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Manmukh or Gurmukh: Can Mind Serve as Spiritual Authority?

Discussion in 'Sikh Youth' started by Archived_Member4, Mar 21, 2009.

  1. Archived_Member4

    Archived_Member4
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    They come to 2 or 3 different conclusions because some are allergic to the truth and Manmat is there dear friend.

    Once you decide to let go of the Manmat mentality then the answer becomes clear. Told to give the head but people just want to give a broken nail and consider it Sikhi.
     
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  3. BhagatSingh

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    Re: Sikh Girls Who Do Not Cut Their Head Hair, But Remove All Other Hair on Their Bod

    Well, if Guru Sahib are calling this manmukh behaviour then surely, Guru Sahibs themselves must be manmukh. The highest authority for them was their own intellect.

    Who was their Guru ji?

    Guru Saibs don't necessarily has to agree on the decision Akal takht makes. They are not here on this world anymore so they really have no say on what Akal Takht decides.

    Why?

    Whilte you think about that we must also look at the situation in which this hukam was given. Since its not in SGGS like you said. We must also look at how practical it is now? how practical is it to give Akal takht authority nowadays.
    Did Akal takht not ban books by kala Afghana and excommunicate him? Instead of refuting what he had to say, they banned his books.
    and who banned tables and chairs from langar?

    While you think about that let me remind you that this is irrelevant to the discussion about kes.

    A perfectly reasonable premise to support my conclusion. You have not even bothered to try and refute it.

    This fallacy is called straw person since a straw person is weak and easily knocked down. With a straw person argument, a very weak form of an opponent's argument is set up and then knocked down.
    I could also add the fallacy referred to as card stacking, which is essentially ommiting information that supports an unfavoured view.
    You said I have weak support or no support behing my arguments. But you intentionally ommitted the support from this discussion. You have not even considered it! You keep repeating what has been drilled into you over and over, without considering any thing else.
    It is in fact, your conclusion that lacks any support.

    Hmm... if that's the case then the father of the tenth master, the ninth master himself, made an excuse. this is of course following your logic. When auranzeb asked him to convert to islam. He made an excuse that he should have the right to follow his own wishes.


    .
    more fallacies to follow...sad
    This is called argument against the person or argumentum ad hominem.
     
  4. spnadmin

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    Re: Sikh Girls Who Do Not Cut Their Head Hair, But Remove All Other Hair on Their Bod

    Bhagat ji,

    I understand what you mean by this statement. It is a rhetorical statement not to be understood at the literal level.

    Well, if Guru Sahib are calling this manmukh behaviour then surely, Guru Sahibs themselves must be manmukh. The highest authority for them was their own intellect.

    However some individuals may take the statement literally. Guru Nanak encouraged questions and did not have disdain for intellect. If you see fit would you elaborate on your meaning? Thank you: aad0002 :yes:
     
  5. BhagatSingh

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    Re: Sikh Girls Who Do Not Cut Their Head Hair, But Remove All Other Hair on Their Bod

    You are right. Manmukh is something different. If someone considers their brain authority, it does not mean they are manmukh.
    I think manmukh is that person who listens to either only his Id or Superego, and acts according to them. But someone who listens to their Ego is not manmukh. Id, Ego and Superego were defined by Freud like so:
    Id = I want it and I want it now. Its all about 'I'. What do I want?
    Superego = is all about morality and society. It about 'Them'. What will 'they' say if I do this?
    Ego reasons and is balance between the two.
    The one who listens to 'ego' is Gurmukh.
    Again, Ego is not your everyday ego. I use it the way it was defined by Freud.
     
  6. Archived_Member4

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    Re: Sikh Girls Who Do Not Cut Their Head Hair, But Remove All Other Hair on Their Bod

    As far as this comment goes im tell you to explain more indepth what you mean by their own intellect.


    Bani is the Guru and Guru is the Bani and Bani is the True Guru and the True Guru is the Lord. All one and the same.

    Bani is the Guru and Guru is the Bani and Bani is the True Guru and the True Guru is the Lord. All one and the same.

    To solve political issues

    Why isn't practical? I'm looking for reasons here.

    In Guru Sahib time the Akal Takht got in the hands of invaders and still Guru Sahib said it was practical.

    And whats your point by this? Once again looking for why you present this and give reason if your against or for this, if you wish.



    It is to prove a point and it does become relevant.


    The Tenth Nanak never put any limits on the Hukam. There is no need to refute anyting. Its simple as no limits on the Hukam.

    If you consider the Tenth Nanak Hukam not support then its fair to say you do not consider Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji as support.

    This relates to the first comment so until you explain what you mean by their own intellect I will not comment on this.


    .
    Yes Bhagat Singh I'm attacking you because I like to attack you:rolleyes:
     
  7. spnadmin

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    Re: Sikh Girls Who Do Not Cut Their Head Hair, But Remove All Other Hair on Their Bod

    Well, Bhagat ji

    I appreciate that you are defining ego as it was defined by Freud. But that doesn't help with clarification because Freud was born around 450 years after Guru Nanak passed from his physical body.

    So let me pose the question again. Man + Mukh. Man means your mind or the obsessions and desires of the mind. Mukh means "face". Together they mean or convey the message of a person who follows in any direction his/her mind goes, leads, wanders, or who follows his desires and mental dictates. Someone who is Manmukh is a person who is controlled by attraction to Maya and the needs of the self are unlimited. We can add or subtract words here and there, but I think I have the essence of manmukh.

    So you are saying that the Gurus were manmukh. Please answer according to the definition I have given above. Because in coming up with unique and highly individual definitions of your own invention, confusion in the dialog rules supreme.

    Did you mean that the gurus followed their desires and mental dictates, as per their attraction to Maya? It will help me a lot if you answer straight. :idea:
     
  8. vsgrewal48895

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    Re: Sikh Girls Who Do Not Cut Their Head Hair, But Remove All Other Hair on Their Bod

    Dear aad ji, since the wording of self willed vs Guru willed have come up-due to some technical difficulties which I am unable to understand, I will be posting the post under a new thread.
    Virinder
     
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  9. spnadmin

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    Re: Sikh Girls Who Do Not Cut Their Head Hair, But Remove All Other Hair on Their Bod

    vsgrewal ji

    That sounds like a great idea. We need to be clear-headed about this. :cool::thumbup:
     
  10. vsgrewal48895

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    Re: Sikh Girls Who Do Not Cut Their Head Hair, But Remove All Other Hair on Their Bod

    I have posted it under Sikh Symbols but each of these will be coming shortly.
    Virinder
     
  11. spnadmin

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    Re: Sikh Girls Who Do Not Cut Their Head Hair, But Remove All Other Hair on Their Bod

    New and respected forum member vsgrewal48895 ji has generously contributed a new thread as he promised above on the difference between manmukh an gurumukh per Gurbani.

    I am copying a little bit of the thread here in the dialog -- so that this is accessible to us.

    Manmukh - self willed, they lose their way. Gurumukh knows ways of truth and untruth and crosses over.
    ------------------------------------------
    Guru Nanak in Raag Ramkali of AGGS, Page, 941 had a dialogue with Sidhas about Manmukh & Gurmukh:

    ਮਨਮੁਖਿ ਭੂਲੈ ਜਮ ਕੀ ਕਾਣਿ ॥ ਪਰ ਘਰੁ ਜੋਹੈ ਹਾਣੇ ਹਾਣਿ ॥ ਮਨਮੁਖਿ ਭਰਮਿ ਭਵੈ ਬੇਬਾਣਿ ॥ ਵੇਮਾਰਗਿ ਮੂਸੈ ਮੰਤ੍ਰਿ ਮਸਾਣਿ ॥ ਸਬਦੁ ਨ ਚੀਨੈ ਲਵੈ ਕੁਬਾਣਿ ॥ ਨਾਨਕ ਸਾਚਿ ਰਤੇ ਸੁਖੁ ਜਾਣਿ ॥੨੬॥

    Manmukẖ bẖūlai jam kī kāṇ. Par gẖar johai hāṇė hāṇ. Manmukẖ bẖaram bẖavai bėbāṇ. vėmārag mūsai manṯar masāṇ. Sabaḏ na cẖīnai lavai kubāṇ. Nānak sācẖ raṯė sukẖ jāṇ. ||26||

    The self-willed are deluded, under the shadow of death. They look into the homes of others, and lose. The self willed are confused by doubt, wandering in the wilderness. Having lost their way, they are plundered; they chant their mantras at cremation grounds. They do not think of the Sabd; instead, they utter obscenities. O, Nanak, those who are attuned to the Truth know peace. ||26||


    ------------------------------------
    ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਸਾਚੇ ਕਾ ਭਉ ਪਾਵੈ ॥ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਬਾਣੀ ਅਘੜੁ ਘੜਾਵੈ ॥ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਨਿਰਮਲ ਹਰਿ ਗੁਣ ਗਾਵੈ ॥ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਪਵਿਤ੍ਰੁ ਪਰਮ ਪਦੁ ਪਾਵੈ ॥ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਰੋਮਿ ਰੋਮਿ ਹਰਿ ਧਿਆਵੈ ॥ ਨਾਨਕ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਸਾਚਿ ਸਮਾਵੈ ॥੨੭॥ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਪਰਚੈ ਬੇਦ ਬੀਚਾਰੀ ॥ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਪਰਚੈ ਤਰੀਐ ਤਾਰੀ ॥ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਪਰਚੈ ਸੁ ਸਬਦਿ ਗਿਆਨੀ ॥ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਪਰਚੈ ਅੰਤਰ ਬਿਧਿ ਜਾਨੀ ॥ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਪਾਈਐ ਅਲਖ ਅਪਾਰੁ ॥ ਨਾਨਕ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਮੁਕਤਿ ਦੁਆਰੁ ॥੨੮॥ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਅਕਥੁ ਕਥੈ ਬੀਚਾਰਿ ॥ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਜਪੀਐ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਪਿਆਰਿ ॥ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਜਪੀਐ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਪਿਆਰਿ ॥ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਪਾਈਐ ਸਬਦਿ ਅਚਾਰਿ ॥ ਸਬਦਿ ਭੇਦਿ ਜਾਣੈ ਜਾਣਾਈ ॥ ਨਾਨਕ ਹਉਮੈ ਜਾਲਿ ਸਮਾਈ ॥੨੯॥ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਧਰਤੀ ਸਾਚੈ ਸਾਜੀ ॥ ਤਿਸ ਮਹਿ ਓਪਤਿ ਖਪਤਿ ਸੁ ਬਾਜੀ ॥ ਗੁਰ ਕੈ ਸਬਦਿ ਰਪੈ ਰੰਗੁ ਲਾਇ ॥ ਸਾਚਿ ਰਤਉ ਪਤਿ ਸਿਉ ਘਰਿ ਜਾਇ ॥ ਸਾਚ ਸਬਦ ਬਿਨੁ ਪਤਿ ਨਹੀ ਪਾਵੈ ॥ ਨਾਨਕ ਬਿਨੁ ਨਾਵੈ ਕਿਉ ਸਾਚਿ ਸਮਾਵੈ ॥੩੦॥ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਅਸਟ ਸਿਧੀ ਸਭਿ ਬੁਧੀ ॥ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਭਵਜਲੁ ਤਰੀਐ ਸਚ ਸੁਧੀ ॥ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਸਰ ਅਪਸਰ ਬਿਧਿ ਜਾਣੈ ॥ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਪਰਵਿਰਤਿ ਨਰਵਿਰਤਿ ਪਛਾਣੈ ॥ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਤਾਰੇ ਪਾਰਿ ਉਤਾਰੇ ॥ ਨਾਨਕ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਸਬਦਿ ਨਿਸਤਾਰੇ ॥੩੧॥

    Gurmukẖ sācẖė kā bẖa*o pāvai. Gurmukẖ baṇī agẖaṛ gẖaṛāvai. Gurmukẖ nirmal har guṇ gāvai. Gurmukẖ paviṯar param paḏ pāvai. Gurmukẖ rom rom har ḏẖi*āvai. Nānak gurmukẖ sācẖ samāvai. ||27|| Gurmukẖ parcẖai bėḏ bīcẖārī. Gurmukẖ parcẖai ṯarī*ai ṯārī. Gurmukẖ parcẖai so sabaḏ gi*ānī. Gurmukẖ parcẖai anṯar biḏẖ jānī. Gurmukẖ pā*ī*ai alakẖ apār. Nānak gurmukẖ mukaṯ ḏu*ār. ||28|| Gurmukẖ akath kathai bīcẖār. Gurmukẖ nibhai saparvār. Gurmukẖ japī*ai anṯar pi*ār. Gurmukẖ pā*ī*ai sabaḏ acẖār. Sabaḏ bẖėḏ jāṇai jāṇā*ī. Nānak ha*umai jāl samā*ī. ||29|| Gurmukẖ ḏẖarṯī sācẖai sājī. Ŧis meh opaṯ kẖapaṯ so bājī. Gur kai sabaḏ rapai rang lā*ė. Sācẖ raṯa*o paṯ si*o gẖar jā*ė. Sācẖ sabaḏ bin paṯ nahī pāvai. Nānak bin nāvai ki*o sācẖ samāvai. ||30|| Gurmukẖ asat siḏẖī sabẖ buḏẖī. Gurmukẖ bẖavjal ṯarī*ai sacẖ suḏẖī. Gurmukẖ sar apsar biḏẖ jāṇai. Gurmukẖ parviraṯ narviraṯ pacẖẖāṇai. Gurmukẖ ṯārė pār uṯārė. Nānak gurmukẖ sabaḏ nisṯārė. ||31||

    The Guru willed lives in the Fear of God, the True Akal Purkh. Through the Word of the Guru's Bani, and refines the unrefined. The Gurmukh sings the immaculate, Glorious Praises of the Akal Purkh. The Gurmukh attains the supreme, sanctified status. The Gurmukh meditates on the Akal Purkh with every hair of his body. O, Nanak, the Gurmukh merges in Truth. ||27|| The Gurmukh is pleasing to the True Guru; this is contemplation on the Vedas. Pleasing the True Guru, the Gurmukh is carried across. Pleasing the True Guru, the Gurmukh receives the spiritual wisdom of the Sabd. Pleasing the True Guru, the Gurmukh comes to know the path within. The Gurmukh attains the unseen and infinite God. O, Nanak, the Gurmukh finds the door of liberation. ||28|| The Gurmukh speaks the unspoken wisdom. In the midst of his family, the Gurmukh lives a spiritual life. The Gurmukh lovingly meditates deep within. The Gurmukh obtains the Sabd, and righteous conduct. He knows the mystery of the Sabd, and inspires others to know it. O, Nanak, burning away his ego, he merges in the Akal Purkh. ||29|| The True Creator fashioned the earth for the sake of the Gurmukhs. There, he set in motion the play of creation and destruction. One who is filled with the Word of the Guru's Sabd enshrines love for the Akal Purkh. Attuned to the Truth, he goes to his home with honor. Without the True Word of the Sabd, no one receives honor. O, Nanak, without the Name, how can one be absorbed in Truth? ||30|| The Gurmukh obtains the eight miraculous spiritual powers, and all wisdom. The Gurmukh crosses over the terrifying world-ocean, and obtains true understanding. The Gurmukh knows the ways of truth and untruth. The Gurmukh knows worldliness and renunciation. The Gurmukh crosses over, and carries others across as well. O, Nanak, the Gurmukh is emancipated through the Sabd. ||31||

    The complete essay by respected vsgrewal is at this link http://www.sikhism.us/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/24314-gurmukh-and-manmukh.html

     
  12. BhagatSingh

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    Re: Sikh Girls Who Do Not Cut Their Head Hair, But Remove All Other Hair on Their Bod

    Antonia ji,
    You essentially said the same thing I did, except I used Freudian concepts to illustrate what I was saying, just because I thought he explained it best.

    Earlier, I said that if following your own intellect is being Manmukh then the Gurus were Manmukh for doing that.
    I fail to see the need to define manmukh in that statement because its based on the definition that the other person provided. But I did anyways, because you asked. You have misunderstood me now because I provided you with one that did not match the definition of that person. So let me clear this up, our definitions do not state that gurus were manmukhs. Our definitions show the opposite of that.

    You said 'man' obsesses and desires. 'man' is attracted to maya. I would equate that to the Freudian id.
    But I don't think that it ends there. The superego is part of 'man'. The superego is slave to society. What will they think if I do this?

    Ego is free of this. Ego reasons. It has the capability of thinking clearly with letting desires and society clog its gears. Ego should be in charge. and it is this Ego that is precisely what I mean by intellect (along with knowledge of course).
    Again, Ego as defined by Freud not our general, everyday ego. You know that thing in cartoons where that devil and angel will pop up on a person's shoulder and the person is shown listening to both.
    Well, that comes from Freudian concept of Id, Ego and Superego. Id = devil, Superego = angel and Ego = the person.
     
  13. BhagatSingh

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    All you had to do was to google it.
    Definitions of intellect on the Web:
    • mind: knowledge and intellectual ability; "he reads to improve his mind"; "he has a keen intellect"
    • reason: the capacity for rational thought or inference or discrimination; "we are told that man is endowed with reason and capable of distinguishing good from evil"
    • intellectual: a person who uses the mind creatively
      wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn
    You ignored the question.

    Irrelevant. I think you ignored my statement.

    What kind of political issues?

    I gave you possible reasons but all you said was:
    The second bit does not follow the first bit. Was the capturing practical?
    You ignored the reasons...


    A possible reason why it could be impractical. Duh! Read my post altogether before you start disssecting it.

    Well, then you have yet to show how it does.

    He does not need to. He never made his hukam eternal like his teachings.
    i agree with vsgrewal ji here, when he says:
    Dear Sis,

    It is a very sensitive subject and it does create an up roar with the Khalsa Sikhs. But to answer your question there is no where written in AGGS about removal of hairs affects your spirituality. I can participate in a civil academic debate on the subject. Guru Gobind Singh added the Bani of his father in to AGGS and have enough time to add another page 1431 on hairs etc if he wanted to make these mandatory.
    Source:: Sikhism Philosophy Network http://www.sikhism.us/showthread.php?t=14899

    Cordially,

    Virinder S. Grewal
    Williamston, MI


    Why is that?

    I don't think it does. but ok, I gave you the definition of intellect.


    Is that what a Sikh does, attacks others because he likes to attack others?
     
  14. spnadmin

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    Re: Sikh Girls Who Do Not Cut Their Head Hair, But Remove All Other Hair on Their Bod

    Bhagat ji

    We may be in disagreement more than you realize. Guru Nanak was the first psychotherapist in my humble opnion. He understood id and super-ego in the terms of his day -- but he also understood the ego much like Freud did. Necessary for conscious awareness and discernment. But also the seat of fabulous story-telling illusion and delusion through compensatory mechanisms of the ego that distort reality in orde to serve the myths a person weaves about himself. The big myth is the myth of personal identity which is created by mun. Again in and of itself it is not wrong and probably unavoidable. But the trouble that arrsies is wehn the subjective truths created by mun or ego are mistaken for a more universal and invariant truth. If you are a spiritual person, the universal and invariant truth has something to do with the Divine Order which pervades and transcends all simple egos.

    Ego can get smaller and ego can get larger according to its own directives. This is still manmukh performance. The Gurus acknowledged that the mind was a beautiful creation. They also acknowledged that the mind is wrapped in illusion. I think you need to reconsider the idea that the gurus were manmukh in Freud's theory or according to Guru Nanak's transformed view of the connection between humans and divine creation.
     
  15. BhagatSingh

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    Re: Sikh Girls Who Do Not Cut Their Head Hair, But Remove All Other Hair on Their Bod

    I dont see where we disagree on this topic.

    Did you see that I defined Ego differently?
    I don't think so.

    I am lost now, I never said this "I think you need to reconsider the idea that the gurus were manmukh in Freud's theory or according to Guru Nanak's transformed view of the connection between humans and divine creation. "
    i said "So let me clear this up, our definitions [of manmukh] do not state that gurus were manmukhs. Our definitions show the opposite of that."
     
  16. spnadmin

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    Re: Sikh Girls Who Do Not Cut Their Head Hair, But Remove All Other Hair on Their Bod

    Maybe not, Bhagat ji,

    But at this point I don't understand your argument either. My guess was that you did not really mean that the Gurus were manmukh and asked you to clarify.

    Our goal is to purify the mind, let the ego die, and open ourselves up to the divine essence that will take away the illusions.


    If mun is both beautiful and it is also wrapped in illusion, then to be manmukh is to have the potential for vidya but also the capacity for avidhya.

    Are you actually saying that the Gurus were caught in duality between vidhya and advidhya? Sometimes under the directive of ego, and other times not?:confused: It is impossible to be under the directive of the ego and at the same time be Gurumukh.
     
  17. BhagatSingh

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    Re: Sikh Girls Who Do Not Cut Their Head Hair, But Remove All Other Hair on Their Bod

    Ah I see which part confuses you. The Freudian Ego is a good thing whereas, the word Ego as we understand through Guru Sahibs is bad. That's because Freud defines Ego differently. Ego is what he basically called reasoning or part of the brain that can reason.
    The Ego defined by Guru sahibs is different from Freudian Ego, its actually the Freudian Id. Reasoning is required to reduce the effect of this ego.

    Do you see the difference in the definitions? If yes, it would be a good idea to go over my posts again.
     
  18. vsgrewal48895

    vsgrewal48895
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    Re: Sikh Girls Who Do Not Cut Their Head Hair, But Remove All Other Hair on Their Bod

    Guru have called theselves as MOORAKH some times but not Manmukh.

    I will be posting one on Moorakh also.

    Virinder.

    PS.It is midnite and good nite for now.
     
  19. Archived_Member4

    Archived_Member4
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    Re: Sikh Girls Who Do Not Cut Their Head Hair, But Remove All Other Hair on Their Bod


    Right after that I respond with:

    Bhagat Singh, Guru Sahib calls this Manmukh behavoir. The highest authority is Guru ji and for political decisions Guru Sahib gave the authority to Akal Takht with Guru Sahibs agreeing on the decisions.






    And now we can see how Bhagat Singh clearly calls Guru Sahib a Manmukh

    You say that the mind should be the highest authority for any person. You use your mind to deal with spirituality because it is the HIGHEST authority for you and others should do the same, according to you. Since by the True Gurus Bani that the mind is NOT the HIGHEST authority and it’s the Shabad Guru then you have infact called Guru Sahib a Manmukh. Because Guru Sahib did not use their mind as being the HIGHEST authority, but used the Shabad Guru as the highest authority. The intellect, mind are authority, but still the HIGHER authority is the Shabad Guru.
     
  20. BhagatSingh

    BhagatSingh Canada
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    Re: Sikh Girls Who Do Not Cut Their Head Hair, But Remove All Other Hair on Their Bod

    Whose mind created the shabad Guru whom you call the highest authority?
    Guru's mind. The Gurus used their intellect to create SGGS.

    BTW I presented my definition of Manmukh and cleared up that Gurus were not Manmukh.
     
  21. Archived_Member4

    Archived_Member4
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    Re: Sikh Girls Who Do Not Cut Their Head Hair, But Remove All Other Hair on Their Bod

    Nothing can create the Shabad Guru because the Shabad Guru was here at the beginning, throughout the four ages, here now and will always be here forever and ever. You can't create the Creator. By your logic that would mean there is something higher than the Shabad Guru/God, which is for you the Mind, intellect


    The intellect or mind did not create the Shabad Guru. Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji is the Shabad Guru.

    You used this as your base. What I wrote.
    Bhagat Singh, Guru Sahib calls this Manmukh behavoir. The highest authority is Guru ji and for political decisions Guru Sahib gave the authority to Akal Takht with Guru Sahibs agreeing on the decisions.

    I am not going to continue with you on this until a mod comes in, so say as you wish.
     

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