The changes were made to appease sanatan interests in India.
     
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  8. Gurmit Singh

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    Respected SPN Members,

    Waheguru jee ka Khalsa Waheguru jee kee Fateh

    Gurbaani enshrined in the Guru Granth Sahib reminds us daily that Birth and Death, is the prerogative of God, and we are required to lead life in accordance with the Divine Command. We are also advised that -

    GGS Page 91 - Bhagat Kabir Jee says:
    "Janani Jaanat Sutt Badda Hoet Hai Etna Kau Na Janaiy Je Din Din Avadh Ghatatt Hai".

    At page 284, Guru Arjan Sahib says:
    "Pita Ka Janam Ke Janaiy Poot.." [Gauri sukhmani 3.16]

    On the other hand, SGPC and Akall Takht Sahib's Head Minister have been changing Dates as if Akall Purkh has given them the "Letter of Authority" ! Could they change their own Birthday Dates? Will they look into their own educational certificates, service records, Passports, Driver Licence, etc. as to whether their Dates of birth are shown in Desi months or CE Calendar? Have they ever objected?

    While changing Date 5 January (?1667 or 2004), it looks as if Guru Gobind Singh is going to take another Birth on 11 January 2011, though exact Date could have been chosen out of the followings -

    18 December 1661: Dr. Gopal Singh, Dr. Sangat Singh, Dr. Harjinder Singh Dilgeer;
    22 December 1666: Bhai Kahn Singh, Prof. Sahib Singh, Dr. Hari Ram Gupta,
    Principal Satbir Singh, Late Patwant Singh, Encyclopaedia of Sikhism by Punjabi Uni Patiala, S. Pal Singh Purewal, Canada;

    26 December 1666: Dr. Ganda Singh and Author Khushwant Singh

    In fact, the Sikhs all over the world remember the Teachings of all Gurus Sahibaan and Bhagats daily and there is hardly any need to celebrate Birth Days, though it suits SGPC and other Parbandhaks for generating over-flowing Golucks on such occasions. Then why to miss any opportunity ?

    Sikhs should celebrate Gurgaddi Divas, and not to imitate the adherents of other religions. If at all there is any compulsion, then why go on changing the Dates?

    Why not then celebrate on 22 December (1666) but it does not suit SGPC as
    that Date also happens to be the Martyrdom Date of elder Sahibzadas at
    Chamkaur Sahib? Hence, SGPC wishes us to entangle in Desi Months when
    any Sikh hardly follows those months mentioned in the Indian National Calendar accepted in 1957 !

    Gurmit Singh
     
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  9. Gyani Jarnail Singh

    Gyani Jarnail Singh Malaysia
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    The "real problem" is that the....dates traditionally used are NOT really SOLAR and not really LUNAR....they are a MIXTURE !! Example the Guru Gobind Singh Parkash in Patna Sahib took place on 23 POH..(Solar) and attached to this is SUDEE 7 (LUNAR). Thus its Neither Solar nor Lunar but LUNI-SOLAR !! 344 years ago these dates came on the SAME DAY..but not nay more... Now this UNIQUE COMBINATION is IMPOSSIBLE to get back especially since the GREGORIAN Calendar was ADVANCED by two weeks some years back.

    2. The Islamic World uses the PURE LUNAR CALENDAR..and thus each year their dates advance by 11 days..and after a lapse of 33 years the ORIGINAL Dates come again. This is becasue the Lunar year is SHORTER than the SOLAR by 11 Days or so...

    3. Our trouble arises becasue our "authorities" insist on using the Combined LUNI-SOLAR Calendar...and this calendar loses 11 days a year and after 2 years short by 22 days...so the "wise ones in Benaras" ADD an EXTRA MONTH to make up !! and this 13th MONTH is ASUBH..or BAD...and UNLUCKY !! Nothing good ever comes out of this extra month ....( And GURU NANAK jis was "BORN" in this "extra" month that is asubh , bad and unlucky...and this "BIRTH" in Katak is placed there by the Bhai Bala janasakhi which is fiction and the reason to place Baba Nanak jis birth in that particular bad month is to show that He wasnt a True Man of God while the MINAS and Hnadalis descendants of the PRITHI CHAND were born in good months and thus more suitable to be GURUS !!..see the vile connection and lengths these people go to promote their Babas sri chands, prithiyas and the rest of the REJECTED disobedient sons of the Gurus). Sorry to digress..Back to the buisness in hand...
    Thus in the year 2012 the LUNISOLAR Calendar will have 13 Months..and thus the Gurpurab of Guur Gobind Singh Jis Parkash will come TWICE...Once early in the YEAR..and secondly Late in the Year....and thus in 2013...there will be NO GGS Paraksh Ushtav at all !!! See the "beauty" of the LUNISOLAR MESS ????

    3. In 1666 the Poh 23 of the Solar Bikrmi Calendar and the Sudee 7 of the LUNI-SOLAR Calendar came on the 22nd DECEMBER of the JULIAN CALENDAR. These dates came on the Same day in 1685 once more..........BUT WILL NEVER COME AGAIN for THOUSAND YEARS..becasue in 1752 the JULIAN Calendar was discarded and the NEW GREGORIAN Calendar was introduced....in 1752 on the 3rd of SEPTEMBER...MISSING 11 days were ADDED and the NEXT DAY was declared the 14th of September, 1752. In the past Century these three dates COINCIDED only FOUR times...in 1903, 1949, 1968 and 1987)
    and will again COINCIDE on 7th January 2014..and then again on January 7th 2025 !!

    . SO obviously we CANNOT WAIT for these three dates to COINCIDE each time we wnat to celebrate the Gurpurab....and we can CHOOSE any one date....and IF we choose the 23 POH date.of the SOLAR BIKRMI.or the 22nd december date of the GREGORIAN INTERNATIONAL WORLDWIDE Calendar...and DISCARD the Wadee sudee chakar of the LUNAR BIKRMI...we DONT LOSE anything..we dont suffer any consequences.... WE GAIN EVERYTHING becasue we get into Tandem with the rest of the WORLD !!

    5. BUT then who LOSES if we do that ?? Obvioulsy someone loses...and we dont need a rocket scientist to figure that out ??? Now the 64 million dollar question is WHY are our own "sants, babas, sgpc, jathedars etc etc"..MORE WORRIED about that "loss" than the GAIN of the Guru Khalsa Panth ?? From 1666 to 1751 the 23 POH always came on 22nd DECEMBER...and sometimes on 21 december or 23 rd december becasue of the MINOR SHORTNESS of the BIKRMI SOLAR Calendar compard to the Gregorian SOLAR Calendar. Bikrmi Solar is 365.24 days..and Gregorian 365.25..a very minor difference that translates into a day after 3300 years !! Previoulsy also the Julian Solar calendar would have an extra day after a lapse of 128 years.

    The NANAKSHAHEE CALENDAR of 2003 has the Solar Based 365.2425 calculation....and the dates are FIXED for 3300 years when an extra days may be necessary to be added !!
    In this NS Calendar the Guru Gobind Singh Paraksh Ustav was FIXED on 23 POH..January 5!!..........and so were ALL the other Gurpurabs. No changes were ever necessary for the next 3 millineums !!

    NOW its up to us..Sikhs spread all over the world to decide if we want to use the MODERN SCIENTIFIC based SOLAR Calendar called NANAKSHAHEE in which all dates are permanent..or revert to the BENARES BASED LUNISOLAR calendar that has CHANGING DATES EACH YEAR....and ONLY the BENARES PANDITS ISSUE these dates for us. This si the Dilemma into which we have been cast by the powers that be who Cancelled the Ultra Modern nanakshaee Calendar and reintroduced the ancient and BACKWARD lunisolar jantree that NO COUNTRY in the world uses !!!:redturban::blueturban::happysingh::eek:rangesingh::happykaur:
     
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  10. Balkar Singh

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    (1) There is no confusion of the date. The so called common calander (AD) came to Panjab nearly 200 years after the holy birth of Guru Gobind
    Singh ji.

    (2) The birth date is the 7th bright luner day of the month of Poh (poh sudi 7th) , the dates mentioned in Thitti Gouri {GGS-296} and are, by no way, "Hindu dates.

    (3) On the 300th B'day, the SGPC got searched the Day as 22 Dec. but again confused with 5th jan.WHY? Still the Poh Sudhi 7th is unique.

    (4) The Muslims follow these dates and are not afraid. Why we ? Because our people talk less on Gurmat and much more on raising doubts. Guru save the Faith.

    Bhul Chuk Moaf karni ji.

    Gurufateh.
     
  11. Gyani Jarnail Singh

    Gyani Jarnail Singh Malaysia
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    Balkar Singh Ji,
    you wrote:

    (4) The Muslims follow these dates and are not afraid. Why we ? Because our people talk less on Gurmat and much more on raising doubts. Guru save the Faith.

    THEY DONT FOLLOW the LUNISOLAR Calendar....ONLY THE LUNAR CALENDAR - the PURE ONE. Thus they dont have any problems.

    Please read the relevant portions of my reply above which refer to this point.
     
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  12. spnadmin

    spnadmin United States
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    To repeat words of Gyani ji which do not actually need to be repeated. The Bikrami Calendar is both solar and lunar. This was explained in the first article of the thread.
     
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  13. Harinaam

    Harinaam
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    Dear Readers of Sikh Philosophy,

    The purpose of celebration is to revisit our faith in our Guru AND His Teachings. Whereas Guru's Parkash Divas should be celebrated every moment every day of life and we do so when we do Ardas and when we do Simran.

    Calendar change is not a spiritual decision but a political one. So are we discussing Sikh politics or Sikh religion?

    However, let it be understood, that stating that we wish to move away from the traditional calendar because it is in your mind set a Hindu Calendar is very wrong reason and divisive decision to confuse the community It is a debate coined to suggest that "you are trying to encompass all Sikhs to be projected as if they Hate Hindus that is why they wish to discard Traditional calendar in favor of Nanakshahi" I not only condemn this debate as against the Sikh tenants and beliefs and message of our Gurus and would like you to rephrase to absolutely stop it.

    Let us first understand the Purpose of establishing Nanakshhi Calendar : is it not copying Christian Calendar as they started every thing from the date of Jesus Birth and so we want to start every thing from Guru's birth. as with embracing Guru Nanak as our Guru we are all reborn on that day. Good taught but that should not give you reason to say because it was Hindu Calendar that is why we wish to discard that it is mean and low. I love my Guru and already start my every day with His name and by embracing Nanakshahi is another mile stone in my faith but i will not make this mile stone of my Universal Guru with any reason or suggestion of hatred for any one. I live every day and plan my work based on Christian Calendar. I celebrate the Sangrad based of Indian traditional calendar and many other days as it is part of Guru Granth Sahib.

    Calendars were based on Scientific understanding of the moment of Stars in the universe and the religion was mixed to make them more acceptable among people and the same were exploited for "Ghatda Grahan ans amny other superstitions by Sri Guru nanak DevJi" Barah Mah comes two time in the SGGS and it all directs not to the month but directs all humans to Guru Nanak's message what should be done in that month. However, today education and knowledge is imparted more and should make people grow into wisdom.

    What you call Hindu with sense of Hatred as I could smell from your e mail is against Guru Nanak Principle of "Sanjhi Vaar" I wonder what and who is attempting to corrupt Sri Guru Nanak Dev ji's True Message to the whole universe. We as born Sikhs in the Sikhs families are not any "Thekedaars" for the Sikhism, Gurbani lives and Sri Guru Granth Sahib itself gives all answer please do not overshadow those with unmindful and twisted debates.

    Celebrate GURU's Day every day ""Nit Japiye saas Giras " that is Celebration of the Birthday of the GURU.

    What you refer as HINDU calendar is infact is The Indian Traditional Calendar and is celebrated in SRI GURU GRANTH SAHIB AND I REALLY DESPISE THOSE WHO ARE TRYING TO TAKE CHARGE OF SIKH PHILOSOHPY AND MAKING IT CORRUPT AND ASSUMING ROLES OF MAULVI LIKE BY STARTING UNMEANINGFUL AND DUBIOUS DEBATES. GURU NANAK'S REAL TEACHING OF UNIVERSAL BROTHERHOOD HAS NO PLACE FOR ALL THIS. WHAT SHOULD I EXPECT NEXT AMENDMENT OF GURBANI " BARAH MAH'.

    I can surely tell that such notions and debates and messages through the internet is going to confuse the young generation of Sikhs who depend lot on internet to know in reality what is Guru Nanak's Teaching are.


    Please be clear when you start that debate about what SGG says about Desi months : "Thit war na jogi Jaane Rut mah na Koi, Ja karta Shrishti Ko sajey appey janney soi" So dates and months by what ever name they are called has no importance IN sIKHISM.

    YOU CAN NOT BREAK AWAY FROM TRADITIONS TILL TODAY MANY AMRITDHARI SIKHS USE THEIR CASTES AND PRACTICE CASTISM FOLLOW SUPERSTITIONS AND I HAVE TESTED ON MANY BY POSING AS FORTUNETELLER AND FOUND MANY AMRITDHARI SIKHS AND PARCHARAKS FELL INTO THAT. THERE IS NEED FOR SELF CHANGE NOT CALENDAR CHANGE.
    WHEN WE FAIL TO CLEAN OUR MINDS WE WANT TO COVER LOT OF OUR DIRT WITH OSTENTIOUS DECORATIONS.

    CAN YOU FIRST TAKE THAT STEP AND FIRST -LEARN TO FOLLOW GURU'S MESSAGE BEFORE AMENDING AND CHANGING HIS DATES OF BIRTH PLEASE CHANGE YOUR MINDSET OF HATERED AND DIVISIVENESS
    "MANAS KI JAAT SABE EKO PEHCHANBO" GURU GOBIND SINGH

    Love all do not find hate as areason to start or leave any thing

    May Akal Purukh give us all sumat that we can follow our Guru with Truth and Love in our Heart

    Yours Harinaam
     
  14. findingmyway

    findingmyway
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    Gurfateh Harinaam ji,
    Thank you for your input. However, I feel you have got us wrong. Nobody is advocating hate at all, merely a separate identity from Hindus and the use of a separate calendar which makes more sense as per Sikh philosophy. If it has come across as hate, I apologise but that was not the intention.

    Guru Nanak Dev ji challenged old traditions so just because something has been in use for a long time is not a reason to automatically accept it.

    Absolutely agree in theory! However, persuading Gurdwara's all over the world to cancel Gurpurbs for these occasions will be more of a challenge!
     
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  15. spnadmin

    spnadmin United States
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    As another point of information, also made in the first article of the thread. The Nanakshahi Calendar does not start with Jesus' birth. it begins with the birth of Guru Nanak. March 14 Gregorian, or 1 Chet 531 Nanakshahi. The connection to the Gregorian Calendar is to fix gurpurabs and festival dates, but only as per the conversion from Nanakshahi's first day, through the entire year. For that matter, the Gregorian Calendar does not start with Jesus' birth either.

    I apologize if the description was not clear of if it caused any offense. Since the Gregorian Calendar is adopted for practical purposes throughout the world, including India, the decision to use it is not political but to make communication across nations and cultures more practical.
     
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  16. Dr. Harbhajan Singh Seth

    Dr. Harbhajan Singh Seth
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    Respected Sir

    Waheguru ji khalsa, Waheguruji ki Fateh,

    In my opinion the Nanak Shahi calender has created more confusion and divided the Sikh community. For example in most of the Gurdwaras world over the Sangrand is still observed according to Old calender, but only in some Gurdwaras in India the Nanak Shahi calender is followed. There is some time difference of two days in these dates. Let SGPC evolve a calender acceptable to entire Sikh community and follow same dates through out the world. For example I am presently visiting California (USA) and wanted to know the date of Sangrand in December. Almost all the Gurdwaras in California listed it on 14 December , but In Amritsar Golden Temple it was celebrated on 16 December. I appeal to SGPC to look into these anomalies.

    Regards,

    Dr. Harbhajan Singh Seth
     
  17. JimRinX

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    I thinks it's the Karma of the Act of the Celebration, the Karma of the Honor Given through the Commemoration of the Enlightened Gurus Birth that is what matters; and while you mean to Honor Guru Gobind Singh by trying to justify these scholoatically challenging discrepencies in these calenders, I think he'd agree that simply being thought of Positively one any randomly chosen day, once a year, would be enough.
    It will no doubt be debated for years to come - as I hope their will always be Sikhs.
     
  18. prakash.s.bagga

    prakash.s.bagga
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    Prakash Divas of GURU GOBIND SINGH Ji..Celebirating with uncertainty'

    We must take the guidance from SGGS ji regarding the whole matter of celebirations.
    If we truely follow the GURMATi from SGGS ji then we would be able to find a better solution as to what we are doing and what we must do?

    Prakash.S.Bagga
     
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  19. Gyani Jarnail Singh

    Gyani Jarnail Singh Malaysia
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    Parkash S Bagga Ji..
    Unfortunately the SGGS ha s never figured in any "Hukmnama" since about 30 years ago..when the likes of Sants fateh and Channan Singh and GS Tohra came to power. From then on the paid servants of SGPC were bestowed the power to issue "Hukmnamahs"...and the SGGS was never again consulted/nor ardass performed before the SGGS to seek guidance. Thus the JORRANN philosophy of SGGS was transformed into the TORRAN Philosophy....more and more excommunications instead of forgiveness, tolerance, peace and brotherhood..Haumai...I say so I am the Jathedar..listen to ME or you get out and stay out.Period.

    The PREVIOUS Nanakshai Calendar was issued in 2003 with ALL the 3 Punjab Takhat Jathedars and SGPC, worldwide academics etc etc in agreement...the recent one was issued with Takhat Damdama Sahib Jathedar in complete DISAGREEMENT..world wide academics, sikh organsiations in DISAGREEMENT...Takhat Keshgarh celebrating Gurpurabs on its own...rough shod over...aapo dhaapee verywhere...

    We should and Have to seek the GUIDANCE of SGGS..our GURU...and leave the MEN aside....swordfight has to STOP !!
     
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  20. prakash.s.bagga

    prakash.s.bagga
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    GIYANI JARNAIL SINGH JI,
    Pl accept my Divine Greetings,

    I would like to thankyou very much for completing the message.It is greatly appreciative
    for all.
    With Best Wishes
    Prakash.S.Bagga
     
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  21. spnadmin

    spnadmin United States
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    Gyani ji

    Yes...thank you. At the risk of sounding like a nit-picker..Damdami Jathedar did not liike the Nanakshai 2003, nor the current Bikram hybridi one either --- because he resents the deviation from a complete Bikrami Samgat to be followed by Sikhs according to tradition.
     

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