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Islam Muslims!

Discussion in 'Interfaith Dialogues' started by CaramelChocolate, Dec 9, 2004.

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  1. CaramelChocolate

    CaramelChocolate
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    It's all around me, but still I try not to be anti-Muslim.... right now I am on the brink of re-considering my respect for Muslims. [Why should I respect them when they don't respect me?]

    From my experience, Muslims have been very intolerant and disrespectful of others without knowing the full facts. When you get into a deep conversation about something they will show their true colours.

    Today in college we were walking at break, me, and my friends, one is Muslim [however, she believes in equality, was born a Sikh, open minded and liberal for a Muslim].... however, when I asked her, what she would do if her child was gay: "I would stand back and watch the father beat him/her".

    I don't respect her, and to be honest I don't think I can respect Muslims at all now. Because at the end of the day, most of them have this deep down belief of how dirty non-Muslims are.

    One thing I have noticed about them, is that if you mention about your devotions to a religion other than Islam they will respond in a way that seems odd, usually "ok" with an odd tone of voice, like they are laughing in their head or hating the fact you have participated in non-Islamic worship.

    Sorry for all that, I had to vent that out.

    Islam itself is not a cult, but Muslims seem to act like they are following one... Sorry to generalise but I have noticed this in most cases.

    ~CaramelChocolate~
     
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  3. S|kH

    S|kH
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    Hmm, you do realize being gay is directly against Islam?
    It's not even a question, you can't even bring it up, like the way you bring it up with Sikhi.

    For that, actions are punishable, and under those circumstances most muslims believe the father is the punisher. It's really not anything new....just kinda saying, you should have expected an answer like that?

    First of all, I don't think a person even needs to be religious for them to say what she said. Because homosexuality is just different than what they do, they hate it.

    Second, you being gay, you shouldn't expect society to open up arms happily, and you should realize you will always be in a miniority, and should DEFINETLY not assume Muslims or Christians will help you. Both of these religions state explicitly that homosexuality is against them. If you don't expect anything from people, than they can't harm you.

    Personally, I wouldn't beat the hell out of my child if he was gay, but I would be dissappointed. Similar to how I would be dissappointed if he made many other bad decisions. Gave up sikhi, kesh, procreation...they have all gotten mankind so far, and for him to just give one up, would be a huge dissappointment to me. If he chose not to procreate, I would be dissappointed in the same way that if he chose to abuse the sacredness of sexual activity and became a porn-star.

    Does this make your impression of all Sikhs bad now? Because of the things I've stated are my personal opinions? Or, because of our debate in the other topic on gay issues, wouldn't you expect an answer like this from me, because you mostly know my views on the issue.

    If you take away the expectation, no answer will harm you.

    I use it with the "dating game". Since I have a beard, I'm automatically not too attractive, nothing to get bent up on. I just dont expect girls who have no assosciation with Sikhs to look at me in a respectful manner or have interest in me (physically). If it happens, it happens, but when you expect an answer, you are often let down, and then generalizations and hatred arises.

    Anyways, your friend is still your friend, and I assume she knows your gay? Therefore, she still practices equality as she probably doesn't treat you all that much different. But, when its your own family its something else. I dont think you should really get mad about it. You'll face worse things in life, why do you care how she raises HER child? She probably has dreams of little grandchildren running around, or that one day she will be there when her daughter gives birth to a grandchild like the way she gave birth to her daughter. But, homosexuality destroys all that, it's a big thing, it changes dreams of your children in one slash.

    I'm sure you have dreams to that involve other people and their actions, possibly loved ones that are really close to you. If they made a decision that completely changed your dreams, I'm sure you would feel hurt or dissappointed. As far as the whole beating the child thing goes, I think thats a bit far, and wrong.

    Just don't be angry man..
     
  4. etinder

    etinder
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    the below are the few quotes from Sri guru granth sahibji,gurus have clearly stated what to do and how to react in the situation where u get slandered and people call u all sorts of names.

    isrIrwgu mhlw 1 ]
    sireeraag mehalaa 1 ||
    Siree Raag, First Mehl:



    ijqu boilAY piq pweIAY so boilAw prvwxu ]

    jith boliai path paaeeai so boliaa paravaan ||
    Those words are acceptable, which, when spoken, bring honor.

    iPkw boil ivgucxw suix mUrK mn Ajwx ]
    fikaa bol viguchanaa sun moorakh man ajaan ||
    Harsh words bring only grief. Listen, O foolish and ignorant mind!


    This Shabad is by Guru Amar Daas Ji in Siree Raag on Pannaa 88


    mÚ 3 ]


    pr inMdw kry AMqir mlu lwey ]
    par ni(n)dhaa karae a(n)thar mal laaeae ||
    He slanders others, and pollutes himself with his own filth.

    bwhir mlu DovY mn kI jUiT n jwey ]
    baahar mal dhhovai man kee joot(h) n jaaeae ||
    Outwardly, he washes off the filth, but the impurity of his mind does not go away.

    sqsMgiq isau bwdu rcwey ]
    sathasa(n)gath sio baadh rachaaeae ||
    He argues with the Sat Sangat, the True Congregation.

    Anidnu duKIAw dUjY Bwie rcwey ]
    anadhin dhukheeaa dhoojai bhaae rachaaeae ||
    Night and day, he suffers, engrossed in the love of duality.


    and very clearly stated

    This Shabad is by Guru Nanak Dev Ji in Raag Aasaa on Pannaa 473

    mMdw iksY n AwKIAY piV AKru eyho buJIAY ]
    ma(n)dhaa kisai n aakheeai parr akhar eaeho bujheeai ||
    Do not call anyone bad; read these words, and understand.
    mUrKY nwil n luJIAY ]19]
    moorakhai naal n lujheeai ||19||
    Don't argue with fools. ||19||



    This Shabad is by Guru Nanak Dev Ji in Raag Aasaa on Pannaa 473

    sloku mÚ 1 ]
    salok ma 1 ||
    Shalok, First Mehl:

    nwnk iPkY boilAY qnu mnu iPkw hoie ]
    naanak fikai boliai than man fikaa hoe ||
    O Nanak, speaking insipid words, the body and mind become insipid

    This Shabad is by Guru Amar Daas Ji in Raag Vadhans on Pannaa 594

    mÚ 3 ]
    ma 3 ||
    Third Mehl:




    rsnw iPkw bolxw inq inq hoie KuAwru ]
    rasanaa fikaa bolanaa nith nith hoe khuaar ||
    and who speaks insipid words with his tongue, is ruined, again and again.

    nwnk ikriq pieAY kmwvxw koie n mytxhwru ]2]
    naanak kirath paeiai kamaavanaa koe n maettanehaar ||2||
    O Nanak, he acts according to the karma of his past actions, which no one can erase. ||2||




    </FONT>

    gurufateh


     
  5. CaramelChocolate

    CaramelChocolate
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    Thanks for the quotes Etinder and thanks S|kh for the helpful advice.

    Being gay is not directly against Islam, Islam is directly against gays. Nowhere in any Islamic scripture does it say "you cannot love the same gender", "you cannot be attracted to the same gender".

    This is just the general attitude of the Abrahamic religions [homophobic, absolutism].

    The religions do not state this, but it is the followers of the religions who claim it. They user their religion as an excuse to say their hate is OK.

    Due to my views on the Abrahamic religions, Hindus, Sikhs, Pagans, Jains and any other Non-Abrahamic religion followers that are homophobic, are Muslims/Christians/Jews in my mind. Such an idea of homophobia and homosexuality being wrong comes from the followers of these types of religious followers.

    Homosexuality is not a bad. Homosexuality is not a decision, Homosexuality is not a bad decision. The only decisions within sexuality as a whole is the choice to be promiscous or not.

    Yes but at least you respect people.... You may think that I have chosen to be a godless sinner for some reason or another [maybe I hate the Lord?]
    But you do not go to the extreme of wanting all lands to follow your laws, and your ways and you do not inflict harsh words or violence on others.

    Hmm, well, I have seen some very cute Sikh guys WITH full beards... ;) :D

    She may practice it but she doesn't really believe it deep down.

    People like her should never have kids.

    I care how she would raise her child if it was gay, as I am gay myself I care about these issues

    LOL. Does not destory that. There are many other ways to have children. And if she thinks like that, then it is selfish and egocentric that she wants others to live their life a certain way to make HER happy [being straight, having kids].

    The problem with me responding to this in general is your view on it not being a choice. But I will respond to this point in terms of my view...
    Yes, I would be dissapointed if they made such decisions that I did not want them to make, but with things like sexuality which in my view are genetic, you have to account for. People have to lean to be less specific with their dreams..... I.E. instead of "I want a son who will marry, have 2 daughters", make it "I want a child who will settle and be happy and do what makes him/her happy".

    ~CaramelChocolate~
     
  6. S|kH

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    Islamic scripture speaks against forms of "anal sex" as sexual intercourse. Yes, so it doesn't say you can not love the same gender, but it does say, one who puts in the rectum will go to hell, or something along those lines. If there's another way a gay couple can have sexual intercourse...I'm unaware lol.

    Isn't sodomy and anal sex also against Christianity? Which would make pretty much any form of sexual activity between gay couples against the religion. (This one is actually written in the scripture but hardly practiced...atleast the sodormy ones).

    Homosexuality in essence IS a decision, whether it is bad or not is up to the individual. Let's leave the whole "genetic -- choice" thing out for now, but you do actively make the decision to perform Homosexual activities, so in essence it IS a decision. Just like heterosexuals make a decision to have sex.
    In Abrahamic religions, homosexuality if you take it to mean love for the same gender is OK, but performing sexual acts with the same gender is what is banned.

    Hate the sin, but love the sinner. -Jesus :)

    hahah

    But, you can not and SHOULD not do anything about it, unless of course it does result in the extreme abuse. But, remember that she's still young, and once she raises a child 16 years of love, and the child turns gay, she WILL NOT let her father beat her child. Unless she just hates the kid or something. This is just something of age, she will most likely mature. (I'm assuming she's the same age as you). You CAN not try to force her to think that being gay is ok, because its the same thing then...your forcing your belief on others, the same thing you dont want them doing to you ;). Of course, if the child gets beaten, you need to take appropriate action then (anyone does).

    It does destroy dreams man..


    lol yeah thats true, arguements between me on you these topics are fruitless...cuz it boils down to the same thing...choice vs. genetics, neither of which have been proven.
     
  7. CaramelChocolate

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    So you are saying that the attraction is not chosen, but the act is... Fair enough... So, what counts as a homosexual act to you? [Just curious to know as I wish to know if I am a homosexual in your eyes lol] But even if you say that attraction is a choice, I did not choose it. BUT, something that I will never no, is that if it was an unconscious choice.... How would I know if it was an unconscious choice? I would never be able to know.

    Ah, true I guess. But such liberalists like JOSEPH FLETCHER took an intrinsic teleological approach and said the only absolute should be that of LOVE.... so if the intention and the outcome was loving, then homosexuality was ok. You might want to look up on Joseph Fletcher.

    ~CaramelChocolate~
     
  8. basha

    basha
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    Hey caramel sugar, Im a muslim to help you out. Believe it or not some muslims are open minded to other religions, why shouldnt any relegion be open minded to others, after all we are here to help humanity and not help each other profit. Religion is not a bussiness!! Anyway, about the Gay issue and Islam. Think about it, who cares what Islam says, just think, is being Gay out of choice (not if your genetically inclined to it like hemaphrodites) a good thing or bad thing for humanity. Sikhism is all about family, well where can i get a family goin if im GAY!! Its as simple as that. Being gay = decrease in family (cuz you cant have kids and cuz there is no mother to help you raise your kids, and btw, you know a mother is an integral part of any kids growing up, neither of us would be as marvelous as we are without our mothers fine tuning us and loving us, cant replace a mother with a homo, sorry). Anyway aside from being totally homophobic, I also happen to respect them as human beings, Ive had a boss who was gay and I run into gay people all the time, I treat them like any other person, believe it or not that usually surprises them, so its not too far off to say that they are gay cuz people treat them different, so they start thinking that they are really different. So I treat them with respect and respect their rights just as they respect mine. Any other info, lemme know caramal suger. Oh, and I posted something in another thread about your question about Shiism, I can repost it here if youd like. Later.
     
  9. CaramelChocolate

    CaramelChocolate
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    Gay people must be a part of God's plan, they just must... I don't think such a thing would exist if it was a choice. Being a homosexual I can tell you that I have definately not made this choice to my conscience knowledge.
    The amount of gay people has always stayed the same, so humaity will not end due to gays.
    I do agree that Mothers have a natural instinct for her biological children as her children being inside her brings along that attachment, however for those Mothers that adopt the attachment takes time but still there will be a Motherly instinct and nature that I do not think any man can have. Maybe women are meant to care for children adn that is their role. SO maybe man-man couples should not be allowed kids and women-women and man-women should, but that's not really important.
    If you look at all of my post I have discussed homosexuality in length many times, those posts may interest you if this is a subject you are interested in.
     
  10. basha

    basha
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    No Im sorry I dont want to read your posts about homosexuality. I refrain from that evil and wouldnt care to know other peoples opinion on the subject.

    MODERATOR : Dear Basha I would like to request that you choose your words cautiously so that it may not hurt somebody head on :{-:) ,as such I personally lliked your view point on many things As you know e every body is welcomed to give their opinion so take care :)

    And concerning your point about homos having a part in gods plan....ofcourse they are part of it, but not everything in Gods plan is good. There is evil in Gods plan. Rape and abuse exists, its part of the all mighty's plan but is it a good? Just because something exists, does it become right? There was a prophet in Islam by the name of Lut, maybe you should read about him. The people in his time were very backwards and had turn gay by the masses similarly to whats currently going on. God wiped out the entire nation of Prophet Lut cuz of this. In the Quran, there is a reference to those times of Prophet Lut, and God warns that when this happens again, it is a sign of the limits of people's backwardness (so its safe to say that we are at a very bad time in the history of humanity). BTW, did you say you yourself were a homosexual. If so, im very surprised at your contentness with doing something so foreign and evil as homosexuality just because it exists and because you feel that it must exist for a reason, especially given that you are a follower of Sahab Guru Nanak Ji. If you are the type which is not really sure, meaning you cant decide whether homosexuality is good or bad or just OK (it exists), you should look to the awesome resources you have, the teachings of Sikhism, to answer your questions. Please let me know if you want to know any specific verses from the Quran concerning this evil and Islams take on the matter. Take care.
     
  11. CaramelChocolate

    CaramelChocolate
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    Ok, stay stuck in the box of ignorance.

    [ADMIN EDIT] : Remember --> Keep it cool, Keep it tight...:) Please dont get personal. This rule applies to everybody. Thank you

    Rape and abuse cause mental and physical harm which is what makes them evil. Homosexuality does not.

    Prophet Lut outlawed promiscuity and sexual acts in public, NOT homosexuality.

    What is foreign about love? I am a white English boy, would you like to meet a few gay Amritdharis so that you can see that it is not a western chosen concept?

    Homosexuality, heterosexuality becomes evil when one becomes obsessed with sex. I am not obsessed therefore my sexuality is not evil. I believe in sex after marriage.

    I think you will find the majorty of Sikhs on this forum are accepting of homosexuality. Before anyone pounces I did not say everyone.

    [ADMIN NOTE] : Everybody has a right to his/her opinions. SPN respects that right but does not necessarily endorses these personal opinions.

    Yes friend, please show me where in the QU'RAN it says:
    + YOU ARE NOT PERMITTED TO FIND ATTRACTION IN THE SAME GENDER
    + YOU ARE NOT PERMITTED TO FALL IN LOVE WITH THE SAME GENDER
    + LOVING OR BEING ATTRACTED TO THE SAME GENDER IS EVIL AND WRONG

    [ADMIN NOTE] : Please continue with this fascinating discussion with open mindset... :) Enjoy !!!
     
  12. basha

    basha
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    Loving another person, whether it be a man or woman, is allowed. But to digress from that love and make it into a relationship is forbidden. Whether or not there is sex involved, you simply can not have a relationship with the same gender. And please, if I am open minded enough to talk to you when any average muslim wouldnt even do that, please be open minded to what I am saying as well. Dont dislike my comments just because they shatter your entire justification to be a homosexual. Only if you are open minded will you learn the truth, and the truth can lean towards your argument or my argument, it doesnt matter, because we follow truth or reasoning, not emotion and other falsehoods that exist only in our minds. Please try to understand the boundaries of each stage and of everything in life. Everything is significant in life, effecting other factors and eventually your entire existence. Yes, one bad factor about you can ruin your entire persona. I understand you are a very knowledgable person and a very unique and nice person, and you also love your fellow human beings, there is nothing wrong with that. Only when you digress from just loving to acting upon your love and wanting more than a hug from a person of the same gender, that is wrong. As a medical student, I can tell you the truth lies in anatomy. One doesnt need a creed to tell them what mans role in life is and what is good and bad for him. Just look at the anatomy of the human being, it is made for a man and a woman to enter into a bind, not for man and man. Please! Just look at the sexual parts of each gender, see how perfectly they fit each other. I would recommend to keep loving your fellow human beings (even if they are men) but also to think about what your goal in life is, is it a family or just a great friend until you die. Do you want to die from a life of reason or a life of emotion. Also, there are degrees to love, its not as straightforward as straight or gay. Many people are confused in their life and have second thoughts about what their love means for the same gender. In the midst of all this, if someone forbids you to do something (like i am doing right now), its more likely that you would be inclined to do what the other is forbidding. So as a result, more and more people, out of rebellion or just being affirmative of their love, are deciding to accept that they are homosexual. But could it just be that you are too nice for this evil world or that your friend is indeed a true and unique friend, or that you have not reached the stage of your life to even know what true love is yet. Believe me dont make this significant decision of life just yet, every decision comes after ages and ages of harsh/truthful life experiences, let your experiences in life let you decide what you really are. Right now, dont put too much significance in the whole gay/straight issue. Seriously, who cares? THERE IS SO MUCH MORE TO LIFE, COME ON! Even if you tell me how wrong i've figured you out, please understand that in the end, it is your life that you are wasting if you put too much significance to this topic. YOU KNOW HOW MUCH TIME WE BOTH HAVE SPENT ARGUING ABOUT THIS AND MEANWHILE WE COULD'VE BEEN DOING MORE CONSTRUCTIVE THINGS. Anyway, think of my opinions as just another opinion of just another person in your life that needs some thought, dont take it personal. Realize that soo many people are going through the same situation as you (gay or straight). I hope to god that he leads you to the right way and that your life not be a waste and that you achieve great feats and die from a truly beautiful life and find paradise, inshallah. Take care.
     
  13. CaramelChocolate

    CaramelChocolate
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    The same ignorant disrespectful religious crap that I am sick to death of hearing. The same ignorant lack-of-knowledge that makes the suicide rate for GLBT's so high.
    Basha - Stay in your box of hate-filled ignorance. I can't be bothered to even set people like you on the path of acceptance of others.

    ADMIN - Thanks for commenting on my post, shall I make the comment "the evil of being black" and see if I get blocked from this forum? Why did you not comment on her view of the evil of homosexuality? DO I have the right to have racist views in this forum just as homophobic views would be accepted as valid ones? Why did you comment on her post and not respond? No I am not racist I am not any 'ist' or 'phobic' but I should be allowed to be if others are allowed.
     
  14. Neutral Singh

    Neutral Singh
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    General Clarification : Hi Caramel, i sincerely apologise if i missed out on something as sometimes it becomes a little bit too hard to go through each and every post with due deligence... But rest assured the comments were totally General and NOT directed at you alone... you can check up with some of my comment on the messages by dear member S|KH on which i have made the same remarks i.e. SPN DOES NOT NECESSARILY ENDORESES THE VIEWS OF ITS MEMBERS... and also its my duty to make another point clear to everyone and that is SPN strives to be an open discussion forum and everybody has a right his/her opinions.

    I had no intention to offend you under any circumstances... again please accept my apologies if you felt bad or offended. and yeah there is a feature in this forum where you can report a bad or offensive thread/post to moderators/admin by simply clicking on it... that would help us a lot if everybody uses this feature... member should also acknowledge their resposibitlity to make this forum as clean as possible :) and have fun and enjoy life !!

    Best Regards
    Aman
     
  15. CaramelChocolate

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    Aman buddy it is ok, no probs... it is just an issue that I am very sensitive about and very passionate with... no probs :)
     
  16. singhaj

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    I think this topic was regarding Muslims and not just gay ... may be I am mistaken.

    I think the Mullahs are the one to be blamed for what's going on in the Muslim religion... until they do not stop preaching hatred against non Muslims (Kafirs) there will always be a controversy. Btw, supposedly there are lot of moderate muslims who donot agree with Mullahs, but they are ALL BUNCH OF COWARDS to say anything against these mullahs....... and then there are other who will come out shooting the messenger rather than the message.

    Regarding Gays, in USA, in last presidential election, the election race was so close... that Republicans (George Bush) had to bring the issue regarding legalising Gay marriage.. The reason to do that was to win the ultra conservative Christian votes.
     
  17. vijaydeep Singh

    vijaydeep Singh
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    Gurfateh Ji,


    First of all Das wants to say something about Islam.

    Islam is very good faith and if someone misquotes it or misusues it then that idiot is to be blamed and not all muslims or Islam.(in arebic one word may have 80 meanings).So interpetation of Islam is diferent in more then 70 sects.

    Das think that all muslims or Islam are not at all Bad.

    Das knows that there are some muslims in India and in old delhi,who are child abuser and does indulge in a forced sodonomy(namded after sodom,the city of Hazrat Lot Ahle Sallah).The God destroyed that city due to unnatural sex in there.

    Yes homosexuality is as unnatural as cannabalism.If some animal eat the self species in wild this does not justify us to eat man as it happens in nature.So if in nature if unnatural sex occuers then it does not means to approve it.

    Here das is targetting forced desire or Kama and not love.

    After the views of Das lets come for Sikhism.

    As per 2 of the triya Charitars of Dasham Granth,Homosexulity is mentioned(so that could have been written by Panth at that time so that we can answer the questions of present state(which was future then).

    In one charitar a curropt prince wants to force himself to a good looking young child and that child use his mind to savwe himself.

    In other Chritar(Charector depicted in story) ,A king wants to commit an adultory with a female,she sents a wrestler(more powerfull then king) instead of herself,who does Guda Bhog(bugering) with king. So lesson is that bad king is punished instead ofreward for trying to commit sin.

    So in both the cases,Sikhism opposes the forced homosexuality.If both partners are willing then,what ?Das is yet to come acccross,the answer.May be Sikhism is silent and may be not.

    BUT for forced sex be it natural or unnatural,All Faiths are against.Sikhism is no exception.

    Coming on to the gays
    and Sikhism
     

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