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Meat Issue Solved

Discussion in 'Hard Talk' started by stupidjassi, Apr 25, 2008.

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  1. stupidjassi

    stupidjassi
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    ABwiKAw kw kuTw bkrw Kwxw ]
    abhaakhiaa kaa kut(h)aa bakaraa khaanaa ||
    They eat the meat of the goats, killed after the Muslim prayers are read over them,
    OK So i think i have finally solved MEAT ISSUE Mystery.

    Look at the above line at Page No. 472. IT Clearly says 'Abakhiya Da Kutha' . Hence its clear that the meaning of word 'Kutha' is NOT meat but HALAL/Kosher ,which is one of the 4 cardinal sins.

    So In those times (Guru ji`s time) the word Kutha means Kosher/Halal.

    So Finally after thourought analysis ,from my side Meat is allowed unless its HALAL or Kosher or prepared by any ritual .

    Thanks
    Meditation Naam Simran
     
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  3. spnadmin

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    stupidjassi ji

    You know, you are really amazing at solving these unique problems in Gurbani. First the 10 hermits and now this.

    Thanks
     
  4. pk70

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    please Read The Whole Shabad Before Reaching To Any Conclusion!!!!
     
  5. spnadmin

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    oops! And sorry for jumping to conclusions AGAIN.

    But now I have looked and I think stupidjassi ji was only referring the meaning of one word.

    Look at the above line at Page No. 472. IT Clearly says 'Abakhiya Da Kutha' . Hence its clear that the meaning of word 'Kutha' is NOT meat but HALAL/Kosher ,which is one of the 4 cardinal sins.


    He doesn't seem to be commenting on the meaning of the shabad. That was my impression only. Just the meaning of the word. The shabad seems to speaking about moral corruption and spiritual hypocrisy.



    ਮਃ ੧ ॥
    ma 1 ||
    First Mehl:

    17 ਮਾਣਸ ਖਾਣੇ ਕਰਹਿ ਨਿਵਾਜ ॥
    maanas khaanae karehi nivaaj ||
    The man-eaters say their prayers.

    ਛੁਰੀ ਵਗਾਇਨਿ ਤਿਨ ਗਲਿ ਤਾਗ ॥
    shhuree vagaaein thin gal thaag ||
    Those who wield the knife wear the sacred thread around their necks.

    ਤਿਨ ਘਰਿ ਬ੍ਰਹਮਣ ਪੂਰਹਿ ਨਾਦ ॥
    thin ghar brehaman poorehi naadh ||
    In their homes, the Brahmins sound the conch.

    ਉਨ੍ਹ੍ਹਾ ਭਿ ਆਵਹਿ ਓਈ ਸਾਦ ॥
    ounhaa bh aavehi ouee saadh ||
    They too have the same taste.


    ਕੂੜੀ ਰਾਸਿ ਕੂੜਾ ਵਾਪਾਰੁ ॥
    koorree raas koorraa vaapaar ||
    False is their capital, and false is their trade.

    ਕੂੜੁ ਬੋਲਿ ਕਰਹਿ ਆਹਾਰੁ ॥
    koorr bol karehi aahaar ||
    Speaking falsehood, they take their food.


    ਸਰਮ ਧਰਮ ਕਾ ਡੇਰਾ ਦੂਰਿ ॥
    saram dhharam kaa ddaeraa dhoor ||
    The home of modesty and Dharma is far from them.

    ਨਾਨਕ ਕੂੜੁ ਰਹਿਆ ਭਰਪੂਰਿ ॥
    naanak koorr rehiaa bharapoor ||
    O Nanak, they are totally permeated with falsehood.

    ਮਥੈ ਟਿਕਾ ਤੇੜਿ ਧੋਤੀ ਕਖਾਈ ॥
    mathhai ttikaa thaerr dhhothee kakhaaee ||
    The sacred marks are on their foreheads, and the saffron loin-cloths are around their waists;


    ਹਥਿ ਛੁਰੀ ਜਗਤ ਕਾਸਾਈ ॥
    hathh shhuree jagath kaasaaee ||
    in their hands they hold the knives - they are the butchers of the world!



    ਨੀਲ ਵਸਤ੍ਰ ਪਹਿਰਿ ਹੋਵਹਿ ਪਰਵਾਣੁ ॥
    neel vasathr pehir hovehi paravaan ||
    Wearing blue robes, they seek the approval of the Muslim rulers.


    ਮਲੇਛ ਧਾਨੁ ਲੇ ਪੂਜਹਿ ਪੁਰਾਣੁ ॥
    malaeshh dhhaan lae poojehi puraan ||
    Accepting bread from the Muslim rulers, they still worship the Puraanas.

    ਅਭਾਖਿਆ ਕਾ ਕੁਠਾ ਬਕਰਾ ਖਾਣਾ ॥
    abhaakhiaa kaa kuthaa bakaraa khaanaa ||
    They eat the meat of the goats, killed after the Muslim prayers are read over them,

    ਚਉਕੇ ਉਪਰਿ ਕਿਸੈ ਨ ਜਾਣਾ ॥
    choukae oupar kisai n jaanaa ||
    but they do not allow anyone else to enter their kitchen areas.

    ਦੇ ਕੈ ਚਉਕਾ ਕਢੀ ਕਾਰ ॥
    dhae kai choukaa kadtee kaar ||
    They draw lines around them, plastering the ground with cow-dung.

    ਉਪਰਿ ਆਇ ਬੈਠੇ ਕੂੜਿਆਰ ॥
    oupar aae baithae koorriaar ||
    The false come and sit within them.

    ਮਤੁ ਭਿਟੈ ਵੇ ਮਤੁ ਭਿਟੈ ॥ਇਹੁ ਅੰਨੁ ਅਸਾਡਾ ਫਿਟੈ ॥
    math bhittai vae math bhittai || eihu ann asaaddaa fittai ||
    They cry out, ""Do not touch our food, or it will be polluted!""

    ਤਨਿ ਫਿਟੈ ਫੇੜ ਕਰੇਨਿ ॥
    than fittai faerr karaen ||
    But with their polluted bodies, they commit evil deeds.

    ਮਨਿ ਜੂਠੈ ਚੁਲੀ ਭਰੇਨਿ ॥
    man joothai chulee bharaen ||
    With filthy minds, they try to cleanse their mouths.

    ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਸਚੁ ਧਿਆਈਐ ॥
    kahu naanak sach dhhiaaeeai ||
    Says Nanak, meditate on the True Lord.

    ਸੁਚਿ ਹੋਵੈ ਤਾ ਸਚੁ ਪਾਈਐ ॥੨॥
    such hovai thaa sach paaeeai ||2||
    If you are pure, you will obtain the True Lord. ||2||
     
  6. pk70

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    Sorry aad0002 ji
    It was addressed to stupidDJassi, so there is nothing wrong on your part.:)
     
  7. pk70

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    aad0002 ji

    Guru sahib in this Shabad doent say to eat or not eat meat. It is all about A Brahmin who does different things like eating Halal, thinking he the one who is pure. In last Vaak, Guru ji concludes only by meditating on HIM leads to purity not the hypocrisy.
     
  8. spnadmin

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    Veer ji,

    Yes I agree that it is not about eating or not eating meat. My question was, is Guruji talking about hypocrisy (versus meditating on HIM). Or is the shabad abbout meditating on Him. Trying to rephrase what I was saying. ::cool:2:

    I am really sorry to be misunderstanding you if I am. Sometimes I miss the point. :eek:
     
  9. Gyani Jarnail Singh

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    Exactly PK Bhen Ji.
    The SGGS is about the MANN/SPIRITUAL...Mann jeeteh JAGJEET.
    In fact most of Gurbani is related to the Mann/spiritual aspect....the PHYSICAL BODY is seldom touched as it is self explanatory/common sense..even a baby will cry out to be fed when his physical stomach is empty....bathing/ceanliness/etc are all commonsense..BUT Most of us are not even aware when our MANN is HUNGRY...90% of people feed the body/fast the body/bathe the body/torture the body/..etc etc etc to gain "Spiritual benefit" !!! which is not as per Gurmatt...the Important aspect is MANN..which cannot be fed with atta/rice/jalebis/...cannot be "washed" in sarovars and tiraths....cannot be cleansed/purified by fasting/torturing/standing on one leg or upside down etc etc.
    THUS Gurbani is clear that BODY DIET....BODY "CASTES"....BODY HONOURS etc etc are NOT going to be of any help in the SPIRITUAL PLANE..there only NAAM JAPP/humility/LOVE/caring for others, sewa..etc will be of help..Hence Gurbani touches on thsoe aspects.

    The conclusion reached by Stupid Jassi is thus absolutley correct - Gurmatt and Gurbani is not the least about what you eat or dont eat..clearly stated..DONT EAT what causes your body/mann PAIN and distress, stops your naam japp progress. What GURBANI does FORBID..and VERY CLEARLY is...EXCESSIVE LOVE/INDULGENCE....in Gold/riches/beautiful women/horses/elephants/ ( modern day read BMW/Jaguars/Mercedes/Feraris)palaces/mansions/soft beds/scents/..SWEETMEATS !!! ( Jalebis, laddoos, barfis/gulab jamuns...) and last of all MEAT. Read Sri Raag Mh Pehla on pages 15 onwards of SGGS. Any self respecting DOCTOR/PSYchtarist will also ADVISE his patients exactly this....look at the DIABETIC/OBESE rates today...look at the greedy for money cheaters/politicians today... Can a person with a Diseased Body/Mind ever hope to reach GOD?? SEHAJ ....CONTROL..is vital to achieve this balance and total inner peace resulting in nama japping...

    Warmest regards
    Gyani jarnail Singh
     
  10. spnadmin

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    Jios, Gyani, pk70 and stupidjassi:

    Can we stipulate that we all agree with this statement?

    The conclusion reached by Stupid Jassi is thus absolutley correct - Gurmatt and Gurbani is not the least about what you eat or dont eat.

    Then I will stop asking the same question different ways.
     
  11. pk70

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    Giani Jarnail Singh Dhillon ji,
    Kindly dont use this Shabad for your own CHASKA, Guru ji is addressing to a Brahmin who eats Halal meat with Muslim rulers(which was/is not accepted in Hinduism, considered bad) and then claims to be pure one. It is direct hit only at his hypocrisy and need for The Truth, The Lord. Where ever you find mention of meat, for Gods sake dont twist the meaning of it. Eating or not eating meat is not even issue of this very Shabad. I wonder, if you want to support what you have said, why dont you quote other Guru Shabad( there are) where Guru ji directly discusses it. Read carefully before concluding any special meaning to support fulfillment of personal urges.
     
  12. stupidjassi

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    First of all thanks Giani Janail sing ji and aad0002 ji for your reply and thanks pk70 also for contradicting my points.
    I again wanna repeat
    -> Guru Nanak dev ji said 'fool wrange over flesh' , so no HardLiners please
    -> Same thing going on with 5k`s (KESH or KESKI) - I dont understand how person can cover their hair for rest of their life, they have to leave them open sometime at least , that`s not healthy either.
    NOTE:As fat as other 4 k`s are concern , according to my point of view they are OK. e.g. You shouldn`t leave kirpan for even a sec coz that could be the time when you need it.
    anyways just to bring the isssue.

    BAck to Meat eating: I personally avoid it coz its not healthy outside , and i dont know how to cook at home :D . But Whatever i found in gurbani i think Guru ji`s are not making any hard rules but just showing the importance of Naam. ( Same in the whole shabad - Asa di vaar , which we used for demostration )

    So basically we might be wasting our time discussing meat issue, which we can use in simran , that will provide more output . But at last i dont wanna say sikh should be vegitarian .

    thanks
    stupidjassi


     
  13. pk70

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    BAck to Meat eating: I personally avoid it coz its not healthy outside , and i dont know how to cook at home [​IMG] . But Whatever i found in gurbani i think Guru ji`s are not making any hard rules but just showing the importance of Naam. ( Same in the whole shabad - Asa di vaar , which we used for demostration )

    So basically we might be wasting our time discussing meat issue, which we can use in simran , that will provide more output . But at last i dont wanna say sikh should be vegitarian .

    thanks
    stupidjassi

    Doubtless, I agree. I also feel the same way bout about covering hair. Rituals take over reasoning, though sad it is. I cannot eat meat because, chicken, fish and all other creatures are visualized in my mind whenever meat eating is discussed. So I dont even think about it. Guru ji puts reasoning in us, we just make it stone like rule.
     
  14. Gyani Jarnail Singh

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    Guru Piayaree PK70 Ji,
    gurfateh.

    EVERY SINGLE SHABAD in SGGS that remotely touches on this "meat controversy" has been dealt with in the Par excellent Article by Randip Singh on this Forum..under title: ONLY FOOLS WRANGLE OVER MEAT.
    Unlike many anti-meat supporters who only quote one tuk ( or two) this article goes INDEPTH and quotes entire shabds.

    Its not aquestion of "MY CHASKA" or your "dislike"...its matter of true and faithful interpretation of GURBANI....not twisted or mistranslated to skewed and vested interests.

    At the time SGGS was written...there were ONLY HINDUS/BRAHMINS and MUSLIMS...Sikhs were being "evolved"....and only completed their evolution in /1699/ and post 1708. Thus ALL GURBANI addresses SADHUS, YOGIS, BRAHMINS, MUSLIMS, PANDITS....BUT it is FOR ALL ( SIKHS TOO )
    KABIR addresses ALL his banis to MUSLIMS..BRAHMINS..PANDITS..and THUGGHS of BENARES. There are many many MORE such "SIKH THUGGHS" in AMRITSAR....does any GURBANI TUK address these Jathedars/pujarees/granthis/gyanis/ragis ??? Guur nanak ji addressed the shabad..OOJAL keha chilkanna...the Shining white dressing of Sajjan thuggh.... so can we RESTRICT that shabad as ONLY to "Sajjan thuggh" and NOT a modern SIKH "Sajjan thuggh in shining hwite chola and white gol puggh...doing exactly the same things as Sajjan thuggh did ???

    GURBANI IS UNIVERSAL..and TIMELESS...NOT "restricted" or "time bound".
    Today the SGGS Gurbani is Paraksh in SIKH GURDWARAS....it would be pointless saying..NO JI..Guru ji is talking about Brahmins..I am SIKH..so EXEMPTED !!! OR Kbair Ji is talking about Hajj/ritualised slaughter of chickens..so no sweat as I am SIKH..not Muslim....Sheikh Farid is asking about not attending Mosque..why i bother as I am a SIKH..and Gurdwara is NOT mentioned anywhere...

    Regards

    Gyani jarnail Singh
     
  15. Gyani Jarnail Singh

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    Guru Piayario Jio,
    1. Its never a matter of ones own chaska/dislike.
    2. The SRM was arrived at by venerable notables....people ike Bhai kahn Singh nabha and the like who were much higher/Better qualified/more advanced/Real GURMUKHS.... than me and over 30 years of world wide discussions and submissions... AND THE SRM CLEALRY STATES SIKH/GURMATT VIEW ON MEAT EATING.
    3. TWO people did walk out of the SRM Committee - and they Based their objections to MEAT on their OWN PERSONAL VIEWS - these two were Bhai Sahib bhai Randhir Singh ji and Bhai Sahib Bhai Gurbachan Singh Khalsa. Today only the followers of these two - AKJ and Damdmai taksaal stick to an ANTI-MEAT rehat.
    4. Sikhism/Gurmatt/Gurbani is NOT at all about DIET. This is a personal choice. For the record i am also not meat eating....and also AVOID OVER INDULGENCE in all Ladoos, Jalebis barfis gulab jamuns as GURU NANAK JI advised in SRI RAAG mh 1 Page 15. Thus i remain perfectly HEALTHY and FIT.
    BUT i cannot let my PERSONAL views/choices override what Gurbani says...thus Sikhi/Gurmatt is NOT VEGETARIAN/NOT ANTI-MEAT.
    5. What is your take on the SRI RAAG mh 1 on page 15 of SGGS on the LIST of things Guru Ji advises NOT to overindulge ?? Any reason why ONLY MEAT is picked up by all and sundry and not a single word about all the REST ??? IF Meat can be banned why NOT laddoos jalebis ??
    6/ I will give you the Simple answer..Because MEAT is a RITUALISED SLAUGHTER/OFFERING/has Religious connotations in hinduism/Jewish/islam/christian/buddhist/jains/ etc etc...BUT LADDOOS JALEBIS etc are FREE of thsi religious connotation....BUT to GURU JI overindulgence in any and ALL of these is BAD. So arent we "sikhs" PICKING and CHOOSING ??

    Gyani jarnail Singh
     
  16. pk70

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    Giani Jarnail singh Dhillon Ji

    With due respect, I have to point out again that you just cannot say that in that Shabad, Guru ji is talking about eating or not eating meat. Shabad, though addressed to a Brahmin to expose his hypocrisy; it also doesn’t mean, as you pointed out correctly, it is not only for a Brahmin but for others too strictly in context of hypocrisy. What you are missing here is use of this particular shabad to justify meat eating as stupidDjassi hinted initially. My concern is that use the Shabad in its correct context. None of any vaak of this shabad takes on meat eating issue.
    Whatever you have put in your new post on this thread earlier has proved unequivocally a link to meat eating debate. In that quote, if I am not mistaken, Guru ji, indeed, addresses on meat eating because in that very Shabad , very explicitly Guru ji asks question” what is the difference of meat or “mustard plants, both have life” Indeed, quote that shabad in meat eating debate not this one. There is point that supports your views, definitely not in this shabad.

     
  17. ekmusafir_ajnabi

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    Dear All,

    Guru ji clearly say that
    "Maas maas kar moorakh jhagrey, Gyi-aan Dhi-aan nahi janeya"

    Who are those fools as per Guru ji. "Those who have no Knowledge of Gyi-aan and Dhi-aan". Until the sangat comes to know what is Gyi-aan and Dhi-aan one is not in a position to answer this question. There is a high degree of hypocrisy among Sikhs and they are quick to point at Brahmins or Vaishvanites for their short comings.

    Gyani Jarnail Singh ji, you are one of the esteemed supporters of Randip's essay
    This is a very big claim you have made "Par excellent Article". I request you to revisit the explainations/translations with a clear mind and then tell us if they are justified by your quote. You are qualified person on Gyi-aan. Can you throw light on the Gyi-aan that is being blindly ignored in the Essay. The very basis on which Guru Nanak Dev ji is calling the ignorant of such knowledge as fools.

    I am presently preparing a reply for that Essay that will go to every forum to hopefully clear this mis-conception if Guru ji granted my wish.

    Kind regards

    ekmusafir_ajnabi
     
  18. kds1980

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    ekmusafir ji

    Gyani ji is a well respected member of SPN from past 4 years.What he has been writing about meat is his his own views which he is writing from begining.Randip singh's essay came much later
    And to be honest Not even a single person has benn able to refute his views on this issue.So instead of branding each and every person as randip's supporter please try to refute
    what Gyani ji is saying
     
  19. pk70

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    Ek Musifir Ajnbi ji

    That is the essence of the Guru Vaak" maas maas kar murakh jhagre..", they do because they dont know really what is gyan and dhyan mean.
    The Vaak stupidDjassi quoted has nothing to do with meat eating at all. If any one finds pro meat Vaak they can quote that; however, I still wonder why Guru ji calls meat eating a "chaska" in a shabad goes like this, Icannot remember now" ete ras sreer ke..." In there ,meat eating is called one of Chaska, or about Lahore city where animals were killed in high numbers to fulfill meat urges? Will you give your views Guru message.
     
  20. kds1980

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    Dear PK 70 ji

    In the essay written by principal surjit singh ji I read that the line

    Page 1412, Line 10
    ਲਾਹੌਰ ਸਹਰੁ ਜਹਰੁ ਕਹਰੁ ਸਵਾ ਪਹਰੁ ॥੨੭॥
    लाहौर सहरु जहरु कहरु सवा पहरु ॥२७॥
    Lāhour sahar jahar kahar savā pahar. ||27||
    The city of Lahore suffered terrible destruction for four hours. ||27||

    Is misinterpretted as It is related to invasion and Not killing of killing of Animals because if it is related to killing of animals
    then why Guru Amar das ji wrote

    Page 1412, Line 11
    ਲਾਹੌਰ ਸਹਰੁ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਸਰੁ ਸਿਫਤੀ ਦਾ ਘਰੁ ॥੨੮॥
    लाहौर सहरु अम्रित सरु सिफती दा घरु ॥२८॥
    Lāhour sahar amriṯ sar sifṯī ḏā gẖar. ||28||
    The city of Lahore is a pool of ambrosial nectar, the home of praise. ||28||

    Because Killing of Animals or Eating meat chaska was not at all stopped by the time Guru Amardas
     
    #19 kds1980, Apr 28, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 5, 2016
  21. Gyani Jarnail Singh

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    Guru Piayare KDS 1980 Jio,
    Gurfateh.

    I have also read that the slok quoted on panna 1412 line 10 is written by Guru nanak Ji and that it refers to the butchering of animals in the early hours of dawn....so that meat would be ready for markets...
    BUT then Guru Amardass Ji added His own commentary in Line 11..
    Declaring that the Lahore town of extreme cruelty/slaughter etc has become...Pool of ambroisal Nectar/home of Praise....WHY ??
    Because of the BIRTH of BHAI JETHA JI ( later to become Guru Ramdass Ji )..... see how beautiful this is....the scorching heat of HELL on EARTH miraculously turns into the cooling pool of amrit and home of Praise by the BIRTH of such a Man of God like GURU RAMDASS JI.
    On the surface these two sloks look "contradictive" to each other but explained as above..the logic is clear...GURBANI is never contradictory.
    2. Chaska is related to "TONGUE"....taste buds...and EVERYTHING we eat is CHASKA. Hasnt anybody not heard a DAHI lover extolling the virtues of a heavenly thall of dahi freshly jammiah hoyah with a desi ghee prautha and achar ?? OR soembody else extolling the heavenly taste of DAAL MAKHNEE..Mahan dee Daal at Guru ramdass Ji Langgar in Amritsar * OUT OF THIS WORLD !!! some ones SAMOSAS...another famous restaurants burfee..soem halwaii's laddoos..churan laddoos..etc etc ALL are CHASKA..in fact this is called SWEET TOOTH...meaning a HABIT for sweets that is ADDICTIVE !! again this is CHASKA...
    2. I find people are being very choosy...whereas GURU JI declares RAS MEETHA..and then Ras MAAS...everybody with an "agenda" is busy attacking the MEAT RASS" and completley IGNORING RASS MEETHA whcih comes FIRST !!! ALL the BABAS..the Taksalis..the AKJs..the derawadees..ALL united against MAAS RASS.....and completly ignoring MEETHA !!! how FUNNY ?? Can anybody quote even ONE BABA preaching AGAINT "MEETHA RASS CHASKA" ?? Who gave us the right to pick and choose ?? Guru Jis LIST has NINE RASS listed..we just PICK "ONE" ( Vegetariansim as a "vehicle to reach GOD" is Brahmin/Hindu/JAIN based baggage we carry - my opinion)>>> WHY JUST ONE RASS ???
    PK JI please answer this..i would be pleased to hear your views.

    3. Guur Ji has warned agianst MEETHA RASS getting the better of US..and just see how many Doctors warn us agisnt SUGAR....how many Gurdwaras are now being forced to proivide sugarless Chah due to the DIABETES/BP/OBESITY/etc etc of the SIKH Sangats !!!

    I would be most pleased IF ALL SIKHS would get off this "anti-Meat" bandwagon and get cracking on spreading GURU JIs WARNING on ALL NINE Rass.... YES 9 of them and MEAT is LAST on the list meaning it is the LEAST important....ALL 9 rass are to do with our BODY..SREER and are DANGEROUS TO OUR HEALTH. Stop picking and choosing....ONCE we have all CONQUERED all the EIGHT preceeding rass then we can go on to vanquish the meat rass....victory belongs to the KHALSA.

    Regards to all
    Gyani jarnail Singh
     

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