Man Har Rang Rāṯā Gāvaigo / ਮਨੁ ਹਰਿ ਰੰਗਿ ਰਾਤਾ ਗਾਵੈਗੋ

Discussion in 'Gurmat Vichaar' started by Ambarsaria, Dec 10, 2011.


  1. Ambarsaria

    Ambarsaria ੴ / Ik▫oaʼnkār
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    Kaanra Guru Ramdas ji

    With the creator’s love mind sings so imbued
    All fears and exasperations are purified in consonance with creator’s wisdom

    Colored with creator’s hue the disassociates and gets to the abode
    Such’s dust from the feet one gets if so obliged by such
    People caught in me and you greed with mind so blank do not get the coloring
    With creator’s directive such is reborn upside down and meeting followers of creator such is colored
    All five senses and five body functions again and again wander and so the mind entangled in three dispositions does not for a moment find stability
    True creator pleases, control established and salvation is achieved by such
    One creator present everywhere and such one is imbued in all
    One such appearing as many directs all in own single directive
    One near to the creator recognizing one and only, such near the creator will understand
    One near to the creator meets in true abode and reverberates in true words symphony
    All life forms and universe is created and the one near to the creator will receive honors
    Without realizing the creator the place is not found at such one’s feet and birth death miseries persist
    Many a lives one is lost from the loved one and the blessing of the creator’s teacher facilitates a union
    Meeting the true creator much comfort comes, impure mind is rejuvenated
    Please the sustainer of the living in the world, let me keep attached to your understanding
    Guru Nanak, the Guru is such self, the eternal creator, I will find company through so eternal creator to such

    Sat Sri Akal.
     
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  2. prakash.s.bagga

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    AMBARSARIA Ji,
    I feel that the message of the above composition of Gurbani is in
    reference to Future Tense.

    Prakash.S.Bagga
     
  3. Ambarsaria

    Ambarsaria ੴ / Ik▫oaʼnkār
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    Veer Prakash.S.Bagga ji thanks for your comment.

    I get sense from Gurbani that Guru ji's make no assumption about the completeness or deficiencies of a reader.

    So when one for example reads the following tuk from the sabad,

    There are two ways of reading the above English sentence,

    1. For Example Prakash.S.Bagga ji: I have realized the creator, so it does not apply to me so what Guru ji states I should be able to verify. And once one does, move on to the next stage.

    2. For Example Ambarsaria: I have not gotten understanding of the place so I need to work and then verify again and check. Once so I can move on to the next stage.

    The translation without using "Future Tense" actually does not perclude the future but suggests a check and the outcome that should be expected (future) on achievement of what Guru ji states.

    Your comment is valid I don't disagree about the essence. I am just describing how I have used my English style to encompass the same versus using "will, shall" in general everywhere.

    Sat Sri Akal.

    PS: Prakash.S.Bagga ji I did the translation of this sabad rather quickly when we were deeply in discussion in the other thread and the following,

     
    #3 Ambarsaria, Dec 11, 2011
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2011
  4. Tejwant Singh

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    Prakash Singh ji,

    Guru Fateh.

    Would you be kind enough to elaborate what you said above? Gurbani is to be lived with every breath we take, so if we can not use the goodness of Gurbani in the present then how can we and what are the reasons to save this for the future?

    You claim:"above composition of Gurbani is in reference to Future Tense".

    What made you come to that conclusion when you say it is in the future tense? Is it in the meaning of some Prophecy?

    Can you also use the verses from the Shabad in your own words to express your thinking?

    Thanks & regards

    Tejwant Singh
     
    #4 Tejwant Singh, Dec 11, 2011
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2011
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  5. prakash.s.bagga

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    I am sorry I am unable to satisfy you.My comment is valid as per Mr AMBARSARIA ji.
    With regards
    Prakash.s.Bagga
     
  6. Tejwant Singh

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    Prakash Singh ji,

    Guru Fateh.

    Pardon my ignorance, but what do you mean by,"I am sorry I am unable to satisfy you.My comment is valid as per Mr AMBARSARIA ji".

    First and foremost, I am not asking for any satisfaction but rather open to learn from your Gurmat wisdom, which I admire, and it is a duty of every Sikh to share this treasure with others rather than sitting on it.

    It is an open forum and if you claim something, again it is your duty as a Sikh to clarify what you said when requested.

    I respect your deep knowledge in Gurbani. So you mean as a Sikh, it is not your duty to share Gurparsad with others that you have been bestowed with from Gurbani?

    I will wait for your clarifications about your claim.

    Thanks & regards

    Tejwant Singh
     
  7. prakash.s.bagga

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    I thank you for your comments.As a GuR Sikh I understand my Duty too.
    But I am afraid of your style .This is also my duty to see that I would not be offending any GuR Sikh from my side.
    With regards
    Prakash .S.Bagga
     
  8. Ambarsaria

    Ambarsaria ੴ / Ik▫oaʼnkār
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    Prakash.S.Bagga ji just so that I understood myself. I conjectured to myself that in the last word(s) in each tuk the following (Example of one tuk from the sabad) is reflective of future verb usage,


    ਮਿਲਾਵੈਗੋ, i.e. the ending with ਗੋ.
    Appreciate if you can correct me or confirm if my understanding is correct.


    Thank you.



    Sat Sri Akal.

    PS: I believe ਗੇ, ਗਾ at the end of similar verbs also is reflective of future tense. For example, ਖਾਵਾਂਗਾ ਖਾਵਾਂਗੇ ਜਾਵਾਂਗਾ ਜਾਵਾਂਗੇ.
     
    #8 Ambarsaria, Dec 12, 2011
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2011
  9. prakash.s.bagga

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    You are 100% right.
    Prakash.S.Bagga
     
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  10. Tejwant Singh

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    Prakash Singh ji,

    Guru Fateh.

    You are wrong in your assumption. A Gursikh never offends me. I learn from a Gursikh especially from a well studied Gursikh who prides himself in knowing Gurmat Grammar.

    So, as I am not offended by any Gursikh, please fulfill your duty as one by explaining your claim.

    Thanks & regards

    Tejwant Singh
     
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  11. Tejwant Singh

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    Ambarsaria ji,

    Guru Fateh.

    My 2 cent worth.

    This Shabad has nothing to do with the future, but a very good Shabad explaining cause and effect because Gurbani is always lived in the present and it continues. If you do something, it has this effect. That is why all words end with ਵੈਗੋ which is the effect unlike the future which you rightfully described "For example, ਖਾਵਾਂਗਾ ਖਾਵਾਂਗੇ ਜਾਵਾਂਗਾ ਜਾਵਾਂਗੇ."

    The interesting part of this Shabad is that its theme/main idea is described in the beginning in Rahao because the Shabad starts with it.

    ਮਨੁ ਹਰਿ ਰੰਗਿ ਰਾਤਾ ਗਾਵੈਗੋ ॥
    मनु हरि रंगि राता गावैगो ॥
    Man har rang rāṯā gāvaigo.
    O mind, be attuned to His Love, and sing.

    When we are dyed (Cause) in the true colour of Ik Ong Kaar then we become part of this ocean. Our colour- actions, behaviour become like the One's. The colour- glow shows how our love is bursting out from the within.( Effect).

    ਭੈ ਭੈ ਤ੍ਰਾਸ ਭਏ ਹੈ ਨਿਰਮਲ ਗੁਰਮਤਿ ਲਾਗਿ ਲਗਾਵੈਗੋ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
    भै भै त्रास भए है निरमल गुरमति लागि लगावैगो ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥
    Bẖai bẖai ṯarās bẖa▫e hai nirmal gurmaṯ lāg lagāvaigo. ||1|| rahā▫o.
    The Fear of God makes me fearless and immaculate; I am dyed in the color of the Guru's Teachings. ||1||Pause||

    Why is our love glowing? (Effect). Because the colour we are dyed into is of Gurmat (Cause), hence the fear of ignorance is dissipated.

    It is NOT the fear of God as the literal translation indicates because the Mool Mantar explains that Ik Ong Kaar is Nirbhau and Nirvair. One who has no fear nor any enmity against anyone, is incapable of instilling fear in us but to the contrary. The Source instills love instead.

    That is why we, as Sikhs are "God" loving not "God" fearing. This is a very unique thing in Sikhi's pragmatic way of life. Love, all the way.

    This Shabad has nothing to do with the future but everything to do with what happens when we learn to breed goodness within. The effect takes place in that very instant.

    Regards

    Tejwant Singh
     
    #11 Tejwant Singh, Dec 12, 2011
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2011
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  12. Ambarsaria

    Ambarsaria ੴ / Ik▫oaʼnkār
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    Tejwant Singh veer ji thank you for your post.

    I have no issue with your explanation.

    The cause and effect is a perfect way to describe the translation. The only ambiguity or perhaps lack of understanding may stem from the fact that "whether one verifies the effect and hence learn of cause" (PAST) or "one does cause cause and see the effect (FUTURE).

    For me it is not necessarily a strong future tense usage but in the understanding it can have application to past/present/future cause and past/present/future effect. In a way time is not of the essence.

    I suppose I kind of proved your point lol wahmunda :sippingcoffeemunda:

    How you liked the following line as that was the prime reason for me to attempt to translate this sabad,

    ਓਅੰਕਾਰਿ ਏਕੋ ਰਵਿ ਰਹਿਆ ਸਭੁ ਏਕਸ ਮਾਹਿ ਸਮਾਵੈਗੋ

    ੴ (Ik▫oaʼnkār) ---- ਓਅੰਕਾਰਿ ਏਕੋ

    It also has the pronunciation that was contested.

    Sat Sri Akal.
     
  13. Tejwant Singh

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    Ambarsaria ji,

    Guru Fateh.

    I saw that and I agree with you. I thought Prakash Singh was going to comment on IK.

    It shows the means-cause- justify the ends-effect, not the other way around. Cause is not in the past but can happen the very moment we want which in this case is this very moment-the present and so is the effect which happens next, instantly.

    Anyway coming back to the Rahao of the Shabad, Guru Sahib uses a great metaphor of colour-dyeing whose effect is instant. Not in some future. Of course anything that passes in the present becomes past and the next instant becomes the future but when we put a white cloth in a dye, we can see the change there and then instantly, not in some distant future.

    The whole Shabad is based on this condition of cause and effect. It is one more wonderful lesson for all of us to understand, practice Gurbani so we can appreciate the only life we know about.

    Thanks & regards

    Tejwant Singh
     
  14. Ambarsaria

    Ambarsaria ੴ / Ik▫oaʼnkār
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    Veer Tejwant Singh ji is there any error in my translation as I believe I used future in one sentence.

    Appreciate your comments and suggestions and I can correct and re-post so that any future readers don't get wrong interpretation.

    Sat Sri Akal.
     
  15. Ambarsaria

    Ambarsaria ੴ / Ik▫oaʼnkār
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    Prakash.S.Bagga ji and Tejwant Singh ji I just discovered that ਗੋ by itself is a very fascinating study.
    I am sharing below for discourse,
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    [SIZE=-1]Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Gurmukhi-Gurmukhi Dictionary[/SIZE] [SIZE=-0] (1) ਭਵਿੱਖ, ਬੌਧਿਕ ਕਿਰਿਆ। (2) ਹੈ। ਉਦਾਹਰਣ: ਕੁੰਭਾਰ ਕੇ ਘਰ ਹਾਂਡੀ ਆਛੈ ਰਾਜਾ ਕੇ ਘਰ ਸਾਂਡੀ ਗੋ॥ {ਟੋਡੀ ਨਾਮ, ੩, ੧:੧ (718)}। ਗਵਨੁ ਕਰੈਗੋ ਸਗਲੋ ਲੋਗਾ॥ {ਗਉ ੫, ਅਸ ੪, ੪:੪ (237)}। [/SIZE]

    [SIZE=-1]Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Gurmukhi-English Dictionary[/SIZE] [SIZE=-0] Sk. n. The earth, the world [/SIZE] [SIZE=-1]
    Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Gurmukhi-English Data provided by Harjinder Singh Gill, Santa Monica, CA, USA.[/SIZE]

    [SIZE=-1]Mahan Kosh Encyclopedia[/SIZE] [SIZE=-0] ਭਵਿਸ਼੍ਯਤ (ਆਉਣ ਵਾਲੇ ਸਮੇਂ) ਦਾ ਬੋਧਕ. ਗਾ. "ਨਾਮੁ ਜਪਤ ਸੁਖ ਪਾਵੈਗੋ". (ਕਾਨ ਅਃ ਮਃ ੪)। (2) ਹੈ. ਅਸ੍ਤਿ. "ਰਾਜਾ ਦੇ ਘਰ ਸਾਂਡੀਗੋ". (ਟੋਡੀ ਨਾਮਦੇਵ)। (3) ਸੰ. ਗਊ. ਗਾਂ। (4) ਕਿਰਣ. ਰਸ਼੍*ਮਿ. "ਗੋ ਮਰੀਚਿ ਕਿਰਣੱਛਟਾ". (ਸਨਾਮਾ)। (5) ਇੰਦ੍ਰਿਯ। (6) ਬਾਣੀ। (7) ਵੇਦ। (8) ਸਰਸ੍ਵਤੀ। (9) ਨੇਤ੍ਰ. ਦ੍ਰਿਸ੍ਟਿ। (10) ਪ੍ਰਿਥਿਵੀ। (11) ਬਿਜਲੀ। (12) ਦਿਸ਼ਾ. ਤਰਫ। (13) ਮਾਤਾ। (14) ਜੀਭ. ਰਸਨਾ। (15) ਘੋੜਾ। (16) ਸੂਰਜ। (17) ਚੰਦ੍ਰਮਾ। (18) ਤੀਰ। (19) ਗਵੈਯਾ. ਗਾਇਕ। (20) ਆਕਾਸ਼। (21) ਸ੍ਵਰਗ। ੨੨ ਜਲ। ੨੩ ਵਜ੍ਰ। ੨੪ ਖਗ. ਪੰਛੀ। ੨੫ ਬਿਰਛ। ੨੬ ਫ਼ਾ. __ ਵ੍ਯ- ਯਦ੍ਯਪਿ. ਅਗਰਚਿ। ੨੭ ਵਿ- ਕਥਨ ਕਰਤਾ. ਕਹਿਣ ਵਾਲਾ. ਐਸੀ ਦਸ਼ਾ ਵਿੱਚ ਇਸ ਦਾ ਪ੍ਰਯੋਗ ਸ਼ਬਦ ਦੇ ਅੰਤ ਹੁੰਦਾ ਹੈ, ਜੈਸੇ ਦਰੋਗ਼ਗੋ. ਬਦਗੋ। ੨੮ ਗੁਫ਼ਤਨ ਦਾ ਅਮਰ. ਤੂੰ ਕਹੁ. ਕਥਨ ਕਰ. [/SIZE] [SIZE=-1]
    [/SIZE]~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    Sat Sri Akal.


     
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  16. prakash.s.bagga

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    AMBARSARIA Ji,
    Here one can see that the word ONKAAR is not proper NOUN.It is Transitive for EKO .
    I think it means EKO within ONKAAR.
    Just a grammatical consideration of the words.
    Prakash.s.Bagga
    Prakash.s.
     
  17. Ambarsaria

    Ambarsaria ੴ / Ik▫oaʼnkār
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    Veer Prakash.S.Bagga ji I would prefer if such you can be raised in the other thread, if you want. I mentioned it only since no one commented on it.

    What you think of the other post above about ਗੋ .
    http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/gurmat-vichaar/37723-man-har-rang-r-g-vaigo-2.html#post157930

    I kind of came across it by chance as I was looking up something for Sukhmani Sahib.

    Sat Sri Akal.
     
  18. Tejwant Singh

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    Amabarsaria ji,

    Guru Fateh.

    Excactly what I said. It is cause and affect which happens instantly, especially in the Rahao part of the original Shabad. The Effect is always related to the cause. Nothing is in the distant future. The effect is immediate, however depending on the thing, the result may manifest outwardly later.

    Thanks for sharing this interesting thing and it shows that ]ਭਵਿਸ਼੍ਯਤ (ਆਉਣ ਵਾਲੇ ਸਮੇਂ) does not mean anything way out in the future. In Gurbani Past,Present and Future are attached to each other like pearls in a necklace, one after the other especially in the Shabad that you interpreted in a beautiful manner.

    Regards

    Tejwant Singh
     
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  19. Tejwant Singh

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    Prakash Singh ji,

    Guru fateh.

    As mentioned before there is nothing called transitive noun as you keep on insisting again and again but there are transitive and intransitive verbs.

    So, please try once more with your explanation but this time with the correct grammar. I even offered my help to share with you the difference between these two verbs and you admitted that you were wrong thinking about a transitive noun but you have used the same thing again to prove something that does not exist.

    Onkaar IS a proper noun. it means the ONLY ONE SOURCE of ALL there is.You are making things up again.How many Onkaars do you know that Gurbani talks about?

    It is sad to know that you keep on twisting things when challenged as usual which is a shame.

    You tried to play the same trick when challenged in the other thread where I proved you were wrong about the compound noun with preposition because you called it an adjective and then named it a transitive noun. I posted the Shabads with different examples and you stuck to one word Pramaatma translated by Prof. Sahib Singh and used it as a diversionary tactic from our specific topic from which we were trying to learn. Sadly, you never admitted your fault which is a shame.

    Just for you to understand the difference, following is the definition:

    Proper Noun Definition:
    A noun belonging to the class of words used as names for unique individuals, events, or places. Contrast with common noun.

    http://grammar.about.com/od/pq/g/propnounterm.htm

    Please do not make things up especially as far as Gurbani is concerned. Admit when you do not know. We are all Sikhs and we are in here together to learn.

    Regards

    Tejwant Singh
     
  20. prakash.s.bagga

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    TEJWANT SINGh Ji,

    You can see that if the word ONKAAR was to be Proper NOUN then the word wouldhave been with a Matra of AUKAD as ONKAARu.
    There is very limited use of the word ONKAAR and that too as PLURAL .
    Try to understand SANSKRIT Grammar for transitives as NOUN,PRONOUN,VERB or ADVERB.This is not so in normal grammar you seem to be familiar.
    With regards
    PRAKASh.S BAGGA

    P.S I just recollect that the meaning of the word ONKAAR is forDHUN(i) that is for SOUND. Does Gurbani connects us to SOUND or LIGHT.?
    .
     
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