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Sanatan Sikhi Nirankar and being a Sanatan Sikh

Discussion in 'Sikh Sikhi Sikhism' started by namjiwankaur, Oct 20, 2012.

  1. namjiwankaur

    namjiwankaur
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    Sat Nam _/|\_

    I'm reading through a website on Sanatan Sikhi and its various sects. One of the things it says there is that Sikhi goes back to the beginning of time. Is this a mainstream concept amongst Sikhs?

    Does anyone here agree with this idea? How does it seem true for you? I'm not judging one way or another. Just want to learn.

    My other question is that I read there Sanatan Sikhs believe anyone who believes in Nirankar and sees the Divine in all is a Sanatan Sikh. I assume many here will disagree with this, but I'm hoping someone can teach me why some Sikhs would disagree with them. It does seem that Guru Nanak himself was trying to teach people to dedicate life to the journey with Waheguru rather than identifying strictly with one religion to the point where it seemed only that religion contained truth.

    How did Guru Nanak define a Sikh?

    Nam Jiwan :)
     
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  3. BhagatSingh

    BhagatSingh Canada
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    Namjivan ji,
    You'll have to explain their beliefs if you want to get a discussion going. I don't know what they believe but I have heard things like everyone is a Sikh before they convert to another religion. :grinningsingh: This is coming from mainstream Sikhs.

    But here's what I understand of 'sikh'.
    1. To be a sikh, apprentice, is to have a relationship with a guru, master.

    The guru-sikh relationship which defines Sikhism has been there since the beginning of time. There was someone who knew something and knew the steps to do it, and they passed on this information to the next generation and so on. This continued even after the advent of paper and books. A strong oral tradition was present, and apprentices had to devote their lives to learning the material and memorize it (often with the use of music and poetry). This is pretty easy to grasp. Masters like Peter Paul Rubens had a whole bunch of apprentices who would copy their master and get their input on their creations to learn art. The same is true of spirituality,when it comes to attaining union with God.

    2. the beliefs of Sikhism predate Guru Nanak and his successors.

    We can trace the guru-sikh relationship starting from Sant Kabir ji (16th century, a contemporary of Guru Nanak) who was one of Guru Ramanand ji's sikhs. Kabir ji is the 5th largest contributor to Guru Granth Sahib ji, but bani of many of Guru Ramanand ji's sikhs, including the guru himself can be found in Guru Granth Sahib ji. At this time many gurus around India were taking followers from lower castes, as they believed the lower castes should also get involved in bhagati. Guru Ramanand ji did so as well, and many of his Sikh belong to different professions. Ramanand ji was a successor of his guru, who was a successor of someone... and so on. Bhagats from the 13th-14th century including Bhagat Namdev ji, Bhagat Jaidev ji, Bhagat Trilochan ji also preach the same message embedded in Guru Granth Sahib. The belief system they followed had a famous proponent, Guru Ramanuja ji (of the 11th century, otherwise known as Ramanujacharya, acharya means guru), who himself had a guru. So basically what you read in Guru Granth Sahib ji is a window to the teachings of Guru Ramanuj, who was a sikh of a Muni (those who practice silence) and other gurus who lead to the development of Guru Ramanuja ji's teachings. I haven't traced back further but I am sure there are records of gurus who came before Ramanuja ji who echo similar thoughts as him.

    To wrap up 1 and 2 with an analogy from art, we see many elements of Peter Paul Rubens' art today, particularly, his dynamism and muscular and heroic male characters, and fantastical elements. He would have studied artists before him, artists like Michelangelo and Raphael, whose influence in visible in his style. They themselves got their knowledge from Greek and Roman sculptures. Today's hollywood films are a window to Greek art. The Greek portrayal of the human form is not the same as the Indian, Egyptian or Japanese one. The Greeks based their forms on I believe Pythagorus' mathematical ideals. Even their architexture is based on the mathematics. Pythagorus and his students (you may read: sikhs) believed the beauty of nature could be captured with mathematics. So they came up with certain ratios that described many beautiful things in nature, also known as the golden ratio.

    So we find that the guru-sikh relationship has been present for quite a long time. The teachings are transformed over generations. As the masters adapt to new surroundings. The relationship exists not just in spiritual circles but in art, math and I believe in all fields of study where knowledge and practice meet.

    You'll have to tell us what they are saying exactly. If they are saying what I am saying then I agree. :grinningsingh:
    This is the same as mainstream view that union with God results in such a perception where God is seen in all individuals.

    He didn't, there isn't a need to if a sikh is an individual who follows a guru. But as a religious label, we did this back in the 20th century for religious, politcal and maybe socio-economic reasons.

    Back then Guru Nanak's followers were called by several names including Nanak Panthi. A sikh of Guru Nanak was differentiated by a sikh of another guru, say Kabir (who did not name a successor). Kabir's followers were called Kabir Panthi. Both of these lineages still exist today.
     
  4. prakash.s.bagga

    prakash.s.bagga
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    Namjiwan Kaur Ji,
    I refer to your point in your message as

    I'm reading through a website on Sanatan Sikhi and its various sects. One of the things it says there is that Sikhi goes back to the beginning of time. Is this a mainstream concept amongst Sikhs?

    I present my personal views for your consideration as

    It is true to say that Sikhi is right from the begining as Sikhi is a direct relationship between THE CREATOR -GuRu and the Beings of the Universe.
    In this context it would bewrong to say Sikhi as Sanatan Sikhi because Sikhi can not be labled as Such lableing would be against the very nature of Sikhi.
    There is definitely reference word NIRANKAAR for the CREATOR in Gurbanee.But what Sanatan sect considers as NIRANKAAR is very much different from what is there in Gurbanmee.

    My personal view is that SIKHI is a way on which one can meet the CREATOR PRABHu
    thru GuR without any rituals. From Gurbanee one can learn that any SIKH has been refered as
    Gur Satigur Ka Jo sikh Akhawe, Bhalke Uthi Hari Naamu Dhiawae.

    So any person who getting up every morning focuses on Hari Naamu can be a SIKH.

    This is the real message of GuRu Nanak ji .

    Now one can understand that the main stream is SIKHI itself.

    Prakash.S.Bagga
     
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  5. chazSingh

    chazSingh Ireland
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    The human body contains within it all the tools and contents for us to realise god. so i would say sikhi existed the moment God arranged a method by which to realise him. whether it's a moment in time or before time was even created.

    kaaeiaa sareerai vich sabh kishh paaeiaa ||
    In the frame of the human body, He has placed all things. 117

    sach karanee dhae paaeeai dhar ghar mehal piaar ||
    By true actions, this human body is obtained, and the door within ourselves which leads to the Mansion of the Beloved, is found.
     
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  6. chazSingh

    chazSingh Ireland
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    Sikhi is that simple...what you've stated above is the key to everything.

    Do this one thing at amrit vela, and everything shall be revealed to us
     
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  7. Ahiyapuri

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    Are you talking about the Guru-Shishya Prampara... started long before the 16th century. You mention guru-sikh tradition. You want to say that shishya is same as a sikh. the sanatan dharama linkage is propagated to substantiate the idea that sikhism did not originate from Hinduism but it was already there as a sanatan mat.
     
  8. Ahiyapuri

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    So according to gurubaani one does not need to be sahajdhari or amrit dhari or in any way panj kakaari but the one who does simran of waheguru. This seems so satisfying.
     
  9. spnadmin

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    A lot of misleading information is being propagated in this thread, beginning with the first two posts. Some things are factually incorrect. Others are misinterpretations. So the later comments and questions are understandable, but they stem from the early confusion. I am going to close the thread until I am able to return, or a leader or mentor can come here and straighten things out. Estimate, the thread will open tomorrow. There are issues in Sikhi that are not matters of opinion, where one opinion is as good as another. Some opinions need to be informed opinions. Please check back. Thank you :happymunda:
     
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  10. spnadmin

    spnadmin United States
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    Thread temporarily closed.
     
  11. Gyani Jarnail Singh

    Gyani Jarnail Singh Malaysia
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    Gur Satigur Ka Jo sikh Akhawe, Bhalke Uthi Hari Naamu Dhiawae.

    1.The word used is TOMORROW...the NEXT DAY....no where does it mention the TIME..
    2. There is a reason why Guru Ji used the Word Bhalke and not Amrit Vela 2am etc.

    Har Naam Dhiveh..is ENGAGE IN THE NAME OF HARI..the CREATOR.
    I take ENGAGE to be..Actively DOING whatever one does in the Name of Har.....a FARMER for example (IN Guru Jis time) would be the one GETTING UP EARLY (Bhalkeh in colloquial lingo) and after saying hari/Allah/Waheguru/Nirankar etc..would Go get his Hall plough, his bullocks etc and proceed to hsi fileds to begin PLOUGHING his fields...or watering his fields..or milking his cows etc etc...and BY SUNRISE..he would be BACK HOME..for breakfast/lassee prauntha etc. This is the Life in Rural Punjab..but todays farmer drives the tractor+plough instead of his bullocks..BUT his wife still milks the cows early and churns the milk for butter milk etc and cleans the animals stalls etc early morning. HARD HONEST LABOUR is one of HARI NAMES..and to ACTIVELY ENGAGE in this is what Naam Dhiveh means !! A SIKH is anyone and everyone who follows the Creators ATTRIBUTES.....

     
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  12. spnadmin

    spnadmin United States
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    The thread is now open again. Gyani ji has given a thorough and life-as-we-live-nirankar explanation. After reading what he has written no one should have any doubt as to how nirankar is present in our each and every breath and action.

    My take on the thread title, "Nirankar and Being a Sanatan Sikh:"

    • Nirankar and "being a Sanatan Sikh" are not dependent on one another.
    • Nirankar is nirankar whether one is a sanatan or not, or whether one is Sikh or not.
    • Sanatan Sikhs are members of the 5 historical traditions originating from the time of the Gurus, and understand the concept of nirankar.
    • The group termed Nirankari Sikhs has a very complicated history which includes internal division and a breakup into 2 separate sects.
    • Neither sect is sanatan because their history begins after the death of Guru Gobind Singh
    • Just because someone may adhere to sanatan beliefs does not make that person a sanatan Sikh. Adherents of the Nirankari group as it is constituted today are not sanatan Sikhs, although they may adhere to sanatan beliefs.
     
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    #11 spnadmin, Jan 19, 2013
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2013

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