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Marriage and Caste... Advice please

Discussion in 'Love & Marriage' started by missnice91, Mar 6, 2013.

  1. missnice91

    missnice91
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    Hi.

    I'm sikh and my father wants me to marry a Jatt but I don't mind.
    I don't understand why caste is a problem. Are there specific reasons for marrying into the same caste? Does it matter if I marry a different caste? Is my dad right? Do parents just want us to carry on the caste system or is there a good reason behind marrying into the same caste. Do different castes ractice differently? I'm jatt.. A guy I'm interested is Ramgharia. What do you guys think?? Can someone give me some advice please. Does sikhism say anything about caste and marriage??
     
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  3. Harry Haller

    Harry Haller United Kingdom
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    There are very important reasons for marrying into the same caste, it strengthens family ties, it keeps the caste line pure, it means that attitudes and philosophies are more likely to match, and of course it means that your children will be 100% pure jat, as opposed to mongrol half breeds with genes from who knows where!

    Sikhism?? uhm a while ago, a Guru had some far fetched idea about all people being equal and that life had more to do with how you treated your fellow being, how you treated Creation, to stand up for the poor, the weak, to be a rock for society, to completely ignore any control system that enslaved people, in fact, to be free from all superstitions and rituals, just to believe in the truth, and to live by the truth. I guess he would have something to say about this, but fortunately, he isn't here, but his spirit lives on, we respect this spirit by keeping our hair and behaving just as we did before he came along!
     
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  4. missnice91

    missnice91
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    So eventhough he is Sikh... You still think Caste is more important?
    Ok thanks for the advice. I think that as long as the guy can show that he is going to be there for me and look after me.. That' what matters. I'd rather marry out of caste to a guy who cares than to guy in caste who doesn't actually care :s.... However... If I am lucky enough to find a Jatt who does want to be with me... I'll go with that :)
     
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  5. findingmyway

    findingmyway
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    Harry veerji was being a little tongue in cheek. You'll soon get to know his humour as you spend more time here lol

    Sikhism does not believe in caste at all. All people are equal. Unfortunately caste remains strong as a cultural remnant. Sikhs should not believe in caste. How you tackle that topic with your parents, only you can know. Good luck!!
     
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  6. yummy

    yummy
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    The concept of caste has no place in Sikhi (or most other religions for that fact). It's a cultural concept which has just passed on through generations and most people tend to hold onto cultural concepts very strongly than what religion teaches because of izzat and the fear of "what will people say?" and losing respect and honour in society.

    Of course the argument is also that you will tend to get along better but that is only on the assumption you have these sort of beliefs. I know people who are from the same so-called castes as me but our opinions on things that matter vary to such a degree that I would never want to have family relations with them.

    Personally, for me, caste would be the LAST thing on mind. Infact, if I were to meet a prospective partner and he bought caste up as an issue and thought he was better/lower than me, I'd know for a fact that me and him will not get along from day 1 and it would be "good-bye" from me there and then as these are not the values I want to pass onto my future children.

    You have to decide for yourself whether that's important to you or not. If it isn't, you need to somehow explain this to your parents. And you'd need to make a very strong valid argument so I'd write down my points with references before approaching this matter.
     
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  7. Archived_Member16

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    FOR YOUR INFORMATION & CONSIDERATION:

    What are Sikh Beliefs about the Caste System?

    A:
    Sikhism instructs to consider all human races equal.

    Sikhism respectfully disagrees with the Hindu practice of caste system. Without any doubt the caste system has separated the mankind. Sikhism instructs to consider all humans equal, regardless of their class, color, race, gender or religion. Sikh Gurus have been strong supporter of equality and rejected the separation among mankind. "Your Light is the light in all beings, O Creator. All Your Expanse are True" (Guru Granth Sahib Ji, 1314). God’s light (soul) is within all and there is no difference between the souls of the humans from different races or castes.

    Furthermore, "All beings and creatures are His; He belongs to all" (Guru Granth Sahib Ji, 425). God does not love based on one’s caste or color, He loves all, He belongs to all. In addition, "Recognize the Lord's Light (Spirit) within all, and do not consider social class or status; there are no classes or castes in the world hereafter" (Guru Granth Sahib Ji, 349). Bhai Gurdas Ji writes "The special feature of the Sikh of the Guru: A spiritual leader sent by God. Gu means Darkness and Ru means Light. Literally translated, Guru means \'The Light that dispels darkness\'. Guru is a highly spiritual teacher who has been sent to Earth by God and is in direct communion with God. There has been a total of 10 living Sikh Gurus, who brought knowledge of God. The eternal Guruship (spiritual and temporal authority) lye in the Guru Granth Sahib Ji (the Sikh Holy Scripture compiled by Sikh Gurus and other devotees who themselves have attained salvation).')" href="#"Guru is that he goes beyond the framework of caste-classification and moves in humility. Then his labor becomes acceptable at the door of God" (The Vaars of Bhai Gurdas Ji, 1).

    Sikh:
    A follower of Sikhism. Sikh is a word derived from Sanskrit. Literally translated, the word means disciple or student. In the Sikh faith, the word Sikh means someone who strives to learn about God, is a seeker of God and truth, and someone who follows Guru Granth Sahib Ji to achieve such goals.')" href="#"Sikh Gurus made every attempt possible to eliminate the caste system. Langar: Free food service provided in every Gurdwara Sahib. People sit together on ground and enjoy the food served in the Langar. This act of sitting together on the floor symbolizes humble behavior and human equality. Langar also servers the purpose of feeding the hungry so that no one is left without a meal.') Langar was established where all people gather to eat food while sitting together at the same level on the floor, as there is nothing lower than the floor. Furthermore, by knowing the last name one could distinguish which caste the person is from, Guru Gobind Singh Ji: Tenth Guru of Sikhs. Guru Gobind Singh Ji fought against Muslim extremist to protect the people of India. He stated that one need to be spiritual and in order to protect his or her spiritual beliefs, one should be a warrior too. He was the last living Guru of Sikhs, compiled the teaching of all Gurus and Sikh devotees into a Holy Scripture known as Guru Granth Sahib. He then gave the Holy Scripture the status of the eleventh Guru. He said, \'He who wants to meet God, find the way in the Shabad\'.')" href="#"Guru Gobind Singh Ji gave all Sikh men the last name "Singh" and all Sikh women the last name "Kaur" so that no one can distinguish anyone’s caste. Everyone is considered equal in Sikhism.

    source:
    http://www.realsikhism.com/index.php?subaction=showfull&id=1248369635&ucat=7

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    SIKH REHT MARYADA - The Code of Sikh Conduct and Convention

    Article XVIII


    a. A Sikh man and woman should enter wedlock without giving thought to the prospective spouse's caste and descent.
    b. A Sikh's daughter must be married to a Sikh.
    c. A Sikh's marriage should be solemnized by anand marriage rites.
    d. Child marriage is taboo for Sikhs.
    e. When a girl becomes marriageable, physically, emotionally and by virtue of maturity of character, a suitable Sikh match should be found and she be married to him by Anand marriage rites.
    f. Marriage may not be preceded by engagement ceremony. But if an engagement ceremony is sought to he held, a congregational gathering should be held and, after offering the Ardas before the Guru Granth Sahib, a kirpan, a steel bangle and some sweets may be tendered to the boy.
    g. Consulting horoscopes for determining which day or date is auspicious or otherwise for fixing the day of the marriage is a sacrilege. Any day that the parties find suitable by mutual consultation should be fixed.
    h. Putting on floral or gilded face ornamentation, decorative headgear or red thread band round the wrist, worshipping of ancestors, dipping feet in milk mixed with water, cutting a berry or jandi (Prosopis spieigera) bushes, filling pitcher, ceremony of retirement in feigned displeasure, reciting couplets, performing havans (Sacrificial fire), installing vedi (a wooden canopy or pavilion under which Hindu marriages are performed), prostitutes' dances, drinking liquor, are all sacrileges.
    i. The marriage party should have as small a number of people as the girl's people desire. The two sides should greet each other singing sacred hymns and finally by the Sikh greetings of Waheguru ji ka Khalsa, Waheguru ji ki Fateh.
    j. For marriage, there should be a congregational gathering in the holy presence of Guru Granth Sahib. There should be hymn-singing by ragis or by the whole congregation. Then the girl and the boy should he made to sit facing the Guru Granth Sahib. The girl should sit on the left side of the boy. After soliciting the congregation's permission, the master of the marriage ceremony (who may be a man or a woman) should bid the boy and girl and their parents or guardians to stand and should offer the Ardas for the commencement of the Anand marriage ceremony.
    The officiant should then apprise the boy and the girl of the duties and obligations of conjugal life according to the Guru's tenets.
    He should initially give to the two an exposition of their common mutual obligations. He should tell them how to model the husband-wife relationship on the love between the individual soul and the Supreme Soul in the light of the contents of circumambulation (Lavan) hymns in the Suhi measure (rag) section (The bulk of the Guru Granth (the Sikh holy book ) is divided on the basis of the ragas (measures) of the Indian classical music. Suhi is one of the ragas featuring in the Guru Granth Sahib) of the Guru Granth Sahib.
    He should explain to them the notion of the state of "a single soul in two bodies" to be achieved through love and make them see how they may attain union with the Immortal Being discharging duties and obligations of the householders' life. Both of them, they should be told, have to make their conjugal union a means to the fulfillment of the purpose of the journey of human existence; both have to lead clean and Guru-oriented lives through the instrumentality of their union.
    He should then explain to the boy and girl individually their respective conjugal duties as husband and wife.
    The bridegroom should be told that the girl's people having chosen him as the fittest match from among a whole lot, he should regard his wife as his better half, accord to unflinching love and share with her all that he has. In all situations, he should protect her person and honour, he should be completely loyal to her and he should show much respect and consideration for her parents and relations as for his own.
    The girl should be told that she has been joined in matrimony to her man in the hallowed presence of the Guru Granth Sahib and the congregation. She should ever harbour for him deferential solicitude, regard him the lord master of her love and trust; she should remain firm in her loyalty to him and serve him in joy and sorrow and in every clime (native or foreign) and should show the same regard and consideration to his parents and relatives as she would, to her own parents and relatives.
    The boy and girl should bow before the Guru Granth Sahib to betoken their acceptance of these instructions. Thereafter, the girl's father or the principal relation should make the girl grasp one end of the sash which the boy is wearing over his shoulders and the person in attendance of the Guru Granth Sahib should recite the matrimonial circumambulation stanzas {Lavan of the fourth Guru in the Suhi musical measure section of the Guru Granth Sahib } (Pp. 773-4). After the conclusion of the recitation of each of the stanzas, the boy, followed by the girl holding the end of the sash, should go round the Guru Granth Sahib while the ragis or the congregation sing out the recited stanza.
    The boy and girl, after every circumambulation, should bow before the Guru Granth Sahib in genuflexion, lowering their forehead to touch the ground and then stand up to listen to the recitation of the next stanza.There being four matrimonial circumambulation stanzas in the concerned hymn, the proceeding will comprise four circumambulations with the incidental singing of the stanza.After the fourth circumabulation, the boy and girl should, after bowing before the Guru Granth Sahib, sit down at the appointed place and the Ragis or the person who has conducted the ceremony should recite the first five and the last stanza of the Anand Sahib. Thereafter, the Ardas should he offered to mark the conclusion of the Anand marriage ceremony and the sacred pudding, distributed'.
    k. Persons professing faiths other than the Sikh faith cannot be joined in wedlock by the Anand Karaj ceremony.
    l. No Sikh should accept a match for his/her son or daughter for monetary consideration.
    m. If the girl's parents at any time or on any occasion visit their daughter's home and a meal is ready there, they should not hesitate to eat there. Abstaining from eating at the girl's home is a superstition. The Khalsa has been blessed with the boon of victuals and making others eat by the Guru and the Immortal Being. The girl's and boy's people should keep accepting each other's hospitality, because the Guru has joined them in relationship of equality (Prem Sumarag).
    n. If a woman's husband has died, she may, if she so wishes, finding a match suitable for her, remarry. For a Sikh man whose wife has died, similar ordinance obtains.
    o. The remarriage may be solemnized in the same manner as the Anand marriage.
    p. Generally, no Sikh should marry a second wife if the first wife is alive.
    q. A baptised ought to get his wife also baptised.

    source: http://www.sgpc.net/rehat_maryada/section_four_chap_eleven.html
     
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  8. Harry Haller

    Harry Haller United Kingdom
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    sigh, sarcasm is wasted on the young, no, Bhenji, I do not, allow me to answer your post less tongue in cheek

    Being a Sikh is to see all as equal, there is no caste system in Sikhism, but some still follow it, as they do superstitions and rituals. Although I am all for complete rebellion, your father is still your father, if you can integrate what your heart feels with some element of respect for his wishes, I am sure that would make him happy. But strictly speaking, the mere mention of caste , I find annoying. My wife is Welsh, which in caste terms is probably second to last, with the last being Muslim.

    Good for you! I hope you never understand why caste is a problem, when you get your own children married, hang on to that thought, its worth its weight in gold, it is how our Gurus thought, and in my opinion, is the absolute correct attitude.

    Yes, it is to ensure the family name is not shamed by marrying below yourself.

    It does not matter a hoot in the real world, but I imagine it matters hugely to your dad.

    No, he is hugely wrong, but in the big scheme of things, seeing as we live in a world where Sikhs are famous for being hard drinkers, he is sort of right. As a Sikh, he is wrong, as a Punjabi, he is as right as his culture dictates.

    It is mostly izzat, standing in the community, as well as a means of control, some people think if the young are allowed to do what they want, the world will end, the irony is, your father probably thought as you do when he was younger, but its a bit like the borg, the young get assimilated, and thurn into their parents, so there is no progress, things stay as they always have. It takes brave young people to stand up and scream out that the emperor has no clothes.

    I suppose they must, otherwise there would not be so many Gurdwaras in the same town for all the different castes to monopolise the commitees.

    I could not care less if he was from the planet Bong, as long as he was a nice, gentle, kind understanding man, but your father may have something to say about it. Although, maybe he won't, only you know your fathers mind, maybe he will find it horrific, maybe he will not care less.

    plenty, much of which is covered by the post from Soul Jyotji
     
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  9. missnice91

    missnice91
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    Thank you for the advice guys :)
     
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  10. Luckysingh

    Luckysingh Canada
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    [​IMG]
    LOL!!


    She actually thought you were serious !
    I love the attitude of our younger lot. Maybe, in this lifetime we may see all this jatt/ramgharia takhaan,lohar,chumar, kumar...etc.. ALL disappear !
     
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  11. Luckysingh

    Luckysingh Canada
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    I can understand this since he wants a son in law that can dance to ''put jaatan de''

    He wants someone who can be ''Chakk''ing the phattey all the time !
    What better candidate could there be other than a sohnnah sannakha Ranja jatt !!

    A ramgharia can't fulfill this role can he ??
    :mundabhangra::mundabhangra::mundabhangra:
     
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  12. satt

    satt
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    Caste has no place if you and he are both amritdhari, having taken khande de pahul and keeping rehat then caste is finished, because by taking amrit you leave your kul, previous religion ( if different) behind. but you should also note to disrespect your parents is also a sin as are relationships out of wedlock. people seem to chose the aspects that suit them in a particular situation for example according to sikhi there are no castes so its ok to marry who you like, but seem to forget the Tenth master gave amrit & rehat for people to be re-born again into the khalsa panth in order to finish there caste etc.

    rehat bina neh sikh kahaveh , rehat bina dar chota kaveh

    WJKK WJKK
     
  13. Harry Haller

    Harry Haller United Kingdom
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    sin? there is no sin in Sikhism, kindly tell me where in the SGGS it states this about relationships out of wedlock

    oh, and welcome to the forum:winkingkaur:
     
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  14. satt

    satt
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    bharee-ai mat paapaa kai sang.

    But when the intellect is stained and polluted by sin,

    japji Sahib ji,

    Also bibekta should tell a gursikh what is right or wrong and our forefather did not go around having relationships out of wedlock , we all know what is right and wrong or am i the only one, anand Karaj is the joining of two to become one in front of Guru Granth sahib ji not down the local night club!!

    Thanks for your welcome i'm so glad i came :angryyoungsingh:

    WJKK WJKF
     
  15. Tejwant Singh

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    Satt ji,

    Guru Fateh.

    I beg to differ with you. Caste was eradicated by our first Guru, Guru Nanak; not in 1699 as you claim. The concept of Langar and Pangat were the first pragmatic steps that Guru Nanak took for this to break bread with anyone and everyone of any hue, creed or faith sitting together on the floor as a demonstration that we are all ONE. Hence, Sikhi is based on casteless gender equality and it evolved from there .

    There is nothing in Sikhi as Re-born or Born again as in the Abrahamic religion. A Sikh is reborn with every breath he/she takes, with every new realisation of the self with the help of Gurbani. There is no re birth after Khandei di pahul as you claim.

    Let's not make Sikhi a dogmatic religion as many like you try to do. Sikhi is not a religion but a pragmatic way of living. 1429 pages of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, our only Guru is the proof.


    Thanks & regards

    Tejwant Singh
     
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  16. Tejwant Singh

    Tejwant Singh United States
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    I agree with Harry ji. There is no sin in Sikhi. Sin belongs to the Abrahamic religions and the concept of sin leads one to Hell or Heaven according to them, the latter two do not exist in Sikhi.

    Paap is not a sin. It is translated wrongly. It simply means ill traits and demonstrates the imperfection in a human being. Nothing more.
     
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    #15 Tejwant Singh, Mar 9, 2013
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2013
  17. Harry Haller

    Harry Haller United Kingdom
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    Hmmm let us look at this statement, so according to your logic, I am sinning, as I have not been blessed with Anand Karaj. I see no purpose in Anand Karaj unless both parties are practicing Sikhs and fully understand and embrace the ideals and philosophies of Anand Karaj. Unfortunately this means that 99% of Anand Karaj ceremonies are pure lip service to the community and to Creator.

    I suppose you would rather I hire a big hall, insist on a lot of money from my partners family, plough through an Anand karaj with little or no understanding of what I am actually doing, and then embrace some good old fashioned drinking and dancing to celebrate this.

    I am curious, what is your attitude then to Homosexual relationships within Sikhism?
     
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  18. Kanwaljit Singh

    Kanwaljit Singh India
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    Isn't Paap = Par + Aap (Separated Self) :D
     
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  19. Luckysingh

    Luckysingh Canada
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    I'm afraid this is the problem with our young misguided youth !
    Other members and myself have pointed out about the huge numbers of young youth that jump onto the bandwagon of amrit chakkna via heavy influence from young jathabandis like ddt, akj..etc.
    Sadly these fresh recruits think that it is all about japping naam, simran, dasam granth, organising camps, having anti-Dhunda protests, being pro-veggie, anti-nihang jhatka...etc...
    and then best of all- Treating all other Non-Amritdharies as 'untouchables' !!!
    But insisting they believe in NO caste system or brahminizations such as 'untouchables' !!

    This is a huge problem in UK and catching on here in North America.
    Although over here they have a battle to get past the communist/comrade types.
     
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    #18 Luckysingh, Mar 9, 2013
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2013
  20. spnadmin

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    satt ji

    Please avoid name-calling. Avoid negativity. Discuss/question issues from your point of view instead of labeling another member according to your opinion.

    On any forum you can expect some members will disagree with you and say things that you do not like.

    I also do not want to have to repeat my warning, or come back to this thread many times during a 24 hour period, to watch over the problem.
    .
     
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    #19 spnadmin, Mar 10, 2013
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2013
  21. seeker3k

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    I am sorry that I disagree with man here. It is my thought only what I am about to write.

    Nanak did not start langar it was the Amardas who started it. One should do the research before saying that I am wrong. If one is thinking about when Nanak's father gave him 20 rupies to do business. That is total wrong and lie. There is no reference any where that this has happened.The currency as rupie was not in circulation at the time of Nanak.

    Yes Nanak talked against cast system. Talking is one thing doing take guts. No guru took action against cast system as Guru Gobind Singh did. His action was practical. But we disobey every thing Guru said. We are into ritualistic things.

    Every one knows what happen at the engagement of Guru Arjan Dev at his son Hargobind. Now days every one knows Jathedar Bibi Jageer Kaur. She had her daughter killed for marring the poor guy. She is still MLA of Punjab.
    Cast system is only in Hinduism and Sikhism. No other religion have this system.

    As for they system or reborn in Jews as claimed, When 5 pyare give AMRIT to person they say from now on you are born again now your father is Guru Gobind Singh. It is same thing as reborn. Keep the topic in Sikhism. Only he should criticize who have not broken any Sikh rules.

    I think I should change my name to trouble-maker
     

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