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Nameless?

Discussion in 'Sikh Sikhi Sikhism' started by CaramelChocolate, May 5, 2005.

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  1. CaramelChocolate

    CaramelChocolate
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  2. Arvind

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    Dear John,
    Jaap sahib says - None has the ability to list down the attributes of the Supreme power. The different names contained in Jaap Sahib are the karma-names of His. Guru sahib seeks His kirpa so that such names may be listed.
    Jaap Sahib produces Bir-ras in the reader. Reading for just a few days may be a good indicator to feel what I am saying.
    Regards.
     
  3. CaramelChocolate

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    Well, I was told by someone that God is essentially nameless, in a small sense WAHEGURU is a name but in a bigger since it is a praise.

    Wahe = Wow
    Gu = Dark
    Ru = Light
    Guru = Enlightener [from darkness to light]

    Waheguru = Wow enlightener!

    But then I asked, isn't this name praising the Guru not God? And was then explained that God is all-knowing, and Sikhism focusses on this aspect of God, so in a sense God itself is a Guru, and Shri Guru Granth Sahib has a bucket of this ocean of knowledge, so it is beinging both together and saying "Wow, enlightener, look at your creation!" [im amazement]. The enlightener is God [i.e. God decides who is enlightened and who isn't, Guruji helps our chances increase of becoming enlightened].
     
  4. Amerikaur

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    Well if we start talking about He-who-must-not-be-named, I might be wondering if I was reading a Harry Potter book, instead of Gurbani ;)
     
  5. CaramelChocolate

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  6. UnstoppableSingh

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    Caramel don't worry Amerikaur was make a reference to the Harry Potter Book series... (good Joke) :rofl!!:
     
  7. Amerikaur

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    Thanks, Unstoppable Singh ji!

    CaramelChocolate, my (imperfect) interpretation of the Shabad is that God has not just one name, but many names. And there are many ways of describing Him (God, Waheguru, the Almighty...) However - there is still just One of Him, and no matter how glorious we describe him, there is nothing in our mortal communication that can truly match the all of what he is.
     
  8. drkhalsa

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    As I understand Sikhi teaches us that actually he( AKAL Purakh) is the only who exist and nothing else , so every thin g you can see and you think of is his expression so philosophically yo can say that either he is nameless or the names are his only I mean all the vocabulary will fall short even to describe his name

    Jatinder Singh
     
  9. CaramelChocolate

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    Then how can he have a name? When you give a name it implies that you have knowledge of the thing. I still say as per Sikhism it would be more logical for God to be nameless. The whole purpose of a name is A. to praise because Waheguru means WOW ENLIGHTENER and B. to talk about him in conversation i.e. "I am worshipping God."
     
  10. Archived_member2

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    Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakal!

    Those who know HIM with a Name and also without any Name, please raise your hands.

    Balbir Singh
     
  11. CaramelChocolate

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    That is what I am trying to say - no one can know God.
     
  12. Archived_member2

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    Satsriakal to all and Caramel Chocolate Ji!

    Do you want to say that enlightened ones have also not realized God?

    Are you sure that only savor grapes are there?


    Balbir Singh
     
  13. gursidak

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    <> siqnwmu krqw purKu inrBau inrvYru
    Akwl mUriq AjUnI sYBM gurpRswid

    One Universal Creator God. The Name Is Truth. Creative Being Personified. No Fear. No Hatred. Image Of The Undying, Beyond Birth, Self-Existent. By Guru's Grace.

    To start with lets keep in mind 'the ONE' we are discussing about as elucidated by Siri Guru Nanak.

    Below I have listed a part of the text available at the link provided by brother CaramelChocolate.


    c`k® ichn Aru brn jwiq Aru pwiq nihn ijh ]
    rUp rMg Aru ryK ByK koaU kih n skiq ikh ]
    Acl mUriq AnBau pRkws Aimqoij kih`jY ]
    koit ieMdR ieMdRwix swhu swhwix gix`jY ]
    iqRBvx mhIp sur nr Asur nyq nyq bn iqRx khq ]
    qv srb nwm kQY kvn krm nwm brnq sumiq ] 1 ]

    chakar chehun ar burn, jati ar pati nehun jeh

    roop rung ar raikh, bhaikh kohoo keh na skut keh
    achul mooret anbho parkas ametoje kehjai
    koti eindar eindran saho sahan gnejai
    tirbhavn maheep sur nar asur naiti naiti bun tirun keht
    tav sarb nam kathai kavan karm nam barnt sumati. (1)

    O Lord, You are such a Being, Who has no physical appearance, such as form, color, shape, marks, symbols and garb. You do not belong to any caste, class, or lineage. You are Immutable (Unchanging). Self-luminous and shines everywhere in Your Splendor. You have Limitless Powers. You are the maker of billions of kings like Indira. You are the King of kings. You are the Master of all the three Spheres. Besides gods, humans and demons, even all the vegetative creation in woodlands say: You are Infinite, You are Infinite. Who can describe all Your Names. The wise men have mentioned Your Functional Names only. (1)




    nmsqM inRnwmy ] nmsqM inRkwmy ]
    nmsqM inRDwqy ] nmsqM inRGwqy ] 11 ]

    namustun nirnamai , namustun nirkamai

    namustun nirdhatai, namustun nirghatai (11)

    O Lord, we salute You. You have no particular Name, and are Desireless. You are not made of five elements and none can inflict injury on You. (11)


    For one, the meanings might be open to debate as I am of the firm belief that Gurbani is (AQwhu), an ocean with unrealizable depths or in otherwords an insurmountable mountain. We as seekers are only able to realize whatever we see, with our limited sight and as interpreted by our limited intelligence, at the level (depth or height as the case may be) we reach. So, it is unthinkable to have a final word. We can and should pray to the Lord to grant us the sight and mind to realize the Truth.

    The fact that God has no 'particular name' might be interpreted in the negative as 'no name' or on the other hand as 'no single or specific (particular) name.' The latter inference, if seems more plausible, can stand the test of Gurbani also because nowhere has the exclusivity or patent of His Name been mentioned in Gurbani. While not entering into debate as to are we supposed to treat any other of the prevelant names as the 'Holy Naam' as preached in our Gurbani, it shouldn't be ignored that various bhagats whose baani features in SGGS attained the ultimate spiritual goals when they owed allegience to different relegions and names by way of there different faiths. So our Gurus never imparted any exclusivity to any particular 'name.' Definitely, this superficial ambiguity as might seem to a casual observer doesn't lead to any confusion in 'Sikhism' as to the true 'Naam.'

    We can again go to the old-fashioned instance of 10 blind men and an elephant with the difference that in this context it is difficult to quantify the extent of one's 'blindness' and surely this 'elephant' is HUGE beyond imagination.

    Also, as we grow spiritually we definitely even contradict ourself in as much the meanings we understand from any particular 'Shabad or Pankti'; and definitelyin most cases it isn't even noticed because quite natrually nobody attaches too much importance or keep track of mental, financial, and to a much greater extent Spiritual Progress.

    A case in point would be that of a science student in a junior class who would explain an atom in very simple terms consisting of a nucleus with neutrons and protons with electrons revolving around the nucleaus. This same student if goes on to do postgraduation on Chemistry might explain the structure of atom at a very minute level with scores of components and theories.

    The point being tried to convey is that given our limitations, we as seekers, are bound to have differences of perception and we need not attach much weight to these differences for one thing is sure that 'GURBANI IS NOT AND OUGHT NOT BE A SUBJECT OF CONTROVERSY.'

    Also our Faith is and ought to be tolerant enough to stand the tests of differences of interpretation because Truth is what it is - TRUTH. It has been there before us, remains, and will definitely be there when none of us remains.

    hir jIau scw scu hY scI gurbwxI ] (515-15, gUjrI kI vwr, mÚ 3)

    har jee-o sachaa sach hai sachee gurbaanee.

    The Dear Lord is the Truest of the True; True is the Word of the Guru's Bani.

    We as seekers should only try to support and help fellow seekers with some positive thoughts which might further strengthen their faith. Not in the least would we like to deviate from our love of God and enter into useless controversy where in addition to the two parties involved, we cause distraction to a number of other souls. Please don't get me wrong, I am not saying that we do not need to debate. Definitely we should but in light of our knowledge of Gurbani, with an open mind, and to the point where we are not forcing our views down others throats or creatining confusion or controversy.

    Also, this is an observation in general and nothing to do with any of the posts in this thread or even this forum.

    Last but not the least, I want to put forth my Extreme Ignorance and incompetence to comment on 'Gurbani' and the above views are just my personal expression of facts as I understand with my limited intelligence.

    I would be really greatful to the englightened and accomplished Gursikhs to grant me with some of there 'hard-earned' knowledge and blessings and correct me wherever I am wrong.

    A few quotes which might be in context with the discussion.

    gurbwxI chu kuMfI suxIAY swcY nwim smwiedw ]3] (1065-3, mwrU, mÚ 3)

    gurbaanee chahu kundee sunee-ai saachai naam samaa-idaa. ||3||

    The Word of the Guru's Bani is heard throughout the four corners of the world; through it, we merge in the True Name. ||3||



    gurbwxI vrqI jg AMqir iesu bwxI qy hir nwmu pwiedw ]3] (1066-4, mwrU, mÚ 3)

    gurbaanee vartee jag antar is banee tay har naam paa-idaa. ||3||

    The Word of the Guru's Bani prevails throughout the world; through this Bani, the Lord's Name is obtained. ||3||


    gurbwxI sunq myrw mnu dRivAw mnu BInw inj Gir AwvYgo ] (1308-10, kwnVw, mÚ 4)

    gurbaanee sunat mayraa man darvi-aa man bheenaa nij ghar aavaigo.

    Hearing the Word of the Guru's Bani, my mind has been softened and saturated with it; my mind has returned to its own home deep within.


    ijnw AMdir nwmu inDwnu hY gurbwxI vIcwir ] (1422-14, slok vwrW qy vDIk, mÚ 4)

    jinaa andar naam niDhaan hai gurbaanee veechaar.

    Those who have the Naam within, contemplate the Word of the Guru's Bani.





    jn nwnk nwmu ADwru tyk hY hir nwmy hI suKu mMfw hy ]4]4] (13-13, gauVI pUrbI, mÚ 4)

    jan naanak naam aDhaar tayk hai har naamay hee sukh mandaa hay. ||4||4||

    Servant Nanak takes the Sustenance and Support of the Naam. In the Name of the Lord, he enjoys celestial peace. ||4||4||




    Aihinis ihrdY riv rhY inrBau nwmu inrMkwr ] (32-18, isrIrwgu, mÚ 3)

    ahinis hirdai rav rahai nirbha-o naam nirankaar.

    Day and night, the Name of the One Lord, the Fearless and Formless One, dwells within the heart.

    myry mn hir kw nwmu iDAwie ] (35-6, isrIrwgu, mÚ 3)

    mayray man har kaa naam Dhi-aa-ay.

    O my mind, meditate on the Name of the Lord.

    hir nwmu slwhin nwmu min nwim rhin ilv lwie ] (42-3, isrIrwgu, mÚ 4)

    har naam salaahan naam man naam rahan liv laa-ay.

    They praise the Lord's Name, they keep the Naam in their minds, and they remain attached to the Love of the Naam.





    ijn kau msqik iliKAw iqn pwieAw hir nwmu ]1] (45-14, isrIrwgu, mÚ 5)

    jin ka-o mastak likhi-aa tin paa-i-aa har naam. ||1||

    Those who have such destiny written upon their foreheads obtain the Name of the Lord. ||1||


    kir ikrpw pRiB myilAw dIAw Apxw nwmu ] (46-7, isrIrwgu, mÚ 5)

    kar kirpaa parabh mayli-aa dee-aa apnaa naam.

    In His Mercy, God unites us with Himself, and He blesses us with the Naam.

    eyko nwmu hukmu hY nwnk siqguir dIAw buJwie jIau ]5] (72-2, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)

    ayko naam hukam hai naanak satgur dee-aa bujhaa-ay jee-o. ||5||

    The One Name is the Lord's Command; O Nanak, the True Guru has given me this understanding. ||5||


    kIAw Kylu bf mylu qmwsw vwihgurU qyrI sB rcnw ] (1403-18, sveIey mhly cauQy ky, gXMd)

    kee-aa khayl bad mayl tamaasaa vaahiguroo tayree sabh rachnaa.

    You have formed and created this play, this great game. O Waahay Guru, this is all You, forever.




    vwihgurU vwihgurU vwihgurU vwih jIau ] (1402-11, sveIey mhly cauQy ky, gXMd)
    kvl nYn mDur bYn koit sYn sMg soB khq mw jsod ijsih dhI Bwqu Kwih jIau ] (1402-12, sveIey mhly cauQy ky, gXMd)

    dyiK rUpu Aiq AnUpu moh mhw mg BeI ikMknI sbd Jnqkwr Kylu pwih jIau ] (1402-13, sveIey mhly cauQy ky, gXMd)


    kwl klm hukmu hwiQ khhu kaunu myit skY eIsu bMm´ü g´wnu D´wnu Drq hIAY cwih jIau ] (1402-14, sveIey mhly cauQy ky, gXMd)


    siq swcu sRI invwsu Awid purKu sdw quhI vwihgurU vwihgurU vwihgurU vwih jIau ]1]6] (1402-14, sveIey mhly cauQy ky, gXMd)



    vaahiguroo vaahiguroo vaahiguroo vaahi jee-o.


    kaval nain maDhur bain kot sain sang sobh kahat maa jasod jisahi dahee bhaat khaahi jee-o.


    daykh roop at anoop moh mahaa mag bha-ee kinknee sabad jhanatkaar khayl paahi jee-o.

    kaal kalam hukam haath kahhu ka-un mayt sakai ees bamm-yu ga-yaan Dhayaan Dharat hee-ai chaahi jee-o.



    sat saach saree nivaas aad purakh sadaa tuhee vaahiguroo vaahiguroo vaahiguroo vaahi jee-o. ||1||6||




    Waahay Guru, Waahay Guru, Waahay Guru, Waahay Jee-o.
    You are lotus-eyed, with sweet speech, exalted and embellished with millions of companions. Mother Yashoda invited You as Krishna to eat the sweet rice.

    Gazing upon Your supremely beautiful form, and hearing the musical sounds of Your silver bells tinkling, she was intoxicated with delight.

    Death's pen and command are in Your hands. Tell me, who can erase it? Shiva and Brahma yearn to enshrine Your spiritual wisdom in their hearts.

    You are forever True, the Home of Excellence, the Primal Supreme Being. Waahay Guru, Waahay Guru, Waahay Guru, Waahay Jee-o. ||1||6||



    Bhullan Chukkan Di Khima

    God Bless All

    Guru Rakha
     
  14. drkhalsa

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    Dear Brother Gursidak

    I am in full agreement with you on this and thanks for your constructive critisim . I ma really happy to read you r response and looking forward to read more from you

    May Akal Purakh bless all

    Jatinder Singh
     
  15. Archived_member2

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    Satsriakal to all and Gursidak Ji!

    Thanks for your wonderful references from Gurbani.

    The curiosity raised by Caramel Chocolate Ji is also inspiring.
    He raised a question. Is WAHEGURUJI nameless?

    You referred Dasam Granth and mentioned Guru's Vaak "namustun nirnamai" "bow to you the no name."

    You also referred Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and cited many Vaaks from our Gurus. These Vaaks confirm the importance of God's Name.
    One reference is "kar kirpaa parabh mayli-aa dee-aa apnaa naam." SGGS page 46
    "doing mercy God merged given own name"

    As you wrote "GURBANI IS NOT AND OUGHT NOT BE A SUBJECT OF CONTROVERSY."

    The above references are also not opposite.

    I will be grateful to hear from you. How?

    Humbly


    Balbir Singh
     
  16. gursidak

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    Sat Sri Akal

    I'll take my humble instance to begin with. The primary reason for me to have a name is my own 'selfish' requirement that I be recognizable in a vast population, be credited for me endeavours, ensure that I reap all the materialistic benefits which 'belong to me,' so on and so forth. My name, if at all, is of little benefit to anyone but me.

    Now, I will state that yes 'Waheguru Ji is nameless.' This is the truth and not that difficult to realize. All efforts or steps, divine or human, to attach a name to the Lord serve the Lord no 'selfish' purpose. These 'names' infact are to aid us and the importance is amply described in Gurbani. Quite often various names of the Lord are even 'mis'used for superficial, short-sighted 'self gratifying' goals which are in conflict with the 'divine intended purpose' and bringing out a name of the Lord which has been mercifully bestowed upon us to benefit us in our journey of the ultimate realization.

    I will again quote from my previous post:

    Again, I find no harm in restating, that we as humans with limited intelligence are prone to bound to have varying interpretations of the divine Gurbani and I don't claim any authority whatsoever of the same. My beliefs to this effect are presented in a bit more detail in my previous posts with a few examples like that of the elephant and blinds, etc.

    The above interpretation was picked from the link provided by CaramelChocolate and to my understanding belong to Prof. Sahib Singh. Here I feel that again the things are being simplified for low-intelligence people like me when in fact the interpretation for ' nmsqM inRnwmy ' could well have been 'You have no name' but again should be noted that Gurbani offers guidance, direction, and satisfaction to people of varying levels of sensitization in a manner unique to any individual. That's the reason that we might encounter different interpretations prevailing but that doesn't and ought not create any controversy as to what was the thought intended to be conveyed as no one but Waheguru can judge that.

    Going back to what I started with about the reason behind a name (the first 2 paras in this post), it is easy to understand what brother Balbir Singh has pointed out.

    Still, no one can ever have or even should try to say a final word in matters pertaining to Gurbani because even a single Gursikh has many a times realized within one life time deeper and deeper thoughts being conveyed with the same words in Gurbani that is again as we graduate from primary classes to postgraduate level, or beyond, of understanding of Gurbani.

    This is a 'bottomless ocean' or an 'unsurmountable peak' and the 'deeper one goes' or 'higher one rises,' the realization of unthought of secrets comes upon him. Pray that all of us are able to pick a few 'maanaks' and 'motees' from this vast ocean.

    Finally, I will be 'all ears' to opinions which might explain other views and pray that the 'Nameless' Himself sensitize us and help us in realization of the Truth.

    God Bless All

    Guru Rakha
     
  17. Archived_member2

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    Satsriakal to all and Gursidak Ji!

    Thanks for your efforts. I feel you have a lot more to share with all.

    You wrote about an individual "The primary reason for me to have a name is my own 'selfish' requirement . . ."
    Then writing about God you mentioned "to attach a name to the Lord serve the Lord no 'selfish' purpose."

    My curiosity is this. We get a name from our parents. Is this the selfish requirement of our parents or our own?
    Also, who gives names to God? What may be the purpose to attach a name to the nameless Lord?

    Your next sentence is this. "These 'names' infact are to aid us and the importance is amply described in Gurbani."
    Would you please elaborate your views how the names of the nameless aid us to get the results described in Gurbani?

    Further you wrote "Quite often various names of the Lord are even 'mis'used for superficial, short-sighted 'self gratifying' goals which are in conflict with the 'divine intended purpose' and bringing out a name of the Lord which has been mercifully bestowed upon us to benefit us in our journey of the ultimate realization."

    I feel that God's Name is always divine. May it be lectured by a preacher to earn his bread or remembered by a selfless individual.

    I agree with you that one understands the taste described in Gurbani as his consciousness is.

    I pray for all that the day comes for everyone. He doesn't need to understand this taste. He comes to know the taste of Truth. And nothing remains to understand.

    Respectfully.


    Balbir Singh
     
  18. gursidak

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    Respected Balbir Ji

    I went through your observations and suggestions with utmost attention and cannot but agree with all of them.

    I am at loss to explain - although a lot of thoughts came to my mind but somehow didn't get to jot down a point-by-point response.

    The reason, as I have been firmly stating, and will rephrase here is that whatever I penned down was the thought process of my very narrow mind and, if at all, presents a very narrow band of the WIDE spectrum of Gurbani and Waheguru.

    I believe I have already bloated my limited intelligence of affairs in 2 very long posts on this topic and would eagerly like to absorb your's and other's more refined and Gurmukh Vichars so that I can catch a semblance of Waheguru's love which his loved ones have a much more clearer vision of than I can ever dream of.

    Please look sympathetically at my inability to answer a few of your questions and help me in inculcating a wider sense of the affairs of Waheguru from various different points of views.

    Last but not the least, I owe apologies for having taken lot of your time when I am unable to provide conclusive thoughts - but better late than never. Now, I can quietly observe more knowedgeable thoughts and God willing increase my understanding and knowledge.

    With deepest regards and utmost respect.


    God Bless All

    Guru Rakha
     
  19. Archived_member2

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    Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakal!

    Dear Gursidak Ji!

    God has made everyone with HIS complete wisdom. You are not an exceptional case. There is no reason to feel less competent.

    God alone is behaving in all and that also in the perfect way.

    The feeling of being incompetent is blaming God of being incapable.

    With True Simran this ignorance starts melting and vanishes.

    I wish to come now to the peculiar question asked by Caramel Chocolate Ji.

    He asked "Is WAHEGURUJI nameless?"

    He gave the nameless a name 'WAHEGURUJI'. And then asked the amusing question.

    God is not only nrinaamay (nameless). He is also nrikaamay (without any act), nridhaatay (without any element), and . . . and without all the worldly matters. One's mind can recollect.

    One may give a name to everything his mind can know or imagine. The mystic 'Nannaa' is to be added before or after it.

    Only this way, when completeness of God is realized, the question like 'is WAHEGURUJI nameless' do not arise in mind.

    God is not only nameless (nirguna swaroop). God is all names too. (sarguna swaroop).

    All is God and all names are HIS.

    Still, the grace of God is realized when through the particular name (Shabad Guru) HIS nirguna swaroop is witnessed.

    A living person knows only a part of HIS sarguna swaroop and feels incomplete.

    After realizing HIS nirguna swaroop one becomes complete with The Holy Wholly.

    This is the blissful consequence of Simran.

    Love.


    Balbir Singh
     

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