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Pacific Miraculous Sign At Sikh Temple, Or . Is It Another Sign Of Sikh Gullibility With Miracles?

Astroboy

ਨਾਮ ਤੇਰੇ ਕੀ ਜੋਤਿ ਲਗਾਈ (Previously namjap)
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[quote Posted by Soul jyot Ref: #15]
Food for thought:
Doubt sees the obstacles
faith sees the way.
Doubt sees the darkest night
Faith sees the day.

Doubt dreads to take a step
Faith soars on high.
Doubt questions 'who believes?'
Faith answers, 'I.'

- Author Unknown[/quote]

Faith takes one beyond the Placebo Effect.
Just like the sakhi of Bhagat Fareed's mother who placed gur (sugar) under his praying mat.
 
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Gyani Jarnail Singh

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Randip Ji..seen a few videos of "lions" seated in barber chairs...getting their "manes" trimmed by Jackals...does that count as a "miracle" too ??..I mean the Rumallah kind of miracle ??

The Giddahrrs (jackals) that Guru Gobind Singh ji transformed into SHER (lions) are REAL STUFF and that is indeed a miracle...BUT sadly many of todays lions-look alikes... are circus lions....tamed by MAYA and fashion Prastee, fake pirated miracle-lookalikes !! Thats why the rumallah seems so "impressive"... to them..birds of a feather always fly together...Rogi ko deeseah sabh rogi...to a SICK person evrybody looks sick !!:tablakudi:
 

Gyani Jarnail Singh

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We had 10 Guru sahibaans...none had any GUR placed under their pillows..not even the youngest Gurus such as Guru hargobind Ji, Guru Har kishan ji and Guru gobind Singh ji...not even Babas Zoravar Singh ji or baba fateh Singh ji.....even though they wereobviously at the right gur inducing age !!,,they all managed to pass with flying colours despite no gur.

For me i take it to mean that Guru ji drew us a longer line..a tougher test...no more GUESS Papers...GUIDES...to help us pass....the time of guess papers, guides, past years exam papers, visible aids like the ant walking on the glowing red-hot pillar bhagat prehlaad was asked to hug....were of times earlier to GURU NANAK JI.
Guru nanak ji taught us to GO COLD TURKEY...no more slow methods..CLEAN BREAK INSTANTLY based on strength of Moral Character. Time to wear the janeau...the entire family preparing..Pandit has been called..the GOAT has been slaughtered..the entire Village.chiefs,, etc etc Rai Bulaar ALL are already invited and present. The Pandit extends the janeau to the Boy Nanak...NO PANDIT JI...NOT FOR ME..THANKS VERY MUCH. WHY NOT balak nanak ji ?..OH..heres the reason..not one or two but many reasons...
I am sure there must have been crying scenes..meree izzat da swaal hai puttar ji..meree paggh daa swaal hai..never mind..just wear it for a while..then when everyones gone back..you may remove it..may also have been whispered in Guru jis ears...OH this boy has disgraced us all in front of everybody..what will happen to the well cooked GOAT !! all wasted !!..........BUT GURU JI stood FIRM. he wasnt a "compromiser..a double faced sissy who had two faces..one for the public and another in private...NO Janeau means NO Janeau. Period. With REASON. and LOGIC. He had His Principles and He stood on them fast...and when He BROKE with the past..he didnt take it one small step at atime..He did it FAST and CLEAN...COLD TURKEY.

Sikhi is not Blind faith.( aannhee shardha).its when you have established the FAITH..then be BLIND to all temptations.IMPORTANT DISTINCTION- NOTE: FAITH first then BLIND..not BLIND first and then faith ).its NOT blind and deaf Shardha...its when you have CHOSEN SIKHI/GURMATT..then become Blind and DEAF to all DISTRACTIONS...follow ONLY the CHOSEN GURU..no more DUALITY..DOUBTS..etc. Thats why when the Olden days SIKHS had CHOSEN the GURMATT PATH....NOTHING..absolutely NOTHING could shake them !! Not the fears of horrible deaths, tortures, lalalch of princesses, royal palaces, riches, etc etc. IN GURMATT/SIKHI..one MUST have OPEN EYES, ASK QUESTIONS..CHOOSE VOLUNTARILY...and then once CHOICE MADE and certified with Khandey batte dee Pahul....then become BLIND and DEAF to all other distractions. Period. No more doubts duality etc.

Now a days...90% of the visibly SIKH..sikhs..havent really CHOSEN :noticemunda:. They are like the crowd blindly following a Nagar Kirtan..and along the way...some drop out..becasue a friend phoned....others get hungry..and go look for the nearest MCDonald...yet others tire of walking...etc etc..etc...slightest incident whereby a LINE has to be drawn like the One baba DEEP SINGH JI DREW before marching On to Amritsar towards CERTAIN DEATH...and 99% of the Nagar Kirtan Crowd will melt away...while in Deep Singh's case 100% Crossed over the DEATH LINE - without a seconds deliberation/delay.
 

Ambarsaria

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Namjap/Astroboy ji you keep forgetting what Gurbani teaches and the fundamental is to understand and none of this blind faith emphasis you keep repeating. Faith and close your eyes and believe in what I say (Babey, pandit, preacher, etc.), and such stuff is the biggest cause of mislead Sikhs.

Sikhism discourages it as strongly as it can while other religions encourage it as strongly as they can. That is fundamental difference in Sikhism and most other concepts.

[quote Posted by Soul jyot Ref: #15]
Food for thought:
Doubt sees the obstacles
faith sees the way.
Doubt sees the darkest night
Faith sees the day.

Doubt dreads to take a step
Faith soars on high.
Doubt questions 'who believes?'
Faith answers, 'I.'

- Author Unknown


Faith takes one beyond the Placebo Effect.
Just like the sakhi of Bhagat Fareed's mother who placed gur (sugar) under his praying mat.

The purpose of the gur was to make Sheikh Farid ji speak sweet? You are now insulting his wisdom and intellect. As soon as someone will say it was the pattern on his mat that he used to sit on that was the reason of his wisdom!
Let us see if we can try another method to understand as it is not as complicated as the covoluted ways of justifying blind faith or andh vishvas. Sorry I cannot say how much common wisdom is buried in this Qawalli. It is not Gurbani but comes from the people of Punjab, the land of our Gurus. In this case Bulley Shah.

I apologize it is in Punjabi, I will try to translate essence and I believe I may have already done so in another post,



Sat Sri Akal.:)
 

Astroboy

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Sikhism discourages it as strongly as it can while other religions encourage it as strongly as they can. That is fundamental difference in Sikhism and most other concepts.

Ambarsaria,
The views of your above post contradicts your post below.

It is not Gurbani but comes from the people of Punjab, the land of our Gurus. In this case Bulley Shah.

How is your post above related to the thread topic? Please provide some connections so I can follow your thinking. Thank you.
 

Gyani Jarnail Singh

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imho.. the "Gurr" was to bribe Farid Ji into saying his 5 namaz daily....each time he prayed..he found a piece of juggery under his prayer mat - thinking God put it there ( I dont know his reaction when he found out the truth later...and that he had been had by his mum all these years....just as kids in the WEST feel when they finally find out SANTA is a figment of the imagination and not what they thought he was all along...THIS is perhaps the BIGGEST REASON why the WEST is now leaving Churches in droves...BRIBERY DOESNT PAY no matter what the END ...ha ha:mundabhangra:
 

kds1980

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imho.. the "Gurr" was to bribe Farid Ji into saying his 5 namaz daily....each time he prayed..he found a piece of juggery under his prayer mat - thinking God put it there ( I dont know his reaction when he found out the truth later...and that he had been had by his mum all these years....just as kids in the WEST feel when they finally find out SANTA is a figment of the imagination and not what they thought he was all along...THIS is perhaps the BIGGEST REASON why the WEST is now leaving Churches in droves...BRIBERY DOESNT PAY no matter what the END ...ha ha:mundabhangra:

What if the same question is thrown back to us? What bribe Guru paid to Sikhs?
Why in last 30-40 years Sikhs left and are leaving sikhism at very high rate.Why they started hating their own roop and discarded it at very high rate?
 

Gyani Jarnail Singh

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Kds Ji,
The GURU paid no bribe...the present generation of Sikhs who are "leaving" NEVER really were Sikhs in the first place !! The Guru first went to Prison..Babar's priosn..then he faced the sword..Humayun's sword..then he sat on the Hot Plate...then he fought battles..then he had his head cut off..then he sacrificed his entire family and finally knelt down in front of the Panj to receive the GIFT that He gave us all...Where is the bribery ??

Most of the "deserters" are actually those who never even joined the army..they were just imagining themsleves to be soldiers...born soldiers simply becasue their fathers and grandfatehrs were real soldiers..and when the find the getting TOUGH..they LEFT. Period. many more such are being "Born Sikh"..and they too will LEAVE - even if their mothers feed them quintals of gur..simply becasue their mothers themsleves are gur-free - no sikhi, no gurbani, no gurmatt...NOTHING. These are the types who can be BRIBED to STAY/LEAVE...either with just gur..or kheer..or as in badal country..by chairmanships..leaderee..sgpc memberships..etc etc..95% of SGPC/Aklai dal members LOOK like SIKHS..inside they are EMPTY SHELLS....tomorrow the TALIBAN take over..these will be RUSHING TO CONVERT TO ISLAM !!!! just so they are allowed to remain pardhaans of gurdwaras, pardhaans of sgpc..jathedars fo takhats....CM of Punjab...all spineless bodies full of white blood of corruption...ONLY the GURU OF CORRUPTION can ever hope to keep them with him..not the Guru that is SGGS.
 

Ambarsaria

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kds1980 ji perhaps coincides with the growth of Dehras and Babeys! Concerted state sponsored covert destruction of Sikhism started before 1984! The overt destruction since 1984. Just ideas and thinking out aloud.

Any comments!

Sat Sri Akal.
 

Ambarsaria

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Ambarsaria,
The views of your above post contradicts your post below.



How is your post above related to the thread topic? Please provide some connections so I can follow your thinking. Thank you.
Namajap ji the message is pretty simple, your references to miracles, blind faith and preference and placement of Sakhis over understanding of Gurbani has no merit to Sikhism but is counter-productive or destructive.

Sat Sri Akal.
 

kds1980

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kds1980 ji perhaps coincides with the growth of Dehras and Babeys! Concerted state sponsored covert destruction of Sikhism started before 1984! The overt destruction since 1984. Just ideas and thinking out aloud.

Any comments!

Sat Sri Akal.

But Sikhs are going to Dera's and baba's with their own will.As a Religion we have some weak points.Non sikhs in sikhism and entitled for all the benefits ,they can visit Gurdwara's ,hear kirtan and also can do sewa but there is no Liability on them
.On the other hand Sikhs have all the liabilities ,so many do and don'ts. In this scene why will anyone wants to be a sikh?

Also it looks to me the Sikhs who kept their appearance did that because of Social reason rather than faith.Bishen singh bedi an ex cricketer now trims his beard when he is in 60s.Maninder Singh another ex cricketer of 80 s who used to plays with uncut hair now has very thin beard and just wear a cap ,may be very few head hair are left.In their prime youth they did not did this only now they are doing.Perhaps they know that now it is acceptable so its O.K
 

GodsDust

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Sat Naam Ji!!!

Why are you fighting my dear Khalsa ji over a worthless question...? If it is a miracle or it is not?

Even if it a miracle then what? : Naam japo...
Even if it is not then what? : Naam japo...

The only truth is "Naam" :))

The God is living inside you my dear... Living God inside us, our surroundings, our nature, this earth, this universe is the biggest miracles of the God...

Mann soche hai baith ke, kya shristi rachayi...?
Kan-kan main Prab khud base, fir bhe khoj na paayi..:)))


My mind is sitting and thinking...
How God has created this beautiful and mysterious universe.. ?
God himself is present in each and every minute part of this world, still we foolish people unable to discover this simple truth...


1) If you think it was one of a miracles: Just twisting the spelling a bit Mirackless, splitting it with hyphen: Mi-rackless or Me-rackless. Me means self and rackless - heedless or unaware. Then it means you thinks you are unaware. Unaware of "Naam".

2) If you think it cannot be categorized as one of the miracles: Again going with same twisting. It means you do not think you are unaware. You do not think you are unaware of his "Naam". It means, you are aware of "Naam". But if you are aware why will you argu or fight? If you really aware of "Naam" - the only truth, if you really understood the concept of "God", you become 'BRAHM GYANI". And a brahm gyani understands:
"nah kich janma na kich maray
apanay chalat app hee taraa."


Means -
that God plays his own play and no-one actually is born or dies...
it's all God's play and lives by accepting that...

Do not be bothered about that other says. If you understands the truth.. you will only enjoy the elixir of his "Naam"... and you will find yourself into the oceans of infinite pleasures...

Nanak Naam Chardi Kala, tere bhane’ sarbaht dah phahla!!!

Sat Naam !!!

Disclaimer: This is not intended to hurt feeling of any individual or community. These are solely my think. I beg your forgiveness if my wording felt offensive to anybody.
 

spnadmin

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God's Dust ji

Why then did you take the time to comment?

Some think the question is not worthless. Some think the dangers are so great that they must speak out. Some do not understand the power of nam jap. Others know you will never find it if you attach to "miracles." Some have forgotten the simple path of Sikhi. Some never knew it in the first place. Some believe that the message of Guru Nanak has been polluted with the conscious efforts of malicious people who promote miracles. Therefore they want to warn others.

And this is a Sikh forum after all. Sikhs have never been encouraged to retreat into silence. Ours is not the way of the sanyasin. We are warriors of the spirit and spirited warriors. Please remember that it is through a congregation of seekers that each one of us is helped to find the truth of what we seek.

:)
 

Ambarsaria

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GoldDust ji some comments on the following,

Even if it a miracle then what? : Naam japo...
Even if it is not then what? : Naam japo...

... the House that our Gurus built in which resides Gurbani and Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji, we all live. The same house is being set ablaze set ablaze section by section through this kind of Andh Vishvas (blind faith) and many other Babeys and such. Even more are being led into your line of thought and approach as close your eyes and just pretend nothing is happening and jap some kind of Naam.

Ask yourself if what will you do if where you live is set ablaze? Would you be sitting inside and doing "Naam Jap" or you will yell "Fire", find ways to put the fire out, etc. Our Gurus and Gurbani never teaches you to become a witness and do nothing.

I don't know who has been mentoring you or people like Namjap/Astroboy, but whoever it is who guided you in your past and present, you have learnt a very lopsided view of our Gurus teachings and Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji. This passivity and "Naam Jappo" stuff is creating a class of Sikhs within Sikhism whose generations to come will wonder what was this mumbo-jumbo about "Naam-Japo" as little of Sikhism tree or house could be seen.

Please don't look for Tuks and Sakhis, go for understanding and you will be paying respect to the Gurus and their teachings. You can Jaap-Naam but it may be futile and no more than abdication and self-serving as seen by the generations to come.

I mean to offend as my understanding of our Guru's teaching or Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji does not teach me passivity as espoused by you and the like. It is an easy way out and if taken by our Gurus you won't be Jaaping any Naam today. Please get a grip you are still relatively young even though research now shows that we more or less set our ways of perception as what we are going to be, very early on like between the ages of 6 to 10.

Please stand up and share and stop dishing out "Sholay Bathyreh" of a passive "Naam Jappo' combination. This is a dis-service to Sikhism and will take us to Hinduism which our Gurus so violently rejected. It gives you a nice cushy feeling but remember that is all it is.

Sat Sri Akal.
 

Astroboy

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Do not be bothered about that other says. If you understands the truth.. you will only enjoy the elixir of his "Naam"... and you will find yourself into the oceans of infinite pleasures...
Welcome to SPN, GodsDust. Nice quote. I believe Nam Japna has nothing to do with a cult-like followings. There's everything to gain with namjap and keep company with the sants which Gurbani talks highly about.

However there are those misleading cult-like organizations linked to Sikh Forums who try to brain-wash others to see only what they want them to see. Fortunately for some brave God-Intoxicated Souls, who speak out against 'them' at the risk of getting accused, banned or harassed against, manage to show us what reality is and what is falsehood. If they were to post such comments in those forums they will surely be sternly warned or banned. But if they start their own blog and provide links about these 'cheap' forums they cannot be banned. They become desperate day by day until a point of meltdown. Links can be provided.
 
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spnadmin

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What misleading cult-like organizations are you referring to Astroyboy ji?

I have not seen anyone so far say who believed that
Nam Japna has to do cult-like followings.
Though there are cult-like following who do blend it in.

I have not seen anyone so far deny
There's everything to gain with namjap and keep company with the sants which Gurbani talks highly about.

Wondering what you are talking about. Thanks.
 

spnadmin

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Astroboy ji

I thank you for your quick reply to my question. I even replied. But on second thought. You posted a link to a blog that seems to be shaping up to be for the purpose of forum bashing. Not related to this topic imho. I will restore your comment, but have deleted the link.
 

BhagatSingh

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The stain is truly miraculous as all stains are and everything else... you know the universe, time, etc... but I can't make out the khanda. I am trying very hard... What I can make out is the pope's hat. This is truly miraculous... for the christians though.

Here's what I did. I just turned up the contrast and darkened the entire image to make the marks appear more clearly and I could see the pope shining through it. Then flipped it vertically.

singh%20coffee.gif



I am sure by now people can see something other than the hat shine through the image... ahem... ok off I go...
 

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spnadmin

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Bhagat Singh ji

I was befuddled by your comment. Quiet a serious question. Are you saying you saw the Pope's hat on the rumalla? I could not tell.
 

BhagatSingh

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Bhagat Singh ji

I was befuddled by your comment. Quiet a serious question. Are you saying you saw the Pope's hat on the rumalla? I could not tell.
Serious huh? Will try...
Well I was doing things to the image and rotating it to see the khanda better. I was wondering... from what angle does that stain look like a khanda? (I see how it can be interpreted to be one but it's not really a khanda)
First I thought it was a seli topi or some kind of hat but the shape was not right (seli topi is very triangular) then it hit me, it was the pope's hat!

Then I started thinking about how the stain looks like a bunch of other things too but I will just keep them to myself. So yes, a pope's hat... on a rumalla. It is indeed a strange miracle. ;) Perhaps, God is trying to tell us to stop fighting over religion... no that can't be it... we will never know.

PS why did you get "befuddled"?
 

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