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Mool-Mantar

Discussion in 'Sikh Sikhi Sikhism' started by Ajmer singh Randhawa, Jun 3, 2009.

  1. Ajmer singh Randhawa

    Ajmer singh Randhawa
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    Veer jio Gur fateh!!
    Please shed some light upon the full mool-mantar because at some places it is recited upto "Gur parsaad." and at some places upto "Naanak hosi bhi sach."
    What does mean the 'Mangalacharan' and where is it used?
    There are many scholars on this forum so please educate us.
    Thanks.
    Ajmer Singh Randhawa.
     
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  2. spnadmin

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    Veer ji, Two good questions.

    Forum member Soul_jyot ji is the best one to explain the two ways of reciting the mool-mantar.

    On the second question - if I am not mistaken, there are a few discussions about that already here at SPN. I will search and give you the links for starters.

    Does this look to you as if we need two threads rather than one so the discussion does not overlap and become confusing?

    Thanks.
     
  3. Ajmer singh Randhawa

    Ajmer singh Randhawa
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    Thanks veerji, for taking the subject seriously by eeing it's importance. So far i have joined SPN, i am not aware of any such thread. In case if it has been discussed here, please answer my question in brief otherwise let it be open to discuss.
    Thanks.
    Ajmer Singh Randhawa.:confused:
     
  4. Tejwant Singh

    Tejwant Singh United States
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    Ajmer Singh ji,

    Guru Fateh.

    You write:

    Well, first and foremost every participant in this forum is a Seeker, a Learner, a Student, a Sikh in that form irrespective of her/his hue, creed of faith.

    From your previous interesting posts one can assume you have a great knowledge about Gurbani.

    So I would like you to shed some light on your own question from your Gurmat perspective and share with us. I am sure your insights will help us learn a lot from you about the subject.

    Thanks

    Tejwant Singh
     
  5. Ajmer singh Randhawa

    Ajmer singh Randhawa
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    I don't understand the means of Manglaacharan, so i asked. I was told by someone scholar that the Mool Mantar chanted upto 'Gur parsaad' is mangalaacharan and if chanted full upto "Naanak hosi bhi sach" shall be called Mool Mantar. This full Mool-Mantar upto "Naanak hosi bhi sach" is chanted once only in Siri Guru Granth Sahib Ji but many times upto ,'Gur parsaad.' So to clear doubts, i asked you through this forum.
    Thanks.
    Ajmer Singh Randhawa
     
  6. Ajmer singh Randhawa

    Ajmer singh Randhawa
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    Veer Tejwant Singh ji. I have just posted to clear my doubts. Your kind help is solicited in this regard. I have humbly asked to clear doubts and confusion. Thanks.
    Ajmer Singh Randhawa.
     
  7. spnadmin

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    Ajmer ji

    OK -- You are talking about

    <> siqgur pRswid
    ik oa(n)kaar sathigur prasaadh ||
    One Universal Creator God. By The Grace Of The True Guru:



    Nihang Sukha Singh Akaali ji explains it this way -- An appeal to the One Creative Supportive Nourishing Destructive Being, who is the Sat, always true, and who is found through the Grace of Guruji.
     
  8. spnadmin

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    On your earlier point, it is discussed at this link http://www.khalsanet.org/sikhs/inde...57&func=fileinfo&parent=category&filecatid=10
     
  9. AdsKhalsa

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    Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa...Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh..........

    As far I know and IMHO...Mool Mantar is Up to "Gurprasad".. because after that JAP starts...it doesn't mean to recite...but It means JAP baani Starts...Like Rehraas, Jaap, Sukmani, anand are baani's... We added Ji and Sahib to JAP baani... as a respect...and we added Sahib as respect to all baani's...

    now ..let me say something to support it...(these are given as support to me)....

    Many times in Sri Guru Granth Sahib... Whole Mool Mantar is written ..and that is up to "Gurparsad" (sorry I don't remember the count)...

    and many times Guru Ji had cut short it to "EK OngKaar Gurparsad"...or "Ek Ongkaar Satnam Gurparsad".... like we recite first 5 Pauri's and 40th Pauri of Anand baani (Anand Sahib- with respect)

    You will find "AAD SACH...JUGAD SACH...HAI BHI SACH..NANAK HOSI BHI SACH" in sukhmani baani (sukhmani Sahib) ...its same like "AAD GUREY NAMAH...JUGAD GUREY NAMAH..SATGUREY NAMAH..SRI GURDEVEY NAMAH" in sukhmani Sahib..while starting sukhmani Baani...

    This is compliation of what I heard in Gyani Amreek Singh Ji's katha broadcasted from Gurdwara Dukh Niwaran Sahib, Ludhiana, Khalistan....last month... and a talk with Raagi of Gurdwara from Bradrock road, farifax, Virginia.

    Now what I practice....., I believe in reciting more baani...so I recite upto "Nanak Hosi Bhi Sach"...like I recite Long Rehraas ...Long Chaupi Sahib..sometimes full Anand Sahib while doing Rehraas (Sahib)... its just what I think to made a habit of reciting more baani...but if I will be doing in Gurdwara.. I will do as per SGPC.short Rehraas (Sahib)..short Chaupai (Sahib)...6 Pauriyaan of Anand (Sahib) baani...and no Pauri.at last....because I don't want to confuse others with my practice...

    I hope this will help to clear you doubt...Actually Mool Mantar is up to Gurparsad...and we have practice that if we are doing it in Sangat...because that's what is true.and we are not supposed to divert the Sangat..but individually you are free to recite baani to any extent you want..may be up to full 1st Pauri of Jap (Jap Ji Sahib)...

    This is what I learned and what I feel...

    Chardi Kala.....
     
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  10. spnadmin

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    Ads ji

    This is an old controversy. Controversy may be too strong a word. Up to gur prasaad is taken as the Mangala Charan, and the managla charan can also take the form Ik Oankaar Sat Gur Prasaad, when used as part of the raag structure in Sri Guru Granth Sahib. The Mool Mantar includes every thing up to and including "Nanaka hosi bi sach" according to many authorities. The Khalsanet article with link that I posted gives the history of the "controversy." The act of shortening the Mool Mantar to end with gurprasaad was undertaken by the SGPC in 1932. The source states:

    In Sikh Dharm today, there are
    essentially two main schools of
    thought. On the one hand, we have
    the Sampardahs, which date back
    to the time of our Gurus; and on the
    other, there is the Shromani
    Parbandak Gurdwara Committee
    (SPGC), which was established
    relatively recently in the year 1925,
    and has managed to garner a good
    deal of influence over Sikh affairs
    by controling several key religious

    institutions.

    The article -- very interesting -- also provides information about the Sampardahs that state that the full mool mantar continues to Nanaka hose bi sach. Although the Khalsanet article goes on to say that the SGPC decision amounts to "heresy" IMHO that kind of rhetoric is not necessary. :roll:

     
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  11. AdsKhalsa

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    Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa...Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh...

    I got the count...I was listening to Katha broadcasting live from Gurdwara Dukh Niwaran Sahib...and Gyani Amreek Singh Ji- Chandigarh Waale told this in katha..

    Moot Mantr in Sri Guru Granth Sahib:

    33 (Sampooran Roop Ch)
    8 (Sanchep roop ch)
    526 (Ekongkaar Satgur Prasad)


    couple of days back I was listening to Katha from Gurdwara Dukh Niwaran Sahib, Ludhiana, Punjab.

    Gyani Sarabjeet Singh Ji gave a very good example on this...Only thing matters is Love, a stage of happiness (anand).... I don't know why Sikhs are fighting for Mool Mantr...Those who understands the basic concept of Sikhism....never thinks so much about this...Once you reach the level of Anand...nothing matters....only Anand matters..one can get that Anand even by saying .."Ek Ong Kaar Satnam "...

    if a boy take admission in Kindergarten...there he has been taught that A for Apple...B for Bat....boy has nothing to do with Apple or Bat at that time...its just to make him remember that its A.., B......and if you ask that boy to tell you the ABCD...he will say A for Apple...B for Boy.....have you ever seen a young guy saying in same manner ?....if yes...then even you will say that he is idiot and not yet matured..he is still sitting at entry level.....

    Once a student passes from one class....he has to sit in another class ...because he understood the earlier requirements that need to advance...and now can proceed...but if a student will say...no I want to sit in the same class..teacher will not allow him to sit in the same class...Teacher will say you don't have to love the same bench or class room...you have to move ahead...

    its the same way...don't get so much superstitious.... once you reach a level...these doesn't matter...We recite Baani to attain the level of Anand...which is from inside.... just listening to the baani...not feeling anything else...you are just feeling baani...........and once that level reaches...its even hard to move the lips...because one thinks that if he even move his lips...this condition might be disturbed...

    Chardi Kala.......
     
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  12. Gyani Jarnail Singh

    Gyani Jarnail Singh Malaysia
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    Actually all these words are applied by HUMANS..Manglacharan..Mool Mantar..Beej mantar..etc etc.
    Since such have existed in HINDU texts and religious culture...we Sikhs thought that we must have them too...so the more sanatanist..brahminised vedantist we are..the more we have of Beej mantrs, Mool Mantars and such.

    Manglacharan is a short THANKSGIVING/ARDASS/PRAYER type of composition that Every Kavi/poet/writer of a Granth/book.poem/Vaar etc WILL write to ADDRESS HIS ISHT..His GURU..His GOD..His waheguru..His Creator.... IN English sometimes the word used is PRE-AMBLE...a Beginning...this is used in Plays etc to explain the story/byline/short synopsis..or give back ground information so that everyone can begin understanding the Play...

    The EK Oangkar...to Satgur Parsaad ]] has TWO DANDEES...Finality is clear. It is just not one dandee but TWO.
    The TITLE [[ JAP ]] is also ENCLOSED by TWO DANDEES.
    Then the SLOK..AAD SACH..to nank Hosee Bhee SACH ]] again TWO DANDEES.and Number 1]] TWO DANDEES.of TWO SETS. Another NUMBER [[ 1]] appears after the First paurree to hsow that this NUMBER 1 is DIFFERENT and not succeeding the previous number [[1]] otherwisde it would be [[ 2]]!!
    GURU JI has BROKEN UP and set clear boundaries as to where each part STOPS. In Normal Sentence a FULL STOP means it STOPS there..and the next is a new sentence. SAME HERE.

    SO NOT only Has GURU JI placed clear STOPS to separate the Parts...Further through out the SGGS the Raags begin with "EK Oangkar..to Satgur Parsaad. ]]
    IT CAN BE SHORTER....BUT NEVER AGAIN IS IT REPEATED UNTIL the Nank hosee bhee SACH PART...not once !!! Again a CLEAR and unmistakeable Message.

    3. In the Hnadwritten Birs and in the Kartarpuri Bir which is the AAD Granth...the "EK Oangkar up to gurparsaad]] is ALWAYS at the TOP RIGHT HAND CORNER OF THE RIGHT HAND PAGE.

    It was due to a mistake by the PRINTERS that this VITAL POINT about the POSITION of "EK Oangkar to Satgur Parsaad" was LOST in Printed Birs/..and placed RANDOMLY...and resulted in COMICAL SITUATIONS...where the Bani and the raag titles and EK Oangkar gur parsaad gets all mixed up..INSTEAD of being given its RIGHTFUL Place at the TOP Right side.

    4. People always retort...WAADH bani parrhnn wich kee nuksaan hai...Whats the damage in reading more bani...NONE..is my answer..BUT then again..there are RULES and Grammar according to whch Gurbani is written..reasons why Guru ji placed TWO DANDEES and numbers and all. And my answer would also be..then WHY STOP at all...contineu till Mundawnni mh 5 and Slok EACH TIME you start reading Gurbani of SGGS...after all wheres the harm in reading more Gurbani ??...

    Actually those who just read GURBANI to CHANGE thier lives...NEVER worry or ask such questions...swaal jwaab dovehn kareh mudhon khutthah jayeh..ONCE a person in frull prem begins gurbani paath...he/she wouldnt want to stop....its THAT ADDICTIVE !! and they DO SEE ther lives CHANGING...for the BETTER...while the DHUCHHARS..the question for the sake of question...are never satisfied and keep on asking..and never changing...as they run from pillar to post..from one "sant/Brahmgiani" to another "Gyani/Granthi"..and before you know it..WAHEGURU CALLS..and its all over..Baba BOLTEH THEH KHAAN GAYEH ?? the questioner is SILENCED...
    So my beantii...READ GURBANI in order t o CHANGE YOUR OWN LIFE !!:happy::happy::D:D
     
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  13. prakash.s.bagga

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    AJMER SINGH Ji,

    It would be important to verify from SGGS the status of MOOL MANTRA By the grace of SATi Guru ji as I understand from Gurbaani that there is no such indication that the very first line along with SYMBOL is to be known as MOOL MANTRA.
    About MOOL MANTRA there is a Quote at pp 1040 of SGGS you may look at this message . This may help in getting the answer you are looking for.
    With best wishes

    Prakash.S.Bagga
     
  14. Ajmer singh Randhawa

    Ajmer singh Randhawa
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    My article MOOL MANTAR:redturban: is published on Sikhiwiki also,
    Now let us find out that Guru ji defines the qualities of Lord Akal Purakh in the beginning and then Jaap (Recitation) starts but to our amusement, to whom we have to recite ? Guru ji further explains as AADI SACH JUGAADI SACH !! NANAK HOSI BHI SACH !! MEANS—the divine master, the current of this primeval Truth (God) has continuously been moving since before the beginning and throughout the Ages. He is verily the Truth and will continue to be the Truth for ever. The True Guru has made available (for me) the glimpse of this Truth.
    To know this truth we shall have to observe and then define like this that, ‘ Guru Nanak Dev ji preaches his devotee Sikhs to recite thy true name of lord Akal Purakh Waheguru ji which has continuously present before the beginning of time, present through the ages and shall be present (true) throughout the ages. He is the only truth and let us define is true qualities as follow:-
    IK-ONKAAR SATINAAM KARTAA PURAKH NIRBHAO NIRVAIR AKAAL MOORAT AJUNI SAI BHN GUR PARSAADI !! JAP !! AADI SACH JUGAADI SACH !! HAI BHI SACH NAANAK HOSI BHI SACH !! 1 !!He is the only one existed himself and created this universe, which is the only truth, which is fearless , away from enmity, close to everyone, timeless, shapeless, omnipresent, unborn, self-existent, away from births and death, self enlightened, ocean and the source of knowledge, which can be known by the grace of the master (Guru) only. So O Man, recite that Akal Purakh and his name which was before the time (periods), he is true from ages, Guru Nanak Dev ji says that he shall always be true in future too.
    1)-The Mangala Charan appears in various forms as follows: It has been composed in Sri Guru Granth sahib ji by Guru ji like this——Ik ongkar satnam gurprasad(2 times)
    2)– IK ONGKAAR SATNAAM KARTAA PURAKH GUR PARSAAD !! (9 TIMES).
    3)- IK ONGKAAR SATNAAM KARTAA PURAKH NIRBHAO NIRVAIR AKAL MOORAT AJUNI SAI BHN GUR PARSAAD !! (33 TIMES)
    4)- IK ONGKAAR SATGURU PARSAAD !! (523 TIMES)
    "ਸਚ ਬਿਨੁ ਸਤੁ ਸੰਤੋਖੁ ਨ ਪਾਵੈ ॥ ਬਿਨੁ ਗੁਰ ਮੁਕਤਿ ਨ ਆਵੈ ਜਾਵੈ ॥ ਮੂਲ ਮੰਤ੍ਰੁ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਰਸਾਇਣੁ ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਪੂਰਾ ਪਾਇਆ ॥੫॥ *Ang 1040."
    Here also if you see the definition of this line, it also states that the thy true name is only madiciens of soul and that true naam is—thy name only of Akal Purakh and his qualities are given from ‘Ik-onkaar to Gur Parsaad’. But futher stressed to recite this true naam only completes the mool mantar upto “Nanak hosi bhi sach.” The baani of Japuji sahib begins from here. The first stanza (Pauri) from “Soche soch na howai..” so where are the doubts?
    Thus, if we go through the meanings from “IK-ONKAR... To… Nanak hosi bhi sach!!” 1 !! We find beyond any doubt the completion of Mool Mantar and this whole Mool Mantar compiled in the beginning of Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji is recited once only which certifies it’s importance. Whereas different forms of Managalaachran are seen and applied at various places in Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji.
     
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  15. prakash.s.bagga

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    AJMER SINGH Ji,
    Thank you for your response but this is not the answer to my question.
    You may pl refer me any quote from Gurbaani which can indicate that the very first line is to be known as MOOL MANTRA.I require answer in YESor NO.

    Dear Ajmer Singh Ji what I understand is that the very first line is Basically a COMPLETE introduction of THE CREATOR and QUALITIES OF THE CREATOR.Certainly its understanding is most important as the whole understanding of Gurbaani is based on Correct understanding of the intisic meanings of this complete introduction of the CREATOR.

    I may inform you I am also from DEHRADOON.My schooling is from SGNP inter college DEHRADOON and we are of the same age group too.So I would always feel niceto share my views with you.

    Prakash.S.Bagga
     
  16. Ajmer singh Randhawa

    Ajmer singh Randhawa
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    Glad to meet you, yes i am also from SGNP but as you refuse to accept the beginning lines in SGGS as MOOL MANTAR, it shows that you want to tell the world that Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji is without MOOL MANTAR.
    You should keep in mind that MOOL MANTAR or basic creed is always given in the beginning only.
    Am i right?
     
  17. Ambarsaria

    Ambarsaria Canada
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    Ajmer singh Randhawa ji and Prakash S. Bagga ji perhaps the following may be of help,

    http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/gurmat-vichaar/26802-mool-mantar-as-i-see-it.html#post143495

    Sat Sri Akal.
     
  18. Ajmer singh Randhawa

    Ajmer singh Randhawa
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    @Ambarsaria ji;That is the difference where i do not agree, i was a Nirmala sant also in my life and very well aware of Manglacharan and Mool Manatar.
    I have already read this post. It states as---Mool Mantar

    One needs to remember that “Mool Mantar” is separate from Gurbani “Japu or Jup”. At the beginning of Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji this mool mantar is stated, just like it is also written at the beginning of each raag (musical style of poetry writing in Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji). Bani starts form the word 'jpu' (Jup). At the beginning of Asa di Vaar the same mool mantar is present but it is not related to “Vaar” Gurbani. At the beginning of 'jpu' (Jup) the mool mantar it is written as (mMglwcrn) happiness and auspicious statement.
    I criticize it because the author describes the Mool Mantar is mentioned in the beginning of every baani like Asa di war---that is called the Manglacharan which has been applied 33 times in SGGS and hence it can not be called as a baisc creed (Mool Mantar).
    Mool Manatar can be applied once only and that may be verified by any hermits, may be Hindu or Sikh Nirmalaa.
     
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  19. prakash.s.bagga

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    AJMER SINGH Ji,

    I am only a very small unknown entity in the world so how can I tell the word.
    It is only SGGS ji telling the world.
    I have simply presented an observation and I may be wrong in my observation.
    But if my observation is wrong I need that verification .
    I am personally not prepared to agree if the re is no concrete evidence from SGGS .
    For me this is utmost concerned.Probably you may disagree with this .

    Prakash.S.Bagga
     
  20. Ajmer singh Randhawa

    Ajmer singh Randhawa
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    :eek:rangesingh:No Parkash singh ji, Please clear your statement whether you deny these lines as Mool Mantar or accept it or some other lines as Mool Mantar? Or you mean to say that Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is without Mool Mantar?
    Please clear your position.
    Please visit my blog in Punjabi language; http://moolmantardasach.blogspot.com/
     

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