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Leaving Sikhism

Discussion in 'Hard Talk' started by monkeyyking, Apr 3, 2010.

  1. monkeyyking

    monkeyyking
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    <meta name="Generator" content="Microsoft SafeHTML"> <style> .ExternalClass .ecxhmmessage P {padding:0px;} .ExternalClass body.ecxhmmessage {font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana;} </style> Hi,

    I have been brought up as a devout sikh(No meat, alcohol and so forth) for 19 years .For the past 2-3 year I have been contemplating leaving not just sikhism but the entire idea of religion & god(I have about 2% belief that god really exists)
    .This has been brought about by things such as living in a multicultural london and witnessing first hand the absurdity of religion, understanding that when somebody chooses a relgion they automatically condem the rest of mankind that a life in the service of a god that may not exist is a one and only wasted life and many more thoughts similar to these. And no these thoughts didn't come from brain washing (lol) or any one human I've come into contact with but rather throught generalknowledge reasoning and more importantly my studies in both psychology and philosophy.I guess what I'm looking for is an intelligent and informed take on my current situation which my parents, close family, friends and even my local gurdwara could not provide to help me make this life changing decision.
    Thanks.
     
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  3. Mai Harinder Kaur

    Mai Harinder Kaur
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    Dear monkeyyking ji,

    At the risk of infuriating you, yours is a fairly typical reaction for a person your age. It is normal to question and try out different ideas. I remember when I was a young woman, after reading several of Ayn Rand's books, I decided to be a secret atheist. (It would have been difficult to do it openly, as I was in a devout Sikh household.) I tried for a while and then gave it up.

    More seriously, I tried again in the years after 1984. I purposely broke almost all my Khalsa vows and broke with the Sikh community for 20 years. I tried very hard to believe in all sorts of things - and in nothing. It didn't work. After this time, I returned home to Sikhi, a location that has - for me - all the answers I was looking for.

    Each of us has our own story. I wish you Godspeed or whatever you prefer for your journey. If "truthful living" means to you that you must leave us for a time, you must do what you must do. Just remember that you have a home and we will be waiting to welcome you back.

    :happykaur::happysingh::happykudi::veryhappymunda:
     
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    #2 Mai Harinder Kaur, Apr 3, 2010
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2010
  4. monkeyyking

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    Thanks for your input harjinder (my first reply:)), correct me if I'm wrong but I think your journey, as it were, was one to find your path in life or find confidene in your pre choosen path . I have heard of this before however my problem arose from try to understand why I am where I was and the most effective way to spend every breath I take on this earth. I would Respectfully like to pose two questions to you and anyone reading this 1.Your comment about having a home, Do you think that your returning to sikhism was caused by your need for emotional solace? 2.(I thought this to myself recently)Isn't it better to live like there is no god, die and learn that there was such a thing rather the live like there is a god die and nothing happens? (I think I'll copyright that! lol)
     
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  5. Mai Harinder Kaur

    Mai Harinder Kaur
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    Actually 1) and 2) have the same answer.

    I lived for 20 years like there was no supreme being (I dislike the term "god" personally), jumping from one thing to the next. Then I died two times in one night (a major stroke.) I had a rather dramatic NDE (near death experience), which was "the proof of all had never dared to believe." I hesitate to talk to much about this because I don't want to be "believed." It might have been the artifact of a dying brain starved for oxygen. But it was real to me and changed EVERYTHING. Now I am able to live in chardi kala, absolutely certain that everything really is the Hukam of Vaheguru. :veryhappykudi:

    WEhen I returned, to be truthful, I had no idea how I would be treated. I was treated with love and consideration, but even if I had been snubbed, I think it would have made no difference. To again experience the Darshan of Guru ji, to be in its presence was enough. Now I have a deeper and fuller happiness than I would ever have thought possible.

    As Neil Diamond memorably sang, "Being lost is worth the coming home."

    <object height="405" width="660">


    <embed src="http://www.youtube-nocookie.com/v/TQ4dTqsZbVA&hl=en_US&fs=1&rel=0&color1=0x006699&color2=0x54abd6&border=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" height="405" width="660"></object>

    BTW, I'm Harinder. Harjinder was my Dad.
     
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    #4 Mai Harinder Kaur, Apr 3, 2010
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  6. monkeyyking

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    Well I am happy for you, I just hope your not living in dellusion because of a traumatic and subconscious fear of not experiencing enough what you define as love, myself personally I was a serious asmathic for the first 15 years of my life and faced death alot, never got any NDE's hmmm....wonder why:whisling:
     
  7. Mai Harinder Kaur

    Mai Harinder Kaur
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    LOL, I know why. The time wasn't right for you. It all unfolds as it needs to. I assure you that I have experienced my full share of love and hate, and trauma and whatever is the opposite of trauma. You are just setting out on this remarkable journey. You will discover many wonderful and horrible things along the way. You will learn a great deal - or you won't. Who knows?

    If my life now is delusion, it is a happy and useful delusion, as I now devote my life to whatever sewa I am able to perform. I think the world is a little bit better because of this life of mine, whatever it is.

    Think on this a bit: You will change the world. Everybody does. The question is: how much and in what way? :blinkingkudi:
     
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  8. monkeyyking

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    ah,I too believe in serving fellow humans but would I need god or religion to make a positive change in this world?
     
  9. Mai Harinder Kaur

    Mai Harinder Kaur
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    Not at all. There are many atheists and nontheists doing a lot of good in this world. I am just saying that my life, delusionary or not, is accomplishing something positive. And I am very happy doing it.

    My life has not been easy (although it started out that way) or without tragedy and hardship. By the kirpaa of Vaheguru (or possibly my own efforts + an NDE) I am working past all that.

    I wouldn't presume to tell you what is right for you; you have to find your own "truthful living." That is a big challenge, as you first have to discover what that means to you. And it can - and usually does - change over time. My best wishes on your journey.
     
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  10. monkeyyking

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    Well I thank you from the bottom of my heart for your input, It was quite educating maybe I won't find any answers in other but myself thank you BTW to you have any adove on how to deal with parents if I decide not to live a sikh life?
     
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  11. Mai Harinder Kaur

    Mai Harinder Kaur
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    Ah, yes, parents! That's the rub, isn't it? I can only imagine how I would have felt if my child had come to me and announced he wasn't a Sikh any more. If this came with no hint beforehand, no doubt I would have had a heart attack! If I had noticed that he was losing his enthusiasm, I would probably expect something like this. In any case, I would try to talk him out of it, ask him to take some more time, think about it. I would no doubt remind him of our shaheeds who had died for our beliefs/way of life and the proud history that he was walking away from. In the end, being a Sikh cannot be compelled, it must be a free choice, and if he had to find his own way, I hope I would give him my blessing. I do know that there is nothing that could have changed my love for him. And I would never give up hoping for his return.

    I do not know your parents and what they are like. No doubt, such an announcement from you will break their hearts and there is no way around that. You must prepare yourself for whatever reaction they have. Expect the worst and hope for the best. There is no easy way. Whatever you do, do it as an adult, being strong and act like a woman or man (whichever you are). Unless you fear for your physical safety, sit them down and talk to them in person, as gently as you can. DO NOT leave them a letter or some such cowardly device. And most certainly, don't e-mail or text them!! This is a huge step and, since your parents are devout, it may be irrevocable from their point of view. (I know that's not what we are taught as Sikhs, but parents are, after all, human beings.)

    From what I have read of you, I think you are an intelligent thoughtful person and would not put yourself and your family through this lightly, without much soul-searching and consideration. You will do this only if there is no other way. Please be 100% sure that this is what you need to do before proceeding. Take your time. You have a lot of life ahead of you and there's no hurry, although I know it doesn't seem that way at your age. I do believe if you really feel that living as a Sikh is not "truthful living" for you, you cannot live a lie. Just be very, very, very sure before you approach your parents.

    I would also suggest that you read responses from others here at SPN. We have very good people here, many who have wisdom far beyond mine.

    Whatever you do, please let me know. I will try to be of service.

    ikonkaar :khanda3: :happykaur:
     
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  12. Embers

    Embers
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    Hello Moneyyking and welcome!
    I can relate with your post, not because I am from a similar background, not at all, but there appears to be little logic in the way that rituals, prayer or any form of devotion fits in with today's lifestyle and society. People embrace ideas because it feels like the idea is something to hang on to... the lesson to learn from that is that there is no idea that doesn't change at some point. It is not even a societal thing, the apparently absurd behavior of some individuals alone is enough to make it appear that people have lost their minds in it all.

    It is up to you what you do and with it will come the consequences of your actions, I don't feel you are looking for a post from me on how to live with a decision or to deal with others disappointment. What I have learnt is that the less impact I make on others which could result in their stress or unhappiness the better I feel after I took any decision. Do things gently. It doesn't mean that one cannot cut oneself free from background and explore, but it makes a life a lot easier to think I did it without worrying those I care about by announcing myself a changed person. So I just go about doing what feels right, with little impact to others.

    Forget about prooving God, instead experience life and enjoy the fresh air. No one can proove God for you. Forget about ritual and prayer, instead read the SGGS when you feel the inclination and do something else when not. Not everyone will agree with this, but the rest will happens as it is meant to.

    Best wishes
    Ambers.
     
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  13. ballym

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    OK Moneyisking Ji,
    Sat Sri Akal,
    if u check my other posts, I have almost never did the salutaion ....
    It is just to say that "truth is God".
    1. Why are you eager to inform ur parents first.
    2. Have you finalised what you r going to do after the declaration?
    3. What purpose is served? Are you doing any good to humanity by declaring that?
    my point in these posers is that you should focus on other important issues about your life/ religion/ atheism path rather than declaring it to your parents.
    If you want to really do it... there are large number of indirect soft ways.
    You say that no-one helped you. i guess you were not in right people. It is not easy to find one at Local Gurudwara.
    Internet is lot lot powerful.
    4. Now let us talk about what your thoughts are. So, how is it final that God is not there. BTW I am also skeptical but ....
    There are rebirth stories... and authenticated ones. There are so many well educated people who have had so many "experiences". If you and I have not had one.. that does not mean that they all are liers.
    How can they ALL be wrong and you may be right all at this age?
    It is like someone aying that only I have the knowledge about which stock will go up tomorrow morning :)
    statistically speaking, you need to gather more evidence about being right.

    5.So what path you are going to take after leaving sikhism. None? right? are you sure your brain will allow that?
    human brain is a powerhouse. It has great power to destruct. It needs to be kept in check.
    Religion provides a well oiled breaking system without even identifying itself as such.
    You will have some faith/ belief/ thinking.
    Do you think that is better than all of religion and gurus of the world?
    It must be so... otherwise you can find one readymade belief for you. And no good one would allow you to displease near and dear ones.
    For finding your path you do not have to leave sikhism.

    I have a feeling that you are using it as a weapon to be even with your parents. It manifests in your eagerness to make the DECLARATION.
    I can understand the strictness you may have faced, denial of free speech etc etc etc..... but a retaliatory approach is just a similar act from your side.
    I can tell you that there are sooooooooo many faiths/ Gurus ... you can always find one for you... Do not go by my language. I am not saying that they have opened a shop... but there are many many who are providing real service to mankind.
    I am sure about it.
    disclosure: I have none yet. My mind does not let me accept someone as my Guru.
    But I know many Jatts who have a Guru.... away fom sikh Gurus!!!.
    I can only say that our religion is best one among the established ones. I am sure you have not done thorough research.
    You are a seeker... so start the journey without breaking link.
     
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  14. ballym

    ballym
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    BTW 2 % is too high for me.
    Guru Nanak says... Kirat karo , van chhakko and naam japo.... where does God come into picture.... if you do not want Him to be there. just leave him. I do not know if I ever went to Gurudwara to find God.
    Our Guru denounced rituals..... That is one of the PRIMARY reasons I am a sikh. And I consider being lucky to be a sikh... though it is being brought to shame by people at the top at present.
    Just imagine if I was a muslim... may be I would have been in mUmbai with the uns!!! or dead as fidayeen.. or may be lucky to have four wives.
    It is the followers who bring in wrong practices... your parents may have done it without any mistake on their part.
    In UK, a large population of sikhs and more percentage came from village background. many still believe that Bhindranwale will comeback!!.
    once again, I would say that you have a large list and area yet unexplored by you.
    Do not act before you really know more.
    SEEK SEEK SEEK more... You are on right track but must be having some bad advisors or no advisors at all.
     
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  15. monkeyyking

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    I'm a man BTW lol:rofl!!:.I thank you all for your input but I have already systematically and slowly over the yearss brought the idea to my parents that I may not be a sikh .And I think devout may have been too much of a powerful word, myself or my parents aren't amrit or anything.No one in my family apart from my mum can read prayers and she was the one who encouraged me to question everything:eek:.So I had already made my DECLARATION a long time ago over time. for the past couple of months and why I'm using this forum is waiting for something to pull me back because honestly I wish I still belived in god:(.It's when I try to pray, try to enter a gurdwara though I'll try, deep down I have too much doubt. The worst is trying to wear paag to the point where I feel physically sick because of putting something so powerful, with great meaning to the point where lives were lost for it and not trully or even moderately believing in the core principles it represents (e.g. there is a god.)And yes If I had to pick any religion from the world it would not doubt have been sikhism it is clearly the most advanced, and most peace giving.Thanks ambers imput I guess I may be more closer to your way of thinking. Or maybe i'm to lazy to start shaving every week :akidd: a little Humor never hurt anyone :thumbup:
    Please keep your comments coming! they are amazing help.:eek:
     
  16. ballym

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    Could not get this...... I can see what you are thinking or planning... an escape route? Some more words to justify your action....
    If you have to go to that path go ahead. Many on this forum have already crossed that line. I would say you are attaching too much importance to it. As you said.. keep searching, thinking are remain true to yourself.
    one more sehajdhari sikh? :)

    OK Bye Bye TaTa.... phir milenge ( we will meet again). if you are born outside India... these words are common at the back of truck frame in India.
    One last bit... totally submitting yourself to Guru brings focus and peace to MANY. It is difficult... I can not do it. But I have seen some people. We may think they are dumb... but they find it blissful.. which is what you may be seeking in life... happiness.
     
  17. monkeyyking

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    I'm probably leaving these forums now, For those of you who are wondering what I'm going to do I will probably leave religion and hope there still is a god.It took admirable sikhs nay humans to show me the greatness of sikhism and more Importantly its high value FOR freedom of choice.I cannot thank you all enough.I may come back but probably not.Hope This thread helps someone else in the future.

    PEACE,LOVE AND RESPECT PAJIS AND PENJIS:thumbsupp:
     
  18. PCJ

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    This youngman's actions wouldn't be considered leaving Sikhi if Sikhi was not defined as such. Perfection is undefined and anything that is defined can not lead to perfection.

    I myself left Sikhi because of Sikhi. That may sound crazy but this is true. I learnt to treat all equally from Sikhi because Sikhs always claim that Sikhi is all about equality of all mankind but the truth is Sikhi has nothing at all to do with equality of all mankind. But it was too late for me change...

    This youngman is on the right path because he only seeks perfection. The one who seeks perfection will eventually achieve perfection if he puts his mind and soul into it.
     
  19. Astroboy

    Astroboy Malaysia
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    Excerpts from The Destiny of a Gurmukh
    Those whose inner eye is not open are really atheists in the true sense of the word. Such people have ever persecuted the Masters. Guru Nanak was forbidden to enter the city of Kasur, for they accused him of corrupting the minds of the people. and Guru Arjan was made to sit on a red-hot plate. The outer sacred songs can be sung anywhere by any person, but the true Song of God can only be sung in the company of a Saint. "When you transcend the five elements, you contact the five-sounded Shabad."
    The God Power is in you and shall never leave you; that remains forever.

    Mere lip service saying, "Ram, Ram," is a mockery. But he who takes his Guru as the ever-present Power of God within him, lives in awe of that and knows that Power has constant observation over all his thought and action.

    <table cellspacing="5"><tbody><tr><td> ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ
    ੴ सतिगुर प्रसादि ॥
    Ik▫oaʼnkār saṯgur parsāḏ.
    One Universal Creator God. By The Grace Of The True Guru:

    </td></tr> <tr><td> ਸਲੋਕੁ ਮਃ
    सलोकु मः ५ ॥
    Salok mėhlā 5.
    Shalok, Fifth Mehl:

    </td></tr> <tr><td> ਅੰਤਰਿ ਗੁਰੁ ਆਰਾਧਣਾ ਜਿਹਵਾ ਜਪਿ ਗੁਰ ਨਾਉ
    अंतरि गुरु आराधणा जिहवा जपि गुर नाउ ॥
    Anṯar gur ārāḏẖ▫ṇā jihvā jap gur nā▫o.
    Deep within yourself, worship the Guru in adoration, and with your tongue, chant the Guru's Name.

    </td></tr> <tr><td> ਨੇਤ੍ਰੀ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਪੇਖਣਾ ਸ੍ਰਵਣੀ ਸੁਨਣਾ ਗੁਰ ਨਾਉ
    नेत्री सतिगुरु पेखणा स्रवणी सुनणा गुर नाउ ॥
    Neṯrī saṯgur pekẖ▫ṇā sarvaṇī sunṇā gur nā▫o.
    Let your eyes behold the True Guru, and let your ears hear the Guru's Name.

    </td></tr> <tr><td> ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਸੇਤੀ ਰਤਿਆ ਦਰਗਹ ਪਾਈਐ ਠਾਉ
    सतिगुर सेती रतिआ दरगह पाईऐ ठाउ ॥
    Saṯgur seṯī raṯi▫ā ḏargėh pā▫ī▫ai ṯẖā▫o.
    Attuned to the True Guru, you shall receive a place of honor in the Court of the Lord.

    </td></tr> <tr><td> ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਕਰੇ ਜਿਸ ਨੋ ਏਹ ਵਥੁ ਦੇਇ
    कहु नानक किरपा करे जिस नो एह वथु देइ ॥
    Kaho Nānak kirpā kare jis no eh vath ḏe▫e.
    Says Nanak, this treasure is bestowed on those who are blessed with His Mercy.

    </td></tr> <tr><td> ਜਗ ਮਹਿ ਉਤਮ ਕਾਢੀਅਹਿ ਵਿਰਲੇ ਕੇਈ ਕੇਇ ॥੧॥
    जग महि उतम काढीअहि विरले केई केइ ॥१॥
    Jag mėh uṯam kādẖī▫ah virle ke▫ī ke▫e. ||1||
    In the midst of the world, they are known as the most pious - they are rare indeed. ||1||
    </td></tr></tbody></table>
     
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  20. ballym

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    This word "if" is powerful. It allows people to state ANYTHING and qualify it later.
    So we have a precedent in PCJ.
    But PCJ has not enlightened us if he/she has found perfection. If yes... how .. and let us have the benefit of finding it ourselves. If you are yet to find it then.... we need to say nothing more.
    Let us have yes no type answers.
    All such people seem to be enlightened and philosophical.... away from real world..... and without answeres for us ... still in dark.
    If sikhi guided about equality.. did it do it by professing inequality? What is other alternative. Did you find it?
    merely making statement without clarification... like moneyisking..... is agin showing here.
    Let us have light..... Mercury light....
    One last thing.... why does these direct questions remain unanswered.
     
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  21. Mai Harinder Kaur

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    "The answers we give, Yes or no - or maybe -
    Should be clear. The darkness around us is deep.":shockedkudi:
     
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