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Kirpan - Single edged or Double edged?

Discussion in 'Questions and Answers' started by Ishna, Jun 23, 2013.

  1. Ishna

    Ishna
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    I recently contacted my local customs office about importing a kirpan. They said "Double sided (cutting edges) fixed blade knives are classified by Customs as daggers which are subject to import control" and that I have to get a form to import one.

    The link I sent them to was for a "double sided" kirpan - but I thought that was with reference to the design on the sheath.

    Aren't kirpans usually single sided? They allow single-sided swords (like samurai swords) but not daggers which they say are "double sided".

    Am confooosed. Help appreciated, many thanks.
     
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  3. spnadmin

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    Ishna ji

    Let me turn the situation around. In all US jurisdictions, and apparently in Australia too, a double edged blade is classified as a "dagger." (See image 1) A kirpan is not a dagger, but a single edged blade.

    In nearly all states in the US one may not carry a dagger on one's person, concealed or not-concealed. However, one can carry a single-edged blade as long as it is not a switch-blade. A single-edged blade may not be carried concealed.

    Digression: There is a fair amount of legal mumbo-jumbo at the municipality level as to what constitutes "concealed", and a mandated number of inches must be visible. That leaves a kirpan in a gatra in the OK category, almost everywhere, unless the local polizzioti are in a bad mood.

    Where does that leave the kirpan? The last 3 images I attached here pass the litmus test in the US. They are single-edged and enough of the blade is visible.

    Send them a different picture. Something clearly a single-edged blade.

    Why can't you purchase a kirpan in OZ? There sure are many a Sikh in OZ. Find out where he/she made the purchase.
     

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    #2 spnadmin, Jun 23, 2013
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2013
  4. spnadmin

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  5. Ishna

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    Thanks so much Admin ji. I was thinking, maybe by 'double sided' they meant sharp on both flat sides, not sharp all the way around, or something.

    I'll send them a pic of what I want to order.

    When I speak to Sikhs here, it seems that most of them put their orders in with whoever is visiting India or Malaysia and they bring back fabric and other supplies. I can't find a seller locally, and I've seen feedback on international seller's websites by Australian Sikhs who've been buying their stuff.
     
  6. Tejwant Singh

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    Ishna ji,

    Guru Fateh.

    I am surprised that the Gurdwara you visit does not keep the 4 Kakaars in stock for people like you. Both of the Gurdwaras here do that.

    If I were you I would ask them about it or many other Amritdharis always have extra kakaars for the same purpose.

    Lastly, I have no idea what the "Anti- Terrorist" laws are in your country. Getting a Kirpan may put you in some kind of data base by some ignorant.I hope not.

    Regards

    Tejwant Singh
     
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  7. Ishna

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    I don't know what the go is with my Gurdwara - the kara I got is too big, I had to ask an auntie going to India to bring me back some kacchera (which don't fit, unfortunately), when I asked about turban material they asked me what for, and when I asked about amrit sanchar they said they probably won't be able to gather Panj Pyare in my city, so then I asked about a naming ceremony instead and he said he has to ask the Committee about it. o_O
     
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    #6 Ishna, Jun 24, 2013
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2013
  8. spnadmin

    spnadmin United States
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    Ishna ji

    You do not have to be physically present for a naming ceremony. Gyani ji arranged one for another forum member. Send him a private message and he will tell you more.

    Sounds as if your plans have suffered some set backs, but just regroup and try to accomplish one thing at a time.

    Take a look at Sikh Links for a kara that fits.
     
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  9. sikh15

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    Ishna ji,

    Gurfateh,

    I agree with Admin ji. I just called Sikh Link not too long ago and they carry karas in all sizes. I have a rather big area at the knuckle to get the the kara over, so I asked if they had a 4" diameter one and he said they have all sizes. I haven't ordered it yet, though. Good luck!

    -Justin
     
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  10. spnadmin

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    Ishna ji

    On the kirpan question. I finally remembered the name of a company that makes and ships custom kirpans. These will be serious kirpans and cost more than the average price on gurdwara supplies web sites.

    The company is khalsa kirpan and I am not going to post the link. But any company that makes kirpan should know what international restrictions apply and can advise you accordingly. This company posts a phone number at the top of the home page.

    There is another site, more like an e-mall, that purveys turban material and kirpan. Google Sikh Stuff. It seems to be located in France, but I am not sure. There is a contact us link on the checkout page. I would definitely try to find out how they ship and how they address Australian laws regarding shipment of offensive weapons.

    That way you don't have to send pictures off and/or have a back-and-forth with a bureaucrat who may not understand your question.

    This is a digression. Answers an earlier question. Yes a Kirpan must be carried "open" in Australia. Just like the US
    http://unitedsikhs.org/m_i_rights/WP-1.1 _Carrying of the Kirpan_Australia.pdf

    Also see Section 51 of the Weapons Amendment Act of 2011 which went into effect in 2012
     
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    #9 spnadmin, Jun 25, 2013
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2013
  11. Ishna

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    Thanks Justin and Admin jios. I've been wearing my oversized, bent Kara for a couple of years now, I think I'm used to it. It was funny though when I asked for one and they went searching forthrightly smallest one they could find. They tried. :)
    Ooohhh I've been eying off those "Khalsa kirpans". They ARE expensive compared to others, but it's pretty much a lifetime investment. I just don't want to come off as showy, you know? That's not my intention.

    Aaaanyway, I think I have enough information to find the right thing. I was at the police website yesterday checking legislation and hooray, kirpans carried by Sikhs are exempt from the weapons carrying legislation. Always good when we're actually named in black and white. :)
     
    #10 Ishna, Jun 25, 2013
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2013
  12. spnadmin

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    I added to my last post while you were reply to it. There is another site which I mention that may also be helpful to you.
     
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  13. Ishna

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    Thanks Admin ji.

    The Weapons Amendment Act 2011 doesn't apply to my state. That's the irritating thing here, each state has their own legislation for most things.

    Also the PDF you linked to is coming up as 'broken or damaged' on my PC and I can't open it, but if I google the file myself I can open it. Weird. Ah, the PDF applies to yet another state. My state hasn't developed anything nice like this yet. My state has a reputation of being a bit behind. If anyone wants to find me they should have enough info now! LOL

    The Victorian police has a very nice info sheet www.police.vic.gov.au/retrievemedia.asp?media_id=90509
     
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    #12 Ishna, Jun 25, 2013
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  14. spnadmin

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    Kirpan are not double edged daggers. They are a single edge, fixed blade knife.

    Ishna jij I already posted that in most states of the US daggers may not be carried at all. Single edged blades - i.e., that in includes kripans - may be carried, but they must be carried open and unsheathed. Kirpan may even be carried open on airlines, under the length restriction. Over the restriction they must be checked with baggage.

    Regulated restrictions can include public buildings like schools; however again depending on the state exceptions are made for kirpan as religious symbols. In some states children must wear them sewn into a pocket.

    Private enterprises may exclude kirpan if they choose.

    In Pennsylvania kirpans may be carried open; however teachers may not wear religious symbols of any kind -- that would include kirpan.

    Rules must vary from country to country.
     
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    #13 spnadmin, Jul 6, 2013
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2013
  15. Ishna

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    I understand that now, however it doesn't seem to be quite the definition the police in my state (in Australia) are using.

    My apologies - my post was about Australian law in particular. Actually I've deleted it now since it's actually probably not very helpful information for anyone.

    Thanks for all the extra context. It's interesting to see how separate groups regulate themselves.
     
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    #14 Ishna, Jul 6, 2013
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2013

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