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Kirpan Attack by Dasam Granth Advocates Renews Sikh Dagger Debate: Did We Need This?

Discussion in 'Hard Talk' started by roab1, Apr 7, 2010.

  1. roab1

    roab1
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    The so called pendu mentality. Once again larger community will have to suffer because of 'heroic bravery' of few. Province of Quebec has already banned niqab and noone will shed a tear if Kirpan is next.

    Attack renews Sikh dagger debate
    Temple president stabbed with kirpan


    The crowd of about 150 people was yelling obscenities and threats outside the Sikh Lehar Centre in Brampton when three temple officials stepped out to pacify them.

    Within seconds, one in the crowd, clutching a thick steel bangle, punched Manjit Mangat, the 53-year-old president of the Sikh temple, in the face. Witnesses say at least two men brandished unsheathed kirpans, the Sikh ceremonial dagger.

    The next moment, Mangat, a prominent Brampton lawyer, was on the ground — his face bloodied and a 5-inch wound in his abdomen.
    Brampton’s Sukhwant Singh, in his early 50s, has been charged with attempted murder and aggravated assault, Peel police say. Singh’s next court appearance is on Thursday.

    Any weapon could have been used in the attack, but the fact that it was a kirpan alarms Sikh leaders who fear the incident will rouse objections once again over one’s right to wear the religious symbol in public.

    “We are fighting for two symbols all over the world — turban and kirpan,” said Gurdev Gill, who witnessed the attack on Mangat. “They have both been misused in front of everyone. Why would people listen to us when we now say that it (kirpan) is ceremonial in nature ... not meant to kill people?”

    A steel blade anywhere from 2 to 8 inches long, the kirpan is supposed to be worn by baptized Sikhs at all times, sheathed under their clothes. But debates have raged across the country whether the wearing of the dagger, seen by Sikhs as a symbolic weapon in the fight against evil, compromises public security.

    The kirpan is banned in Denmark and France and there have been several court cases in states of the U.S. involving the legality of wearing the kirpan in public places. But it is allowed in most public places in Canada, including at schools. There have been some incidents in the past in the Toronto area where the kirpan was used in an assault, but none as high-profile as the one on Friday in Brampton.

    When Amanpreet Bal first heard about the scuffle and the stabbing, he hoped that a kirpan hadn’t been used. Every time, the kirpan comes back into the spotlight, “it means an uphill battle for us to educate people about its spiritual significance,” said Bal of the World Sikh Organization, an agency which has fought for Sikhs’ rights to wear the kirpan.

    “Ignorant people have no idea what the impact of this (incident) can be,” he said. “The community will see the impact of this incident for years to come. It presents a tremendous challenge to the Sikhs.”

    Controversy over the kirpan first burst onto the national scene in 2001 when Montrealer Gurbaj Singh Multani, then a 12-year-old student, accidentally dropped his 8-inch ceremonial daggerat school. It triggered a five-year-long dispute with the school board over his right to wear the dagger. In 2006, the Supreme Court of Canada upheld his right to wear it to school in a landmark judgment.

    A debate erupted in Montreal again about 18 months ago when police said a 13-year-old student had allegedly threatened two students with his kirpan. In April 2009, a judge found him guilty of threatening them, but with a hairpin used to secure a turban.

    The issue of the kirpan is a delicate one in the community. Sikhs will voice their concern about its misuse but few will openly discuss what can be done about it. Balraj Deol, editor of Khabarnama, a weekly Punjabi newspaper published in Brampton, says it is time for the clergy to examine the issue of how to make the kirpan safe.

    “We have seen from time to time that people have used it as a weapon and it’s very dangerous,” said Deol.

    Its size is one issue, he said. “It’s a religious symbol. It can be tiny,” not more than 2 inches long. He also points out that the kirpan — a really small one — can be worn around the neck, which would address security concerns.

    Others have bounced the idea of locked kirpans — where they can’t be unclasped.

    Harnish Athwal, a 35-year-old mother of two young girls, says Friday’s violence has convinced her that the ceremonial dagger must be made safer. She was inside the temple when the scuffle broke out and was one of the first people to reach Mangat, slumped on the ground.

    “My kids saw it happen ... my 6-year-old daughter is still traumatized,” said Athwal, who also witnessed the incident. “She can’t understand why people would first yell and scream and then hurt someone so bad.”

    Meanwhile, Mangat is home from hospital, recuperating. “I thank God that I am alive,” he said. One of the wounds, he added, is nearly 5 inches deep and next to the right kidney, others are on his legs and thighs.

    But Mangat, who also wears a kirpan, says this abuse of the dagger should not be used against the religion. “These people have used religious emotions and symbols to attack others. It does not mean all Sikhs are violent.”

    Attack renews Sikh dagger debate - thestar.com
     

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  3. roab1

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    I have seen Sikhs asking this question whenever the issue of kirpan is raised...

    1. Has it ever been used as a weapon by Sikhs against anyone?

    Thanks to these heroes this question will never be asked again.
     
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  4. manbir

    manbir India
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    Surly time would come when we'll see Kirpan being banned by all civilized societies and countries. No amount of shouting and demonstrations and jakaras would be of any help.
    Even young educated Sikhs themselves would start distancing themselves from those with Kirpans. And you wont believe me the time has come. Our young Sikhs have already started hating the elements among us who carry themselves as Big GurSikhs with their actions repulsive to civilized society.
     
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  5. Mai Harinder Kaur

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    With all due respect, there is something very wrong here. No one was attacked with a kirpan and no one ever will be. In the very instance that a kirpan is used as an aggressive weapon, it ceases to be a kirpan, an article of faith; it is merely a knife or a dagger or a sword. And the person who wields it ceases to be a Gursikh and becomes a common criminal, a thug.

    I realse that this is a distinction that will be lost on the general public, but it must be made here, among us Sikhs. I also realise I am leaving myself open to attack for bluntly stating this, but it is the truth and, I am certain, the opinion of the vast majority of Sikhs who are good, peaceable. law-biding citizens of the respective countries.

    khandaa
     
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  6. singh.maninder

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    It is a pity and shows the degree of our evolution in terms of sikhi and how well versed one is with the sikh philosophy, The act or even the thought of using the KIRPAN degrades the stature of KIRPAN and turns KIRPAN into a ordinary piece of weapon which is not at all right. Attacking with a KIRPAN is not at all expectable.
     
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  7. Gyani Jarnail Singh

    Gyani Jarnail Singh Malaysia
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    These people are quoting Guru Gobind Singh Ji and Guru hargobind Sahib jis Battles against the Mughals....how very wrong and off the mark...

    The SIKH GURUS fought against Tyranny and Zulm of the RULING AUTHORITIES..the Power Crazy warlords, the MOBS (called mulkhaiyah) thta came in the hundreds of thousands to rob, murder and kill. Those didnt come to PREACH..perform prayers..or otherwise engage in a PEACEFUL gathering as in the Canadian situation and also in an Indian Gurdwara ta Asansol. The Battle of BHANGGANI in which a MUSLIM PIR and his 4 sons and 700 murids fought against the MUGHALS was ON GURU JIS SIDE..while the HINDU KINGS were on the MUGHAL SIDE. Clealry a battle for JUSTICE and Fair Play...a far cry form the cowardly attack on a Fellow SIKH on the steps of a GURDWARA..a SIKH who has been on the FOREFRONT FIGHTING for the SIKH DASTAAR (and the other Kakaars by inference) in a Foreign Country. A SIKH who could be the "target" of an ENEMY of SIKHS but never a Fellow SIKH..but thats what happened..a SIKH used a KARRA and a KIRPAN to wound him/attempted murder !!

    2. When I was a teenager..the Very FIRST CHILD HERO declared in malaysia was a SIKH CHILD..who used his DASTAAR to save a drowning Malay Child who was being dragged away by a fast flowing river...In That case it can be said..WHEN is a DASTAAR..not a Royal Headgear..but a ROPE.?? when its used to RESCUE a drowning man form fast flowing river waters !!! The Picture of the Sikh Child standing Bare headed with his dastaar in hand..is a TRUE SIKH..while the SIKH Man standing on the Gurdawra Steps Bareheaded and bleeding ( from a karra attack on his face) is a SHAME on ALL SIKHS..and the SHAME is earned by his ATTACKER !! THIS SHAME STAIN will take a very very LONG time to be washed if ever...
     
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  8. jasi

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    This is a sad day for all Canadian Sikhs.

    Yes ! do not be surprised if Canada will ban the out right carryin on the Kirpan from now on, not only here but possible other countries will follow the suits.

    Thanks to these uneducated people who has been destroying the basic principal of Guru Nanak Dev JI and our Gurus non -violence faith .
    Even Guru Gobindh Singh Ji preached to us of the use of force in extreme situations for seld defence as the last resort when all modes of readdressing the oppressor is exhausted.

    But here these guys start using the Kirpan like a weapon ljust ike street GUNDAS with so short temper on small arguments.They have no intelligence to do any healthy dialogues but resort to violence within a seconds.


    Such thier acts are blemshing the entire Sikh comminuity at large.


    We all made our self as a mockery in Canada and world. We are also sending our children's the message that it is ok to take law in their own hands because we are brave Sikhs.

    This is happening all over the world's Gurudwars by these short sited groups and local law enforcements are making note that Sikhs are very violent people.
     
    OUR BRAVE MEN NEVER YIELD TO SUCH PETTY STUPID THINGS AS A ACT OF BRAVERY TO MAKE SHINE THEIR NAMES IN HISTORY. 
     
    Gurudwars represent us place of prayers . One day we will be afraid to go to Gurudwars because of these Pakhandies who are there to control every thing and using a public donations.

    Uneducated priests blames the educated Sangat as number one threat to their security of controlling the Gurudwara.

    Last remarks what I heard by some prisets was. "all problems are created by these educated people."

    There is no return back to normalicy for these Gundas or uneducated self motivated people who already brought shame to one of the unique faith on this earth to bring our respect down by miss planing all their issues and used a plate form to brave to give or take any one's life for causes wh to resolve politcals issues ,Gurudwars isuues which could have handled democratically in democratic country.We are not under aurenzebs oppressors. we are free nationals to use our voting rights to dismantle any governmenty we wish.

    But politicians do not want to educate your right and power you have.

    The Government loves this to see more division in the faith. there is used to be one Gurudwars for all cast and preaching now we have over 50 SADH with their own Deras so they can control on their own .

    WAND KE SHAKNA OR BHAI SAHIB WORDS ARE BEING EVAPORATED EVERY MINUTE FROM OUR PREACHINGS.THE ONLY THING LEFT IS ONE HAS 1000 FOLLOWERS OR OTHER Have100000 FOLLOWERS.
     
    There has been plenty of self made GURUS and SADHS has opend their DERAS to avoid violance or other reasons to become them self new Gurus
     
    The concept of our one Guru Nanak Dev Ji is gone but these new Gurus have hold of many their own members under new names.Highest dscremination is being practices on based on cast or genders which was dismantled by our GURU NANAK DEV JI and cemented by GURU GOBIND SNGH JI by creating Khals by selecting from ower cast to make one cast that is human being with one single faith that there is only One God to worship..


    Das pray to Akal Purkh to bless some wisdom to these elements to stay away from our Gurudwars which is a sole source for many underprivileged Sangats and stop damaging our reputations in the world.


    Jaspi



     
  9. prabhleen

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    well....i just wanna say this eventually i'm a non-violental boy...but still...it's the matter for our guru ji and it must be say..that..

    gur ki ninda suney na kaan...tis bhait karo naal kirpaan..

    wjkk wjkf


    :veryhappymunda:
     
  10. balwant jakarta

    balwant jakarta
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    KIRPAN IS TO BE USED IN DEFENCE NOT ATTACK.IN DOING 'KIRPA' OR FAVOR WE USE KIRPAN.SIKHS SHOULD BE PRACTICING NIRMARTA AND NOT HAUMAI OR HANGKAR,AND KRODH.:veryhappymunda1:
     
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  11. Admin Singh

    Admin Singh
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    "Gur Ki Ninda Suney Na Kaan Bhet Karo Tis Naal Kirpan"


    Gurfateh Prabhleen Ji,

    A bit off-topic and my apologies but is this Tuk from Gurbani ie. from SGGS, our only Guru?

    Regards
     
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  12. Gyani Jarnail Singh

    Gyani Jarnail Singh Malaysia
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    IN SGGS..Kanra Mh 5.."HATH ho ho KIRPAN....meaning compassion !! dyawaan..kirpa waan...

    Again..Mh 5 Asa,,"mileyeah Gur-KIRPAAN..compassion..dya..kirpa..is the WAY to the GURU..

    No such exhortation towards VIOLENCE occurs in SGGS..the only "violence" a Sikh should indulge in is against the FIVE DUSHTS within..Kaam krodh..lobh haknkaar moh...clearly the person responsible in the kirpan stabbing of a fellow SIKH and Punching him on the nose with hsi KARRA..has lost control of His KRODH...and has let his HANKAAR become SUPREME (in his beleif that he is above all LAW and decency civilised behaviour )..and thus acted in the manner he did...sad day for Sikhi/Gurmatt.

    As a consequence of this RASH behaviour..millions of Kirpan wearing Sikhs world over will be once again under surveillance and criticism as violent , terrorists, trouble makers, etc etc...the "proof" is in the pudding...Even those "talking BIG before..are now running scared and advising..we all should "keep quiet"...let things cool down..blah blah..
    Lets show the world we are mature people...SANTS and SIPAHIS....not street gangsters/mobs.
     
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  13. roab1

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    This is what i term pendu mentality which is prevalant in whole of India. There is a lot of difference in India and the developed world dude. In India it is very easy to break law kill murder and loot and still get away if you have the right connections. Law and its enforcement is a joke in India. But not here, esp canada. Crime rate is very low. There is almost Zero Tolerance against violence. Ofcource there is violence but it is limited to a very small scale. Why did they use Kirpan? or give people a chance to claim it was used? If it gets banned will all of your fellows 'Sikhs' leave Canada or part with it outside home?

    These heroes wont be able to get with their bravery again, if they do they will be thrown out of Canada, even if they are citizens. And Darshan Singh has gone mainstream with his remarks calling DG 'obscene' which 'degrades women and promotes use of intoxicants'. Atlest a hundered thousand people read so called 'Guru ki Ninda', now you and the heroes cannot do anything except quoting quotes.

    People like you are guiding the actions of another stupid bunch in developed countries. You and your lot will do more damage than Darshan Singh you accuse. You will make sure that Sikhism in its pristine practised form will exist only in Punjab and states in India. Centuries ago Hindus shut their brains to outside world and lived in a nutshell which they called perfect. That limited their boundries. Are we next? Would a Sikh from Canada would be able to relate with Sikh from India after a century?


    By the way another article

    DiManno: Is this a dagger I see before me? - thestar.com
     
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  14. Bmandur

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    Incident like last week Friday April2nd," would come when we'll see Kirpan being banned by all civilized societies and countries".
    No amount of shouting and demonstrations and jakaras would be of any help. We being a Sikh worked very hard to get in this society to accept us what we are after 9-11 attacked we have seen how everyone looking at us but Now...
    Even young educated Sikhs themselves would start distancing themselves from those with Kirpans..
    We are educating the children’s what is Sikh & what is Khalsa through our Gurmat Crash courses here in Ontario, what we will say to our children's on our next Gurmat Crash Courses
    Our young Sikhs have already started hating the elements among us who carry themselves as Big GurSikhs with their actions repulsive to civilized society.<?"urn:<img src=" />

    Why can’t they sit together & talk it over why we have to use our Religious Symbol
    Some time I wonder may be whoever is responsible for the incident, using a Kirpan to attack on others May be They want Kirpan to be banned?
    Age 52!!! We have to see why!!! I am sorry to say but these are the facts came in to my mind
    So sad & we should be ashamed of our self.
    Gurfateh
    Binder
     
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    #13 Bmandur, Apr 7, 2010
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  15. spnadmin

    spnadmin United States
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    Bmandur ji

    You hit a serious note as far as I am concerned. When I read the threads cheering the violence and organized action on various web sites I think I am reading the words of adolescents. Only to find out that we are talking about people of age 52 involved in this kind of thing. It is tragic.
     
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  16. Bmandur

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  17. Bmandur

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    Yes you are right age 52 and he did that. I am 54 but I will never do that to attack someone with my Kirpan NO way I was in Tears and I am in Tears
     
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  18. seeker3k

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    I have wrote here about so called Kirpan. It is 6" dagger not a kirpan as what Gobibd Singh gave us then. It is not needed in these time. Sho in the right mind can defend himself or others with 6" knife? It is a stupid ritual that lead us back to brahmanbad. They wear janeue and we wear gatra.

    Go ahead make fool of your self. People are laffing and we dont hear them. What a pitty!!
     
  19. arunjeev

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    Dear friends,

    The abuse of Kirpan a wholly religious symbol of Sikhism for carrying out a murderous attack on an unarmed person is heinous crime not against the law of the land but also against the Sikh principles.

    We should isolate such criminal elements in the community so that nobody can take the shelter of a Sikh dress.

    I know such elements had always been making their presence felt in the community, that's why it is the need of the hour to recognize such elements and throw them out of the fold.

    Kind regards

    Arunjeev Singh
    Barrister
    New Zealand
     
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  20. gscheema

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    kirpan is for self defence.but now a days it has become mode of attacking others.According to me this is all due to people who wear kirpan but dont follow basic principles of sikkhism.For them it is just a weapon they dont have any respect for this beautiful gift of our GURU.So khalsa ji make yourself khalis not from outside but also from inside than you will not do these stupid things.:khanda3:
     
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  21. Gurmit Singh

    Gurmit Singh United States
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    Since local Police has been investigating this incident, witnesses should come
    forward and share the evidence against the culprits. Stern action should be
    taken against such hooligans. At the same time, the Sikh Diaspora should
    not be cowed down by the agents of Pujaris such as Taksaalis, AkJ, Babbars,
    SSF, Nihangs and the like. Their Names and Addresses should be reported to
    the respective Police Stations so that they keep en eye on their treacherous activities.

    Thanks,


    Gurmit Singh (Australia)
     
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