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Hard Talk Male Domination, Gender Discrimination In Sikhism

Discussion in 'Hard Talk' started by Harkiran Kaur, Apr 18, 2016.

  1. Harkiran Kaur

    Harkiran Kaur Canada
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    At least you are a male. As a female I could say the same thing, that being a female is a punishment for some past karma or something. At least you can walk into a Gurdwara and everyone will see you as a male, and not try to place limitations on you. Try being female in a religion of all male Gurus, nearly all the historical role models are male (and the ones that are female are recognized as being Mother to... wife of... etc so their fame is more related to the males they are related to - Mai Bhago aisde, all the women historical role models are meek and valued for being Mother of, or wife of...) Nearly ALL Granthis, Gurdwara Management Committees, Raagis, scholars etc are male, the first Panj Pyaras are male (and now its used to keep women from doing this seva), some sampardas tell wives they must be obedient to their husband and see and serve him as a God over her, Man leads in anand karaj, woman follows, some sampardas keep women from seva because of menstruation, darbar sahib doesn't allow women to do most seva... no kirtan, no palki sahib seva, no female granthis, no female allowed to participate in akhand paaths, no female can wash sanctum sanctorum etc. Women are always shown only in langar kitchen, as if to make a statement and stereotype that women are only good for cooking. Then we have Dasam Granth and over 600 pages of stories with the central moral message that women are evil, immoral and deceivers that men should never trust (very very few similar stories of males). I think I'd almost rather be a gay male than a female in Sikhi (or any other religion) IF any of this were correct views! I know they are not. They are just about people trying to control other people. Nobody wants to admit that everyone is equal and nobody is following Gurbani saying to TREAT everyone equally!

    "As Gurmukh, look upon ALL with a single eye of equality for in each and every heart the divine light is contained" - Seems majority have forgotten this! It's not a punishment... you have divine light in you same as everyone else. It's just who you are. Maybe its just a challenge, maybe last time you felt empathy for those in your current situation and you wanted to experience it to really understand (on a soul level). In reality gender is part of the illusion. We are all formless consciousness... and you also deserve happiness.

    Having said that, I don't think you will ever be able to do anand karaj. But you can marry by civil ceremony. Try Thailand etc... Maybe Russia or Ukraine?
     
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  3. Rajwinder

    Rajwinder United States
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    I think no doubt male domination is there even in western cultures may be less then what it is in asian cultures .. and i think it will probably take another century or so before some significant change can happen or some other miracle happen .. so u r probably right it's kind of debatable who is in worse condition ..

    The rituals that u mentioned from which females are prohibited to participate .. i think in a way it is good .. reason is that they are any how mostly meaningless .. like putting gold on building .. washing with milk etc.

    Probably when our guru said "Khalsa mero roop hai khaas, Khaalse meh hau karau nivaas" .. the only thing we took damnnnnn seriously is "Roop" .. we didnt payed attention on what it require to be Khalsa ;-(
     
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  4. Harry Haller

    Harry Haller United Kingdom
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    this is brilliant stuff, why have you never mentioned it before?
     
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  5. Harkiran Kaur

    Harkiran Kaur Canada
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    But Kirtan??? Akhand path?? Panj pyara seva???
     
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  6. Rajwinder

    Rajwinder United States
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    Frankly if u ask me even those are nothing more then rituals to me ;-) and same thing apply ... i think all these things are visible in our world and we dont see many females doing these and that may be a point to you that females are not allowed .. but i really doubt that to live a simple , honest and logical life u actually need to do any of these just for sake of it .. Like will it make a diff to you that u r doing kirtan in a big crowd etc .. point is i totally agree that in all these activities these people who think they understood sikh religion thing better then other made these rules and so called followers just accepted so something needs to be said about them too ;-) but all this doesn't mean that u cant do cocktail of raga's and words from guru granth sahib your self , by ready guru granth sahib continuously without giving break .. not sure what we want to achive with that .. and panj pyara thing .. really ?? i can imagine this situation like this http://www.a2zmenu.com/FunAtWork/images/Software-Development-Life-Cycle.gif .. although this is software world example .. but some how apply here .. our gurus had some intentions > they did and worked accordingly > our ancestors made some meaning out of it > somebody made a religion out of it > then interpretation of the religion and then people who cant see other happy mix stuff in religions to make people fight ..

    good example is this thread itself which started from this guys same sex thing and here we totally forget him and talking about women empowerment .. ( this is joke btw )
     
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  7. Harkiran Kaur

    Harkiran Kaur Canada
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    I brought it up to show him that even though things seem bad from his point of view, he still has it better than females.

    Regards to kirtan, panj pyaras, etc Yes I think it's necessary or else why was Khalsa created? Guru Gobind Singh Ji would not have created Khalsa if he did not think it was necessary. You can't just look at it as being an empty ritual. Same with kirtan. We are supposed to gather in Sangat and do kirtan. Otherwise, why not everyone just stay at home then and forget the Gurdwara altogether?
     
  8. Harry Haller

    Harry Haller United Kingdom
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    sounds like a good idea to me, what gets achieved in the Gurdwaras of today anyway? its more like a social club.
     
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  9. Rajwinder

    Rajwinder United States
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    I think that is what i tried to convey previously .. Guru made all these things for khalsa .. but just by wearing turban or having beard or wearing five things on your body u dont become khalsa .. so we are putting all the emphasis on roop but the qualities that we need that probably what guru thought of khalsa are missing so i think lets have the qualities first before having this roop and then may be these things may make some sense ..
     
  10. Sherdil

    Sherdil
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    I thinks it's important to differentiate Sikhi from Punjabi culture. Sikhi doesn't promote the disenfranchisement of women, therefore one has to look at the culture in which this is happening. The same culture that promotes female fetocide cannot be realistically expected to allow women equality in all matters in the gurdwara.
     
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  11. Harkiran Kaur

    Harkiran Kaur Canada
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    But is it really up to them to ALLOW or DISALLOW women at all??? Can the women decide to DISALLOW men to do these things??
     
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  12. Sherdil

    Sherdil
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    As you said in your previous post, it is the men who are currently in charge. Therefore, the onus is on them to allow women a greater role in gurdwara affairs. From my observation, this is a Punjabi cultural problem. I see less of it in the diaspora.
     
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  13. namritanevaeh

    namritanevaeh Canada
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    I know for sure in Khalsa schools in bc girls and women are encouraged to do kirtan, chor sewa, many other things that you see more men do in gurdwarey. And while I haven't seen a lot of women doing chor sewa in my local gurdwara I have seen a handful. Haven't seen much kirtan tho. :(

    But I saw it in Montreal gurdwara! :) a whole group of women doing kirtan one day. :)
     

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